[NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation

[Derek Koopowitz]

I'd be for this as well... but we definitely need to ensure it goes to the
F3A program and not into the general FAI fund.

On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Atwood, Mark <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>wrote:

> +1 from me.  I could easily see requiring an FAI stamp to fly FAI at local
> contests.  It would indeed go a long way toward helping us demonstrate
> participation, though I think we need to see where that money goes….
>
>
> Mark Atwood
> Paragon Consulting, Inc.  |  President
> 5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
> Phone: 440.684.3101 x102  |  Direct: 440-229-2502
> Fax: 440.684.3102
> mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com<mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com>  |
> www.paragon-inc.com<http://www.paragon-inc.com/>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mar 13, 2013, at 4:47 PM, "Michael S. Harrison" <
> drmikedds at sbcglobal.net<mailto:drmikedds at sbcglobal.net>> wrote:
>
> My thoughts on this would be to make this the responsibility of the
> USA/FAI community.  It would probably require the blessing of AMA but  a
> way to do this is to require the FAI stamp to fly any AMA sanctioned
> competition with FAI as one of the events.  At the Nats require a $50 fee
> to fly semis and beyond.  Typically, anyone that flies well enough to make
> the semis is a committed competitor and is willing and typically
> understands the need to charge for the privilege of flying at that level.
>  This would also resolve the issue of number of flyers committed to the FAI
> program.
>
> Understandably, because AMA is overwhelmed by non competition hobbyists
> and FAI really doesn't earnestly seek our input and the USA spends far more
> than anyone else to support FAI, the powers at AMA have little interest is
> paying big bucks for F3A, particularly since the competitors will not
> support its own program.  It is sad that many competitors that have more
> than enough money will make no real effort or even avoid the chance to help
> in some way.  Therefore, the typical solution would be to make financial
> needs be met by fees of some sort.
>
> If I were a non FAI competitor, and I was at one time, I would be more
> than happy to see NSRCA support the FAI program.
>
> In my view it is an across the board issue.
>
> regards
>
> Mike
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:
> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> [mailto:
> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:
> discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>] On Behalf Of Keith Hoard
> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 12:58 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation
>
> Or just charge the lower class guys more and tell them “Its for your own
> good” . . .
>
> From: Joe Lachowski<mailto:jlachow at hotmail.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 12:29 PM
> To: NSRCA Discussion List<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation
>
> Hmmm!. Sounds like another justification for going totally webbased for
> the Kfactor. Surely, the mailing saved could cover all or part of the cost?
>
> > From: atwoodm at paragon-inc.com<mailto:atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
> > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:02:49 -0400
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation
> >
> > Correct, it's $50.
> >
> > But we're making this more than it needs to be. We're talking about
> $1000/annually that's needed to send a rep to the CIAM meetings. With our
> membership that's less than a $1 a person. This should almost be part of
> our charter. I realize that AMA pattern has a life outside of FAI, but AMA
> Pattern was born from FAI (not the other way around) and will truly lose
> it's direction without it. Maybe not immediately, but over time.
> >
> > Participation in the FAI program is necessary to continue to get AMA
> funding to help support our USA team…something that I do think the AMA
> should, and will continue to do provided that there is adequate support.
> It's almost a separate issue.
> >
> > -M
> > Mark Atwood
> > Paragon Consulting, Inc. | President
> > 5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
> > Phone: 440.684.3101 x102 | Direct: 440-229-2502
> > Fax: 440.684.3102
> > mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com<mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com><mailto:
> mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com> | www.paragon-inc.com<
> http://www.paragon-inc.com><http://www.paragon-inc.com/>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mar 13, 2013, at 10:25 AM, Jon Lowe <jonlowe at aol.com<mailto:
> jonlowe at aol.com><mailto:jonlowe at aol.com>> wrote:
> >
> > The current cost of the FAI stamp is $50. Just call Colleen Pierce at
> AMA and she will sign you up!!
> > Jon
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jon Lowe <jonlowe at aol.com<mailto:jonlowe at aol.com><mailto:
> jonlowe at aol.com>>
> > To: nsrca-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> >>
> > Sent: Wed, Mar 13, 2013 9:18 am
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation
> >
> > John,
> > The last F3A team trial cost $170 per flier which I beleive was over and
> above Nats entry. The number of pilots that sign up for the trial is what
> AMA uses as part of the formula to see what teams they will support for
> World Championships. They also use performance at previous WC's in the
> formula. Mark Atwood has the details. I beleive Mark told me that if Andrew
> had not made the podium at the last WC, that we would have fallen below the
> threshold for AMA support for this year's WC.
> >
> > I will check with AMA on the cost of the FAI stamp.
> > Jon
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: John Fuqua <johnfuqua at embarqmail.com<mailto:
> johnfuqua at embarqmail.com><mailto:johnfuqua at embarqmail.com>>
> > To: 'General pattern discussion' <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
> > Sent: Tue, Mar 12, 2013 8:42 pm
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation
> >
> >
> > If it's a numbers thing what if everybody just paid the for an FAI
> stamp. I
> > used to buy one long ago when I flew in Team selection events. I do not
> > think it is very expensive. Anybody know what it the currently costs?
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:
> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:
> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
> > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:
> discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:
> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:
> discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>?>] On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 7:12 PM
> > To: General pattern discussion
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation
> >
> > We can run off and vilify the AMA over this, but I think some of the
> reality
> > is that there are soooooo many niche's in the FAI program that trying to
> > determine how to completely support them all is financially impractical
> in
> > this day and age. Yes, we're one of the pillars, but our total
> > participation at the FAI level is actually VERY low. I think a total of
> 10
> > people this past cycle. That in itself is a problem, but regardless, it
> > become difficult for the AMA to support sending a rep for every FAI
> program
> > that has 10 paying participants. I just checked.. .we had 11 participants
> > in 2012 and 11 in 2010. Control line scale had about the same.
> >
> > We should strongly consider trying to work this into the NSRCA budget in
> > some way. It's important to us collectively, regardless of the total
> number
> > that actually pay for an FAI stamp. They lead the program that we follow,
> > and establish all the rules for our international competitions. It's
> > important that we (the NSRCA) have a voice at the table.
> >
> > Just my $0.02
> >
> >
> > Mark Atwood
> > Paragon Consulting, Inc. | President
> > 5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
> > Phone: 440.684.3101 x102 | Direct: 440-229-2502
> > Fax: 440.684.3102
> > mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com<mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com><mailto:
> mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com><mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com<
> http://paragon-inc.com><mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com<
> http://paragon-inc.com>?>> |
> > www.paragon-inc.com<http://www.paragon-inc.com><
> http://www.paragon-inc.com/>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mar 12, 2013, at 7:55 PM, Derek Koopowitz
> > <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com<mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com><mailto:
> derekkoopowitz at gmail.com><mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com<http://gmail.com
> ><mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com<http://gmail.com>?>>> wrote:
> >
> > Airfare alone is about $1100 and then there is food/accommodations for 3
> > nights, train fare from Zurich to Lausanne and back... I would estimate
> at
> > least another $800 everything else.
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:39 PM, Peter Vogel
> > <vogel.peter at gmail.com<mailto:vogel.peter at gmail.com><mailto:
> vogel.peter at gmail.com><mailto:vogel.peter at gmail.com<http://gmail.com
> ><mailto:vogel.peter at gmail.com<http://gmail.com>?>>> wrote:
> > How much would you need?
> >
> > And Ron, I think that's exactly what it is. It's part of why I voted
> > against Bob Brown, he said as much in his campaign statement...
> >
> > Peter+
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Derek Koopowitz
> > <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com<mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com><mailto:
> derekkoopowitz at gmail.com><mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com<http://gmail.com
> ><mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com<http://gmail.com>?>>> wrote:
> > That is true, Bill. I was sent a letter by the AMA stating that travel
> > expenses would not be paid for and that I could attend if I paid for
> myself
> > or the NSRCA paid for me to attend.
> >
> > I can only believe that this will only further isolate us (F3A) from the
> > rest of the world. Yes, I'm still the rep to CIAM but face-to-face
> meetings
> > accomplish so much more than through email. I had built up a great
> > relationship with the movers/shakers in F3A and now I feel that it will
> be
> > in jeopardy.
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 3:49 PM, Bill's Email
> > <silentav8r at cox.net<mailto:silentav8r at cox.net><mailto:silentav8r at cox.net
> ><mailto:silentav8r at cox.net<http://cox.net><mailto:silentav8r at cox.net<
> http://cox.net>?>>> wrote:
> > Thought you folks might be interested what is going on in the soaring
> side
> > of the FAI world. A proposal to condense several events, soaring being
> one
> > of them, has been submitted. The soaring community in the US is taking
> > notice that AMA is not funding the individual area reps to go to the
> > meeting, so the soaring folks have decided to try to fund it themselves.
> > Here's the thread:
> >
> > http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=24403409&postcount=1
> >
> > This is the document that has gotten them to do this:
> >
> >
> http://lomcovak.cz/wp_eng/f3b/2013/03/f3b-world-championship-in-future-cance
> > led/
> >
> > F3A is mentioned, but only in that it should remain as is. F3M is talked
> > about as a target for elimination. Again, this is a proposal submitted
> for
> > consideration.
> >
> > Thought you might find it interesting. I recall reading that our US F3A
> CIAM
> > rep was also told by AMA that they would not fund his travel.
> >
> > Bill in OC
> >
> >
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> > --
> > Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training
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