[NSRCA-discussion] Team Selection - was 2013 NATS dates
Atwood, Mark
atwoodm at paragon-inc.com
Wed Feb 27 16:48:33 AKST 2013
Ok, I didn't mean cause a stir but since there's interest in the subject I'm going to take the podium for a moment since I'm in the thick of things as this years Team manager.
First of all… THANK YOU to virtually everyone in our sport because the support we DO get is fantastic.
Some thoughts:
1) I'd like to help the NSRCA form an ongoing team fund raising committee. My biggest problem in taking on this role was the feeling that I'm starting from scratch. Rather than have 2 years of planning and fund raising, with established mechanisms for doing so, we start with virtually nothing. I have a LOT of thoughts about this, but too many to go on about here. I'm happy to be a founding member of that committee, but would welcome volunteers to help and work on things in the off year when no team manager exists (the TM is chosen by the team AFTER the selection contest.)
2) I've suggested to the NSRCA to add a check box on dues renewal for contributing a donation to the team. I think this is an easy ask and no pressure
3) The AMA spends more money on the FAI program than you can possible imagine. Our dues to FAI alone are in the hundreds of thousands just to belong. It's nuts. The AMA is more pro competition than their actions would lead you to believe, but at the end of the day, they have bills to pay and have to cater to the masses.
4) A combined Nats / Team selection I personally think is great and has been well executed of late. Cost is virtually zero (so ALL of the entry fees support the team rather than pay for the event) and we see a nice turnout from the best in the world as a result. Per my original post, we just need to make the FAI gang aware that formally participating (i.e. paying the entry fee) is critical to our funding from the AMA. Lowering the team trial fee would go a LONG way toward making that happen, along with some publicity to make everyone aware of the problem.
5) Contest fund raising. I'd love to start a tradition of holding a 50/50 raffle at contests with the proceeds going to the team fund. Each event wouldn't raise a ton, but even $50 across 50 Contests over 2 years would be a $5000 boost and help a ton.
6) Better verbal and purchasing support of those that do sponsor us. It's great to put their logo's on the web site ( www.teamUSAF3A.com<http://www.teamUSAF3A.com>) but if we don't make it clear that we collectively appreciate their support…well, it will stop. Obviously it's important that we buy from them, but EQUALLY important is simply thanking them! If you see these groups at trade shows (Toledo, Ontario, Ramm, etc) make a comment that you appreciate the support of our niche. It goes a long way.
Last thing I want to share is our budget for this year. I get a lot of comments questioning the amount we're trying to raise…it's not a secret, so let me lay it out.
The team consists of 10 people (4 pilots, 4 callers, a Team Mascot ..er manager, and asst). We'll be in SA for 18 days in total, so that's 180/person/days food and lodging.
Airfare Total - $22,100 (We're still working on reducing this, but it won't change much)
Lodging est $60/person-day * 180 $10,800
Food est $35/Person-day * 180 $6,300
Transport per plane $400 * 8 $3,200
In country Transportation $8,400 (This is NUTS, but accurate. Vehicles to carry 10 people with 8 planes are expensive)
Entry Fees:
4 Pilots @ $788 $3,152
4 Callers @ $131 $ 524
1 Team Manager @ $459 $ 459
1 Assist @ $131 $ 131
Team Apparel $100 * 10 $1000 (Nice to have)
"Surprise" budget $3000
Total $59,066
The surprise budget is on the advice of previous team managers for on site issues. As it is I'm scrambling to find locals in SA to help us with generators, chairs, and other items we can't reasonably take with us.
As you can see, when you multiply everything out…it's pricey. And while SA is one of the pricier trips, anywhere in Europe or really the world wouldn't be a lot cheaper.
Mark Atwood
Paragon Consulting, Inc. | President
5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
Phone: 440.684.3101 x102 | Direct: 440-229-2502
Fax: 440.684.3102
mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com<mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com> | www.paragon-inc.com<http://www.paragon-inc.com/>
On Feb 27, 2013, at 7:43 PM, Dave Lockhart <DaveL322 at comcast.net<mailto:DaveL322 at comcast.net>> wrote:
Correct. 13 entrants….kinda hard to pay for a stand alone event with 13 entrants.
Regards,
Dave
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>] On Behalf Of Jon Lowe
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 7:12 PM
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Team Selection - was 2013 NATS dates
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the last separate team selection we had was at Triple Tree in SC just after the turn of the century. I know of nothing that prevents us from having a separate team trial, but that would involve yet another contest to organize, and more cost. Frankly, I personally prefer having the team trials at the Nats, because we get all of the top FAI fliers to attend at least once every two years. Given the proximity of this years Nats to the dates of this years WC, we will likely not see our team members at the Nats, and they will be missed.
Jon
-----Original Message-----
From: Ronald Van Putte <vanputter at gmail.com<mailto:vanputter at gmail.com>>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
Sent: Wed, Feb 27, 2013 5:42 pm
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Team Selection - was 2013 NATS dates
I remember being CD of the F3A Team Selection contest back in 1991 at Duke Field
(part of Eglin AFB, FL). There were 54 F3A competitors.
It was the last time Rhett Miller competed in an F3A Team Selection. He used an
airplane borrowed from Ron Chidgey.
Ron
On Feb 27, 2013, at 5:34 PM, Dave Burton wrote:
> I seem to remember back a lot of years ago the FAI Team Selection stamp fee
> was $10.00 and lots of guys (myself included) paid it just to be part of
> helping. At $170.00 I wouldn't pay it. I could be wrong about the amount,
> and the pool of FAI flyers is much smaller so perhaps there wouldn't be muh
> money generater if it was significantly lower.
> Dave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org?>] On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark
> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 6:26 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Team Selection - was 2013 NATS dates
>
> Hey Keith,
>
> I appreciate the comment actually as I sort of feel the same way. I've made
> sure that EVERYONE on the team is working actively in the fund raising
> (Trading effort and labor for money) and at the end, all will very likely
> still be paying for a portion of their trip. Talking with Jason and
> Andrew, each WC has cost them $3000-$5000 out of pocket to go, over and
> above what was donated. We're working hard to reduce that number but it's
> a reality.
>
> And your correct, no one should expect a free trip. We're just working to
> help these guys represent us in our chosen hobby as the best we have.
>
> Support is appreciated.not expected.
>
> Mark Atwood
> Paragon Consulting, Inc. | President
> 5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
> Phone: 440.684.3101 x102 | Direct: 440-229-2502
> Fax: 440.684.3102
> mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com<mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com> | www.paragon-inc.com<http://www.paragon-inc.com>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 27, 2013, at 5:58 PM, Keith Hoard <klhoard at hotmail.com<mailto:klhoard at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>
> What makes you think that us lower class guys care to "support" the FAI
> team? Some of you make it sound like we owe y'all a free trip.
>
> Keith Hoard
> Collierville, TN
>
> On Feb 27, 2013, at 16:28, "Chuck Hochhalter" <cahochhalter at yahoo.com<mailto:cahochhalter at yahoo.com>>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> We could add 5 bucks to every local contest entry and donate that to FAI.
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Feb 27, 2013, at 4:25 PM, Archie Stafford <astafford at md.metrocast.net<mailto:astafford at md.metrocast.net>>
> wrote:
>>
>>> Mark,
>>>
>>> Another option is to adjust the entry fee for all classes. Maybe 25.00
> per and all of that goes to the team. Would be easy enough to do.
>>>
>>> Arch
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy ST III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
>>>
>>>
>>> -------- Original message --------
>>> From: "Atwood, Mark" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com<mailto:atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>>
>>> Date:
>>> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Team Selection - was 2013 NATS dates
>>>
>>>
>>> As a side to that.
>>>
>>> We need to have a serious discussion about the team selection and our
> "Official" participation levels. FAI GUYS!!!! We NEED many more of you to
> sign up for the team selection event (be it part of the Nats or otherwise in
> 2014) if we're going to continue to get the same level of funding that we
> get now from the AMA. To do that, I think we need to drastically lower the
> price tag. The price tag ($170) is reminiscent of holding a separate event
> and paying for the judges to come for 4 days and judge. That's no longer
> an expense burden that the selection contest bears.
>>>
>>> The AMA has made "participation" a critical point factor in determining
> the level of financial support that each team receives. We don't get a lot
> of money, but they do pay for the World Championship entry fees ($900
> /pilot, $500 /team manager, $150 /caller ) which is a lot, and they help
> with some of the hotel bill. It's a fraction of what we need, but it's
> still a big help. For this year's WC's it's about $7800 of the $60K we'll
> need. But if we don't increase our participation, we'll lose it.
>>>
>>> This past Nats we had 30+ FAI flyers. but less than 10 participated in
> the team trial..meaning they paid the entry fee. Admittedly, I was one who
> did not. I finished 11th, but that's a far cry from top 3, so spending $170
> "Just to participate" didn't seem like a good value proposition. But if we
> can lower the cost to say $30, or something reasonable, then I would
> participate simply to support the team (that's where the entry fee money
> goes by the way.all of it) especially knowing that it will motivate the AMA
> to continue their funding.
>>>
>>> I'll hammer this home more next year when it's more relevant, but thought
> I'd chime in now :)
>>>
>>> Please feel free to return to your regularly scheduled conversation.
>>>
>>>
>>> Mark Atwood
>>> Paragon Consulting, Inc. | President
>>> 5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
>>> Phone: 440.684.3101 x102 | Direct: 440-229-2502
>>> Fax: 440.684.3102
>>> mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com<mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com><mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com<mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com?>> |
> www.paragon-inc.com<http://www.paragon-inc.com/<http://www.paragon-inc.com%3chttp:/www.paragon-inc.com/>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 27, 2013, at 4:20 PM, Budd Engineering
> <jerry at buddengineering.com<mailto:jerry at buddengineering.com><mailto:jerry at buddengineering.com<mailto:jerry at buddengineering.com?>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Or a LOT easier because it's gotten so small. It's occurred to some of
> us over the past several years that you could hold the US Team Trials at a
> good local field and still have an as good, if not better, team selection
> contest as we do now.
>>>
>>> Incidentally, when I mentioned this to a couple of the AMA people at the
> show in Ontario last month it was made quite clear that the "powers that be"
> in AMA have absolutely no interest in allowing the Team Selection contest to
> ever be held anywhere but at the AMA site in Muncie. Go Figure.
>>>
>>> -0
>>>
>>> Jerry
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Feb 27, 2013, at 10:59 AM, "Dave Burton"
> <burtona at atmc.net<mailto:burtona at atmc.net><mailto:burtona at atmc.net<mailto:burtona at atmc.net?>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Amen +2
>>>
>>> As pattern participation continues to shrink the possibility of having
> the resources to hold the Nats at a different venue gets even more
> difficult.
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> From:
> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis?>
> ts.nsrca.org<http://ts.nsrca.org>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org?>] On Behalf Of
> John Fuqua
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 10:54 AM
>>> To: 'General pattern discussion'
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2013 NATS dates
>>>
>>> AMEN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>>
>>> From:
> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis?>
> ts.nsrca.org<http://ts.nsrca.org>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org?>] On Behalf Of
> Vicente "Vince" Bortone
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 9:43 AM
>>> To: General pattern discussion
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2013 NATS dates
>>>
>>> +1
>>> Vicente "Vince" Bortone
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: "mike mueller" <mups1953 at yahoo.com<mailto:mups1953 at yahoo.com><mailto:mups1953 at yahoo.com<mailto:mups1953 at yahoo.com?>>>
>>> To: "Archie Stafford"
> <astafford at md.metrocast.net<mailto:astafford at md.metrocast.net><mailto:astafford at md.metrocast.net<mailto:astafford at md.metrocast.net?>>>, "General
> pattern discussion"
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org?>>>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 9:36:31 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2013 NATS dates
>>> OK I want to play devil's advocate.
>>> What is all this talk about an off site Nats about?
>>> Is it that we need to move it around to allow new people to participate?
> Or is it the changes to the schedule that basically takes away a half day of
> practice?
>>> In my opinion it's not that big of a deal. Moving the Nats off site would
> be a huge endeavor. Who has the resources, energy and financial where with
> all to achieve this?
>>> I doubt that we could pull it off. Unless a lot of effort was put forth
> to make it happen.
>>> I think the AMA has supported us in a decent manner.
>>> Also look at the current BOD of the AMA and you'll see that pattern is
> well represented with more than our share. We also have Muncie employess who
> are pattern fliers. We have friends in high places and I think we're doing
> pretty well.
>>> I'm luck enough to go to the Muncie facility for 3 contests every year.
> I'm amazed at the support we get from the AMA staff every time we go there.
>>> Things could be a lot worse. Thanks, Mike Mueller
>>>
>>> --- On Mon, 2/25/13, Archie Stafford
> <astafford at md.metrocast.net<mailto:astafford at md.metrocast.net><mailto:astafford at md.metrocast.net<mailto:astafford at md.metrocast.net?>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> From: Archie Stafford
> <astafford at md.metrocast.net<mailto:astafford at md.metrocast.net><mailto:astafford at md.metrocast.net<mailto:astafford at md.metrocast.net?>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2013 NATS dates
>>> To:
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org?>>
>>> Date: Monday, February 25, 2013, 8:44 PM
>>> IMAC has been warned. They already lost one day from a few years ago.
>>>
>>> Also, years ago I would've agreed. Today though the AMA has a lot more
> park flyers and sport flyers than any other discipline . Most of my club,
> with 86 members now flies smaller electrics. Many of the younger kids would
> rather fly foamies than anything. Pattern, IMAC, and scale don't do anything
> for them. The younger members are just different. 3D and helis are much more
> exciting to them. Times have changed.
>>>
>>> Arch
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy ST III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
>>>
>>>
>>> -------- Original message --------
>>> From: Ron Hansen <rcpilot at wowway.com<mailto:rcpilot at wowway.com><mailto:rcpilot at wowway.com<mailto:rcpilot at wowway.com?>>>
>>> Date:
>>> To: vicenterc at comcast.net<mailto:vicenterc at comcast.net>,'General<mailto:vicenterc at comcast.net,'General<mailto:vicenterc at comcast.net,>>
> pattern discussion'
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org?>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2013 NATS dates
>>>
>>> What about IMAC they have less attendance at the NATS than us. With
> their attendance I'm surprised the AMA will even give them a week. Not that
> I'm suggesting they don't deserve a week. One of the issues I have with the
> NATS is that Intermediate and Advanced Pilots and those in MASTERS and FAI
> that don't make the cut don't get any more flights than a regular weekend
> contest. Perhaps more would attend if we offered every pilot 12 guaranteed
> flights. That would make it more likely that the west coasters would make
> the long trip to Muncie.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No one gets hooked on RC by watching someone fly a park flyer. You get
> hooked by watching someone go crazy with a heli or an IMAC plane or the
> graceful flying of a pattern plane or the speed/wow factor of a jet or the
> roar of a 4 engine B-17. These are all endeavors that are not associated
> with the typical AMA member. If the AMA thinks they can survive without
> these folks then let them try. What these groups need to do is stop
> supporting the AMA with their articles, photos, etc. They'll have nothing
> to draw the attention of new members. AMA membership will never be what it
> used to be because kids now a day are so much busier than they used to be
> and there are so many more thinks competing for their interest. We need to
> find a financially viable solution for both the NSRCA and the AMA not to
> mention all the other SIGS. Without the SIGS there would be no AMA.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From:
> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis?>
> ts.nsrca.org<http://ts.nsrca.org>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org?>] On Behalf Of
> vicenterc at comcast.net<mailto:vicenterc at comcast.net><mailto:vicenterc at comcast.net<mailto:vicenterc at comcast.net?>>
>>> Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 6:20 PM
>>> To: General pattern discussion
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2013 NATS dates
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Guys it is too early in the week to talk about good drinks. I got to
> work tomorrow.
>>> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Ronald Van Putte
> <vanputter at gmail.com<mailto:vanputter at gmail.com><http://us.mc1247.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vanputter
> @gmail.com<http://gmail.com>>>
>>> Sender:
> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org><http://us.mc1247.mail.yahoo.com/mc/
> compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>>
>>> Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 16:57:02
>>> To: General pattern
> discussion<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><http://us.mc1247.mail.yahoo.com/
> mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>>
>>> Reply-To: General pattern discussion
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><http://us.mc1247.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose
> ?to=nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2013 NATS dates
>>>
>>> For those who weren't there, we had several buses take us from the
> Tullahoma airport about 12 miles to the Jack Daniels' distillery for the
> "picnic". On the way back, there was a terrible thunderstorm. When I
> mentioned the storm to some attendee the next day, they said, "What
> thunderstorm?"
>>>
>>> BTW, what did they call that stuff they served? Was it Lynchburg
> Lemonade? It tasted wonderful and went down so smooth!
>>>
>>> Ron
>>>
>>> On Feb 25, 2013, at 4:48 PM, John Fuqua wrote:
>>>
>>>> At least that part you remember
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From:
> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org><http://us.mc1247.mail.yahoo.com/mc/
> compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>>
>>>>
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<http://us.mc1247.mail.yahoo<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org%3chttp://us.mc1247.mail.yahoo?>
> .com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>>] On Behalf Of
> Ronald Van
>>>> Putte
>>>> Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 4:47 PM
>>>> To: General pattern discussion
>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2013 NATS dates
>>>>
>>>> The bus ride back from the Jack Daniel's distillery was memorable!
>>>>
>>>> Ron
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 25, 2013, at 4:12 PM, Atwood, Mark wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Scott, I think Ron is correct on this one (biting my tongue as I voice
>>>> that!) Back then the NSRCA had no input what so ever. Obviously
> enough
>>>> was wrong with the way the AMA ran the event to create a complete
> boycott of
>>>> the nationals in lieu of the NPAC.
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter, has the nats every
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>> _______________________________________________
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