[NSRCA-discussion] Arming device

Sun May 17 11:57:22 AKDT 2015

I CD one contest per year. Next year I will publish that arming switch will
be required to participate in the contest.   I believe this is a good
start.

On Sunday, May 17, 2015, John Fuqua via NSRCA-discussion <
nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

> The RCA Contest Board in the past has suggested to AMA  that they come up
> with an AMA position on this whole area.   The answer we always got back
> was AMA wanted each discipline to come up with their own set of safety
> rules.    Reason being the differences between the various events/model
> types.   e.g.  What is appropriate for 48 -50 volts may not be needed for
> 3.7 volts.
>
>
>
> *From:* NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org');>]
> *On Behalf Of *Jim Woodward via NSRCA-discussion
> *Sent:* Sunday, May 17, 2015 10:30 AM
> *To:* Ronald Van Putte; General pattern discussion
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming device
>
>
>
> 10+ years of electric pattern flying, a million sport pilots hap hazardly
> flying electric, and there is no AMA position in this?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On May 17, 2015, at 9:57 AM, Ronald Van Putte via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org');>> wrote:
>
> +2
>
>
>
> On May 17, 2015, at 8:53 AM, Derek Koopowitz via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org');>> wrote:
>
>
>
> +1
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>
> On May 17, 2015, at 9:37 AM, John Ford via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org');>> wrote:
>
> Well, I figured I would stay away from this discussion, but it scares the
> crap out of me so maybe I can scare the crap out of someone else and take
> the discussion in a different direction that could produce results…
>
>
>
> Rest assured, I won't even debate the merits of widgets…I won't argue in
> favor or against arming switches, failsafes, or anything else…how about
> that?
>
>
>
> So, from the perspective of someone who has managed (or tried to
> manage...) risk in professional settings for many years, here is how I see
> this whole debate and what, frankly, scares me…
>
>
>
> If you put yourself in the shoes of a spectator reading this year-long
> discussion thread, there is one thing that everyone seems to agree on…that
> an electric pattern plane sitting in the pits by itself is a "loaded gun".
> On that point, there seems to be universal agreement.
>
> The heated debate in this thread is about how to make that plane safe from
> inadvertent starts and causing damage or injury. I think we all agree on
> that. Simple enough.
>
>
>
> Now put yourself in the shoes of the lawyer who is working for the spouse
> of a pattern flier who bled to death before the ambulance could arrive at
> the contest site, because the prop sliced his femoral artery while he was
> squatting in front of the plane, while installing the canopy.
>
> The lawyer's case is pretty much made for him, isn't it? A known hazard,
> surrounded by 25 pilots (or at least one designated caller) all belonging
> to an organization that have established in 4156 emails that the hazard was
> real and present..all of whom neglected to restrain or mitigate the known
> hazard in any way. All of these people, whilst assuming the pilot had some
> sort of lock-out device in place, made no effort to determine if it was
> adequate or even installed correctly. And even if it had been, all these
> people are involved in a debate about the validity of such devices and have
> been unsuccessful in establishing a universal practice. Yet, they took no
> mitigating actions in the mean time, leading up to the fatality.
>
>
>
> So, I was at a contest yesterday, and I was asked to call for a pilot. If
> he asks me prior to putting the battery in the aircraft, I always hold the
> plane while he does it. When I set the plane on the centerline, I always
> look to him to signal me to let it go. When I return the plane to the pits,
> I always inform the pilot verbally that the plane is still armed and I wait
> until he disconnects stuff physically so I can see it, then I get up and
> walk away. I really don't care what failsafe, interlock, or widget he uses
> to disarm the plane electronically…I wanna see some sort of physical broken
> connection before I feel my personal responsibility ends.
>
> I've had several pilots say to me.."ok, John, I disarmed it already…it's
> OK"… NO, it's not OK! Not until I can see the physical disconnect.
>
>
>
> When you ask me to call for you, and you ask me to handle a 5-hp, 80 mph
> meat-cutter in the middle of a crowd of 30 people…I feel deeply responsible
> for IT, for YOU, and for ALL the pilots on the line. I WILL insist on you
> showing me that this thing is physically disarmed, or else you can find
> another caller…it's that simple.
>
>
>
> See, I promised I wouldn't discuss widgets…I didn't even tell you how mine
> is set up. But, did I scare the crap out of you?
>
>
>
> Out of the box…
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On May 16, 2015, at 11:43 PM, John Gayer via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org');>> wrote:
>
>
>
> You need to have the motor at least idling before turning the transmitter
> off. The test should prove that failsafe will stop the motor and is not
> just a throttle hold.
> John
>
> On 5/16/2015 4:55 PM, David Harmon via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
>
> With as much talk that has gone on and on andonandonandonandon about this
>
> arming device......puff..puff....not much percentage.
>
> Especially when it is so easy to check.....
>
> Before the first takeoff of each pilot on the first round....the helper
>
> holds the plane off the ground and the pilot turns off the transmitter.
>
> The judges can verify that the motor does not start.
>
> Easy....no drama.
>
>
>
> Oh wait....this was never done with glow....but I HAVE seen several guys
>
> chawed up by a howling YS.
>
> One time a guys airplane chased him in a circle as he was trying to catch
>
> it...he had one leg in front of one wing and for an old guy he moved pretty
>
> quick.
>
> I can't describe how long I laughed about that incident.
>
>
>
> In the end....my opinion is checking the fail-safe function should be a must
>
> at each contest.
>
>
>
> David Harmon
>
> Sperry, OK
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org');>] On
>
> Behalf Of Ron Van Putte via NSRCA-discussion
>
> Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2015 4:58 PM
>
> To: General pattern discussion
>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming device
>
>
>
> I have seen too many situations where an ID10T error caused serious damage
>
> that would have been precluded by the use of a shorting plug.
>
>
>
> What percentage of pilots’ transmitters would fail the fail safe test?
>
> Anybody?
>
>
>
> Ron Van Putte
>
>
>
> On May 16, 2015, at 4:08 PM, Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion
>
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org');> wrote:
>
>
>
> Seems like we have to many people with to much time on their hands sitting
>
> around fantasizing about what might happen if .... Really.... if u cant
>
> control the aircraft in all aspects then u prolly shouldn't have one... Let
>
> alone legislate what i need to be doing with mine...
>
> Gary
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> On May 16, 2015, at 3:58 PM, Jon Lowe via NSRCA-discussion
>
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org');> wrote:
>
> Code doesn't apply to model airplanes.  Cars do not disconnect the
>
> battery, except on race cars with a disconnect switch in case of a wreck.
>
> Normal road cars do not, and modern cars leave a lot of things connected
>
> when the ignition is off.  A lot of cars have underhood fans that run for
>
> awhile after the car is shut off.
>
> If this was a big issue, AMA would address it with all model aircraft,
>
> not just pattern. Electric is common in helis, controline, etc. We are over
>
> killing this something awful.
>
> Jon
>
>
>
> On May 16, 2015 2:11 PM, Vicente Bortone via NSRCA-discussion
>
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org');> wrote:
>
> the ignition switch.
>
>
>
> On Saturday, May 16, 2015, Vicente Bortone <vincebrc at gmail.com> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','vincebrc at gmail.com');> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Saturday, May 16, 2015, Del R via NSRCA-discussion
>
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org');> wrote:
>
> The nice thing about being brought up around GUNS.. It teaches
>
> people to respect it always as though it is loaded and cocked
>
> ready to deliver its physical life altering energy!!!.. < tic >
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: David Cook via NSRCA-discussion
>
> To: Jim Woodward ; General pattern discussion
>
> Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2015 10:48 AM
>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming device
>
>
>
> Just to open the can of worms from the other end.
>
> Now that I have seen the damage a runaway can do to a pool table even
>
> with an external arming device, I have begun to make it a common practice to
>
> remove the prop from the electric planes any time I am not at the field
>
> flying. Store the ammunition and the pin under two different locks. How easy
>
> is it to be careless in the shop or transporting a plane. This thread could
>
> just explode with stories of mishaps we have made or come way too close to.
>
> You just can't be too carful with these things!!!
>
> DC
>
>
>
> On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Jim Woodward via NSRCA-discussion
>
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org');> wrote:
>
> ... Going electric induces a mental physchosis that requires
>
> everyone else to switch, then go and change the rules for glow
>
> :)
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> On May 16, 2015, at 9:38 AM, Keith Hoard via NSRCA-discussion
>
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org');> wrote:
>
> I think the YS guys should have their caller remove the fuel tank
>
> and glow plug before picking up the plane and exiting the runway  . . .
>
> From: NSRCA-discussion
>
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org');>] On Behalf Of
>
> precisionaero via NSRCA-discussion
>
> Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2015 8:38 AM
>
> To: General pattern discussion
>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming device
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I think we should reconfigure a YS engine to drive a generator to
>
> supply electricity to the electric motor.
>
>
>
> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
>
>
>
> From: Peter Vogel via NSRCA-discussion
>
>
>
> Date:05/16/2015 09:31 (GMT-05:00)
>
>
>
> To: General pattern discussion , ronlock at comcast.net <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','ronlock at comcast.net');>, David
>
>
>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming device
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I think we're all in agreement, which is why the rules proposal we
>
> put forth requires a *physical* break in the circuit!
>
> Sent from Outlook
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 6:16 AM -0700, "ronlock--- via
>
> NSRCA-discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org');> wrote:
>
> I'm in agreement.
>
>
>
> Ron Lockhart
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>
>
> From: "David via NSRCA-discussion"
>
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org');>
>
> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org');>
>
> Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2015 1:14:21 AM
>
> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming device
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I'm not trying to bring up a sore subject but this has been
>
> bugging me since it was up a while back. I am the senior electronics
>
> technician in the plasma physics department at the University of Wisconsin.
>
> About a third of what I do is make interlock circuits for the Madison
>
> Symmetric Torus. I know that the best way of keeping things safe is to
>
> remove the potential energy from a circuit to keep bad things from
>
> happening. The problem with depending on a circuit such as the emcotec type
>
> of disconnect or to just relying solely on the radio and ESC to keep things
>
> safe is failure modes. You can plan for all different failure types but to
>
> make it a circuit that isn't a lead brick being added to the plane there are
>
> compromises that have to be made. This leads to designing systems that may
>
> deal with only the most common types of failures. For example most common
>
> diodes and tantalum capacitors usually fail in a shorted mode, but not
>
> always. Many carbon resistors will decrease in résistance just prior to
>
> opening up. You get the idea, there are just so many possibilities and
>
> combinations that in my opinion the only real way to safe a power system is
>
> to disconnect the energy source. Ok, now I feel better that I said
>
> something.
>
> David
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
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> ________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
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>
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
> --
>
> Vicente "Vince" Bortone
>
> --
>
> Vicente "Vince" Bortone
>
> _______________________________________________
>
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-- 
Vicente "Vince" Bortone
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