[NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relatingtonewFAIrules

Thu Feb 2 14:21:31 AKST 2012

Classis Patern Association and the Vintage R/C Society both are currently flyng 
those patterns.
We even included one on an AMA sanctioned contest in CA this fall.
I've been flying in Rudder only (Junior Falcon and Charger) up to full house 
(Banshee and Kaos) for the past several years.
 Jim Quinn 

________________________________
From: J N Hiller <jnhiller at earthlink.net>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Thu, February 2, 2012 4:55:13 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic 
relatingtonewFAIrules

Are some folks trying to revitalize the pre-turnaround pattern. Classic Pattern! 
I'm waiting, still have two OS VF's and can scratch build another Arrow. Can't 
make 105 db any more at my primary field but that’s OK the airplane flue better 
with a 12-9 or 10 anyway.
Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Del
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 12:51 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic 
relatingtonewFAIrules

Your right Peter.. The beauty of that period of flying anyone with an Ugly stick 
or under powered kadet could enter and fly pattern. Attendance at meets was 
amazing at most parts of country. That style did get some heat as blamed for 
loss of fields from over flights of homes etc. but if the full truth were to be 
looked at all flying endeavors loud and noisy aircraft flying near and over 
homes was the bigger culprit. Pattern was at the forefront of addressing that 
and mandating a reasonable sound level at the nats especially but bonus points 
could be award for quiet aircraft and penalties for noisy planes.  

The other big advantage was as recently petitioned people would come out and 
enjoy themselves flying after only practicing the weekend before if at all and 
do fairly well sometimes. The changes have hurt overall mass attendance but the 
quality of the flying by competitors has improved dramatically. Some like that 
tradeoff. Others not so much. Partially because of increased expenses to compete 
means they can't participate and still feel they made a reasonable showing. 

    Del
----- Original Message ----- 
Peter Vogel 
From:
To:General pattern discussion 
Sent:Thursday, February 02, 2012 3:15 PM
Subject:Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating 
tonewFAIrules

OK.  Looking at some of the old rule books, I'm confused.  Take for example the 
novice sequence from 86-87: 

Takeoff
Straight flight out (U)
Procedure turn
Straight flight back (D)
Stall Turn (U)
Immelmann Turn (U)
3 inside loops (U)
One horizontal roll (D)
Landing

The procedure turn, stall turn, and Immelmann sure seem like turnarounds to me, 
granted to meet the mandatory directions relative to wind you would need to have 
a free turnaround between the straight flight back and the stall turn, and 
another free turnaround between the stall and the Immelmann, etc.  So were all 
the "stunt" turns intended to be executed at show center with a free turnaround 
outside the box between each maneuver?  

I'm amazed at the amount of "heat" (aka: passion) there seems to have been in 
the K-factor around the change to turnaround schedules.  I admit I like my 2 
"free" turnarounds outside the box in Sportsman between maneuvers 6+7 and 11+12 
but I could muddle through without them if I had to, and I honestly can't 
imagine flying such a disjoint sequence as the ones I'm seeing in the old 
rulebooks.  Hardly feels like a "sequence".

Peter+

On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 11:43 AM, J N Hiller <jnhiller at earthlink.net> wrote:

Some time back I applied K-factors to those non-turnaround schedules to try to 
understand the migration of increasing difficulty, concluding that the K-factor 
alone is a poor indicator of actual difficulty. But we all step up to the 
challenge regardless of the difficulty.
Jim 

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Peter Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 11:23 AM
To: General pattern discussion
Cc:NSRCA Discussion List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating tonew 
FAIrules
The sequences flown were published in the old rule books. Be aware that over the 
years some of the class names changed.

I was reading some of the archived K-factors and it got me curious, is there an 
archive of the sequences pre-turnaround?

Peter+

Sent from my iPhone4S

On Jan 31, 2012, at 11:18 AM, Joe Lachowski <jlachow at hotmail.com> wrote:
You can log on at the NSRCA website and then proceed to the judges section and 
click on archived documents. Thanks to Jim Hiller who provided me a lot of 
these, I was able to scan them in and put them into the PDF Format. Anyone who 
has anything older than whats up there, send a hard copy to me to scan and I'll 
have Derek put them up.

________________________________

Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 08:45:38 -0800
From: derekkoopowitz at gmail.com
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating to new 
FAIrules

We have a pretty good collection of AMA and FAI rule books on the website if 
anyone wants to see what rules were like, or how much they have changed over the 
years... 

Click on the link below:

http://nsrca.us/index.php/archiveddocuments 

On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 8:17 AM, Jon Lowe <jonlowe at aol.com> wrote:
It would appear that the FAI is going down the same road as IMAC, with IMAC's 
subjective "airspace control" factor.  The smoothness and gracefulness 25% gives 
a judge a non-objective way to give a downgrade of 2 to 3 points.  Since there 
is no scoring criteria for it that I could find, other than Michael Ramel's 
instructions to the judges at the WC, I'm not sure what we do with it.  I would 
think that his instructions would have been protestable, if anyone had wanted to 
go down that path, since I'm unaware of any official FAI rule interpretation 
saying, for example, that constant speed is a part of smoothness and 
gracefulness.  I'm sure he was just trying to give meaning to a poorly writen 
criteria.

Very sorry to see the FAI going this way.
Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Atwood <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Tue, Jan 31, 2012 9:49 am
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating to new 
FAIrules
Dave, the answer, by your own math, is that a geometrically perfect maneuver 
can't be beaten purely by other criteria.   With geometry making up 50% of the 
score, no amount of smoothness can be valued MORE than precision.   

I could also argue that a geometrically "perfect" maneuver would always have at 
least some level of gracefulness based on that perfect geometry.  They're not 
completely independent.  

Unfortunately S&G is completely subjective, and as analytical people, we're not 
too keen on subjectivity.  But that's the nature of the sport.  It's perceived 
precision, not measured.    Vertical lines at the end of the box don't need to 
BE vertical, they need to LOOK vertical, etc.   

If we want purely objective scoring... look to racing.  Go fast, bank left, 
pull.   

 Mark Atwood
Paragon Consulting, Inc.  |  President
5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124 
Phone: 440.684.3101 x102  |  Fax: 440.684.3102
mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com  |  www.paragon-inc.com

On Jan 31, 2012, at 10:37 AM, DaveL322 at comcast.net wrote:

There has never been guidance for s+g downgrades in AMA or FAI.....which is why 
I have always advocated s+g should be eliminated from the judging criteria.  Of 
course if I am mistaken about the goal of pattern being precision aerobatics, 
then maybe s+g should be the only criteria.

I've never gotten an answer to this question.  How can a geometrically perfect 
maneuver be outscored by a geometrically flawed maneuver?  Of course with the 
new FAI scoring.....it would seem that geometrically perfect maneuver might only 
be scored a 5.

Regards,

Dave

Sent from my HTC on the Now Network from Sprint!
----- Reply message -----
From: "Ronald Van Putte" <vanputte at cox.net>
Date: Tue, Jan 31, 2012 09:49
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating to new 
FAIrules
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
After thinking about this further, I wonder how the change in  ranking affects 
anything.  Positioning has specific downgrades (2 point downgrade for each 1/4 
of the maneuver off center).  However, I am unaware of any specific downgrades 
for smoothness and gracefulness. 

Ron Van Putte

Begin forwarded message:

From: Ronald Van Putte <vanputte at cox.net>
Date: January 31, 2012 8:24:56 AM CST
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Another discussion topic relating to new 
FAIrules
Reply-To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>

That's interesting.  I know #2. and #3. were in reverse order before.  I don't 
remember a rules change vote on this. 

Ron Van Putte

On Jan 31, 2012, at 8:19 AM, Bob Kane wrote:

FWIW, this is identical to to the ranking in the AMA Competition regulations:

From the current AMA document (RCA-12):

1.Precision of the maneuver.
2.Smoothness and gracefulness of the maneuver. 
3.Positioning or display of the maneuver.
4. Size or dimensions of the maneuver relative to the maneuvering area, distance 
from the judges, and other maneuvers in the flight. 

The above criteria are listed in order of importance; however, all of them must 
be met for a maneuver to be rated perfect. 

Bob Kane getterflash at yahoo.com
From:
J N Hiller <jnhiller at earthlink.net>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 3:51 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Another discussion topic relating to new 
FAIrules

I would have thought positioning rated a higher precision aerobatics. Smoothness 
and gracefulness is polish.
Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of 
tocdon at netscape.net
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 6:06 PM
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Another discussion topic relating to new FAIrules

This will keep the list going (and the discussions too).  I recall Michael Ramel 
clearly discussing the future of the rules during the judges training at the 
World Championships at Muncie.  This was relating to smoothness and gracefulness 
being directly related to constant speed.  The following reflects what he 
discussed, as cited on page 35, and effect the way a score is awarded:

Geometry:  50%
Smoothness and Gracefulness: 25%
Position of maneuver: 12.5%
Size of maneuver: 12.5%
Proportion of the maneuver outside the (box) in addition to above.

The specific, objective criteria used to judge smoothness and gracefulness 
includes, "maintaining constant speed throughout various maneuver components, 
like climbing and decending sections..."

Also the sentence about radii being very loose or very tight, even if equal 
size within a maneuver, are grounds for downgrade of smoothness and 
gracefulness.

Cheers,
Don

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-- 
Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training
Santa Clara County Model Aircraft Skypark

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