[NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest

Mon Aug 19 17:06:27 AKDT 2013

I was trying to stay away from this topic... My concern is the focus for our team. They read this stuff... The last thing a competitor need to worry about are little distractions in any sport...especially how they are being judged and if it cost them... 

Mark's job is to keep them focused.... if there is an issue... I believe it is his role to manage it...

Mark is doing a great job... pilots need to stay focused and put the best flight up every time...

For that reason... Public opinions about scoring and and judging should wait till afterwards.

Just my .02

Larry Diamond

Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S®4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: seefo at san.rr.com 
Date: 08/19/2013  7:47 PM  (GMT-06:00) 
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>,General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>,"Robert L. Beaubien" <rob at koolsoft.com> 
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest 

You'd be wrong. There are several who are questioning what's going on from several different countries. 

Sent from my android device.

-----Original Message-----
From: "Robert L. Beaubien" <rob at koolsoft.com>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 5:39 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest

You may have a point, but I don’t believe anyone here voicing these complaints are in South Africa watching.  I could be wrong about that, but I don’t believe I am.  And in the end, it still comes down to the competitors/helpers voicing a complaint down there while it still means something.

-           Robert Beaubien
-          District 7 Webmaster

"No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced."

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ronald Van Putte
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:22 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest

I don't agree. Valid complaints are just that.  I was the U.S. judge in 1995 at Kasaoka and many of the judges verbally told the scribes what their scores were.  I could could hear them and could not believe some of the scores I heard.  It was like we were judging a different flight.  There appeared to be an agenda that I was not privy to.  The Prelims were bad enough, but scoring went off the chart BAD in the finals.

Ron

On Aug 19, 2013, at 7:15 PM, Robert L. Beaubien wrote:

Thank you Ron.  The only ones that should be making these complaints are the competitors themselves.

-           Robert Beaubien
-          District 7 Webmaster

"No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced."

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ron Hansen
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 4:52 PM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest

Is this the right time to be complaining about the world judges?

I assume they have internet access and might get wind of these complaints no matter how legit they may be.

I think this type of discussion is best left for after the competition is over and maybe should never be discussed.

This isnâ€™t helping our team and may actually hurt them now or in the future because we sound like a bunch whiners and sore losers.

The world team knows what they are up against and they volunteered willingly.

Letâ€™s let the chips fall where they may.

We will never be able to prevent or statistically mitigate bias.

Many people from other counties are tired of the US seemingly winning everything and that is impossible to overcome.

Good luck to team USA.

Ron

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Burton
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 7:09 PM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest

Maybe it just proves that the best judges arenâ€™t very good.
Dave

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Keith Hoard
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:28 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest

So basically the Team, AMA, sponsors, and various other contributors just spent $50,000 to get scored by a bunch of amateurs.  

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 19, 2013, at 17:07, "George Kennie" <geobet4evr at gmail.com> wrote:

I think that many of these international judges have been uptown most of the day and are familiar with the atmosphere that they are operating in and it's potential to reward or penalize them for significant discrepancies in their scoring awards.

Possible mental bias exercises: " Let's see now, here comes CPLR, (He's GOOD ! ), this is TBL scoring, I know that all the other judges will grade him highly and if I don't want to stick out like a sore thumb I'd better do likewise"

Think that's too harsh? I don't think so. I know that everybody thinks that I'm a nut case, but I don't care. I scored these guys in Twenty Eleven and I saw 5 pilots who outpointed CPLR and I also witnessed the surprise on his face when  they proclaimed him the winner. Am I biased? I don't think so. CPLR is a great guy to talk to. He and I had great conversations regarding force arrangements and I found him to be a wonderful down to earth all around terrific person, but this isn't a personality  contest. Your mission is to outpoint your opponents and according to my numbers he didn't do that. Of course you can say that I know absolutely zero about judging, but that's an opinion that would take some amount of verification. I say that my scores were not TBL modified and possibly reflected more accurate raw numbers   

I was convinced that the whole international panel could have been classified as individuals who had met poor certification standards, but could it be possible that TBL influenced the outcome in some way?

Nah!, I think I'm sticking to my original conclusion.

G.

On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Stuart Chale <schale1 at verizon.net> wrote:
Each Worlds the scoring always always causes me "to raise an eyebrow"  I can't say surprises me because we have seen it before. For most flyers the scores seem lower than we would expect.  Lower than they would receive at the Nats never mind local contests.  Did Joseph really deserve 6's on a half loop turnaround.  Did he have 60 degrees of error or fly a half hexagon?  Are the Judges that much better than the rest of us that they are seeing the errors that we don't?   Or are they upping the bar with an unwritten rule ( 1 point / 5 degrees etc) .  Any 10's given out?
I know the top fliers are difficult to differentiate until the finals and unknowns and usually it works out that the best flyer wins, I just like to see the same criteria used at all contests.

Or maybe I am not as good a judge as I think :)

Stuart C.

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