[NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposals

Sun Mar 11 14:55:58 AKDT 2012

I have a small dawg in the fight...I think Mark and Dave L are right on
point.

Also..the GP vs EP is moot due to the YS engines and special fuel rapidly
disappearing in the rear window...hopefully that portion of the weight
'issue' will go away.

It doesn't mean anything and never really did so let's eliminate that part.

As far as 'taking off' with expensive CF components..I must totally
disagree.

My airplane weighs 10.25lbs and has steel bolts, globs of epoxy where the
battery tray was relocated, added incidence adjusters, donuts on the wing
pins with more epoxy, bondo and primer on the side of the fuse to repair
where the esc caught fire, a $5 plastic spinner and a standard APC $15 prop
that weighs a ton.

The gear legs, pants and wheels are what came with the airplane and are not
aftermarket...in fact, there is NO aftermarket CF parts or any other parts
on this airframe. 

I'm pretty sure the airframe gained at least 4oz..probably more.due to the
repairs and mods. 

So..yes, my airplane has some CF in it..but I didn't put it there and this
airplane didn't cost $4500 either.

Aftermarket wings?

They look cool when under construction and I would like very much to build a
set...it brings out the modeler in me.

But I don't need them to make weight..by a mile.

Low capacity batteries? 

Again..I'm having trouble relating to what you said..

I have 5000mah Hobby Parts $42 packs...they weigh 583g.

Pick up the phone.tell em' what you want and they will be delivered in a
couple of days..not very hard to do.

The wing is far too big on my airplane for the weight..so yes, wing loading
DOES have a lot to do with how it flies.

So.instead of making larger and heavier airplanes..how about making smaller
wings and lighter weight..how about REDUCING the weight limit to 10lbs??

Oh damn..then to make weight I would have to grind out all the epoxy globs,
grab some aluminum bolts and get some light wheels...not CF wheels either!

Anyway.I'm totally 110% against ANY weight increase even in the lower
classes.

Snarky rant off.

Dave Harmon

NSRCA 586

K6XYZ[at]sbcglobal[dot]net

Sperry, Ok.

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Burton
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 5:04 PM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposals

IMO you are dead wrong about the motivation for changing the weight limit.
At least for me, it's about cost that buys me no advantage and the inequity
between EP and GP.

Every GP airplane takes off at 12 lbs + legally. In order to take off at 11
lbs with my EP plane I have to buy expensive Cf components, aftermarket
wings not part of the original plane, extremely low capacity batteries,
expensive CF props,  and on and on $$$ to make weight. And what advantage
does it buy me?

If the older 2M planes that weighted easily under 11 lbs were better flying
than current designs we would all be flying them. But they don't fly as well
so we don't use them anymore. Why would I want to fly one -  just to make 11
lbs cheaper? 

Dave

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Mark Atwood
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 11:36 AM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposals

Simply put, if SIZE was indeed the limiting factor, that would be the
constraint that people would be trying to adjust.  It's not.  People are
hitting the weight limit because they're trying to go bigger and bigger.  As
Dave pointed out, there are LOTS of FULL 2M planes that would come in under
10lbs, much less 11lbs,  from days of old. 

Mark Atwood

Paragon Consulting, Inc.  |  President

5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124 

Phone: 440.684.3101 x102  |  Fax: 440.684.3102

mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com  |  www.paragon-inc.com
<http://www.paragon-inc.com/> 

On Mar 11, 2012, at 11:14 AM, Dave Lockhart wrote:

I see lots of points below about why to NOT increase the weight limit.

With respect to the aircraft size being limited by size, that is simply not
the case.  If that were true, we'd still be flying 9 lb 78" long Prophecies
from 1998.  We aren't, we are flying much larger volume BIGGER planes than
weigh more and cost more.  The history is very clear on this and easy enough
to research.  Size has not been and is still not the limiting factor.

I'm not hypothesizing about reductions in numbers being associated with
rules changes...the history is very clear..and most have never returned.

I think you are correct - if some of the "behavior" on this list were
evidenced in person, it would turn off new flyers.  However, I think much of
the "behavior" was literary license, exaggeration, etc to make a point(s).

Regards,

Dave L

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Peter Vogel
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 10:52 AM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposals

Weight limit increase:  Why is it a mistake?  Given the size limitations in
place, there's a practical limit on the wing loading above which the plane
is going to fly like crap, people who take care with their weight will have
an advantage, people who don't won't, but can fly their plane and compete.
It's easy to make weight even at relatively low cost given airframes like
the 2M Vanquish and the 2M Osiris.  If you are concerned about the
craftsmanship aspect of making weight with a hand-built plane, that horse
left the barn long ago since the builder of the model rule hasn't applied to
pattern as far back as I can find rules.  I have thought it a _little_
unfair that the fuel guys get to weigh in empty and the electric guys have
to weigh in with batteries in place, but I get why that's the case, and,
like I said, it's not hard to make weight.  For the guys who choose to
compete with a heavyweight plane, I don't doubt that as they learn more and
advance in the sport they'll tune their plane to compete well and the plane
will go on a diet or be replaced.

I'll be honest, I don't think the shrinkage (or growth) in competition is
due to any rules change, yes, there will be the folks for whom all change is
immediately bad and they may choose to leave, but I think if they truly
enjoy competition, they'll adapt and move on.  What fundamentally impacts
the growth (or not) of the sport is the experience a new pilot has at his or
her first few competitions.  If the people they meet are friendly and
welcoming, if performing in front of judges gets the adrenaline going and
they enjoy the experience, then they'll stick around and may seek even more
competitions then they'd planned (that's what happened to me).  On the other
hand, if the people they meet behave in person the way some of the people
I've seen on this list behave, or they get elitist and start grousing about
weight, or look at the new guy's plane and laugh about "pissing glue" then
that person will not be back unless there's something deep in his DNA that
is triggered by precisely controlling an aircraft through a sequence of
maneuvers from the ground -- that person will come back no matter what
others say and regardless of what rules do or do not change.  

Peter+

On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 7:19 AM, Dave Lockhart <DaveL322 at comcast.net> wrote:

Matt,

I agree 100% increasing the weight limit is a mistake, and I seriously
regret supporting the prior increase of 115 grams....it was just the first
step down a slippery slope.

I'd also note that it is not just the electric guys pushing for the weight
increase.  In fact, it is much easier to make weight with electric today
than it was several years ago.

Of course you are 100% right about technology catching up IF things are left
alone.  Of course the 115 gram change hasn't been in effect long enough to
see the full impact of it.  Highest performance and lowest cost are two
ideas that never coexist no matter what the rules are.....but some don't
understand that.

Regards,

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of

mjfrederick at cox.net
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 1:03 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposals

I second what Stuart is saying here. I've kept my mouth shut just observing
throughout all this discussion mainly because I'm not a member of the NSRCA.
Why am I not a member? I can't remember the last time the NSRCA represented
my interests. To propose a weight rule change is a huge mistake. Hopefully
the contest board has better sense (and experience) than the NSRCA
leadership. Being the AMA-recognized special interest group for Pattern is a
huge responsibility. Changes to what we do should not be taken lightly, nor
should they be left up to a 50% + 1 vote on a website. Sometimes leadership
and experience need to step in and stand up to those who are barking the
loudest about not being able to make weight. In this instance, the squeaky
wheel doesn't necessarily deserve the grease. Well, whetever. It's not like
I would just stop flying pattern if a weight increase was passed, but I
think it would tarnish the image of pattern. Perhaps irrevocably. Once a
change like this happ  ens, it cannot ever be taken back. Let's say 2 - 3
years from now as battery technology continues to improve (because let's
face it, the only people who want weight limit increases are electric guys),
and the batteries get lighter and lighter, you may have now given electric
planes an advantage. Rules are already in place to allow anyone to try
pattern without needing to make weight. Rules were recently passed to allow
the lower classes a variance so that they get a little leeway as they move
up. Leave things alone, and the technology will catch up to the rules, as it
always has in the past (2-stroke to 4-stroke migration).

Matt

---- Stuart Chale <schale1 at verizon.net> wrote:
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