[NSRCA-discussion] FW: NATS 2012
Archie Stafford
astafford at md.metrocast.net
Tue Dec 13 09:49:45 AKST 2011
Ron,
Under that arguement, there is no reason to enforce box violations,
any other judging downgrades.
At not point have I ever said these wont be checked. Some may and
some may not. I will do my best to follow all of them depending on
resources available. Checking the weight will not be difficult to do.
Checking the markings of aircraft is also very easy and is something
I plan to do. Autopilots and gyros are very difficult to check as
there are receivers and such now with them built in and you could
actually disable them from a switch on the TX. I don't believe there
are many questions with the others as I actually investigated how
sharp a leading edge and such has to be to fail and I have yet to see
a plane that would fail that. Not to say it isn't possible, but it is
a much sharper than we think it is by just looking at it. Battery
voltage is also very easy to check.
I knew this was going to come up and I am prepared for any
complaints. I could see many of these complaints as viable if these
were things that were stated to be different from the rules. My goal
is to more closely follow the rule book and just because something has
not been done in the past is not a valid reason to be for why it can't
be done in the future.
As I said, my point is that everyone know ahead of time that the
rule book is going to be followed, and I encourage everyone to look at
the rule book and then look at your plane and ensure that your plane
follows the rules and then no one has a reason to complain or worry,
Archie
On Tue 12/13/11 1:38 PM , Ronald Van Putte vanputte at cox.net sent:
OK. If all the rules are applied across all classes, let's see the
rules regarding radii of leading edges, prop hubs, proper marking of
aircraft, battery voltage, autopilots, gyros and the like also
enforced. Selective enforcement of rules requires massive
explanations of why.
Ron Van Putte
On Dec 13, 2011, at 12:02 PM, Derek Koopowitz wrote:
I'm in total agreement with Archie on the application of the rules
across all the classes. I also hope that Archie will run F3A
according to the FAI rules as well - 4 rounds of equal exposure
followed by a semi-finals and then a finals. We have not had equal
exposure at the Nats for a number of years in F3A and this should be
applied in a Team Selection year in order to make it equitable for ALL
F3A pilots
On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 8:23 AM, Michael S. Harrison wrote:
FROM: Archie Stafford [mailto:astafford at md.metrocast.net [2]]
SENT: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 9:55 AM
TO: Michael S. Harrison
SUBJECT: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS 2012
Mike
Feel free to post it. However none of this discussion bothers me. As
ED my job is to enforce the rules, many of which were not last year
for various reasons. I do not remember if we have ever run a NATS as
close to tge rule book as possible. This year I plan to change that.
Maybe doing so will be a catalyst to change some of the rules. Only
time will tell.
Arch
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 13, 2011, at 10:44 AM, "Michael S. Harrison" wrote:
Arch,
I would like to post this or would you post this on the nsrca list?
I think it leaves the discussion up in the air regarding yours and my
thoughts.
Thanks
Mike
FROM: Michael S. Harrison [mailto:drmikedds at sbcglobal.net [4]]
SENT: Monday, December 12, 2011 4:17 PM
TO: 'Archie Stafford'
SUBJECT: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS 2012
Archie,
Very good response and I agree with all you have said. My
frustrations with the weight rule is that those in rules making
capacity are in my opinion, displaying little or no vision or have
emotional bias to stop them from making objective clear forward
thinking decisions. Of course the nats is not the place to make those
changes but sometimes extreme measures should occur. I agree the
flyers need to have the courtesy and presence of mind to enter at a
reasonable period.
I am on board with you 100% and I applaud you for taking on the
task.
Thanks
Mike
FROM: Archie Stafford [mailto:astafford at md.metrocast.net [5]]
SENT: Monday, December 12, 2011 4:56 PM
TO: Michael S. Harrison; 'General pattern discussion'
SUBJECT: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS 2012
Mike,
As you can imagine I have heard these objections and while I
certainly understand and appreciate them, I disagree. I feel that
this is a National Championship and as such the rules should be
followed as closely to the letter as possible. This also makes it
much easier regarding protests and such. Regardless of the opinions
on the weight rule, it is in the rule book and I want to follow the
rulebook as closely as possible. I believe in the past that the
biggest obstacle for enforcing this rule was manpower. I don’t
believe this is the case any longer as we now have the Intermediate
pilots who can do this job, since they are not judging. My goal this
year is to run this contest as close to the rulebook as possible with
as few exceptions as possible. I don’t expect everyone to agree
with every decision, but I believe that as it is the National
Championships, it is the one contest a year that as many rules as
possible can be followed. I plan to publish any deviations from the
rules, if there are any after the first of the year once I have all of
the logistics worked out. It is possible that enforcing the rules
may change the mind of enough people that they decide to remove the
weight rule, then so be it, but as long as it is a current rule I plan
to enforce it. Other disciplines have issues like this as well such
as the builder of the model rule in control line stunt. Yet, at the
NATS it is enforced.
Regarding late entries. The dates are now set in stone and will not
be changed. These were established at the NATS planning meeting in
September. The initial entry date has been pushed up until 1 month
prior to the start of the contest and the late deadline is set at 2
weeks prior. After discussing this with Rusty, Dave Guerin, and
others this makes the most sense from a logistical stand point for the
ED and other who are trying to get things setup. The AMA bases the
number of plaques they will supply on the number of entries as of a
certain date (usually 1 month out). The NSRCA could pay for
additional plaques if they wanted, but I don’t see the reason in
this additional cost. I believe that while a few may have schedule
changes, the vast majority of pilots have the dates reserved well in
advance. Some may even have already reserved their rooms. Setting a
hard cut off of two weeks out in my opinion is not an unreasonable and
gives the ED and others a much better chance of planning for things
such as the banquet, pilots meeting BBQ, flight order and others.
I’m sure there will be a few who may still be no shows, but it is
much easier to remove a few pilots than it is to add more in. What I
learned from my discussions from previous ED’s and people from other
disciplines is that the later you allow people to register, the more
that will register late. When people are spending several hundred, if
not thousands of dollars to attend the NATS, a $100.00 or more late
fee will not deter them from registering late. In 2008 when I was
unable to attend the NATS due to being stuck in Iraq for work I had
already registered for the NATS. I considered my entry fee just a
donation to the AMA/NSRCA and realized that I would save much more
than that by not attending. My goal is to have as much planning and
such done before I leave for Muncie, so that when I arrive, as much
preparation work is complete, so I can focus 100% on running the event
rather than trying to find places for a few late entries. I am sure
that there will be growing pains and headaches once I get to Muncie,
but any that can be eliminated ahead of time will do nothing but
benefit the event as a whole. From talking to other ED’s from
various disciplines, one of their biggest headaches is the number of
people that register late. Most would love to have a policy in place
as the pattern NATS have done for setting late deadlines, but they
have faced many obstacles getting their SIG’s to agree to this. As
it has been past policy in pattern, it is easy to leave it alone. It
would also be easy to eliminate, but from these discussions I do not
believe it is the right thing to do. There were several things I
learned at the NATS planning meeting and this was one of them. The
key this year is that these deadlines will be strictly enforced. I
would encourage those who are on the fence about attending to go ahead
and register during the early period and then we can refund the NSRCA
part of your funds back to you up to 2 weeks prior to the start of the
event.
Archie
On 12/12/11 3:19 PM, "Michael S. Harrison" wrote:
I suppose you have all heard my objections to and the pointless
nature of the existing weight limit. In the interest of promoting the
sport and the nationals I would encourage a tolerance level of 8
ounces and weigh the planes at the beginning of the contest and forget
about it until finals day. On that day weigh the finalists and do the
contest. This unfortunately has turned into a weight contest-not a
flying contest. I have heard all the arguments about how easy it is
to make weight and it is easy to build light aircraft…blah, blah
blah., well, I disagree and the weight rule is pointless. It does
not affect anything to have a little heavier aircraft, and in most
instances is much safer to have aircraft that are a little heavier but
much stronger ,thus much safer.
As event director, you can implement mods to the rules for the above
reasons-promote the sport, safety and whatever else.
I very much support FAI, but they pretty much have blown us off as
far as input but they sure don’t blow off our serious financial
support. I disagree with them on this point and I have discussed the
issue with a few of them including the head of CIAM and they gave me
absolutely no compelling argument for the restrictive weight rule.
I would encourage you minimize your manpower usage in that area. I
would never want that job.
M2c
Mike
FROM: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [7]
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] [8] ON BEHALF OF
Archie Stafford
SENT: Monday, December 12, 2011 1:39 PM
TO: General pattern discussion; General pattern discussion
SUBJECT: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS 2012
Ron,
I certainly understand there are challenges, and I'm also almost
certain that these challenges can be worked through, especially if we
maybe only end up weighing once per day or something. We are working
on the logistics now and will have a better plan after the first of
the year. The rules will be followed though and after calibrating the
scales there will not be allowances above the rules. If an airplane is
weighed and comes in heavy, we will recalibrate the scales and verify
they were correct. My gut feeling is that not many planes will have a
problem and constant recalibration will not be necessary. We may
find this is not necessarily the case, but I would be surprised if it
is as I have played with the scales I have and after many weights of
differing amounts the calibration seems to hold true. My plan is
after a flight the pilot brings the plane back to a tent area, much
like the worlds and the plane will be weighed there. If the plane is
under weight, nothing else happens and his scores will be submitted to
the score keeper. If the plane is over weight the site director will
come inside the tent area and verify the over weight plane. Obviously
in this case the scales would be recalibrated. If the plane is still
overweight the pilot will receive a zero score for that round, but
will be allowed to fly his next round. A pilot could if he wanted
fail every weight check, and just get no scores for those rounds. I
have no doubt there will be growing pains involved, but my hope is
that if pilots know 8 months in advance that they will be weighed that
they will take the steps necessary to ensure the aircraft is under
weight prior to arriving in Muncie. I understand logistically this
may pose some problems, but we do have quite a bit of man power
available with intermediate pilots now being part of the judging pool.
Granted, they would not be able to do this during the time they are
flying, but then we would only need 3 additional people per day, which
we can take from the other classes. Having spoken to many people
involved, we don't see that there is any reason why we should not be
able to do this with adequate planning. I have verified that we have
access to the tents that were used at the worlds and one will be setup
at each location on Sunday before the pilots meeting to allow pilots
to verify the weight of their aircraft. If a pilot chooses not to
take advantage of this opportunity it is on them.
Arch
On Mon 12/12/11 1:52 PM , Ronald Van Putte wrote:
All I can say about weighing every airplane at processing and maybe
after every flight is: good luck.
John Fuqua and I did all the weighing at the at the F3A WC last
year. There were 82 contestants and many had two airplanes. We
weighed every one of them at processing. That's a lot of weighing.
Then, we weighed every electric-powered airplane after every flight.
In addition, we weighed the glow-powered airplanes whose owners were
unlucky to pull the "wrong" ball after each flight. We worked from
the prelims through the finals and neither of us want to do it again.
We were particularly unhappy that a weight tolerance was given, even
though we provided accurate scales and calibration weights with
certification papers. What was done appeared to be counter to F3A
rules. I understand why a weight tolerance will be given to
Intermediate pilots, but hope the the 5000 gram limit will apply to
all the rest of the competitors.
Ron Van Putte
On Dec 12, 2011, at 12:30 PM, Archie Stafford wrote:
Hello everyone. I trust that everyone is anxiously awaiting a shiny
new pattern <
[10]http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=7016
[11]> plane or gizmo arriving at Christmas this year. I realize we
are a ways away from the NATS 2012, but its never too early to start
communicating. The official entry forms are now online at the
following link.
http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/nats/entryforms.aspx [12] <
[13]http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/nats/entryforms.aspx [14]>
Entry forms will still be mailed to those who attended last year, but
for anyone wishing to get a jump on things and get registered now you
can download the entry form and send them in. I plan <
[15]http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=5582
[16]> to start putting out monthly status updates after the first of
the year so that everyone knows where things stand. I have a great
group of people who have volunteered to help and everything is coming
together very nicely.
A few things worth mentionings are that the banquet will be held the
night <
[17]http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=6133
[18]> before the finals this year. It will be held on site at the
banquet area at the museum and will be catered. Final catering details
have not been finalized yet. At this banquet, the Masters and FAI
finalists will be announced and flight orders drawn. This is possible
this year due to the rule change that there will no longer be an
unknowns meeting per the new FAI rules. The unknowns will be created
by the Event Director and handed out to the finalists at the banquet.
This will also allow the Intermediate and Advanced winners to be
announced in front of the entire group.
Another item to be aware of is that EVERY airplane will be weighed
this year. We are still finalizing plans on the most efficient way to
do this, but be aware that every airplane will be weighed this year
and it will be after a flight. Ideally they will be weighed after
every flight, but at least once a day is my goal. We learned a lot
from how it was done at the worlds last year and this should not be
difficult to do as we have intermediate pilots who no longer work
transmitter impound that we can use as well as some other people
involved. As I said, the plans are not finalized, but we are working
very hard on them and after the first of the year I will let everyone
know what we have come up with as a final plan. My goal is to stay in
contact with everyone so that no one can say they didn't know.
One other important piece of information are the cut off deadlines.
They will be strictly enforced. They have been moved slightly closer
to the actual start of the NATS, but no entries after the final
deadline will be accepted. No exceptions. One change though is that up
until the final cut off we will be able to issue refunds. We will not
be able to issue the refund from the AMA part of the entry fee, but
the NSRCA part of the fee will be refunded.
Looking forward to seeing everyone in Muncie in July.
Please limit discussions to useful information regarding this
thread. Also, if you have a complaint on how things have been done, I
am more than open to listen, but please have ideas on how to correct
these issues.
Archie Stafford
2012 Pattern NATS ED
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