[NSRCA-discussion] LIPOs on board?

Wed Dec 3 17:39:55 AKST 2014

Technology and times move on. As we advance, we learn, apply the lessons and improve. I am sure the horse drawn carriage guys thought the Ford model T was dangerous too.....

Mike C

Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

<div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: Anthony Romano via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> </div><div>Date:12/03/2014  21:30  (GMT-05:00) </div><div>To: Peter Vogel <vogel.peter at gmail.com>, General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> </div><div>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] LIPOs on board? </div><div>
</div>
What about the Tesla fires in the dealer storage yard in NJ during hurricane Sandy? Or the one in the owners garage in Toronto?

http://roxegoc.3rvering.ir/tesla-fire-sandy.php

http://www.businessinsider.com/february-1st-toronto-tesla-fire-2014-2

Or the 787 fires?

http://money.cnn.com/2013/07/12/news/companies/boeing-dreamliner-fire/index.html

Not to further belabor the discussion but let's not cherry pick our data. The point is the risks of fossil fuels is pretty well known while new technologies do present new risks. Given the governments history for rule making I am not sure which one scares me more.

Anthony

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 3, 2014, at 8:52 PM, "Peter Vogel via NSRCA-discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> There have been SIX reported electric car fires in the past several years (none of which involved injury to any people in the car) with over 100,000 electric cars on the road and over 1 billion electric miles driven.  In 2012 alone there were over 175,000 gasoline car fires, 300 deaths and 800 injuries in those fires.   You are statistically MUCH more likely to experience a fire in a gasoline car than in an electric car (regardless of whether you divide by the # of electric cars or # of electric miles vs. the # of gasoline cars or # of gasoline miles driven).
>
> Of the 5 Tesla fires, all were due to road debris penetrating the bottom of the chassis at highway speeds and tesla fixed that 2 ways: extra titanium armor on the bottom and a tweak to the software to not lower the car quite as much (to reduce drag) at highway speeds.
>
> Peter+
>
>> On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 5:28 PM, John Pavlick via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>> Yes but gasoline power systems don’t short out.
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>> John Pavlick
>>
>> Cell: 203-417-4971
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>> <image001.png>
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>> Integrated Development Services
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>> From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Jay Marshall via NSRCA-discussion
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 8:10 PM
>> To: 'John Gayer'; 'General pattern discussion'
>>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] LIPOs on board?
>>
>>
>> Autos will have no impact; they have been driving around, and crashing, with 15 gal of highly flammable fuel for quite some time. I can remember also, when dealing with LISO2 batteries that there were severe restrictions on their weight. It was most embarrassing when we convinced a new customer how great and safe they were and where they arrived they were marked “HAZZARDOUS MATREIAL”!
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>> Jay Marshall
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>> From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John Gayer via NSRCA-discussion
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 5:33 PM
>> To: jpavlick at idseng.com; John Pavlick; General pattern discussion
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] LIPOs on board?
>>
>>
>>
>> If either happens there will be a s***storm over who is to blame while ignoring what should be done to prevent a re-occurrence.  Or better yet put in place some reasonable laws to make an occurrence less likely, keeping in mind the old story about the safest airplane.
>> John
>>
>> On 12/3/2014 2:45 PM, John Pavlick via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
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>> And I wonder what will happen when there’s a major accident involving an electric car on a highway somewhere…
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>>
>> John Pavlick
>>
>> Cell: 203-417-4971
>>
>>
>>
>> <image001.png>
>>
>> Integrated Development Services
>>
>>
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>> From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John Gayer via NSRCA-discussion
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 4:15 PM
>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] LIPOs on board?
>>
>>
>>
>> This article appeared in the Albuquerque Journal this morning. I was not aware that large shipments of lithium batteries could still be just under my seat on my next flight. We all know what havoc a single 10S pack can do if it catches fire. I find it hard to believe that an airliner could survive a palletfull going up. It's no surprise that the fire suppressant they used had no effect.
>> There is a proposed rule going into effect the first of the year that is supposed to eliminate commercial shipments from passenger airliners- if it isn't blocked or postponed. I wonder what the checkin counter response would be to a question of whether there is a shipment of lipos on board? Think they could even find out that information?
>>
>> John Gayer
>>
>> Shipments of lithium-ion units raise concerns over fires, blasts
>>
>> WASHINGTON — Dramatic U.S. government test results raise new concern that bulk shipments of rechargeable lithium batteries carried as cargo on passenger planes are susceptible to fires or explosions that could destroy the airliners.
>> <image002.jpg>This video frame grab shows a test of a cargo container packed with 5,000 lithium-ion batteries and a cartridThis video frame grab shows a test of a cargo container packed with 5,000 lithium-ion batteries and a cartridge heater that resulted in a fire and explosion.
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>> Yet U.S. and international officials have been slow to adopt safety restrictions that might affect the powerful industries that depend on the batteries and the airlines that profit from shipping them. The batteries are used in products ranging from cellphones and laptops to hybrid cars.
>> Shipments of rechargeable batteries on passenger planes are supposed to be limited to no more than a handful in a single box, under safety standards set by the U.N.’s International Civil Aviation Organization and adopted by the U.S. and other nations. But a loophole permits shippers to pack many small boxes into one shipment and get around the rules. Tens of thousands of the batteries may be packed into pallets or containers and loaded into the cargo holds of wide-body passenger planes.
>> In an April test by the Federal Aviation Administration, a cargo container was packed with 5,000 lithium-ion batteries and a cartridge heater added to simulate a single battery experiencing uncontrolled overheating. The heat from the cartridge triggered escalating overheating in nearby batteries, which spread in a chain reaction. Temperatures reached about 1,100 degrees.
>> Once about 300 batteries had become involved, a fierce explosion blew open the container door and sent boxes flying, catching FAA and industry observers by surprise. Within seconds, the cargo container was in flames. The explosion came from a buildup of flammable gases. A second test in September produced similar results, despite the addition of a fire suppression agent.
>> The U.N.’s civil aviation agency is considering a series of proposals to strengthen packaging, labeling and handling standards for lithium-ion battery shipments, and airline pilot unions are pushing for limits on the number of batteries that can be transported.
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