[NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating tonewFAIrules

Thu Feb 2 17:21:30 AKST 2012

Just for clarity, the Sportsman I referred to was non-turnaround and was the
second step up the ladder back then. Novice was the entry class which nobody
in my area ever bothered with. They usually started right off in Sportsman,
but again, there was no turnaround. This was their schedule:

As I recall, most of the guys flying it did so with a Kaos, Dirty Birdy, Sig
Kougar, and the like. Some had tuned pipes and retracts. Most didn't.

Verne

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Archie
Stafford
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 9:05 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating
tonewFAIrules

John,

I have suggested this previously and was told this was too difficult for
Sportsman pilots.  I don't agree with that at all.  I would like to see the
lower classes have some more challenging maneuvers, but less box stuff.  I
think this will attract guys to fly without having to invest a lot.  There
will be a big jump at some point between classes, and I believe between
Intermediate and Advanced.  By that time people know if they want to
continue and can look to invest more time and effort into it.  The approach
that we can make the patterns smoothly flow from one class to another simply
wont work without lowering the overall difficulty.  We need to make it more
fun for Sportsman to encourage new blood and let them see how much fun it
can be.  This is just my opinion, but this approach seemed to work well
15-20 years ago.

Arch

On 2/2/12 8:59 PM, "John Fuqua" <johnfuqua at embarqmail.com> wrote:

If this is as you suggest then NSRCA has the opportunity now to redo the
Sportsman sequence and make it so power is not the criteria and more suited
to sport planes.   

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Archie
Stafford
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 7:41 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating
tonewFAIrules

I agree Verne. I wish it was set up as it used to be, where sportsman left
the box often and even Intermediate had a couple of breaks. I would like to
see the difficulty increased in the lower classes, but more box brakes. It
amazes me that 20 years ago a Novice pilot had to do 3 loops, but with
todays airplanes and technology, suddenly this is more difficult. I would
bet many Advanced pilots would have trouble with it and even more so the
three rolls that were in Sportsman. It seems as though we have totally
changed the entry levels encouraging the need for full blown pattern ships.
Years ago you could fly Novice with any average sport plane. Adding
complexity with maneuvers at the top of the box and the vertical upline that
requires some power has made this sequence much harder to fly competitively
with a .40 size sport plane. 

Arch

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 2, 2012, at 8:25 PM, "Verne Koester" <verne at twmi.rr.com> wrote:

It wasn't the expense. It was the fact that an above-average sport pilot
could do a pretty respectable job with that old Sportsman schedule without
the full commitment that a full-time pattern pilot makes. Those guys had a
blast going against their rivals in whatever region they lived in. Go
somewhere else and it'd be an entirely different group having just as much
fun flying against their pals.. A few of those guys would move up through
the classes but most seemed to be quite happy and content to do 2 or 3
"local" contests a year and have at it against their pals. Turnaround raised
the ante and the commitment to a level those guys obviously didn't want to
go to.

I never flew against any of those guys because my first contest away from my
home field was in Advanced which is a long story in itself. Suffice to say,
I wouldn't have recommended it then and especially not now. FWIW, I love
turnaround flying. I have just always thought we put a little too much
pressure on those that want to give it a try and probably scare off some or
many in the process. For those that might want to argue the point, forget
it. Been there, done that, ain't doing it no more.

Verne Koester 

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Peter Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 6:42 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Cc: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating
tonewFAIrules

I don't buy the expense argument anymore.  The $200-$400 Osiris from
3DHobbyShop winds up at $400-$800 all-up, depending on how you choose to
equip it and is more than capable of turning in very respectable showing. 

Now the $650 Vanquish even puts a full 2M plane in an affordable range. 

Peter+

Sent from my iPhone4S

On Feb 2, 2012, at 12:50 PM, "Del" <drykert2 at rochester.rr.com> wrote:

Your right Peter.. The beauty of that period of flying anyone with an Ugly
stick or under powered kadet could enter and fly pattern. Attendance at
meets was amazing at most parts of country. That style did get some heat as
blamed for loss of fields from over flights of homes etc. but if the full
truth were to be looked at all flying endeavors loud and noisy aircraft
flying near and over homes was the bigger culprit. Pattern was at the
forefront of addressing that and mandating a reasonable sound level at the
nats especially but bonus points could be award for quiet aircraft and
penalties for noisy planes.  

The other big advantage was as recently petitioned people would come out and
enjoy themselves flying after only practicing the weekend before if at all
and do fairly well sometimes. The changes have hurt overall mass attendance
but the quality of the flying by competitors has improved dramatically. Some
like that tradeoff. Others not so much. Partially because of increased
expenses to compete means they can't participate and still feel they made a
reasonable showing. 

   Del

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Peter Vogel <mailto:vogel.peter at gmail.com>  

To: General pattern discussion <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 3:15 PM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating
tonewFAIrules

OK.  Looking at some of the old rule books, I'm confused.  Take for example
the novice sequence from 86-87: 

Takeoff

Straight flight out (U)

Procedure turn

Straight flight back (D)

Stall Turn (U)

Immelmann Turn (U)

3 inside loops (U)

One horizontal roll (D)

Landing

The procedure turn, stall turn, and Immelmann sure seem like turnarounds to
me, granted to meet the mandatory directions relative to wind you would need
to have a free turnaround between the straight flight back and the stall
turn, and another free turnaround between the stall and the Immelmann, etc.
So were all the "stunt" turns intended to be executed at show center with a
free turnaround outside the box between each maneuver?  

I'm amazed at the amount of "heat" (aka: passion) there seems to have been
in the K-factor around the change to turnaround schedules.  I admit I like
my 2 "free" turnarounds outside the box in Sportsman between maneuvers 6+7
and 11+12 but I could muddle through without them if I had to, and I
honestly can't imagine flying such a disjoint sequence as the ones I'm
seeing in the old rulebooks.  Hardly feels like a "sequence".

Peter+

On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 11:43 AM, J N Hiller <jnhiller at earthlink.net> wrote:

The sequences flown were published in the old rule books. Be aware that over
the years some of the class names changed.
Some time back I applied K-factors to those non-turnaround schedules to try
to understand the migration of increasing difficulty, concluding that the
K-factor alone is a poor indicator of actual difficulty. But we all step up
to the challenge regardless of the difficulty.
Jim 

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Peter Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 11:23 AM
To: General pattern discussion

Cc: NSRCA Discussion List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating tonew
FAIrules

I was reading some of the archived K-factors and it got me curious, is there
an archive of the sequences pre-turnaround?

Peter+

Sent from my iPhone4S

On Jan 31, 2012, at 11:18 AM, Joe Lachowski <jlachow at hotmail.com> wrote:
You can log on at the NSRCA website and then proceed to the judges section
and click on archived documents. Thanks to Jim Hiller who provided me a lot
of these, I was able to scan them in and put them into the PDF Format.
Anyone who has anything older than whats up there, send a hard copy to me to
scan and I'll have Derek put them up.

  _____  

Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 08:45:38 -0800
From: derekkoopowitz at gmail.com
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating to
new FAIrules

We have a pretty good collection of AMA and FAI rule books on the website if
anyone wants to see what rules were like, or how much they have changed over
the years... 

Click on the link below:

http://nsrca.us/index.php/archiveddocuments 

On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 8:17 AM, Jon Lowe <jonlowe at aol.com> wrote:

It would appear that the FAI is going down the same road as IMAC, with
IMAC's subjective "airspace control" factor.  The smoothness and
gracefulness 25% gives a judge a non-objective way to give a downgrade of 2
to 3 points.  Since there is no scoring criteria for it that I could find,
other than Michael Ramel's instructions to the judges at the WC, I'm not
sure what we do with it.  I would think that his instructions would have
been protestable, if anyone had wanted to go down that path, since I'm
unaware of any official FAI rule interpretation saying, for example, that
constant speed is a part of smoothness and gracefulness.  I'm sure he was
just trying to give meaning to a poorly writen criteria.

Very sorry to see the FAI going this way.
Jon

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