[NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair

Tue Apr 8 18:26:57 AKDT 2014

Wait a minute, Mark and Derek and Georgie all agreeing???!!!  What is this world coming to???

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: Derek Koopowitz <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com>
To: 'General pattern discussion' <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Tue, Apr 8, 2014 9:25 pm
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair

Agreed.  In order to get a 10 the middle of the maneuver is the top of the loop if it is perfectly placed and the geometry is equal and there are entry and exit lines visible. 

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 5:59 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair

Bottom line is that to get a 10 on this maneuver, the center IS the center of the loop.  Pull starts at the center line and the top loop ends on the center line.  There's absolutely no way to draw this with equal radii and not have the center be the center of the loop.  

Sent from my average intelligence  phone

On Apr 8, 2014, at 8:45 PM, "J N Hiller" <jnhiller at earthlink.net> wrote:

I’d agree with that if the center is not relative to or based on the overall size – width of the geometry flown.
I just need to know.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Jon Lowe
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 5:37 PM
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] >From the Judges Chair
I don't agree with your sentence, "Perfect geometry with equal radiuses wound center on the start of the ¼ R, but cannot be confirmed until the ¾ loop radius is judged to be equal. "  

Since the loops are supposed to be equal in size, the start of the 1/4 loop to vertical defines the center of the maneuver.  
That should be on the center pole. And in FAI, the first radius determines the radii for the entire maneuver (5B.8.4) As I said in a previous post, since that is center, then the top 3/4 loop must have the same center.  Just because they do the top wrong, not matching the first radius, does not change the center of the entire maneuver.
Jon
-----Original Message-----
From: J N Hiller <jnhiller at earthlink.net>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Tue, Apr 8, 2014 7:25 pm
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair

I’m one of the folks that sit in the chair and judge this stuff.
Referencing - 2014 FAI Sporting Code - F3 Aerobatics.pdf  - under lines 5B.8.3, entry and exit lines need to be horizontal and of recognizable length. I understand this to mean, not equal in length and no specific length. Both lines could be within the boundary of the geometry.
Perfect geometry with equal radiuses wound center on the start of the ¼ R, but cannot be confirmed until the ¾ loop radius is judged to be equal. 
A maneuver having un-equal radiuses would center the maneuver to no predefined point which will be somewhere within the 3/4 loop.
A larger radius ¾ loop would offset the center towards the entrance side where a smaller radius ¾ loop would offset the center towards the exit side neither of which will be directly above the start of the ¼ loop. Understanding this, there can be no pre-stated center reference.
Jim Hiller
Spokane

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Jas S
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 3:54 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] >From the Judges Chair

If there was a roll on the exit, then I think we would be in the 'somewhere' center right? 

Time for dinner, need to replenish... 

On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Jas S <justanotherflyr at gmail.com> wrote:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-pattern-flying-101/11596737-f-15-figure-9-centerline-question.html
Post #8

On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 6:50 PM, Jas S <justanotherflyr at gmail.com> wrote:

Oh yea, forgot about those lol. Being in a straight line, the 'line' (whole maneuver) is centered with those.

Someone posted a drawing of the 9 on RCU, and while the center is the whole maneuver works, isn't it going to be the center of the loops/roll when done correctly?

On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 6:21 PM, Derek Koopowitz <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com> wrote:

So in years past we’ve had a 1 ½ snap roll followed by a 2 ½ rolls in the opposite direction.  Where is the center on that maneuver?  The center is the mid-point between the start and finish of the maneuver (including straight line in and straight line out).  There is no definitive middle to these types of maneuvers and so a statement that it is “somewhere in between the 2 ½ rolls” would be accurate as well – it depends on how fast/slow those rolls were done. 

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John Gayer
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 3:03 PM
To: General pattern discussion

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] >From the Judges Chair

Derek,
"Somewhere in the 3/4 loop portion" is awfully vague and unjudgeable. I could buy anywhere in the 3/4 loop portion but not somewhere.
The center you are describing would appear to be affected somehow by the entry and exit lines of the maneuver as per your description in the March K-Factor. I don't see that. This maneuver(figure 9) could be described as a single loop with a straight vertical line between the first quadrant and the last three quadrants. What rolls occur do not affect that basic shape. That places the center of the maneuver at the initial pullup into a quarter loop just as it would for a simple loop. The apex of the 3/4 loop would also be on the centerline and so would the return to level flight at the exit.
As far as the straight line entry and exit being somehow offset, I don't see that either. The entry line ends at the quarter loop pullup and exit line begins upon completion of the 3/4 loop. Those two points should form a vertical line. I see that as the maneuver centerline as well.
It's certainly true that the aresti shows the wrong center and it is certainly true that the sub-committee chair has the last word but he should be using a better word than "somewhere".
John
On 4/8/2014 3:22 PM, Derek Koopowitz wrote:

Anthony,

This shouldn’t be confusing at all… the center of the maneuver is the middle point between the start and end of the maneuver.  How much more simple can it get?   The statement that the “middle should be somewhere in the ¾ loop portion” is correct – depending on the size of the ¾ loop which must match the radius of the ¼ loop from horizontal to vertical when the maneuver starts.  That center portion will change for every pilot as each pilot will fly it differently.

Your comment about “many outside the US” isn’t accurate – if they see it differently then they are incorrect.  The clarification I got is straight from the F3 sub-committee chair…

-Derek

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Anthony Romano
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 11:27 AM
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] >From the Judges Chair

Would love to see a review of maneuver 13 of the Finals sequence. In the March Kfactor the center was described as "should be the middle of the maneuver somewhere in the ¾ loop portion." While the many outside the US see it that the loop is centered and the Aresti in the latest FAI sporting code show the upline being centered.

A bit confusing,

Anthony

Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 09:28:00 -0700
From: joncarter60 at comcast.net
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair

Hey guys - we got an excellent suggestion from the group for last month's article so I thought I would ask again! Anyone have a burning maneuver or judging question? Just let me know.

Thanks,

Jon Carter
Judging Committee Chairman

Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S®4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

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