[NSRCA-discussion] FW: From the Judges Chair

Tue Apr 8 20:31:52 AKDT 2014

Point being, I think, that the radius variation deduction should apply in that case, but if the maneuver is centered as-flown with the variation in Radii, there is no deduction for an error in centering because the center of the as-flown maneuver was appropriately placed—
Sent from Mailbox for iPhone

On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 9:29 PM, Derek Koopowitz <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Yes, they are required
 the 1st diagram shows the maneuver with an incorrect
> (large) 2nd radius.
>  
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of George Kennie
> Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 5:13 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: From the Judges Chair
>  
> Are not constant radii required ?
>  
> On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 8:03 PM, Derek Koopowitz <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com
> <mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com> > wrote:
> My apologies
 I drew the exits on the wrong side
 here are the corrected
> drawings:
>  
>  
>  
>  
> From: Derek Koopowitz [mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com] 
> Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 4:56 PM
> To: 'General pattern discussion'
> Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] >From the Judges Chair
>  
> John,
>  
> One always has to take into account the entry/exit lines
 it’s not defined
> on how long they are but that they must exist and if we take an entry and
> exit line length of 15 meters (for example) then the exit line of 15 meters
> starts when the ¾ loop is completed and hits the horizontal and the 15
> meters entry line starts (obviously) 15 meters before the radius is started.
> If that’s the case then a tight entry radius was done and a large loop at
> the top was done, then where would the center be for judging purposes?  If
> done correctly, yes, I do agree that the center of the maneuver should be
> reasonably close to the top of the loop.  One shouldn’t look at this
> maneuver for a center that will be consistent for each pilot.  The center
> will be different – it is the mid-point between the start and end.
>  
> In the example below – the horizontal lines are identical in length but with
> a small (tight) entry radius and a large loop – where is the center?  Check
> out the next picture

>  
>  
>  
>  
> Now look at this picture with the radii the same and with identical entry /
> exit line lengths
  where is center?
>  
>  
> Hopefully this helps

>  
> -Derek
>  
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John Gayer
> Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 3:43 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] >From the Judges Chair
>  
> Derek,
> The input radius of the first quarter loop is part of the maneuver and
> defines the radius of the 3/4 loop. If you initiate the 1/4 loop on the
> center pole, the center of the maneuver does not shift with radius size and
> is centered in the box. In other words,size doesn't matter.
> John
> On 4/8/2014 4:24 PM, Derek Koopowitz wrote:
> I don’t think you can leave off the input radius because the input radius
> size will change where center is located.
>  
>  
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Jas S
> Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 3:15 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] >From the Judges Chair
>  
> I've always enjoyed that pattern had definition (centers, box...) and that's
> why I don't fly IMAC but once a year if at that. 
> If the start of the 9 is at the bottom 1/4 loop (minus entry line),
> and the end is at the end of the 3/4 loop (minus the exit line),
> and the bottom and top radii are equal (as are the entry and exit lines),
> wouldn't the center be the start of the bottom loop/middle of roll/top of
> 3/4 loop/finish of 3/4 loop?
>  
> On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 6:05 PM, Daniel Underkofler <underdw at gmail.com
> <mailto:underdw at gmail.com> > wrote:
> Thank you!  My thoughts exactly
>  
> On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 4:02 PM, John Gayer <jgghome at comcast.net
> <mailto:jgghome at comcast.net> > wrote:
> Derek,
> "Somewhere in the 3/4 loop portion" is awfully vague and unjudgeable. I
> could buy anywhere in the 3/4 loop portion but not somewhere.
> The center you are describing would appear to be affected somehow by the
> entry and exit lines of the maneuver as per your description in the March
> K-Factor. I don't see that. This maneuver(figure 9) could be described as a
> single loop with a straight vertical line between the first quadrant and the
> last three quadrants. What rolls occur do not affect that basic shape. That
> places the center of the maneuver at the initial pullup into a quarter loop
> just as it would for a simple loop. The apex of the 3/4 loop would also be
> on the centerline and so would the return to level flight at the exit.
> As far as the straight line entry and exit being somehow offset, I don't see
> that either. The entry line ends at the quarter loop pullup and exit line
> begins upon completion of the 3/4 loop. Those two points should form a
> vertical line. I see that as the maneuver centerline as well.
> It's certainly true that the aresti shows the wrong center and it is
> certainly true that the sub-committee chair has the last word but he should
> be using a better word than "somewhere".
> John
> On 4/8/2014 3:22 PM, Derek Koopowitz wrote:
> Anthony,
>  
> This shouldn’t be confusing at all
 the center of the maneuver is the middle
> point between the start and end of the maneuver.  How much more simple can
> it get?   The statement that the “middle should be somewhere in the ¾ loop
> portion” is correct – depending on the size of the ¾ loop which must match
> the radius of the ¼ loop from horizontal to vertical when the maneuver
> starts.  That center portion will change for every pilot as each pilot will
> fly it differently.
>  
> Your comment about “many outside the US” isn’t accurate – if they see it
> differently then they are incorrect.  The clarification I got is straight
> from the F3 sub-committee chair

>  
> -Derek
>  
>  
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Anthony
> Romano
> Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 11:27 AM
> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair
>  
> Would love to see a review of maneuver 13 of the Finals sequence. In the
> March Kfactor the center was described as "should be the middle of the
> maneuver somewhere in the ¾ loop portion." While the many outside the US see
> it that the loop is centered and the Aresti in the latest FAI sporting code
> show the upline being centered.
>  
> A bit confusing,
>  
> Anthony
>   _____  
> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 09:28:00 -0700
> From: joncarter60 at comcast.net <mailto:joncarter60 at comcast.net> 
> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 
> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair
> Hey guys - we got an excellent suggestion from the group for last month's
> article so I thought I would ask again! Anyone have a burning maneuver or
> judging question? Just let me know.
>  
> Thanks,
>  
> Jon Carter
> Judging Committee Chairman
>  
>  
>  
> Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S®4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
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> http://jasonshangar.weebly.com/
>  
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