[NSRCA-discussion] FW: Contest board - Was Executive Board voting

[J N Hiller]

Sorry for the second post. This is only a suggestion! If the CB decides to
write and publish a statement clarifying failure or passage of rules
proposals don't publish it hear or on RCU, send it to MA for inclusion in
the AMA publication. It's an after the fact document no longer requiring
real-time discussion.



-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of J N Hiller
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 11:57 AM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Contest board - Was Executive Board voting

Thanks Mark I suspected as much. Activity wide safety issues should be
included in the AMA safety code if valid and not in special interest rules.
Most everyone I know already incorporate the proposed safety procedures and
equipment. No rule required for most of us.
Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 11:16 AM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Contest board - Was Executive Board voting

OK,  As a CB member I want to throw a few quick things out there.  First and
foremost, Just like the NSRCA Board, we're a group of volunteers that love
modeling and Precision Aerobatics, and we do the best we can with fulfilling
our charter.  If there are issues, mistakes, bad choices, GOOD choices, they
are all the result of a dedicated group TRYING to do their best.   There is
no hidden agenda or malicious intent...ever.

That said I think one of the clear disconnects is our Charter.  We are
selected to the contest board based on our years of experience in the hobby,
the sport, a demonstration of our understanding of the AMA and its rules,
and an active participation and understanding in the niche within which we
are representing.

We have some obligation to preserve Pattern, as Pattern.  I.e. if the ENTIRE
NSRCA membership voted unanimously to change the rules such that whom ever
could fly 10 laps the fastest wins... We would have an obligation to vote
NO, regardless of that unanimous support.  I.e go fly Pylon.
Occasionally we are presented with rules that we collectively feel are not
in the best interest of maintaining Pattern competition and this then comes
into play.  This is especially true when rules are put forth that strongly
alter the lower classes (Often championed by someone with heavy interest and
enthusiasm, but minimal years of experience to know how these things
manifest).

We also have an obligation to the logistics of the sport.  Rules that place
an unreasonable burden on running an event bare a much higher level of
scrutiny prior to being passed.

We have an obligation to the AMA to keep some consistency with their general
rules, and with similar rules in other disciplines.  Safety issues fall
squarely into this camp.  The AMA has long stated that they do not support
legislating out stupidity, or creating burdensome rules that punish the
masses simply to protect against carelessness (Unless of course the result
of such error is catastrophic).

Also regarding safety, if the safety issue is somewhat generic to the hobby,
then those regulations are pushed up to the AMA safety board for review
unless they are very specific to the individual discipline.

Bottom line...  Just because the majority of the NSRCA wants it, doesn't
mean we should be approving it.

Lastly, the statement "The majority of the NSRCA" does NOT necessarily mean
the survey results.  That is a VERY small subset of our group.  It's
typically a subset of the vocal, or the opinionated, or both.  I can't speak
for the entire CB, but I WILL speak for Verne (Sorry Verne) and me, in that
we both query as many of our district members that we see or can solicit.
MANY times an issue that has been fired up on the list or via the survey
gets a very different 'vote' when it's discussed in the actual setting of a
contest, and when all the inputs are weighed (I.e. everyone standing there
discusses it).

All that said, there's no reason why we couldn't collectively write an
assenting or dissenting opinion much in the way a court does, to at least
convey the logic that was used to make our vote.

Anyhow, the entire CB is online and our names are published.  One need but
ask... and many do.  But we're sometimes remiss to post too much on the
discussion boards about a proposal.  Rather most of us take a back seat to
the discussion and simply listen.

-Mark
Mark Atwood
Paragon Consulting, Inc.  |  President
5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
Phone: 440.684.3101 x102  |  Fax: 440.684.3102
mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com<mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com>  |
www.paragon-inc.com<http://www.paragon-inc.com/>




On Dec 12, 2012, at 12:19 PM, J N Hiller wrote:

I'm not too old to remember what it was like before the NSRCA. If you
traveled very far you could find yourself competing in an unfamiliar event.
The NSRCA has matured since those early days and contributed greatly to
standardized judging, rule proposal screening and national unity. YES the
NSRCA has value well beyond the K-Factor.

Yes it would be nice to get the rest of the story from the AMA contest board
as to why safety related rules were voted down. Maybe I missed it but at
this point I can only guess. I could probably ask directly and get a reply
but I trust they had a valid reason.

I also trust our BOD to lead the NSRCA on my behalf without having to
explain, discuss or endlessly argue details in an open forum. Open discussed
can be extremely time consuming with limited productivity. There is no
making everyone happy especially if their' participation is hit and miss
continuously requiring covering old ground.

Those of us that wish to be involved in the details can get actively
involved.

Enough. On to the shop!

Jim Hiller
NSRCA 376
.

-----Original Message-----
From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis
ts.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of
Jon Lowe
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 7:33 AM
To:
nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Executive Board voting

John,
I have never intentionally attacked anyone, either on this forum or on the
discussions over on RCU.  I've asked questions, seeking answers.  I tend to
be direct in my emails and they may appear to be harsh, probably comes from
my background dealing with the military.  I have not accused anyone of
having an agenda, nor do I think anyone on the board does.  If you or anyone
else thinks that is what I've implied or am implying, I'm sorry.

I think after seeing what you said here, seeing the complete NSRCA survey
results, and several private emails and phone calls, that there is a general
apathy in NSRCA which seems to have its roots in people questioning the
relevancy of the organization.  If NSRCA is not relevant and doesn't provide
added value to the membership, we can turn the sequences back over to the
AMA and disband.  I'd like to see NSRCA viewed as returning far more in
value to the membership than the few dollars they invest each year.  A
question we all need to constantly ask ourselves is "If someone asks me why
I should join the NSRCA, what do I tell them?"

The K-Factor is a recurring theme in the survey and people I have talked to
in terms of value to the members.  I would like to congratulate Scott McHarg
and the rest of the K-Factor crew on the December issue of the K-Factor.  I
everyone reading this hasn't looked at it, it has a lot of how-to in it.
Good job!

I didn't mean to imply that the AMA competition board should not have been
much more transparent during the rules proposal process.  They should have
been, and that communication is one thing I'd work on to improve if elected.
I am an advocate of follow-up, follow-up, follow-up.  And if we are going to
ask others to be transparent to us, then we need to walk the talk.

Again, sorry if I offended anyone.  I was asking questions that I didn't see
anyone else asking, and I wanted to know the answers.  I hope the membership
will see this continuing discussion as constructive, and offer their
thoughts.
Jon
-----Original Message-----
From: John Gayer <jgghome at comcast.net<mailto:jgghome at comcast.net>>
To: General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
Sent: Tue, Dec 11, 2012 11:16 pm
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Executive Board voting
[quote]ORIGINAL: jonlowe
Transparency. I think the spilled milk has been discussed enough, from the
AMA rules change proposal process by the board, to the bylaws, to the
aborted officer election.
[/quote]


I certainly agree that there were processes that could have been improved
relative to the bylaw changes and officer election. However to call them
aborted and imply in various other posts that the board has a hidden agenda
is over the top. Clearly the board could have and should have done a better
job on the elections and, for that matter, the treasurer's audit but there
was no intent to hoodwink or put one over on the membership. We are nothing
but a bunch of volunteers with a love of pattern. When the call went out two
years ago, noone else stood up and said "I want to run for office". Various
coercions were applied to get Ed Alt to run for President and Scott McHarg
to run for Secretary.I will admit to calling Derek and asking if they had
found a Treasurer in mid-December. When he said yes, I thanked him and was
about to hang up when he said "you". Later that year Ed Alt resigned due to
the press of work and Jim Quinn who was then VP reluctantly assumed the
reins of president. Good choice or not, there was noone else champing at the
bit to take the job and the board gratefully accepted Jim as president. I
didn't see anyone jumping up and down to get on the board at that time or,
for that matter, now. Kind of wonder where all the current contrarians were
then. Jon, I guess you were still recovering from your retirement so that
excuses you but there are plenty of others making derogatory comments about
the actions of the current board. Where are you when we need help?
Apparently looking the other way.  Right now John Bruml has been trying to
get out of being the Advertising Manager almost as long as I've been on the
board. Where are those clamoring to help out? Apparently using their
energies to bash those who did throw their hat in.


LOWE>>Oh, and about the Contest Board.  Their process is well documented by
the AMA and follows a strict time table.  We all had the opportunity to
provide inputs and cross proposals after the initial vote.  We also had the
opportunity to talk to the CB members, and I did talk to a couple of them.
The CB members are mostly active members of the pattern community, are well
known, and are charted by the AMA, not the NSRCA, to look at rules proposals
to benefit all AMA participants, not just NSRCA members. Problems with the
NSRCA proposals were hashed out here, and the submitters had the opportunity
to fix issues during the cross proposal process.  How much follow-up contact
did the NSRCA board initiate with the CB during the process?  Were any cross
proposals submitted?<<LOWE

Jon, this seems to have provided the impetus for your presidential campaign.
I can only say that the NSRCA Rules committee operated openly, if with a
late start, and solicited input from the membership on RCU and this list(and
outside the membership as well), ran a survey, modified proposals to meet
objections and finally submitted proposals to the contest board. More open
you cannot get. I find it fascinating that to you, the NSRCA board must be
open and direct with its membership(as it should) but when dealing with the
contest board we are expected to dig, pry and canvas the board members in an
effort to find out how our proposals are doing and what objections might
have been raised. Why is the same openness not required in both cases in
your mind?? While it is clear in the published process that cross-proposals
could be submitted within a window, we had no way of knowing which or what
part of our proposals were causing difficulty. There was no contact
initiated by the contest board. Adding insult to injury, there was no
"report out" published, listing the pro and con votes by district and any
discussed objections. As I have said before, I have no more idea what it
takes to get a proposal passed through the CB then I did a year ago before
the NSRCA rules committee formed. How do you explain the dichotomy between
your views of the contest board and the NSRCA board?

Relative to the Nats, it is clear to everyone on the board that the Nats are
in the control of the AMA which has been true ever since NPAC went away. We,
the board, present a candidate to the AMA, who has always been accepted.
After that we lose any control. Although since I've been on the board, there
have been various problems at the Nats which many blame on the NSRCA not the
AMA. Arch has been good about keeping us in the loop but he makes it clear
who he reports to.  He and previous EDs and the AMA staff have been great
about providing logistic support for the banquet, ice cream social, etc.
However there is no question about the ED having two bosses, AMA is it. The
NSRCA is responsible for using the funds collected by the AMA on our behalf
to purchase the necessary scoring equipment and paying the volunteer staff
what we can. This is never enough to even cover their expenses at the Nats
much less travel.

John Gayer
NSRCA Treasurer




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