[NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest

Mon Aug 19 16:38:59 AKDT 2013

If complaints about the scores can cause the scores to change that's a perfect example of the problem itself. 

This isn't some jingoistic complaint about how the USA pilots are being treated. It's a general issue across the board. 

I find it incredibly hard to believe a pilot flying at the WC can fly a simple 1/2 loop so poorly as to get scores of 5 or 6. This isn't some local contest with sportsman pilots still trying to figure out what the airplane is doing. These are the respective country's best pilots. Except for box or distance violations, something that simple should be damn near an automatic 8 at this level. 

Sent from my android device.

-----Original Message-----
From: Ronald Van Putte <vanputter at gmail.com>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest

I don't agree. Valid complaints are just that.  I was the U.S. judge in 1995 at Kasaoka and many of the judges verbally told the scribes what their scores were.  I could could hear them and could not believe some of the scores I heard.  It was like we were judging a different flight.  There appeared to be an agenda that I was not privy to.  The Prelims were bad enough, but scoring went off the chart BAD in the finals.

Ron

On Aug 19, 2013, at 7:15 PM, Robert L. Beaubien wrote:

> Thank you Ron.  The only ones that should be making these complaints are the competitors themselves.
>  
> -           Robert Beaubien
> -          District 7 Webmaster
>  
> "No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced."
>  
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ron Hansen
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 4:52 PM
> To: 'General pattern discussion'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>  
> Is this the right time to be complaining about the world judges?
>  
> I assume they have internet access and might get wind of these complaints no matter how legit they may be.
>  
> I think this type of discussion is best left for after the competition is over and maybe should never be discussed.
>  
> This isnâ€™t helping our team and may actually hurt them now or in the future because we sound like a bunch whiners and sore losers.
>  
> The world team knows what they are up against and they volunteered willingly.
>  
> Letâ€™s let the chips fall where they may.
>  
> We will never be able to prevent or statistically mitigate bias.
>  
> Many people from other counties are tired of the US seemingly winning everything and that is impossible to overcome.
>  
> Good luck to team USA.
>  
> Ron
>  
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Burton
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 7:09 PM
> To: 'General pattern discussion'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>  
> Maybe it just proves that the best judges arenâ€™t very good.
> Dave
>  
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Keith Hoard
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:28 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>  
> So basically the Team, AMA, sponsors, and various other contributors just spent $50,000 to get scored by a bunch of amateurs.  
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 17:07, "George Kennie" <geobet4evr at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I think that many of these international judges have been uptown most of the day and are familiar with the atmosphere that they are operating in and it's potential to reward or penalize them for significant discrepancies in their scoring awards.
>  
> Possible mental bias exercises: " Let's see now, here comes CPLR, (He's GOOD ! ), this is TBL scoring, I know that all the other judges will grade him highly and if I don't want to stick out like a sore thumb I'd better do likewise"
>  
> Think that's too harsh? I don't think so. I know that everybody thinks that I'm a nut case, but I don't care. I scored these guys in Twenty Eleven and I saw 5 pilots who outpointed CPLR and I also witnessed the surprise on his face when they proclaimed him the winner. Am I biased? I don't think so. CPLR is a great guy to talk to. He and I had great conversations regarding force arrangements and I found him to be a wonderful down to earth all around terrific person, but this isn't a personality contest. Your mission is to outpoint your opponents and according to my numbers he didn't do that. Of course you can say that I know absolutely zero about judging, but that's an opinion that would take some amount of verification. I say that my scores were not TBL modified and possibly reflected more accurate raw numbers   
>  
> I was convinced that the whole international panel could have been classified as individuals who had met poor certification standards, but could it be possible that TBL influenced the outcome in some way?
>  
> Nah!, I think I'm sticking to my original conclusion.
>  
> G.
>  
> 
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Stuart Chale <schale1 at verizon.net> wrote:
> Each Worlds the scoring always always causes me "to raise an eyebrow"  I can't say surprises me because we have seen it before. For most flyers the scores seem lower than we would expect.  Lower than they would receive at the Nats never mind local contests.  Did Joseph really deserve 6's on a half loop turnaround.  Did he have 60 degrees of error or fly a half hexagon?  Are the Judges that much better than the rest of us that they are seeing the errors that we don't?   Or are they upping the bar with an unwritten rule ( 1 point / 5 degrees etc) .  Any 10's given out?
> I know the top fliers are difficult to differentiate until the finals and unknowns and usually it works out that the best flyer wins, I just like to see the same criteria used at all contests.
> 
> Or maybe I am not as good a judge as I think :)
> 
> Stuart C.
> 
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