[NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposals

Mon Mar 12 16:36:36 AKDT 2012

Dave B,

If you believe your suggestion would yield a competitive advantage, why are
you not flying an older design with your current day electric equipment?
Would you not gain a great competitive advantage, and be well under the 11
lb limit?

Regards,

Dave L

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Burton
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 8:05 PM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposals

So Dave, You going to start flying an 8 ½ lb. Hebert Patriot or a 2M
something else from the late 1990’s with a YS 175 CDI? Based on your power
to weight ratio theory that combination would be much better than what you
have now.

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Lockhart
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 7:09 PM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposals

The benchmark for performance is being set in large part by the planes (and
equipment) with the best power to weight ratio.  That will never change at
any weight limit
..but, increased size will be matched by increased cost
(and size is currently limited by weight).

The best glow and electric examples are comparable for setting the
performance bar.  The last glow I flew took off at 10.5 pounds
.not much
different than my 10.25 pound electric now (which has better performance).

Dave L

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Burton
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 6:04 PM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposals

IMO you are dead wrong about the motivation for changing the weight limit.
At least for me, it’s about cost that buys me no advantage and the inequity
between EP and GP.

Every GP airplane takes off at 12 lbs + legally. In order to take off at 11
lbs with my EP plane I have to buy expensive Cf components, aftermarket
wings not part of the original plane, extremely low capacity batteries,
expensive CF props,  and on and on $$$ to make weight. And what advantage
does it buy me?

If the older 2M planes that weighted easily under 11 lbs were better flying
than current designs we would all be flying them. But they don’t fly as well
so we don’t use them anymore. Why would I want to fly one -  just to make 11
lbs cheaper? 

Dave

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Mark Atwood
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 11:36 AM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposals

Simply put, if SIZE was indeed the limiting factor, that would be the
constraint that people would be trying to adjust.  It's not.  People are
hitting the weight limit because they're trying to go bigger and bigger.  As
Dave pointed out, there are LOTS of FULL 2M planes that would come in under
10lbs, much less 11lbs,  from days of old. 

Mark Atwood

Paragon Consulting, Inc.  |  President

5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124 

Phone: 440.684.3101 x102  |  Fax: 440.684.3102

mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com  |  www.paragon-inc.com
<http://www.paragon-inc.com/> 

On Mar 11, 2012, at 11:14 AM, Dave Lockhart wrote:

I see lots of points below about why to NOT increase the weight limit.

With respect to the aircraft size being limited by size, that is simply not
the case.  If that were true, we’d still be flying 9 lb 78” long Prophecies
from 1998.  We aren’t, we are flying much larger volume BIGGER planes than
weigh more and cost more.  The history is very clear on this and easy enough
to research.  Size has not been and is still not the limiting factor.

I’m not hypothesizing about reductions in numbers being associated with
rules changes
..the history is very clear
.and most have never returned.

I think you are correct – if some of the “behavior” on this list were
evidenced in person, it would turn off new flyers.  However, I think much of
the “behavior” was literary license, exaggeration, etc to make a point(s).

Regards,

Dave L

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Peter Vogel
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 10:52 AM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposals

Weight limit increase:  Why is it a mistake?  Given the size limitations in
place, there's a practical limit on the wing loading above which the plane
is going to fly like crap, people who take care with their weight will have
an advantage, people who don't won't, but can fly their plane and compete.
It's easy to make weight even at relatively low cost given airframes like
the 2M Vanquish and the 2M Osiris.  If you are concerned about the
craftsmanship aspect of making weight with a hand-built plane, that horse
left the barn long ago since the builder of the model rule hasn't applied to
pattern as far back as I can find rules.  I have thought it a _little_
unfair that the fuel guys get to weigh in empty and the electric guys have
to weigh in with batteries in place, but I get why that's the case, and,
like I said, it's not hard to make weight.  For the guys who choose to
compete with a heavyweight plane, I don't doubt that as they learn more and
advance in the sport they'll tune their plane to compete well and the plane
will go on a diet or be replaced.

I'll be honest, I don't think the shrinkage (or growth) in competition is
due to any rules change, yes, there will be the folks for whom all change is
immediately bad and they may choose to leave, but I think if they truly
enjoy competition, they'll adapt and move on.  What fundamentally impacts
the growth (or not) of the sport is the experience a new pilot has at his or
her first few competitions.  If the people they meet are friendly and
welcoming, if performing in front of judges gets the adrenaline going and
they enjoy the experience, then they'll stick around and may seek even more
competitions then they'd planned (that's what happened to me).  On the other
hand, if the people they meet behave in person the way some of the people
I've seen on this list behave, or they get elitist and start grousing about
weight, or look at the new guy's plane and laugh about "pissing glue" then
that person will not be back unless there's something deep in his DNA that
is triggered by precisely controlling an aircraft through a sequence of
maneuvers from the ground -- that person will come back no matter what
others say and regardless of what rules do or do not change.  

Peter+

On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 7:19 AM, Dave Lockhart <DaveL322 at comcast.net> wrote:

Matt,

I agree 100% increasing the weight limit is a mistake, and I seriously
regret supporting the prior increase of 115 grams....it was just the first
step down a slippery slope.

I'd also note that it is not just the electric guys pushing for the weight
increase.  In fact, it is much easier to make weight with electric today
than it was several years ago.

Of course you are 100% right about technology catching up IF things are left
alone.  Of course the 115 gram change hasn't been in effect long enough to
see the full impact of it.  Highest performance and lowest cost are two
ideas that never coexist no matter what the rules are.....but some don't
understand that.

Regards,

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of

mjfrederick at cox.net
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 1:03 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposals

I second what Stuart is saying here. I've kept my mouth shut just observing
throughout all this discussion mainly because I'm not a member of the NSRCA.
Why am I not a member? I can't remember the last time the NSRCA represented
my interests. To propose a weight rule change is a huge mistake. Hopefully
the contest board has better sense (and experience) than the NSRCA
leadership. Being the AMA-recognized special interest group for Pattern is a
huge responsibility. Changes to what we do should not be taken lightly, nor
should they be left up to a 50% + 1 vote on a website. Sometimes leadership
and experience need to step in and stand up to those who are barking the
loudest about not being able to make weight. In this instance, the squeaky
wheel doesn't necessarily deserve the grease. Well, whetever. It's not like
I would just stop flying pattern if a weight increase was passed, but I
think it would tarnish the image of pattern. Perhaps irrevocably. Once a
change like this happ  ens, it cannot ever be taken back. Let's say 2 - 3
years from now as battery technology continues to improve (because let's
face it, the only people who want weight limit increases are electric guys),
and the batteries get lighter and lighter, you may have now given electric
planes an advantage. Rules are already in place to allow anyone to try
pattern without needing to make weight. Rules were recently passed to allow
the lower classes a variance so that they get a little leeway as they move
up. Leave things alone, and the technology will catch up to the rules, as it
always has in the past (2-stroke to 4-stroke migration).

Matt

---- Stuart Chale <schale1 at verizon.net> wrote:
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