[NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation

[Michael S. Harrison]

I found this email in my junk, so I am out of sorts in my responses.  Up to
speed now.  I believe we are both saying the same thing.  

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2013 8:17 AM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation

Hey Mike,

I understand, but we're talking about a couple different issues.  The AMA is
now using a formula to determine TEAM funding.  That's independent of
representative funding (i.e sending Derek to the meetings).  They have
chosen NOT to fund representation.  Period.

So we have two issues to solve.

A) Raising money independent of the AMA to continue our representation.  I
think this falls on the NSRCA and will need to come out of our budget
somehow, either by additional dues, donation, or tightening our belt
elsewhere.

B) Increasing our OFFICIAL participation so that we qualify for AMA Team
funds.  This will require more people to formally participate in the team
selection event.  Achieving that will require publicizing the problem to
create some awareness, and lowering the contest cost (inappropriately high
at the moment since it's a combined event) so that it's reasonable for all
of us to enter.


Mark Atwood
Paragon Consulting, Inc.  |  President
5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
Phone: 440.684.3101 x102  |  Direct: 440-229-2502
Fax: 440.684.3102
mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com  |  www.paragon-inc.com





On Mar 14, 2013, at 8:42 AM, "Michael S. Harrison" <drmikedds at sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

Mark,
When you say voluntary you have doomed the process, you have missed the
point also.  It is not money to fund a team it is a fee to insure the health
of the FAI F3A program and show AMA we participate. It is important to show
viability.  Funding the team is a separate issue. The point I was trying to
make is to get the participation level high and accountable.  Where the
money goes is a separate issue and a different discussion.

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 5:22 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation

I don't think the FAI stamp program is what we want. I just got my stamp
through Colleen as it is required for the world champs. None of that money
days with the AMA. It all gets passed through to FAI.

I really think what we are looking for is a donation box on our renewal form
to contribute to the FAI team fund And or a fund to help participate in the
CIAM meeting.

Participation in this team trials tournament is a different issue which we
also need to increase. That could simply means lowering the price
substantially since it's no longer a separate event and requiring anybody
who wants to participate in the semifinals to Sign up and pay the extra fee.



Sent from my average intelligence  phone


On Mar 13, 2013, at 6:02 PM, "Jon Lowe"
<jonlowe at aol.com<mailto:jonlowe at aol.com>> wrote:

Anyone can get the stamp.  I'm checking on where the money goes.  It will
probably be tomorrow before I know since AMA is closed for the day.

If you want a stamp, call Colleen Pierce at AMA, and she can take credit
cards, or you can send a check to AMA to her attention.
Jon
-----Original Message-----
From: John Fuqua <johnfuqua at embarqmail.com<mailto:johnfuqua at embarqmail.com>>
To: 'General pattern discussion'
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
Sent: Wed, Mar 13, 2013 4:45 pm
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation


Does one have to fly in FAI to buy an FAI stamp which I would do if I knew
the money was going exclusively to the US F3A team.

-----Original Message-----
From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis
ts.nsrca.org>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bou
nces at lists.nsrca.org?>] On Behalf Of Michael S.
Harrison
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 4:23 PM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation

Absolutely, these funds would require accountability and clarity. It would
be best for the funds to be maintained by the SIG in an Ama account.


-----Original Message-----
From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis
ts.nsrca.org>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bou
nces at lists.nsrca.org?>] On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 3:57 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation

+1 from me.  I could easily see requiring an FAI stamp to fly FAI at
+local
contests.  It would indeed go a long way toward helping us demonstrate
participation, though I think we need to see where that money goes..


Mark Atwood
Paragon Consulting, Inc.  |  President
5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
Phone: 440.684.3101 x102  |  Direct: 440-229-2502
Fax: 440.684.3102
mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com<mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com><mailto:mark.
atwood at paragon-inc.com<mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com?>>  |
www.paragon-inc.com<http://www.paragon-inc.com/<http://www.paragon-inc.com<h
ttp://www.paragon-inc.com/>>





On Mar 13, 2013, at 4:47 PM, "Michael S. Harrison"
<drmikedds at sbcglobal.net<mailto:drmikedds at sbcglobal.net><mailto:drmikedds at sb
cglobal.net<mailto:drmikedds at sbcglobal.net?>>> wrote:

My thoughts on this would be to make this the responsibility of the USA/FAI
community.  It would probably require the blessing of AMA but  a way to do
this is to require the FAI stamp to fly any AMA sanctioned competition with
FAI as one of the events.  At the Nats require a $50 fee to fly semis and
beyond.  Typically, anyone that flies well enough to make the semis is a
committed competitor and is willing and typically understands the need to
charge for the privilege of flying at that level.  This would also resolve
the issue of number of flyers committed to the FAI program.

Understandably, because AMA is overwhelmed by non competition hobbyists and
FAI really doesn't earnestly seek our input and the USA spends far more than
anyone else to support FAI, the powers at AMA have little interest is paying
big bucks for F3A, particularly since the competitors will not support its
own program.  It is sad that many competitors that have more than enough
money will make no real effort or even avoid the chance to help in some way.
Therefore, the typical solution would be to make financial needs be met by
fees of some sort.

If I were a non FAI competitor, and I was at one time, I would be more than
happy to see NSRCA support the FAI program.

In my view it is an across the board issue.

regards

Mike

From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis
ts.nsrca.org><mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bo
unces at lis?>
ts.nsrca.org<http://ts.nsrca.org>>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:discussion-bounces at l
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:discussion-bounces at l
?>
ists.nsrca.org<http://ists.nsrca.org>>] On Behalf Of Keith Hoard
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 12:58 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation

Or just charge the lower class guys more and tell them "Its for your own
good" . . .

From: Joe Lachowski<mailto:jlachow at hotmail.com<mailto:jlachow at hotmail.com?>>
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 12:29 PM
To: NSRCA Discussion
List<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.n
srca.org?>>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation

Hmmm!. Sounds like another justification for going totally webbased for the
Kfactor. Surely, the mailing saved could cover all or part of the cost?

> From:
atwoodm at paragon-inc.com<mailto:atwoodm at paragon-inc.com><mailto:atwoodm at parag
on-inc.com<mailto:atwoodm at paragon-inc.com?>>
> To:
nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><ma
ilto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.or
g?>>
> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:02:49 -0400
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation
>
> Correct, it's $50.
>
> But we're making this more than it needs to be. We're talking about
$1000/annually that's needed to send a rep to the CIAM meetings. With our
membership that's less than a $1 a person. This should almost be part of our
charter. I realize that AMA pattern has a life outside of FAI, but AMA
Pattern was born from FAI (not the other way around) and will truly lose
it's direction without it. Maybe not immediately, but over time.
>
> Participation in the FAI program is necessary to continue to get AMA
funding to help support our USA team.something that I do think the AMA
should, and will continue to do provided that there is adequate support.
It's almost a separate issue.
>
> -M
> Mark Atwood
> Paragon Consulting, Inc. | President
> 5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
> Phone: 440.684.3101 x102 | Direct: 440-229-2502
> Fax: 440.684.3102
>
mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com<mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com><mailto:mark.
atwood at paragon-inc.com><mailto:mark<mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com><mail
to:mark?>.
atwood at paragon-inc.com<mailto:atwood at paragon-inc.com>> |
www.paragon-inc.com<http://www.paragon-inc.com><http://www.paragon-inc.com/<
http://www.paragon-inc.com<http://www.paragon-inc.com><http://www.paragon-in
c.com/>>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mar 13, 2013, at 10:25 AM, Jon Lowe
<jonlowe at aol.com<mailto:jonlowe at aol.com><mailto:jonlowe at aol.com><mailto:jonl
owe at aol.com<mailto:jonlowe at aol.com><mailto:jonlowe at aol.com?>>> wrote:
>
> The current cost of the FAI stamp is $50. Just call Colleen Pierce at
> AMA
and she will sign you up!!
> Jon
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jon Lowe
<jonlowe at aol.com<mailto:jonlowe at aol.com><mailto:jonlowe at aol.com><mailto:jonl
owe at aol.com<mailto:jonlowe at aol.com><mailto:jonlowe at aol.com?>>>
> To: nsrca-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><m
ailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><m<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrc
a.org><m?>
ailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.o
rg>>>
> Sent: Wed, Mar 13, 2013 9:18 am
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation
>
> John,
> The last F3A team trial cost $170 per flier which I beleive was over
> and
above Nats entry. The number of pilots that sign up for the trial is what
AMA uses as part of the formula to see what teams they will support for
World Championships. They also use performance at previous WC's in the
formula. Mark Atwood has the details. I beleive Mark told me that if Andrew
had not made the podium at the last WC, that we would have fallen below the
threshold for AMA support for this year's WC.
>
> I will check with AMA on the cost of the FAI stamp.
> Jon
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Fuqua
<johnfuqua at embarqmail.com<mailto:johnfuqua at embarqmail.com><mailto:johnfuqua@
embarqmail.com><mailto:johnfuqua@<mailto:johnfuqua at embarqmail.com><mailto:jo
hnfuqua@?>
embarqmail.com<http://embarqmail.com>>>
> To: 'General pattern discussion'
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><m
ailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><m<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrc
a.org><m?>
ailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.o
rg>>>
> Sent: Tue, Mar 12, 2013 8:42 pm
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation
>
>
> If it's a numbers thing what if everybody just paid the for an FAI stamp.
I
> used to buy one long ago when I flew in Team selection events. I do
> not think it is very expensive. Anybody know what it the currently costs?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis
ts.nsrca.org><mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bo
unces at lis?>
ts.nsrca.org<http://ts.nsrca.org>><mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsr
ca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org?>>
>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:discussion-bounces at l
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:discussion-bounces at l
?>
ists.nsrca.org<http://ists.nsrca.org>><mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists
.nsrca.org<mailto:discu<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mail
to:discu?>
ssion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:ssion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>>?>] On
Behalf Of Atwood, Mark
> Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 7:12 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation
>
> We can run off and vilify the AMA over this, but I think some of the
reality
> is that there are soooooo many niche's in the FAI program that trying
> to determine how to completely support them all is financially
> impractical in this day and age. Yes, we're one of the pillars, but
> our total participation at the FAI level is actually VERY low. I think
> a total of 10 people this past cycle. That in itself is a problem, but
> regardless, it become difficult for the AMA to support sending a rep
> for every FAI
program
> that has 10 paying participants. I just checked.. .we had 11
> participants in 2012 and 11 in 2010. Control line scale had about the
same.
>
> We should strongly consider trying to work this into the NSRCA budget
> in some way. It's important to us collectively, regardless of the
> total
number
> that actually pay for an FAI stamp. They lead the program that we
> follow, and establish all the rules for our international
> competitions. It's important that we (the NSRCA) have a voice at the
table.
>
> Just my $0.02
>
>
> Mark Atwood
> Paragon Consulting, Inc. | President
> 5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
> Phone: 440.684.3101 x102 | Direct: 440-229-2502
> Fax: 440.684.3102
>
mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com<mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com><mailto:mark.
atwood at paragon-inc.com><mailto:mark<mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com><mail
to:mark?>.
atwood at paragon-inc.com<mailto:atwood at paragon-inc.com>><mailto:mark.atwood at pa
ragon-inc.com<http://paragon-in<mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com<http://pa
ragon-in?>
c.com<http://c.com>><mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com<http://paragon-inc.c
om<mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com<http://paragon-inc.com?>>?>> |
>
www.paragon-inc.com<http://www.paragon-inc.com><http://www.paragon-inc.com/<
http://www.paragon-inc.com<http://www.paragon-inc.com><http://www.paragon-in
c.com/>>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mar 12, 2013, at 7:55 PM, Derek Koopowitz
>
<derekkoopowitz at gmail.com<mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com><mailto:derekkoopo
witz at gmail.com><mailto:derekkoopo<mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com><mailto:de
rekkoopo?>
witz at gmail.com<mailto:witz at gmail.com>><mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com<http:
//gmail.com><mailto:der<mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com<http://gmail.com><ma
ilto:der?>
ekkoopowitz at gmail.com<mailto:ekkoopowitz at gmail.com><http://gmail.com>?>>>
wrote:
>
> Airfare alone is about $1100 and then there is food/accommodations for
> 3 nights, train fare from Zurich to Lausanne and back... I would
> estimate at least another $800 everything else.
>
> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:39 PM, Peter Vogel
>
<vogel.peter at gmail.com<mailto:vogel.peter at gmail.com><mailto:vogel.peter at gmai
l.com><mailto:vogel.peter at gmai<mailto:vogel.peter at gmail.com><mailto:vogel.pe
ter at gmai?>
l.com<http://l.com>><mailto:vogel.peter at gmail.com<http://gmail.com><mailto:v
ogel.peter at gma<mailto:vogel.peter at gmail.com<http://gmail.com><mailto:vogel.p
eter at gma?>
il.com<http://il.com><http://gmail.com>?>>> wrote:
> How much would you need?
>
> And Ron, I think that's exactly what it is. It's part of why I voted
> against Bob Brown, he said as much in his campaign statement...
>
> Peter+
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Derek Koopowitz
>
<derekkoopowitz at gmail.com<mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com><mailto:derekkoopo
witz at gmail.com><mailto:derekkoopo<mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com><mailto:de
rekkoopo?>
witz at gmail.com<mailto:witz at gmail.com>><mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com<http:
//gmail.com><mailto:der<mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com<http://gmail.com><ma
ilto:der?>
ekkoopowitz at gmail.com<mailto:ekkoopowitz at gmail.com><http://gmail.com>?>>>
wrote:
> That is true, Bill. I was sent a letter by the AMA stating that travel
> expenses would not be paid for and that I could attend if I paid for
myself
> or the NSRCA paid for me to attend.
>
> I can only believe that this will only further isolate us (F3A) from
> the rest of the world. Yes, I'm still the rep to CIAM but face-to-face
meetings
> accomplish so much more than through email. I had built up a great
> relationship with the movers/shakers in F3A and now I feel that it
> will be in jeopardy.
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 3:49 PM, Bill's Email
>
<silentav8r at cox.net<mailto:silentav8r at cox.net><mailto:silentav8r at cox.net><ma
ilto:silentav8r at cox.net><ma<mailto:silentav8r at cox.net><mailto:silentav8r at cox
.net><ma?>
ilto:silentav8r at cox.net<mailto:silentav8r at cox.net><http://cox.net><mailto:si
lentav8r at cox.net<http://cox
.net>?>>> wrote:
> Thought you folks might be interested what is going on in the soaring
> side of the FAI world. A proposal to condense several events, soaring
> being one of them, has been submitted. The soaring community in the US
> is taking notice that AMA is not funding the individual area reps to
> go to the meeting, so the soaring folks have decided to try to fund it
themselves.
> Here's the thread:
>
> http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=24403409&postcount=1
>
> This is the document that has gotten them to do this:
>
>
http://lomcovak.cz/wp_eng/f3b/2013/03/f3b-world-championship-in-future-cance
> led/
>
> F3A is mentioned, but only in that it should remain as is. F3M is
> talked about as a target for elimination. Again, this is a proposal
> submitted for consideration.
>
> Thought you might find it interesting. I recall reading that our US
> F3A
CIAM
> rep was also told by AMA that they would not fund his travel.
>
> Bill in OC
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> --
> Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training
> Santa Clara County Model Aircraft Skypark
> [http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7163/6513778381_5569cc985d_m.jpg]
>
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