[NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest

Tue Aug 20 14:07:36 AKDT 2013

They should hide all the contestants from the judges and let them score the flight and not the flyer

From: klhoard at hotmail.com
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 16:03:54 -0500
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest

Hmmmm. . . . pedigree.  

So, have the Labra-Doodles score the German Shepherds and so forth . . 
.

Very interesting. . .

From: rcmaster199 at aol.com 
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 3:57 PM
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest

What oftentimes is referred to 
as Bias is more a Calibration issue that Bias, methinks...

20 judges from 20 countries who have no actual means of practicing the art 
of Judging in each others' countries, are bound to score very differently from 
one another, regardless of what the good book sez.

One way to counter the calibration (lack of I should say) issue is to have 
judges with a known pedigree in a team or a pool, similar to how other sports 
such as Figure Skating do it. The size of the team could be as many as 50, from 
a variety of countries, that are tasked to judge the various Finals competitions 
around the world. FAI pays the bill of course. New blood enters when their 
pedigree is proven

Regards

Matt

-----Original 
Message-----
From: Derek Koopowitz <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com>
To: 
'General pattern discussion' <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: 
Tue, Aug 20, 2013 11:39 am
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A 
contest

It is really 
hard to get all 20 judges to be biased especially when they come from all over… 
in the prelims, if one looks at the scores, there are 5 judges scoring and if 
the range is somewhat narrow on a maneuver then I really doubt there is bias or 
collusion – they are obviously seeing the same thing.  None of us were 
there to see what the conditions were like and based on what I’ve heard they 
were REALLY challenging… 

We flew in 25 
mph winds at the Nats this year, pretty much down the runway… and I know how 
challenging that was… I saw MANY good Masters pilots struggle (one’s that 
finished in the top 4 in Masters) with the box and a LOT of them were going out 
the box on the left side.  All the scores that I gave them were well 
deserved…

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org?] 
On Behalf Of Michael S. Harrison
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 
5:21 AM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: 
[NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest

biased 
amateurs,,,,

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] 
On Behalf Of Keith Hoard
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:28 
PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: 
[NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest

So basically the Team, AMA, sponsors, and various other 
contributors just spent $50,000 to get scored by a bunch of amateurs.  

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 19, 2013, at 17:07, 
"George Kennie" <geobet4evr at gmail.com> 
wrote:

  I think that many of these international judges have been 
  uptown most of the day and are familiar with the atmosphere that they are 
  operating in and it's potential to reward or penalize them for significant 
  discrepancies in their scoring awards.

  Possible mental bias exercises: " Let's see now, here 
  comes CPLR, (He's GOOD ! ), this is TBL scoring, I know that all the other 
  judges will grade him highly and if I don't want to stick out like a sore 
  thumb I'd better do likewise"

  Think that's too harsh? I don't think so. I know that 
  everybody thinks that I'm a nut case, but I don't care. I scored these guys in 
  Twenty Eleven and I saw 5 pilots who outpointed CPLR and I also witnessed the 
  surprise on his face when they proclaimed him the winner. Am I biased? I don't 
  think so. CPLR is a great guy to talk to. He and I had great conversations 
  regarding force arrangements and I found him to be a wonderful down to earth 
  all around terrific person, but this isn't a personality contest. Your mission 
  is to outpoint your opponents and according to my numbers he didn't do that. 
  Of course you can say that I know absolutely zero about judging, but that's an 
  opinion that would take some amount of verification. I say that my scores were 
  not TBL modified and possibly reflected more accurate raw numbers   

  I was convinced that the whole international panel could 
  have been classified as individuals who had met poor certification standards, 
  but could it be possible that TBL influenced the outcome in some way? 

  Nah!, I think I'm sticking to my original 
  conclusion.

  G.

  On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Stuart Chale <schale1 at verizon.net> wrote:
  Each Worlds the scoring always always causes me "to raise 
  an eyebrow"  I can't say surprises me because we have seen it before. For 
  most flyers the scores seem lower than we would expect.  Lower than they 
  would receive at the Nats never mind local contests.  Did Joseph really 
  deserve 6's on a half loop turnaround.  Did he have 60 degrees of error 
  or fly a half hexagon?  Are the Judges that much better than the rest of 
  us that they are seeing the errors that we don't?   Or are they 
  upping the bar with an unwritten rule ( 1 point / 5 degrees etc) .  Any 
  10's given out?
I know the top fliers are difficult to differentiate until 
  the finals and unknowns and usually it works out that the best flyer wins, I 
  just like to see the same criteria used at all contests.

Or maybe I am 
  not as good a judge as I think :)

Stuart C.

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