[NSRCA-discussion] 2015 proposed sequences

Wed Aug 20 11:31:36 AKDT 2014

"The square on corner with knife edge corner may require a little more setup but not a maneuver that is going to hurt any models."

One of the Masters pilots here (who doesn't compete as much lately due to jets) was trying to do the KE corner with his Wind. He would go to high rate rudder and hammer it in. I asked him to try it on low rate and ease it in. Other than a left rudder/aileron mix fix needed, it went right around and was smooth by his 5th try. Only 'set-up' needed was to fix his KE mix that wasn't quite right to begin with.

One thing I have noticed is that Masters is the destination class, not F3A (as some have mentioned). It's my guess that F3A might be loosing a few pilots once F-17 comes out so it should make Masters more 'fun' regardless of the difficulty in the pattern. Might be time to start being more nit picky when judging and not think that a score lower than a 6 will hurt someone's feelings.

Sent from my iP

> On Aug 20, 2014, at 2:16 PM, Don Ramsey via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> 
> Is the Advanced pattern too difficult?  Here are the Advanced maneuvers.
>  
> Double Immelmann – Did this maneuver 2 patterns ago with an inverted roll at the bottom.
> Humpty Bump – done forever
> Slow Roll – done forever
> Shark’s Tooth – doing it now
> Avalanche – done forever
> Stall Turn – done forever with all kinds of rolls
> Sq on Corner – Intermediate is doing it in current sequence without the one ½ roll
> Figure 9 – no problem here
> Hourglass – a new harder maneuver that requires planning
> Stall turn – done forever
> Four point roll  – done forever
> Top Hat – done forever
> Cobra Roll – only difficulty is snap and Advanced does a 45 downline snap now
> ½ Square – done forever
> Triangle – done forever and the bottom radius is done from upright
> ½ reverse Cuban – done from a high base but should be relatively easy
> Three turn spin – done forever
>  
> The hourglass is the difficult maneuver but it has been designed so the ½ roll in the downline allows a positive pull to make the horizontal bottom.  With the figure 9 being the setup maneuver there should be little difficulty in positioning it to have plenty of altitude at the bottom.  Maneuver 17, ½ reverse Cuban eight, is done from a high base but is just a 45 downline with a ½ roll then a push to into a partial loop.  Looks different but pretty easy to do.
>  
> I didn’t do as well flying the Masters sequence the first time as I did with the Advanced.  More planning and one aircraft setup maneuver is the key.  The square on corner with knife edge corner may require a little more setup but not a maneuver that is going to hurt any models. The integrated maneuvers are welcome.  Before I flew the pattern I thought the reverse top hat might be a challenge but it was not bad.  I like this pattern even if is only going to be for one season.
>  
> Don
>  
>  
>  
> From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ron Hansen via NSRCA-discussion
> Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2014 6:29 AM
> To: 'John Ford'; 'General pattern discussion'; 'lucky macy'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2015 proposed sequences
>  
> I’m going to come at this from a completely different direction.  I fly advanced and will fly whatever sequence the sequence committee sends my way.  If I find out I can’t fly it safely then I will move back to intermediate.  My expectation is that I won’t fly a sequence that I don’t feel I can fly safely in taxing situations like high winds or low light conditions.  I don’t think the sequence committee should design a sequence to make sure I or we can fly competitively.  I have a lower threshold, I just expect to be able to fly it safely especially in taxing situations.  If I thought I could move up to Masters and fly it safely in taxing situations then I would move up.  I don’t expect to move up to Masters and fly it competently or even competitively.
>  
> It seems there are enough members who are seriously concerned about the new sequences.  So why do we need to make such a rash decision to make the advanced and masters sequences more difficult at this time?  Let’s lower the difficulty for this cycle and in the meantime let’s send out another survey where we can vote on these issues and move on.  It seems like we are putting the cart before the horse.
>  
> Ron
>  
> From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John Ford via NSRCA-discussion
> Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 3:01 PM
> To: lucky macy; General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2015 proposed sequences
>  
> I agree with Lucky. 
> I don't know how many people have mentioned to me over the years that the top pilots stopped attending local contests when the TOC was in full swing…not necessarily for the wrong reasons, but because being competitive at the TOC took 110% of time and resources. 
>  
> There is an attraction to contests by virtue of the halo effect of the top pilots…simply because everyone wants to see what they use, how it is set up, how they fly…chat about trimming, chat about nothing at all, just to chat, etc, etc.
> When they did show up, it sent the message that they valued the event, and valued the sport.
>  
> Same is true of any other sport, I guess.
>  
> John
>  
>  
>  
> On Aug 19, 2014, at 1:48 PM, lucky macy via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>  
> 
> speaking of WOW factor and TOC...
>  
> Yes, highly visible TOC (largest aviation purse prize at the time whether RC or full scale) encouraged the big and bold engines/airframes but neither insider or general media coverage made more than a brief mention on how the pilots were exactly chosen and how it was years of pattern devotion that got them the skills and the invite to the TOC in the first place.  And as a caller for a TOC pilot one year and having a ringside seat to TOC pilots talking to the 'fans' and to the occoasional reporter, they didn't promote pattern themselves either whenever I was listening.  Ha, I never heard one ever mention pattern or suggest to fans to give pattern a shot.  Didn't mean it never happened when I wasn't around but I was keenly interested in the pattern connection back then as I had just started to compete myself so was very sensitive to anything said about it, or lack there of, and that impression never left me.  Pattern just didn't get it's due recognition starting at least back in the mid 90s.  If the die hard fans really didn't get the pattern connection beyond the 'yeah he's probably a good pattern flyer too' then how would joe average club flyer ever see it and be motivated?
>  
> Doesn't help that many of the once recognizable pattern names that could still be flying and getting coverage aren't.  I'm thinking Mike McConville, Peter Goldsmith, Dave Von Linsowe, Mike Klein and a host of others now with that used to kick butt in pattern. Makes one wonder, did a generation fly pattern with the main incentive to become TOC pilots?  No more TOC, no more incentive for a large chunk of the ultra skilled and competitive types?  Makes you really appreciate the Shulman and the Hyde types who keep going at it after they've been to the top of the mountain that doesn't exist anymore.
>  
>  
> > To: jsf106 at gmail.com; nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 09:35:40 -0700
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2015 proposed sequences
> > From: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > 
> > Your right, we as individuals need to be visible locally and encourage /
> > help club members mildly interested in flying aerobatics. They may be
> > getting board flying trainers in a racetrack pattern.
> > The WOW FACTOR shifted away from pattern about the time the TOC fielded
> > large aerobatic aircraft in a highly visible environment.
> > Jim 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
> > Behalf Of John Ford via NSRCA-discussion
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 5:36 AM
> > To: Whodaddy Whodaddy; General pattern discussion
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2015 proposed sequences
> > 
> > To my knowledge, I don't think I've heard too many (or any) pilots quit
> > pattern because it was too hard to do, or too expensive, or anything else. 
> > IMAC and helicopters are at least as expensive, if not more, and the
> > classes' difficulty levels mirror our own, in my opinion. 
> > 
> > What makes the difference is marketing. IMAC and helis are always high
> > profile at any event, the promoters do a good job of "selling" the pilots
> > and the equipment. Hobby shops always showcase the latest or the biggest.
> > The magazine adds almost always choose IMAC or helis to promote radios,
> > batteries, or fuels.
> > 
> > Back when Pattern was big and local contests had 40 pilots, the cover of the
> > magazines featured Hanno, Ivan, or Rhet, and the full-page glossy back cover
> > was of Ivan and his Summit 3, endorsing Carl Golberg widgets. 
> > 
> > Today, if you walk in off the street as a rank beginner and you try to
> > "find" pattern, you gotta dig deep, go far, send lots of emails, and finally
> > you might (never for sure) come across a contest flyer. Then you go to the
> > contest and you find a bunch of really nice people, willing to drown you in
> > advice and help, but you realize pretty quickly that this group of people
> > are a bit off-center.sharply focused on planes, endless trimming, practicing
> > to the exclusion of all else, and sleeping on a bed of nails at night. Above
> > all, almost nobody knows they even exist in this little hidden world of RC
> > idealism.
> > 
> > Go to a hobby shop and say you want to do helicopters.same reaction as
> > walking into a ER saying you have chest pains. 
> > Go to a hobby shop and say you want to do pattern.hmmm."well, there's a guy
> > I used to know that did some of that, I think, not sure if he's still
> > around.haven't seen him for a few years"...
> > 
> > That's where the difference is. 
> > 
> > John
> > 
> > 
> > On Aug 19, 2014, at 7:14 AM, Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion
> > <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> > 
> > > K factors should be rethought .. An eight point role with my Phoenix 8 is
> > alot different than with my current 2 meter .. Its like flying a gift now
> > days other than centering of the maneuver yet retains the same or close to
> > the same k factor as many years past... Food for thought... 
> > > 
> > > Once again the current proposed pattern needs fixed or the numbers will
> > dwindle by at least one nxt year.. I can promise that..
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Gary 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > 
> > >> On Aug 18, 2014, at 11:34 PM, John Gayer via NSRCA-discussion
> > <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> > >> 
> > >> Advanced and Masters are not our entry classes and should not affect
> > future participation. Those new to pattern should begin in either Sportsman
> > or Intermediate depending on skill level. When a flyer feels he is ready to
> > move up, he will try flying the next class in practice. If it is too
> > difficult to even see a way to fly that sequence reasonably, then that pilot
> > was not ready to move up and should stay in his current class another year
> > (or more). We do not lose people because they stayed in their current class,
> > we lose them because they moved up when not ready and find they are
> > outclassed without the vision, coordination, time to practice (or name your
> > reason) to be competitive. Not competitive for winning, just competitive. 
> > >> Both Masters and Advanced can, and probably will be, changed next year.
> > Any substantial problems can be addressed then. Many have tested these
> > sequences. All have have flown them successfully, if not always happily. We
> > can go on and on about ugly maneuvers, difficulty levels and dislike of
> > change but that happens every cycle. 
> > >> 
> > >> Just for comparison here are Advanced and Masters from 20 years ago.
> > Overall both appear somewhat easier than the current sequences we are flying
> > but not a lot. Total KFactors are a bit lower. Also we are flying many of
> > the same maneuvers. I hope you noticed the knife edge top of the cobra in
> > masters. If you go back even further you can find a two roll loop in the
> > days before retracts...
> > >> 
> > >> John Gayer
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> <ejceefij.png><eibcgfea.png>
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