[NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll

Sun Aug 23 09:46:16 AKDT 2015

The slide looks all wrong to me. Looks like a prescribed flight path, not a maneuver, but what do I know, I'm just one of the guys that has to judge it.
Looking forward for clarification!
Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Lockhart via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2015 10:35 AM
To: 'Jas'; 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll

+1

And yet another reason why AMA patterns should not be following FAI.

Regards,

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Jas via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2015 1:30 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll

CPLR came to me on finals day and asked me if I had flown F-17 and how I was doing to barrel roll.  I told him in the 5 flights I had on it that I had done it 5 different ways. He then grabbed a water bottle and showed me a handful of ways he thought to do it (this was before either of us (assumption he didn't either) had seen the PowerPoint slide). All of his interpretations were different from the slide. Now we have something to go on, but we couldn't understand the reason for having this in pattern.

Sent from my iP

> On Aug 23, 2015, at 9:50 AM, Jon Lowe via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> 
> Rant mode on...
> 
> Sigh... Leave it up to FAI to come up with yet another impossible to judge maneuver. The F15 horizontal triangle wasn't enough, so they add the horizontal double immelmann, and now the poorly defined " barrel roll" in 2017. In the case of the barrel roll, the "right" way to do it will be however CPLR interprets it. The rest of the world will copy him, and that will be the defacto standard.
> 
> If FAI would move to half point judging, these ridiculous maneuvers would be unnecessary to separate the top flyers. But that'll never happen.
> 
> ...rant mode off.
> 
> Jon
> 
>> On Aug 23, 2015 8:33 AM, Ed Alt via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Phil:
>> 
>> I couldn't really tell either, so I just tried to fly it with a stick plane.  Take the example that starts with the 45 up line.  I can't see how you would avoid departing upwards from the 45 deg line and simultaneously get the corkscrew shape started unless the maneuver was initiated with simultaneous aileron, rudder and elevator.   I think the rudder has to be enough to immediately skid the model and start bringing the nose down as positive pitch input helps get the corkscrew angle set.  I guess I'll try just for fun later today.
>> 
>> Ed
>> 
>> ________________________________
>> Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 13:15:14 +0000
>> From: chuenkan at comcast.net
>> To: ed_alt at hotmail.com; nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll
>> 
>> If FAI/NSCRA have come up with a new definition of a barrel roll, then I can't be of any help.  However, to do a "regular" old barrel roll, just do what my aerobatics student does:  He is trying to learn to do 3 Horizontal Rolls (the "3 horribles).  He can do one axial roll beautifully; he can often get 2 pretty good ones; but 3???  He gets the elevator miss-timed and does a very good barrel roll.  So, the idea of adding elevator (plus maybe some rudder) should produce a barrel roll -- but I don't know if it would fit the NSRCA definition if said roll.  >From the posts, I can't tell what is required.  Ah, yes, I love teaching -- that's why I gave up college tenure and went to do laboratory research.  lol
>> 
>> Phil Spelt, KCRC Emeritus, Secretary
>> AMA 1294, Scientific Leader Member
>> SPA L-18, Board Member
>> (865) 435-1476v  (865) 604-0541c
>> 
>> 
>> ________________________________
>> From: "Ed Alt via NSRCA-discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> To: "NSRCA List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2015 8:35:05 AM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll
>> 
>> I'm not sure , but after 100 years or so, it seems that the barrel roll may have a new definition.  This appears to require that the model skid around the entire rotation, which is not really how a barrel roll is typically done as far as I know.  I believe that you would normally do one mainly with simultaneous pitch and roll inputs, and maybe touches of rudder to keep that coordinated, in much the same  way as  a coordinated turn would be done in a full scale aircraft to keep the turn & bank indicator's ball centered. As a result, it would present itself as if the aircraft were traveling along the inside of a cylinder with both of it's main gear wheels always in contact with its inner surface, hence the name barrel roll.  Executed this way, you could do that Bob Hoover demonstration of keeping a glass of some liquid perfectly still, resting on top of the instrument panel.
>> 
>> This definition seems to be more of a variation on an integrated roll, and as a result you would expect to see the tail pointed at perhaps a 45 deg yaw angle at one point (when roll angle = 90 deg), and the nose yawed at you 45 deg at another (when roll angle = 180 deg).  And I think that as a result it would also mean that the wing tip in the direction of the roll would always be in contact with the inner surface of the imaginary cylinder, instead of both wheels.  Am I visualizing that correctly?  It seems like it would be tricky to judge accurately.
>> 
>> Ed
>> 
>> ________________________________
>> Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 23:10:49 -0700
>> To: underdw at gmail.com; nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll
>> From: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> 
>> Hopefully this helps�
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From: NSRCA-discussion on behalf of NSRCA List
>> Reply-To: Daniel Underkofler, NSRCA List
>> Date: Saturday, August 22, 2015 at 6:21 PM
>> To: NSRCA List
>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] F17 barrel roll
>> 
>> In F17 there is a cryptic aresti symbol that is described in the figure description as a barrel roll.  Will somebody please describe this in more detail and what control inputs will obtain the required result?
>> 
>> Thanks, Dan
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