[NSRCA-discussion] No telemetry rule & new radio systems

Mon Nov 21 17:57:57 AKST 2011

Dave,

I wonder why you think a middle ground would create controversy?  I get why
there's been controversy as to what's a snap roll (and what's a spin for
that matter) but for telemetry, it should be simple enough to enumerate
what's permitted:

1.  Battery voltage
2.  Amp draw
3.  Temperature

Anything else not permitted.

Peter+

On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 6:53 PM, Dave Lockhart <DaveL322 at comcast.net> wrote:

> Fair enough distinction on the differences between Spektrum and
> Hitec/Graupner.****
>
> ** **
>
> I’m in no way suggesting the telemetry be ignored.  I’m suggesting that
> rules that are impossible to accurately write, interpret, and enforce are
> only going to be a timesink and source of controversy.****
>
> ** **
>
> Pattern planes are quiet because we have a noise rule….not because the
> noise rule is rigidly enforced at every pattern contest.  If an extremely
> loud plane were to show up at a pattern contest, I’d think at the majority
> of local contests the owner of the loud plane would be offered assistance
> to quiet the plane, and/or asked to quiet the plane prior to the next event.
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> Regarding the future of telemetry in pattern…..we can either embrace it
> 100% and allow it to help pilots in any/all capacities (simple enough, just
> adds more cost and complexity to the event), pick a middle ground of what
> telemetry is allowed (and embrace controversy), or disallow it (simple
> answer).  While I easily see current/future radios including telemetry
> oriented at increasing safety / preserving equipment (that may or may not
> be able to be turned off), I seriously doubt any of the radio manufacturers
> are going to produce radios with telemetry features that will enhance
> flying that can not be turned off.  To that end, I think it is easiest to
> disallow telemetry…..and then tech inspect if/when needed……and I suspect
> telemetry to “cheat” will be about as common as gyros.****
>
> ** **
>
> Regards,****
>
> ** **
>
> Dave****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:
> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] *On Behalf Of *Peter Vogel
> *Sent:* Monday, November 21, 2011 9:34 PM
>
> *To:* General pattern discussion
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] No telemetry rule & new radio systems***
> *
>
> ** **
>
> DX8 has telemetry but it's only sent if you have a TM1000 or similar
> module in your plane, so unless you bind the telemetry unit when you bind
> the RX, it's off.  But that's NOT how Hitec and Graupner have implemented
> theirs (battery telemetry is always on in the Aurora 9 and now even their
> entry level transmitters and ALL of their receivers) Spektrum & JR are
> heading that direction in their next gen, Futaba won't be far behind lest
> they lose more market share in the US to JR & Spektrum.  It's a reality of
> the market and ignoring it won't make it go away.****
>
> ** **
>
> Peter+****
>
> On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 6:14 PM, Dave Lockhart <DaveL322 at comcast.net>
> wrote:****
>
> Spektrum DX8 has telemetry, for about 1 year now.  And it can be turned
> off.  Yes something else that technically would need to be inspected, just
> like inspecting TX programming for “magic” switches to defeat the noise
> test.****
>
>
> Regards,****
>
>
> Dave****
>
>  ****
>
> *From:* nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:
> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] *On Behalf Of *Peter Vogel
> *Sent:* Monday, November 21, 2011 9:09 PM****
>
>
> *To:* General pattern discussion
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] No telemetry rule & new radio systems***
> *
>
>  ****
>
> My issue with this approach is that it effectively makes the current
> generation of equipment illegal for pattern competition as telemetry is
> integrated into all new receivers + transmitters from Graupner and Hitec
> already, I suspect Spektrum/JR aren't far behind and we'll see what Futaba
> comes up with in their next tech refresh.  ****
>
>  ****
>
> I know I'm just a sportsman competitor and not up to the calibre of the
> most of the people on this list, but from my perspective I'd like to see
> something very straightforward, something like this:****
>
>  ****
>
> Radio control equipment must be of the open loop type, no on-board or
> telemetry-based automated feedback loop equipment such as gyroscopes,
> autopilots or similar equipment is permitted.  Downlink telemetry providing
> basic system health functions such as battery voltage and servo or motor
> current draw and temperature data is permissible, but advanced telemetry
> such as heading, attitude, airspeed, windspeed, etc. is not allowed.****
>
>  ****
>
> Peter+****
>
> On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 5:36 PM, Dave Lockhart <DaveL322 at comcast.net>
> wrote:****
>
> While the intent is clear enough, wordsmithing rules to get exactly the
> desired intent and only the desired intent is never going to be truly
> achievable….just like the perpetual wordsmithing for snaps and spins.****
>
>  ****
>
> The simple solution is ban all telemetry and remove the problem of
> determining what telemetry is / isn’t allowed.  I am not opposed to systems
> that enhance safety, but telemetry is not needed to do that, simply link
> whatever onboard monitoring to the RX and have the throttle pulsed to
> idle….just like the RF / low battery failsafe / holds setups do now.****
>
>  ****
>
> Regards,****
>
>  ****
>
> Dave****
>
>  ****
>
> *From:* nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:
> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] *On Behalf Of *astropuppy
> *Sent:* Monday, November 21, 2011 7:03 PM****
>
>
> *To:* General pattern discussion
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] No telemetry rule & new radio systems***
> *
>
>  ****
>
> Just my 2 cents. I think this technology would be best used to eliminate
> the judges. Take a few (box & center) gps coordinates before the contest
> and voila a judge who will work all day without lunch or a Bio break. Mike
> ****
>
> On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 4:45 PM, J N Hiller <jnhiller at earthlink.net>
> wrote:****
>
> I wasn't going to get back into this but thanks to your thoughtful reply I
> now have more questions / concerns we may need to be aware of before
> adjusting rules.****
>
> If allowed I can envision telemetry expanding to include absolute
> positioning of the flight plane, feedback to a processor giving the pilot
> audible instructions during the flight similar to a good caller. Call this
> a virtual or electronic caller helping the pilot with timely verbal advise
> throughout the flight assist him in correcting any and all deviations from
> the required track. ****
>
> If we allow that only visual feedback be used but the pilot than the rule
> needs to allow only system related data be available in real time, no
> flight data.****
>
> If electronic flight sensor data is allowed need it be interpreted by a
> biological assistant or should electronic processing of the raw data be
> allowed resulting in usable pilot commands. Should the instructions talking
> electronic device?****
>
> If we start nitpicking functionality within the rules we will be
> revisiting the rule about as often as snap rolls. It appears to me every
> thing except closed loop electronic flight command could be allowed. ****
>
> Disallowing advancing technology doesn't work for long. That sounds
> familiar doesn't it. ****
>
> The nice young lady in my truck computer does a good job assisting me with
> navigation. I bet she could just as easily help me keep my RC airplane on
> that invisible flight path as well as call the next maneuver. It admittedly
> wouldn't be the same as a real live caller including selective additives in
> their verbal suggestions.****
>
> Looks like another move to the latest and greatest equipment few of us
> would benefit from.****
>
> Jim****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:
> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]*On Behalf Of *Ed Alt
> *Sent:* Monday, November 21, 2011 10:27 AM
> *To:* NSRCA List
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] No telemetry rule & new radio systems***
> *
>
>  ****
>
> Is it against the rules for your caller to mention that the engine sounds
> lean?  Can he tell you that it looks like you're dropping a wing in the
> corners? What if he says you're drifting out to 200 meters, or that you
> just about missed the pole on the turnaround?  All of these things are
> in-flight feedback, based on audible or visual feedback from the model,
> that you, the pilot may or may not have observed as keenly as your caller.
> And you, as the pilot, may or may not act on this feedback, which is
> different than an automated closed loop feedback system.  It's called free
> will.  If your caller grabs the sticks to fix any of these issues for you,
> it's another matter entirely.
>
> So now there can be telemetry feedback.  It is only a closed loop feedback
> system if there is a mechanism in place to take specific action on that
> feedback in a pre-determined fashion, which results in having corrected
> some condition of flight with the model.  How a low voltage warning could
> count as closed loop feedback is debatable, but I guess that if it's OK for
> a hearing imparied pilot to be assisted by a caller to land when there's an
> engine problem, then it ought to be OK for an audible beep or a glance at a
> telemetry display to clue you in on what's happening inside the model,
> before it becomes a safety problem.
>
> Just for perspective, your servos and voltage regulators are all closed
> loop feedback systems.  So is the pressure regulator on a YS, if you are
> still running one.  None of those closed loop systems fly the model for
> you.  They only serve to stabilize that part of the system that you are in
> command of.
>
> Ed
>  ****
> ------------------------------
>
> From: jnhiller at earthlink.net
> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 09:12:15 -0800
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] No telemetry rule & new radio systems****
>
> "Closed Loop" ?? Dose this include information displayed for pilot and or
> caller to use during a competition flight? Or only electronic? If the info
> is displayed on the TX screen should it be blacked out during flight? A
> beep for low voltage is obviously a good thing but much more than that
> could be perceived as unequal advantage. Personally I don't have the time
> or processing ability to deal with it in real time. Keeping track of what
> I'm trying to do is about all I can manage.****
>
> Jim****
>
>  ****
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:
> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]*On Behalf Of *Jay Marshall
> *Sent:* Monday, November 21, 2011 8:00 AM
> *To:* 'General pattern discussion'
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] No telemetry rule & new radio systems***
> *
>
>  ****
>
> “Good” and “No Good” are not the issue. As far as I am concerned, all
> information can be “Good”. The issue is how it is used – no closed loop
> control.****
>
>  ****
>
> Jay Marshall****
>
>  ****
>
> *From:* nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:
> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] *On Behalf Of *
> rcmaster199 at aol.com
> *Sent:* Monday, November 21, 2011 10:44 AM
> *To:* nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] No telemetry rule & new radio systems***
> *
>
>  ****
>
> So, who's gonna draft a replacement rule for the old, antiquated one?
> Sounds to me like some types of telemetry are not a bad thing (airborne
> radio voltage, servo condition, are two OTOH). Other types are no good
> (direction, rpm, voltage/current of power supply, exhaust temp, etc)****
>
>  ****
>
> MattK****
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Verne Koester <verne at twmi.rr.com>
> To: 'General pattern discussion' <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:24 am
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] No telemetry rule & new radio systems****
>
> They were removed in mine as well. That was the last Futaba top tier radio
> that came with good stiff springs.****
>
>  ****
>
> Verne****
>
>  ****
>
> *From:* nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [
> mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org?>]
> *On Behalf Of *Bob Richards
> *Sent:* Monday, November 21, 2011 9:21 AM
> *To:* General pattern discussion
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] No telemetry rule & new radio systems***
> *
>
>  ****
>
> I think we all know what the intent of the rule is, but I think we all
> agree that the rule needs to be modified to make that clear.****
>
>  ****
>
> As for a snap switch, it is not a "control sequencing or control
> timing device" as it does not initiate any kind of sequence or start any
> kind of timing event, IMHO. Does anyone remember the very first Futaba 8SGA
> transmitters that DID have timers on the snap switch function, such that
> when you activated the switch it would deflect the different control
> surfaces for a predetermined amount of time (programmable). In my
> transmitter, the adjustment pots for that had been removed, presumably
> because of the rules against such functions.****
>
>  ****
>
> Bob R.****
>
>
>
> --- On *Sat, 11/19/11, John Ford <astropattern at yahoo.com>* wrote:****
>
>
> From: John Ford <astropattern at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] No telemetry rule & new radio systems
> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> Date: Saturday, November 19, 2011, 8:03 PM****
>
> I would speculate that the term "feedback" means a closed control loop
> where the telemetry data would actually become pre-programed data input to
> the TX software such that throttle, rates, flight conditions, or mixes
> would actually be modified by the software in real time. That would
> certainly be a game-changer!
> Just having open telemetry isn't an advantage...it's probably a
> distraction, unless you alarm on Rx battery voltage or something like that.
>
> John
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 5:37 PM EST Peter Vogel wrote:
>
> >Hmm.
> >
> >So I'm looking at section 4.4 of the AMA Competition regulations here:
> >http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/2011-2012RCAerobatics1.pdf
> >
> >I see the following emphasis mine:
> >
> >Radio control equipment shall be of the open loop type
> >(i.e. *no electronic feedback from the model to the *
> >*ground*)
> >
> >It then goes on to provide examples of what is/is not permitted:
> >
> >Examples of control functions not permitted:
> >8) Electronic or other signal or feedback
> >from the model of *any kind.*
> >
> >I believe the verbiage needs to be changed to reflect the spirit and
> intent
> >of the rule, which is to prevent telemetry data (i.e. heading, airspeed,
> >etc.) that would provide an advantage in precision to the pilot flying
> with
> >said equipment.  Basic telemetry data such as the state of charge for the
> >reciever and main system batteries (in the case of an electric) model
> >and/or engine/motor temperature, RPM, etc. provide no such advantage and
> >should be permitted as it enhances flight safety and provides some
> >protection for the airframes themselves.
> >
> >Rex, says that "it goes on to say that the rule is to prevent
> >pre-programmed control of the aircraft such as timed snaps" but I believe
> >those are distinct sentences, the RC equipment must be open loop with no
> >feedback from the model to the ground.  Period, full stop.  Then it goes
> on
> >with additional requirements distinct from the RC TX/RX: Autopilots are
> >prohibited (i.e. devices such as the UAVDev board or Ardupilot or the new
> >AS3X from Horizon would be prohibited, even though they are not
> closed-loop
> >control systems.  Further, automatic control sequencing or control timing
> >devices (which I have always read as preventing the use of snap button
> >functions on modern computer transmitters) are prohibited.  I've wondered
> >how that last one is enforced given virtually every computer radio today
> >has the ability to assign a snap of any form to any switch or button on
> the
> >transmitter and it would be difficult to check that snap functions are
> >inhibited in every contestent's TX.  I have assumed the honor system
> >applies.  I would expect the same honor system, with, perhaps, a check of
> >winning pilot's telemetry systems in high-stakes events would be
> sufficient
> >to relax the telemetry rule to allow basic telemetry systems such as the
> >Hitec, Graupner + Spektrum systems to be permitted.
> >
> >Peter+
> >
> >On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Richard Lewis <humptybump at sbcglobal.net<http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=humptybump%40sbcglobal.net>
> >wrote:
> >
> >> The rule likely needs an update to verbage that is consistent with
> current
> >> technology, but as long as there is no closed loop on any of the
> telemetry
> >> it is well within the "spirit" of the rule to use/allow these systems in
> >> pattern...
> >>
> >>  ------------------------------
> >> *From:* Peter Vogel <vogel.peter at gmail.com<http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vogel.peter%40gmail.com>
> >
> >> *To:* "nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion%40lists.nsrca.org>"
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion%40lists.nsrca.org>
> >> >
> >> *Sent:* Fri, November 18, 2011 4:20:02 PM
> >>
> >> *Subject:* [NSRCA-discussion] No telemetry rule & new radio systems
> >>
> >> I was just reading RCM&E (one of my favorite magazines) and noticed that
> >> the latest systems from Graupner and Hitec have telemetry built-in to
> all
> >> RX's, I suspect the others aren't far behind.  With the current rule
> >> against any form of downlink from the aircraft, it seems the newer
> systems
> >> will be out of reach to those competing in pattern aerobatics.  I'm
> just in
> >> sportsman, any thought to relaxing the rule to restricting telemetry
> that
> >> might actually be an advantage in competition as opposed to things that
> can
> >> save an airframe like battery voltage data?
> >>
> >> Peter+
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone4S
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=NSRCA-discussion%40lists.nsrca.org>
> >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >>
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> >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >--
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> >300,000 children.
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> ** **
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