[NSRCA-discussion] FW: From the Judges Chair

George Kennie geobet4evr at gmail.com
Tue Apr 8 19:04:41 AKDT 2014


Are not constant radii required ?


On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 8:03 PM, Derek Koopowitz <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com>wrote:

> My apologies... I drew the exits on the wrong side... here are the corrected
> drawings:
>
>
>
>
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>
>
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>
> *From:* Derek Koopowitz [mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com<derekkoopowitz at gmail.com>]
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 08, 2014 4:56 PM
> *To:* 'General pattern discussion'
> *Subject:* RE: [NSRCA-discussion] >From the Judges Chair
>
>
>
> John,
>
>
>
> One always has to take into account the entry/exit lines... it's not defined
> on how long they are but that they must exist and if we take an entry and
> exit line length of 15 meters (for example) then the exit line of 15 meters
> starts when the 3/4 loop is completed and hits the horizontal and the 15
> meters entry line starts (obviously) 15 meters before the radius is
> started.  If that's the case then a tight entry radius was done and a large
> loop at the top was done, then where would the center be for judging
> purposes?  If done correctly, yes, I do agree that the center of the
> maneuver should be reasonably close to the top of the loop.  One shouldn't
> look at this maneuver for a center that will be consistent for each pilot.
> The center will be different - it is the mid-point between the start and
> end.
>
>
>
> In the example below - the horizontal lines are identical in length but
> with a small (tight) entry radius and a large loop - where is the center?
> Check out the next picture...
>
>
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>
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>
>
> Now look at this picture with the radii the same and with identical entry
> / exit line lengths...  where is center?
>
>
>
>
>
> Hopefully this helps...
>
>
>
> -Derek
>
>
>
> *From:* nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [
> mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>]
> *On Behalf Of *John Gayer
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 08, 2014 3:43 PM
>
> *To:* General pattern discussion
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] >From the Judges Chair
>
>
>
> Derek,
> The input radius of the first quarter loop is part of the maneuver and
> defines the radius of the 3/4 loop. If you initiate the 1/4 loop on the
> center pole, the center of the maneuver does not shift with radius size and
> is centered in the box. In other words,size doesn't matter.
> John
>
> On 4/8/2014 4:24 PM, Derek Koopowitz wrote:
>
> I don't think you can leave off the input radius because the input radius
> size will change where center is located.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [
> mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>]
> *On Behalf Of *Jas S
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 08, 2014 3:15 PM
> *To:* General pattern discussion
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] >From the Judges Chair
>
>
>
> I've always enjoyed that pattern had definition (centers, box...) and
> that's why I don't fly IMAC but once a year if at that.
>
> If the start of the 9 is at the bottom 1/4 loop (minus entry line),
>
> and the end is at the end of the 3/4 loop (minus the exit line),
>
> and the bottom and top radii are equal (as are the entry and exit lines),
>
> wouldn't the center be the start of the bottom loop/middle of roll/top of
> 3/4 loop/finish of 3/4 loop?
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 6:05 PM, Daniel Underkofler <underdw at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Thank you!  My thoughts exactly
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 4:02 PM, John Gayer <jgghome at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Derek,
> "Somewhere in the 3/4 loop portion" is awfully vague and unjudgeable. I
> could buy anywhere in the 3/4 loop portion but not somewhere.
> The center you are describing would appear to be affected somehow by the
> entry and exit lines of the maneuver as per your description in the March
> K-Factor. I don't see that. This maneuver(figure 9) could be described as a
> single loop with a straight vertical line between the first quadrant and
> the last three quadrants. What rolls occur do not affect that basic shape.
> That places the center of the maneuver at the initial pullup into a quarter
> loop just as it would for a simple loop. The apex of the 3/4 loop would
> also be on the centerline and so would the return to level flight at the
> exit.
> As far as the straight line entry and exit being somehow offset, I don't
> see that either. The entry line ends at the quarter loop pullup and exit
> line begins upon completion of the 3/4 loop. Those two points should form a
> vertical line. I see that as the maneuver centerline as well.
> It's certainly true that the aresti shows the wrong center and it is
> certainly true that the sub-committee chair has the last word but he should
> be using a better word than "somewhere".
> John
>
> On 4/8/2014 3:22 PM, Derek Koopowitz wrote:
>
> Anthony,
>
>
>
> This shouldn't be confusing at all... the center of the maneuver is the
> middle point between the start and end of the maneuver.  How much more
> simple can it get?   The statement that the "middle should be somewhere in
> the 3/4 loop portion" is correct - depending on the size of the 3/4 loop which
> must match the radius of the 1/4 loop from horizontal to vertical when the
> maneuver starts.  That center portion will change for every pilot as each
> pilot will fly it differently.
>
>
>
> Your comment about "many outside the US" isn't accurate - if they see it
> differently then they are incorrect.  The clarification I got is straight
> from the F3 sub-committee chair...
>
>
>
> -Derek
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [
> mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>]
> *On Behalf Of *Anthony Romano
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 08, 2014 11:27 AM
> *To:* nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair
>
>
>
> Would love to see a review of maneuver 13 of the Finals sequence. In the
> March Kfactor the center was described as "should be the middle of the
> maneuver somewhere in the 3/4 loop portion." While the many outside the US
> see it that the loop is centered and the Aresti in the latest FAI sporting
> code show the upline being centered.
>
>
>
> A bit confusing,
>
>
>
> Anthony
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 09:28:00 -0700
> From: joncarter60 at comcast.net
> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair
>
> Hey guys - we got an excellent suggestion from the group for last month's
> article so I thought I would ask again! Anyone have a burning maneuver or
> judging question? Just let me know.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Jon Carter
>
> Judging Committee Chairman
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S(R)4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
>
>
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> --
>
> Jason
> http://jasonshangar.weebly.com/
>
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