[NSRCA-discussion] FAA Registration begins December 21

Tue Dec 15 12:33:45 AKST 2015

We’ll see where AMA membership is in 2 years if this stands. . . .

From: Wrbirkett [mailto:wrbirkett at gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2015 14:32
To: Atwood, Mark <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>; General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Cc: Keith Hoard <klhoard at outlook.com>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAA Registration begins December 21

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 15, 2015, at 2:20 PM, Atwood, Mark via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> > wrote:

Keith,

I’ll simply say that I think you’re selling our AMA leadership short in the effort that has been put forth to work WITH the FAA and to protect our rights as modelers.  I don’t know how involved you’ve been so I’ll stop short of calling your comments ignorant, but they are clearly both inconsiderate of their efforts and personally attacking… without merit.  

I’ve had no shortage of complaints and disagreements with the AMA over the years, and even with our current leaders (Bob and Dave and board) over various issues.  But I don’t think publicly disparaging their efforts is ever warranted, and on this subject in particular, it’s just erroneous.   They have worked diligently on this effort, including funding lobbying efforts in DC and their results have been quite good.    This is a VERY minor setback and one that they’re working aggressively to mitigate.   The FAA is reacting to public pressure to “do something”, and the voice of 150,000 toy airplane enthusiasts is only going to have so much weight, ESPECIALLY when the reality is…it doesn’t affect us.  Yes, we can scream civil liberties and slippery slope and all the other NRA worries, but it’s toy airplanes.  Those aren’t real worries until people are actually doing damage with our toys.  

Let’s support our AMA.   They’re us.  They’re modelers.  They’re friends.  

Rant over…

-Mark

On Dec 15, 2015, at 2:06 PM, Keith Hoard via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> > wrote:

If the AMA had any ballz they would tell the FAA to go pack sand and budget for their own advertising campaign.  We won't participate in your stupidity, put the word out yourself, and also go ahead and budget to attempt enforcement of 10 million drones. 

But we all know the AMA won't do that, Muncie isn’t exactly a hot bed of employment opportunity so they have to comply to protect those cushy non-profit jobs. 

Let's just hope they fight this as hard as they did the SFA.

--Keith Hoard
-- <mailto:klhoard at outlook.com> klhoard at outlook.com

From:  <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> DaveL322 via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2015 12:34
To:  <mailto:scmcharg at gmail.com> Scott McHarg;  <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> General pattern discussion;  <mailto:jnhiller at earthlink.net> James Hiller
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAA Registration begins December 21

To limit liability, all manufacturers, retailers, and clubs will have to include the new regs with every vehicle and every membership sold/offered.  And of course the rogues that have caused the problems and will continue to cause the problems will not register.

It is the camels nose in the tent, it is the slippery slope, it is yet again another unelected bureaucratic over reach that will accomplish little or nothing other than grow wasteful government and degrade personal liberty.  It will be a tool used by the FAA to characterize all modelers as irresponsible operators causing the problems, and we (the vast majority) will be subject to ever increasingly restrictive (and uneffective) egulations targeted to control the tiny minority.

Regards,

Dave

Please pardon any spelling errors or brevity.....Sent on a Sprint Samsung Galaxy Note® 3

-------- Original message --------
From: Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion < <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 
Date: 12/15/2015 13:05 (GMT-05:00) 
To: James Hiller < <mailto:jnhiller at earthlink.net> jnhiller at earthlink.net>, General pattern discussion < <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAA Registration begins December 21 

My question is.....

Since the FAA has no ability to put something in place at the point of sale and since the FAA cannot make a law and only a rule, how are they going to let all the Best Buy / Radio Shack / Walmart / online store buyers know that they must register?  There are going to be so many new operators out there that have no idea this is happening.  I heard a ridiculous number of the amount of these toys being sold just this Christmas season.  They obviously did not think this through.  Announcement and implementation all in one week.  That's the fastest I've ever seen a bureaucracy work even if it did benefit them. 

Scott A. McHarg

VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot

Texas A&M University

PPL - ASEL

On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 11:56 AM, James Hiller via NSRCA-discussion < <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

Does anyone really believe an outlaw operator is going to put a number on their toy of choice?

Jim 

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto: <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ed Alt via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2015 9:15 AM
To: Dana Beaton
Cc: John Ford; General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAA Registration begins December 21

Dana

The identity theft risk with the FAA number is that if someone places your number on their model and causes property damage or injuries or worse, then the FAA and law enforcement are coming down on your head. 

On Dec 15, 2015, at 8:34 AM, Dana Beaton < <mailto:danamaenia at me.com> danamaenia at me.com> wrote:

Hi Ed, Andy and I joined Buc-Le in Quakertown this week since Farview closed (due to excess turbine traffic outraging the neighbors, having nothing to do with drones or nefarious non-members).  Buc-Le requires that club membership cards, or AMA cards for guests, be placed on the board while we fly.  Many clubs have a system like this.  The LVRCS still does, but we now permit members to wear their membership cards if they don’t want to use the board.  Someone who wants to borrow an identity, copy or steal an AMA card, can just stroll up to the box: No need for someone to help one of us find parts to a downed model, it’s that simple today to grab a name and number of someone who is reputable in the hobby to hide behind.  I have not heard of this happeningso it seems so unlikely, even now with registration coming down the pike.

In the coming compliance environment, the new normal for AMA members, what may mar our hobby is reputable hobbyist pilots NOT registering?  I get that a lot of us are angry at what has transpired, but let’s think through the more probable scenarios and avoid needless troubles for ourselves and clubs.

Decades ago when I was training for my Private Pilot ticket we still had the large registration numbers, N numbers, on general aviation planes.  Every instructor had stories about the one little old lady who called the police every time she saw a low flying aircraft overhead.  While the pilot in question may have been in fact at a legal altitude/separation per the FARs, that did not stop those nuisance calls.  When the police came to ask around in these stories, nothing ever came of the complaints as the pilots, operators, etc. all had their documents in order and were flying responsibly.  Just crank calls that burdened the cops, resulting no problems for the flight school.  What I am getting at is if and when our neighbor calls around about activity at our clubs, should the locals come around asking, we will have all our documents in order.  If asked, like John suggests, we can produce registration.  End of story.  

OTOH, if neighbors complain and local authorities cannot establish that club members are operating within guidelines, there could be more questions than the situation would otherwise merit.  That is the more likely scenario in my mind than bad actors stealing my identity to fly drones badly.  We might want to worry more about the mundane stuff like that than the more elaborate scenarios?

Respectfully/anonymously (LOL),

Dana

On Dec 15, 2015, at 8:01 AM, Ed Alt via NSRCA-discussion < <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

That should work for the most part.  Don't ever let anyone help you look for a lost/crashed model I guess.  There are still complications for various scenarios, such as for anyone who wants to teach a student to fly etc.  

<27B2484C95EE419C9457784BA2057328.png>

From:  <mailto:jsf106 at gmail.com> jsf106 at gmail.com
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAA Registration begins December 21
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 07:37:04 -0500
CC:  <mailto:ed_alt at hotmail.com> ed_alt at hotmail.com
To:  <mailto:mark.grabowski at comcast.net> mark.grabowski at comcast.net;  <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org

On my plane, the number will be accessible without tools, per the rule, but unless asked by an FAA official, I'm not offering to show where it is to anyone. 

I need to have my registration with me, and I will, but no one gets to see it. As the rule says, this is between me and the FAA. 

Not up to the clubs or the AMA to police individuals on behalf of the FAA, so identity theft should not be a problem. 

John

On Dec 15, 2015, at 7:12 AM, Comcast via NSRCA-discussion < <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

Been thinking the very same thing. Someone steals a user number, does something stupid and then there's a knock at my door. Without a great alibi what are you gonna do???

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 15, 2015, at 5:23 AM, Ed Alt via NSRCA-discussion < <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

Speaking of use cases, perhaps I missed it in the flurry of emails yesterday, but has anyone thought about the identity theft risk that the FAA is creating?  By registering the pilot and not having unique identification numbers for each model that are assigned to an owner, it sets up the scenario for anyone else to use your number on their model and cause virtually unlimited problems for you, anywhere, anytime.  To help reduce this risk, at the very least, the numbers would have to be provided by the FAA with some sort of marking, holography, whatever to at least raise the difficulty of identity theft from zero to something above zero.  You can apparently use a felt marker to scribble your own numbers as it stands now. 

Better yet, from an identity theft perspective at least, there should be unique numbers for each model provided to the owner.  This, of course would drive costs way up and incur delays.  

We should put the central planners in charge of every aspect of our lives now, should we not?  They've really shown their true colors on this one.  Incompetent boobs, every last one of them.

<27B2484C95EE419C9457784BA2057328.png>

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 15:53:22 -0800
To:  <mailto:acornacchione at hotmail.com> acornacchione at hotmail.com;  <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAA Registration begins December 21
From:  <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org

Honestly, I think thats one of the use-cases the FAA didn't think through real well...

My belief is that this whole thing is about creating a sense of accountability for the "rogue" users (I'm not willing to give them the term pilot because they don't deserve it) who do stupid shit like flying around a wildfire and preventing Calfire airborne response for 20+ minutes, etc.  It's about dealing with the anti-AMA guys who fly 120+mph EDFs weighing 6+ lbs over an active soccer game at a local park, it's about dealing with the dipshits who fly their drone on the takeoff/approach path of an active full scale airport in hopes of "cool footage".  The AMA field flyers are the least of the FAA's worries and we're blowing it out of proportion.  Yes, it's a stupid regulation, but let's comply where we can and show ourselves to be the responsible modelers the AMA says we are.

For the foreign guys, first of all, sorry for the needless red tape (though I think a similar thing is coming for the BMFA guys in the UK and it would not surprise me to see a more sensible version of this from the Canadian guys).  But if I were CD'ing a contest and some guys came down from the Great White North, I'd happily hook them up with some temporary form of my own registration # to put in their planes for the purposes of flying at the contest because I know them to be responsible pilots.

Peter+

On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Anthony Cornacchione via NSRCA-discussion < <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

Legit question with an unknown answer:  how will this impact international (IMAC Worlds in Muncie 2018) NATS with international competitors (NATS News this year had a nice write up) and our local contests which have had the occasional Canadian wander south?

On Dec 14, 2015, at 6:33 PM, Dana Beaton via NSRCA-discussion < <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

Boaters register their pleasure craft, fishermen & hunters buy licenses, some folks even register their firearms! So what? Are we going to give up our hobby just because of a tiny pice of red tape? Nope! Just keep flying. The bad actors who misuse their aircraft will run afoul local authorities sure enough, that's their problem, not ours.  We need to continue to set the good example though our good flying.  Good flying will carry the day.

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 14, 2015, at 6:25 PM, Dave Burton via NSRCA-discussion < <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

So, just shut up and drink the Kool-Aid?

From: NSRCA-discussion [ <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Derek Koopowitz via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2015 6:15 PM
To: Atwood, Mark; General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAA Registration begins December 21

Yep.... yep... yep.

On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 2:32 PM, Atwood, Mark via NSRCA-discussion < <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

Hasn’t that private information ship already sailed?  We all register cars and think nothing of it.  Heck, we even took classes, got educated, and were tested for a license before we could own or operate a car and we have to renew that every four years and prove we’re still physically capable (minimal proof admittedly).  Personally not sure a gun should be much different but don’t want to start that discussion (especially since I’m generally pro gun…just not pro redneck hill jack survivalist conspiracy theorist) but not registering to fly airplanes?  Really?    We trade more info internationally downloading a Facebook app.    Also, we’re already registered… just with the AMA, not the USA.  And yes, the AMA is trying to make that our ONLY registration, but that’s just a proposal at this point.   

Guys… we already do ALL of this.  Our AMA # is on the plane, we follow safety rules, blah blah blah.  This is a very minor inconvenience and if the AMA proposal to use our AMA# for our registration number it won’t even be that.  

On Dec 14, 2015, at 5:15 PM, Dave Burton via NSRCA-discussion < <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

Now is the time for massive civil disobedience!

I don't think I'd register my planes any more than I'd register my guns.

Too bad AMA has no clout like the NRA.

Dave

From: NSRCA-discussion [ <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Robert L. Beaubien via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2015 1:23 PM
To: Scott McHarg; General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAA Registration begins December 21

Morons at work….

-           Robert Beaubien

-            <http://droneplastics.com/> DronePlastics.com

“Dear Algebra, Please stop asking us to find your X.  She's never coming back and don't ask Y.”

From: NSRCA-discussion [ <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2015 11:05 AM
To: General pattern discussion < <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] FAA Registration begins December 21

Well, here it is boys and girls.  It's official and starts next Monday.  The link is for the FAQ's of what's happening. 

 You only have to register once and you don't have to individually register all of your models.

You must be able to provide proof of registration and have it on you when flying.

You must have your Registration # (not going to be a N number) in your airplane where it is legible and accessible without the use of tools (aka under your canopy).  

If you sell a model, you should update your records. (I don't completely understand this if we aren't registering all of our models individually but, OK)

Registration is $5 but you'll get that back if you register in the first 30 days, I believe.

Have a look at the link and prepare to be upset.....

 <http://www.faa.gov/uas/registration/faqs/> http://www.faa.gov/uas/registration/faqs/

Scott A. McHarg

VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot

Texas A&M University

PPL - ASEL

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