[NSRCA-discussion] Questions for the experts on Intermediate stall turn quarter roll up and down.

[Atwood, Mark]

Agree that there should be one description of an actual stall turn, but I think the point of contention here, and the focus, should be on the word “Pitch”.   If there is a wind correction that requires a pitch change (i.e. a wind that requires the plane to pitch into wind rather than yaw) then the plane must pass through vertical (with regard to pitch) at the top of the stall in order to properly wind correct following the stall.     Yaw corrections do not have this same physical criteria, as the yaw will simply require a less than 180 rotation to maintain the wind correction.

It’s hard to describe, but easy to see if demonstrated with a stick plane.


Mark Atwood
Paragon Consulting, Inc.  |  President
5900 Landerbrook Drive Suite 205, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
Direct: 440.229.2502 |  Fax: 440.684.3102
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On Mar 30, 2015, at 12:12 PM, James Hiller via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:

Yes, I had similar thoughts but repetition can help with retention.
Jim

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John Fuqua via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 5:40 AM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Questions for the experts on Intermediate stall turn quarter roll up and down.

Which raises the question as to why we must have maneuver descriptions for every class when we should have one set of maneuver descriptions for all classes.    Such an approach would solve the inconsistencies between classes !!!!    Same for downgrades.   We do not change downgrades for the same maneuver used in multiple classes.

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Don Ramsey via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 7:29 AM
To: tocdon at netscape.net<mailto:tocdon at netscape.net>; 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Questions for the experts on Intermediate stall turn quarter roll up and down.

Don,
I understand this was a question at the 2011 WC in the judging seminar. The presenter instructed the judges that the model must be vertical in attitude when the stall turn occurs (any wind correction must be removed). In 2013 this was reversed and the wind corrected attitude at rotation was correct. This may have come from that.

There are inconsistencies in the descriptions for the classes.

Sportsman
• Model track not vertical at start and finish of stall turn.
This indicates the wind corrected attitude is held when the stall turn occurs.

Intermediate
• Model not pitched to vertical at start and finish of stall turn.
This wording seems to be a problem or the question would not have been asked.

Advanced
• Model heading not vertical at start and finish of stall turn.
Seems to indicate the wind correction must be removed for the stall turn.  A different wording but would seem to indicate the same criteria as the Intermediate stall turn.

Masters
No mention of attitude at rotation.

The Competition Regulations say the track should be vertical. To me, that says the attitude of the model should change as it slows if there is a strong crosswind. The speed of the model determines the wind correction for a vertical track.  From experience I can tell you this will not score well in Masters when you are being judged by FAI pilots. By far the best scores will be received if you establish a wind corrected vertical track on entry and maintain that attitude until rotation.  That should be considered for the next cycle of descriptions.

The judging committee should address this as the criteria seems to be different for the classes.


From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Don Szczur via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 7:15 PM
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Questions for the experts on Intermediate stall turn quarter roll up and down.


A question came up at the judging seminar.  The listed downgrades for this maneuver state:

Model not level at start and finish.

• Upline and downline tracks are not vertical.

• Model not pitched to vertical at start and finish of stall turn.

• Return path not parallel to entry path.

• Pivot radius greater than 1/2 wingspan.

• Pendulum movement after stall.

• Loop segments not round with same size and radius.

• Rolls not centered on vertical tracks.

• Under or over rotation of roll elements. Apply “One Point per 15 Degree Rule”.

• Entry and exit altitudes not the same.

• Vertical track not on center.

What exactly is meant by "Model not pitched to vertical at start and finish of stall turn".  It appears to mean that the pitch must be straightened from a wind corrected attitude (vertical attitude of the fuselage), however this downgrade is not listed for other stall turns maneuvers within the sequence, giving the impression it is unique to this maneuver.

Thanks,

Don

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