[NSRCA-discussion] FW: From the Judges Chair

Wed Apr 9 06:45:26 AKDT 2014

Hi everybody,

Just my 2 cents as FAI judge and that may be I will be judging again in Switzerland in 2015:
In the case of Maneuver 13 for F-15:
Remember geometry is the most important part of each maneuver (50%), so if you change radii then you will have penalty, the center of a maneuver (in the meetings previous to the WC by M Ramel and approved by consensus) is the center of the whole maneuver, so the pilot do not have to force the second radii to match the first one (even though he has penalty for the change of radii), but by geometry if is performed correctly the center of the maneuver is the center of the 3/4 loop or when the plane is in the up position on the top of the loop, which is the same as the point where the plane star the first 1/4 of a loop. The straight segments has to be shown always but not with some pre-defined length. and in between center and turn around maneuvers the pilot can change elevation for positioning without penalty.
As a Judge to me is more important to see a well geometry defined maneuver centered where it should be centered other than that are penalties.

Arturo Zapata
Colombian -FAI Judge

On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 9:38 AM, Anthony Romano <anthonyr105 at hotmail.com> wrote:

Wow, all of these went to my junk folder, not sure what to make of that!?

So the logical consensus is the diagram below is the correct presentation. 
However, this conflicts with the latest version of the aresti in the sporting code which shows the upline at center. Is this an issue? I thought the aresti takes priority? Can we get a clarification?

Anthony

From:Derek Koopowitz [mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 4:56 PM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] >From the Judges Chair

John,

One always has to take into account the entry/exit lines… it’s not defined on how long they are but that they must exist and if we take an entry and exit line length of 15 meters (for example) then the exit line of 15 meters starts when the ¾ loop is completed and hits the horizontal and the 15 meters entry line starts (obviously) 15 meters before the radius is started.  If that’s the case then a tight entry radius was done and a large loop at the top was done, then where would the center be for judging purposes?  If done correctly, yes, I do agree that the center of the maneuver should be reasonably close to the top of the loop.  One shouldn’t look at this maneuver for a center that will be consistent for each pilot.  The center will be different – it is the mid-point between the start and end.

In the example below – the horizontal lines are identical in length but with a small (tight) entry radius and a large loop – where is the center?  Check out the next picture…

Now look at this picture with the radii the same and with identical entry / exit line lengths…  where is center?

Hopefully this helps…

-Derek

From:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John Gayer
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 3:43 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] >From the Judges Chair

Derek,
The input radius of the first quarter loop is part of the maneuver and defines the radius of the 3/4 loop. If you initiate the 1/4 loop on the center pole, the center of the maneuver does not shift with radius size and is centered in the box. In other words,size doesn't matter.
John
On 4/8/2014 4:24 PM, Derek Koopowitz wrote:
I don’t think you can leave off the input radius because the input radius size will change where center is located.
> 
> 
>From:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Jas S
>Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 3:15 PM
>To: General pattern discussion
>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] >From the Judges Chair
> 
>I've always enjoyed that pattern had definition (centers, box...) and that's why I don't fly IMAC but once a year if at that. 
>If the start of the 9 is at the bottom 1/4 loop (minus entry line),
>and the end is at the end of the 3/4 loop (minus the exit line),
>and the bottom and top radii are equal (as are the entry and exit lines),
>wouldn't the center be the start of the bottom loop/middle of roll/top of 3/4 loop/finish of 3/4 loop?
> 
>On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 6:05 PM, Daniel Underkofler <underdw at gmail.com> wrote:
>Thank you!  My thoughts exactly
>> 
>>On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 4:02 PM, John Gayer <jgghome at comcast.net> wrote:
>>Derek,
>>>"Somewhere in the 3/4 loop portion" is awfully vague and unjudgeable. I could buy anywhere in the 3/4 loop portion but not somewhere.
>>>The center you are describing would appear to be affected somehow by the entry and exit lines of the maneuver as per your description in the March K-Factor. I don't see that. This maneuver(figure 9) could be described as a single loop with a straight vertical line between the first quadrant and the last three quadrants. What rolls occur do not affect that basic shape. That places the center of the maneuver at the initial pullup into a quarter loop just as it would for a simple loop. The apex of the 3/4 loop would also be on the centerline and so would the return to level flight at the exit.
>>>As far as the straight line entry and exit being somehow offset, I don't see that either. The entry line ends at the quarter loop pullup and exit line begins upon completion of the 3/4 loop. Those two points should form a vertical line. I see that as the maneuver centerline as well.
>>>It's certainly true that the aresti shows the wrong center and it is certainly true that the sub-committee chair has the last word but he should be using a better word than "somewhere".
>>>John
>>>On 4/8/2014 3:22 PM, Derek Koopowitz wrote:
>>>Anthony,
>>>> 
>>>>This shouldn’t be confusing at all… the center of the maneuver is the middle point between the start and end of the maneuver.  How much more simple can it get?   The statement that the “middle should be somewhere in the ¾ loop portion” is correct – depending on the size of the ¾ loop which must match the radius of the ¼ loop from horizontal to vertical when the maneuver starts.  That center portion will change for every pilot as each pilot will fly it differently.
>>>> 
>>>>Your comment about “many outside the US” isn’t accurate – if they see it differently then they are incorrect.  The clarification I got is straight from the F3 sub-committee chair…
>>>> 
>>>>-Derek
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>From:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Anthony Romano
>>>>Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 11:27 AM
>>>>To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair
>>>> 
>>>>Would love to see a review of maneuver 13 of the Finals sequence. In the March Kfactor the center was described as "should be the middle of the maneuver somewhere in the ¾ loop portion." While the many outside the US see it that the loop is centered and the Aresti in the latest FAI sporting code show the upline being centered.
>>>> 
>>>>A bit confusing,
>>>> 
>>>>Anthony
>>>>
>>>>________________________________
>>>>
>>>>Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 09:28:00 -0700
>>>>From: joncarter60 at comcast.net
>>>>To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair
>>>>Hey guys - we got an excellent suggestion from the group for last month's article so I thought I would ask again! Anyone have a burning maneuver or judging question? Just let me know.
>>>> 
>>>>Thanks,
>>>> 
>>>>Jon Carter
>>>>Judging Committee Chairman
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S®4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
>>>>
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>
>
>-- 
>Jason
>http://jasonshangar.weebly.com/
> 
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