[NSRCA-discussion] Electronic Score Entry System - Thoughts

atwooddon at aol.com atwooddon at aol.com
Mon Jun 8 13:32:56 AKDT 2015


What Mark A didn't tell you is you need a 'Viewing Ticket' that you can only get from Peter if you want to congregate around the monitor showing scores immediately after a pilot's flight...  Kinda like a back stage pass....  

Just kidding, we have had the luxury of using this system here in District 7 as it has been developed.  I hate the thought of ever going back to manual entry and waiting for printouts!!

Don

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: W Anthony Abdullah via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
To: Peter Vogel <vogel.peter at gmail.com>; General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Mon, Jun 8, 2015 2:25 pm
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic Score Entry System - Thoughts


 
Wow!  
 
  
 
 
It sounds amazing, can't wait to see it in person.  
 
  
Sent from my iPad 
 
  
On Jun 8, 2015, at 4:54 PM, Peter Vogel via NSRCA-discussion <  nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:  
  
 
 
  
   
Part of the kit I bring along stands up a LOCAL WiFi, I do not depend on a cellular connection at all, if I have a decent connection I'll publish scores live as they happen to     https://www.patternscoring.com but for the actual operation of a contest I don't need anything.  Just the local WiFi I stand up.    
     
    
    
Peter+    
   
   
    
    
On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 1:37 PM, S. McNickle      <nelson_jett at comcast.net> wrote:     
     
      
       
        
Does the system require a WiFi connection or a strong cell connection to work?        
        
         
        
        
         
        
        
        
         From: "Peter Vogel via NSRCA-discussion" <         nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>         
         To: "Mark Atwood" <         atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>, "General pattern discussion" <         nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>         
         Sent: Monday, June 8, 2015 12:42:07 PM         
         Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic Score Entry System - Thoughts         
          
           
           
            
           
           
Thanks Mark!  It's been a lot of work, but notes like yours make it all worthwhile!            
             
            
            
Thrilled to be able to contribute back to the sport I love!            
            
             
            
            
Peter+            
           
           
            
            
On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 8:36 AM, Atwood, Mark via NSRCA-discussion              <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:             
             
              
See if this is any better….  Straight text.               
                
               
               
                
I had the privilege this weekend of using Peter Vogel’s new electronic score entry system this weekend.  I don’t want to call it a scoring system because that credit should still go to Scott Smith whose scoring program is what Peter’s system is integrated with.  Both of these gentleman have put in 100’s if not 1000’s of hours of programming into this effort.                  
                
                 
                
                
                 And it’s fantastic.                
                
                 
                
                
                 So some thoughts about new score entry system in no particular order.                  
                  
 
                  
1)            It works.  Period.   End of story.   25 guys who had never touched it before not only learned it, but used it efficiently with a 5 minute intro and sitting down and scoring a demo flight.   ZERO missed maneuvers, no lost scores, no complaints. NADA.
                  
2)            The system actually uses downgrade scoring.  I.e. you click the 1/2pt (or full pt) down everytime you see a downgrade.  It takes practice flight before you realize that you need to click on everything you see…rather than do mental math or create a perception of the maneuver, but once you do, it’s enlightening.
                  
3)            The score range widens.   This is a good thing.  It wasn’t drastic, but rather than a long diatribe of 7’s and 8’s, if you go look at the score sheets (I highly suggest surfing through the www.patternscoring.com site) you’ll see many score sheets that feature both 5’s and 10’s on the same page.
                  
4)            More 10’s.  If you don’t see a downgrade…that 10 is just sitting there.  There’s no longer the pressure to write down a 9 simply because “no one actually flies a 10”.
                  
5)            Long complex maneuvers (hour glass for example) get the pounding they deserve.  The opportunity for downgrades in these maneuvers is massive…and when the judge is just clicking away, well… we get hammered.  And we should.   Every missed angle, every missed radius,  the over cooked snap, etc etc.    Your 7 just became a 4.5  
                  
6)            Surprisingly consistent judging between both judges on the line.  Shockingly consistent actually.   I consider that another endorsement for the system.
                  
7)            More engaged judging.  This was big for me.  I personally feel like I start to glaze over after the 8th (or worse …18th) Masters flight in a contest.  It’s very hard to stay consistent and stay alert and not revert to perception judging in the old paper and pencil format.   This eliminated that completely.  You’re actively engaged throughout each maneuver and each flight.  Both physically recording downgrades and watching intently for them.  I felt it was MUCH easier to be a good judge and an alert judge.
                  
8)            Every maneuver called out loud for the judge, for every pilot, for every round.  This made judging the new sequences, which I hadn’t judged yet, simple.
                  
9)            You never need to look down from the plane.  Really.   Never.     What’s interesting here is that you begin to notice all the downgrades that occur in the transition between manuevers.  No more free fixes!
                  
10)          It seems to greatly reduce or even eliminate the influence that the prior maneuver has on the scores.  I know this shouldn’t be the case… but we all know it is.  Someone that’s flown a train wreck of 6’s  suddenly flies a clean Split S turn and think “wow…that was pretty good…8”.  On this system you’re just clicking downgrades…that same Split S just scored a 10.  As it should have.
                  
11)          Your scores are up on the big screen, normalized to whom ever has already flown that round, before your plane rolls to a stop. Literally.    And if you’re up first?? Well, take a picture because for the moment… you’re winning!
                  
In summary, this will be the single biggest advancement in scoring for pattern since the introduction of normalization.    It’s going to take a year or two to get everyone in the country familiar with the system (and get systems purchased for use) before we can use it at a Nats, but we’ll get there, and quickly.  I was extremely skeptical, for about 5 minutes.  
                  
 
                  
You’ll fear it.  You’ll use it.  You’ll love it.
                  
 ‘nuff said. 
                  
Well done Peter.  Very well done.
                  
 
                  
-Mark
                 
                
                
                 
                  
                   
                    
                     
                      
                       
                        
                         
                          MARK                           ATWOOD                         
                         
                          
                           
                            President                           
                           
                            o.  (440) 229-2502                           
                           
                            c.  (216) 316-2489                           
                           
                            e.                              atwoodm at paragon-inc.com                           
                           
                            
                           
                           
                            Paragon Consulting, Inc.                                                       
                           
                            5900 Landerbrook Drive, Suite 205, Cleveland Ohio, 44124                           
                           
                            www.paragon-inc.com                           
                           
                                                        
                           
                            
                           
                           
                            Powering The Digital Experience                           
                          
                         
                        
                       
                      
                     
                    
                   
                  
                 
                
                
                 
                 
                  
                   
On Jun 8, 2015, at 11:34 AM, Atwood, Mark via NSRCA-discussion <                    nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:                   
                   
                   
                    
What the Heck???                     
                      
                     
                     
Mine didn’t come through that way at all!!  Sorry guys…  I’ll see if I can repost it cleaner.                     
                     
                      
                     
                     
                      
                      
                       
                        
                         
                          
                           
                            
                             
                              
                               
                                MARK                                 ATWOOD                               
                               
                                
                                 
                                  President                                 
                                 
                                  o.  (440) 229-2502                                 
                                 
                                  c.  (216) 316-2489                                 
                                 
                                  e.                                    atwoodm at paragon-inc.com                                 
                                 
                                  
                                 
                                 
                                  Paragon Consulting, Inc.                                                                   
                                 
                                  5900 Landerbrook Drive, Suite 205, Cleveland Ohio, 44124                                 
                                 
                                  www.paragon-inc.com                                 
                                 
                                                                    
                                 
                                  
                                 
                                 
                                  Powering The Digital Experience                                 
                                
                               
                              
                             
                            
                           
                          
                         
                        
                       
                      
                      
                      
                       
On Jun 8, 2015, at 11:31 AM, Anthony Romano via NSRCA-discussion <                        nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:                       
                       
                       
                        
                         
+1                          
                           
                          
                          
If you fumble through all of the weird format issues with Mark's email there is a lot of great comments there and just about everyone will agree with every one. I was asked many time when is our district going to buy one.                          
                          
                           
                          
                          
Anthony                           
                            
                           
                            
To:                             nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org                            
 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 15:25:33 +0000                            
 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic Score Entry System - Thoughts                            
 From:                             nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org                            
                             
                             
                            
I had the privilege this weekend of using Peter Vogel’s new electronic score entry system this weekend.  I don’t want to call it a scoring system because that credit should still go to Scott Smith whose scoring program is what Peter’s system is integrated with.  Both of these gentleman have put in 100’s if not 1000’s of hours of programming into this effort.                              
                            
                             
                            
                            
                             And it’s fantastic.                            
                            
                             
                            
                            
So some thoughts about new score entry system in no particular order.                             
                              
                               
                                 
                               
                               
cussion at lists.nsrca.org
 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 15:25:33 +0000
 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic Score Entry System - Thoughts
 From: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
 
 

                               
I had the privilege this weekend of using Peter Vogel’s new electronic score entry system this weekend.  I don’t want to call it a scoring system because that credit should still go to Scott Smith whose scoring program is what Peter’s system is integrated with.  Both of these gentleman have put in 100’s if not 1000’s of hours of programming into this effort.                                 
                               
                                
                               
                               
                                And it’s fantastic.                               
                               
                                
                               
                               
So some thoughts about new score entry system in no particular order.                                
                                 
                                  
                                    
                                  
                                  
1)            It works.  Period.   End of story.   25 guys who had never touched it before not only learned it, but used it efficiently with a 5 minute intro and sitting down and scoring a demo flight.   ZERO missed maneuvers, no lost scores, no complaints. NADA.
                                  
cussion at lists.nsrca.org
 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 15:25:33 +0000
 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic Score Entry System - Thoughts
 From: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
 
 

                                  
I had the privilege this weekend of using Peter Vogel’s new electronic score entry system this weekend.  I don’t want to call it a scoring system because that credit should still go to Scott Smith whose scoring program is what Peter’s system is integrated with.  Both of these gentleman have put in 100’s if not 1000’s of hours of programming into this effort.                                    
                                  
                                   
                                  
                                  
                                   And it’s fantastic.                                  
                                  
                                   
                                  
                                  
So some thoughts about new score entry system in no particular order.                                   
                                    
                                     
                                       
                                     
                                     
1)            The system actually uses downgrade scoring.  I.e. you click the 1/2pt (or full pt) down everytime you see a downgrade.  It takes practice flight before you realize that you need to click on everything you see…rather than do mental math or create a perception of the maneuver, but once you do, it’s enlightening.
                                     
cussion at lists.nsrca.org
 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 15:25:33 +0000
 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic Score Entry System - Thoughts
 From: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
 
 

                                     
I had the privilege this weekend of using Peter Vogel’s new electronic score entry system this weekend.  I don’t want to call it a scoring system because that credit should still go to Scott Smith whose scoring program is what Peter’s system is integrated with.  Both of these gentleman have put in 100’s if not 1000’s of hours of programming into this effort.                                       
                                     
                                      
                                     
                                     
                                      And it’s fantastic.                                     
                                     
                                      
                                     
                                     
So some thoughts about new score entry system in no particular order.                                      
                                       
                                        
                                          
                                        
                                        
1)            The score range widens.   This is a good thing.  It wasn’t drastic, but rather than a long diatribe of 7’s and 8’s, if you go look at the score sheets (I highly suggest surfing through the www.patternscoring.com site) you’ll see many score sheets that feature both 5’s and 10’s on the same page.
                                        
cussion at lists.nsrca.org
 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 15:25:33 +0000
 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic Score Entry System - Thoughts
 From: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
 
 

                                        
I had the privilege this weekend of using Peter Vogel’s new electronic score entry system this weekend.  I don’t want to call it a scoring system because that credit should still go to Scott Smith whose scoring program is what Peter’s system is integrated with.  Both of these gentleman have put in 100’s if not 1000’s of hours of programming into this effort.                                          
                                        
                                         
                                        
                                        
                                         And it’s fantastic.                                        
                                        
                                         
                                        
                                        
So some thoughts about new score entry system in no particular order.                                         
                                          
                                           
                                             
                                           
                                           
1)            More 10’s.  If you don’t see a downgrade…that 10 is just sitting there.  There’s no longer the pressure to write down a 9 simply because “no one actually flies a 10”.
                                           
cussion at lists.nsrca.org
 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 15:25:33 +0000
 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic Score Entry System - Thoughts
 From: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
 
 

                                           
I had the privilege this weekend of using Peter Vogel’s new electronic score entry system this weekend.  I don’t want to call it a scoring system because that credit should still go to Scott Smith whose scoring program is what Peter’s system is integrated with.  Both of these gentleman have put in 100’s if not 1000’s of hours of programming into this effort.                                             
                                           
                                            
                                           
                                           
                                            And it’s fantastic.                                           
                                           
                                            
                                           
                                           
So some thoughts about new score entry system in no particular order.                                            
                                             
                                              
                                                
                                              
                                              
1)            Long complex maneuvers (hour glass for example) get the pounding they deserve.  The opportunity for downgrades in these maneuvers is massive…and when the judge is just clicking away, well… we get hammered.  And we should.   Every missed angle, every missed radius,  the over cooked snap, etc etc.    Your 7 just became a 4.5  
                                              
cussion at lists.nsrca.org
 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 15:25:33 +0000
 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic Score Entry System - Thoughts
 From: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
 
 

                                              
I had the privilege this weekend of using Peter Vogel’s new electronic score entry system this weekend.  I don’t want to call it a scoring system because that credit should still go to Scott Smith whose scoring program is what Peter’s system is integrated with.  Both of these gentleman have put in 100’s if not 1000’s of hours of programming into this effort.                                                
                                              
                                               
                                              
                                              
                                               And it’s fantastic.                                              
                                              
                                               
                                              
                                              
So some thoughts about new score entry system in no particular order.                                               
                                                
                                                 
                                                   
                                                 
                                                 
1)            Surprisingly consistent judging between both judges on the line.  Shockingly consistent actually.   I consider that another endorsement for the system.
                                                 
cussion at lists.nsrca.org
 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 15:25:33 +0000
 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic Score Entry System - Thoughts
 From: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
 
 

                                                 
I had the privilege this weekend of using Peter Vogel’s new electronic score entry system this weekend.  I don’t want to call it a scoring system because that credit should still go to Scott Smith whose scoring program is what Peter’s system is integrated with.  Both of these gentleman have put in 100’s if not 1000’s of hours of programming into this effort.                                                   
                                                 
                                                  
                                                 
                                                 
                                                  And it’s fantastic.                                                 
                                                 
                                                  
                                                 
                                                 
So some thoughts about new score entry system in no particular order.                                                  
                                                   
                                                    
                                                      
                                                    
                                                    
1)            More engaged judging.  This was big for me.  I personally feel like I start to glaze over after the 8th (or worse …18th) Masters flight in a contest.  It’s very hard to stay consistent and stay alert and not revert to perception judging in the old paper and pencil format.   This eliminated that completely.  You’re actively engaged throughout each maneuver and each flight.  Both physically recording downgrades and watching intently for them.  I felt it was MUCH easier to be a good judge and an alert judge.
                                                    
cussion at lists.nsrca.org
 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 15:25:33 +0000
 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic Score Entry System - Thoughts
 From: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
 
 

                                                    
I had the privilege this weekend of using Peter Vogel’s new electronic score entry system this weekend.  I don’t want to call it a scoring system because that credit should still go to Scott Smith whose scoring program is what Peter’s system is integrated with.  Both of these gentleman have put in 100’s if not 1000’s of hours of programming into this effort.                                                      
                                                    
                                                     
                                                    
                                                    
                                                     And it’s fantastic.                                                    
                                                    
                                                     
                                                    
                                                    
So some thoughts about new score entry system in no particular order.                                                     
                                                      
                                                       
                                                         
                                                       
                                                       
1)            Every maneuver called out loud for the judge, for every pilot, for every round.  This made judging the new sequences, which I hadn’t judged yet, simple.
                                                       
cussion at lists.nsrca.org
 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 15:25:33 +0000
 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic Score Entry System - Thoughts
 From: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
 
 

                                                       
I had the privilege this weekend of using Peter Vogel’s new electronic score entry system this weekend.  I don’t want to call it a scoring system because that credit should still go to Scott Smith whose scoring program is what Peter’s system is integrated with.  Both of these gentleman have put in 100’s if not 1000’s of hours of programming into this effort.                                                         
                                                       
                                                        
                                                       
                                                       
                                                        And it’s fantastic.                                                       
                                                       
                                                        
                                                       
                                                       
So some thoughts about new score entry system in no particular order.                                                        
                                                         
                                                          
                                                            
                                                          
                                                          
1)            You never need to look down from the plane.  Really.   Never.     What’s interesting here is that you begin to notice all the downgrades that occur in the transition between manuevers.  No more free fixes!
                                                          
cussion at lists.nsrca.org
 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 15:25:33 +0000
 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic Score Entry System - Thoughts
 From: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
 
 

                                                          
I had the privilege this weekend of using Peter Vogel’s new electronic score entry system this weekend.  I don’t want to call it a scoring system because that credit should still go to Scott Smith whose scoring program is what Peter’s system is integrated with.  Both of these gentleman have put in 100’s if not 1000’s of hours of programming into this effort.                                                            
                                                          
                                                           
                                                          
                                                          
                                                           And it’s fantastic.                                                          
                                                          
                                                           
                                                          
                                                          
So some thoughts about new score entry system in no particular order.                                                           
                                                            
                                                             
                                                               
                                                             
                                                             
1)             It seems to greatly reduce or even eliminate the influence that the prior maneuver has on the scores.  I know this shouldn’t be the case… but we all know it is.  Someone that’s flown a train wreck of 6’s  suddenly flies a clean Split S turn and think “wow…that was pretty good…8”.  On this system you’re just clicking downgrades…that same Split S just scored a 10.  As it should have.
                                                             
11)          Your scores are up on the big screen, normalized to whom ever has already flown that round, before your plane rolls to a stop. Literally.    And if you’re up first?? Well, take a picture because for the moment… you’re winning!
                                                             
In summary, this will be the single biggest advancement in scoring for pattern since the introduction of normalization.    It’s going to take a year or two to get everyone in the country familiar with the system (and get systems purchased for use) before we can use it at a Nats, but we’ll get there, and quickly.  I was extremely skeptical, for about 5 minutes.  
                                                             
                                                               
                                                             
                                                             
You’ll fear it.  You’ll use it.  You’ll love it.
                                                             
 ‘nuff said. 
                                                             
Well done Peter.  Very well done.
                                                             
                                                               
                                                             
                                                             
-Mark
                                                             
                                                              
                                                               
                                                                
                                                                 
                                                                  
                                                                   
                                                                    
                                                                     
                                                                      
                                                                       MARK                                                                        ATWOOD                                                                      
                                                                      
                                                                       
                                                                        
                                                                         President                                                                        
                                                                        
                                                                         o.  (440) 229-2502                                                                        
                                                                        
                                                                         c.  (216) 316-2489                                                                        
                                                                        
                                                                         e.                                                                           atwoodm at paragon-inc.com                                                                        
                                                                        
                                                                         
                                                                        
                                                                        
                                                                         Paragon Consulting, Inc.                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                        
                                                                         5900 Landerbrook Drive, Suite 205, Cleveland Ohio, 44124                                                                        
                                                                        
                                                                         www.paragon-inc.com                                                                        
                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                        
                                                                         
                                                                        
                                                                        
                                                                         Powering The Digital Experience                                                                        
                                                                       
                                                                      
                                                                     
                                                                    
                                                                   
                                                                  
                                                                 
                                                                
                                                               
                                                              
                                                             
                                                             
                                                            
                                                           
                                                          
                                                          
                                                           
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--             
            
             
              
Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training              
              
Santa Clara County Model Aircraft Skypark              
              
Associate Vice President, Academy of Model Aeronautics District X              
                                          
             
            
           
           
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--     
    
     
      
Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training      
      
Santa Clara County Model Aircraft Skypark      
      
Associate Vice President, Academy of Model Aeronautics District X      
                  
     
    
    
   
 
 
  
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