[NSRCA-discussion] FW: NATS 2012

Tue Dec 13 09:02:17 AKST 2011

I'm in total agreement with Archie on the application of the rules across
all the classes.  I also hope that Archie will run F3A according to the FAI
rules as well - 4 rounds of equal exposure followed by a semi-finals and
then a finals.  We have not had equal exposure at the Nats for a number of
years in F3A and this should be applied in a Team Selection year in order
to make it equitable for ALL F3A pilots

On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 8:23 AM, Michael S. Harrison <
drmikedds at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Archie Stafford [mailto:astafford at md.metrocast.net]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 13, 2011 9:55 AM
> *To:* Michael S. Harrison
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS 2012****
>
> ** **
>
> Mike****
>
> ** **
>
> Feel free to post it. However none of this discussion bothers me. As ED my
> job is to enforce the rules, many of which were not last year for various
> reasons. I do not remember if we have ever run a NATS as close to tge rule
> book as possible. This year I plan to change that. Maybe doing so will be a
> catalyst to change some of the rules. Only time will tell. ****
>
> ** **
>
> Arch
>
> Sent from my iPhone****
>
>
> On Dec 13, 2011, at 10:44 AM, "Michael S. Harrison" <
> drmikedds at sbcglobal.net> wrote:****
>
> Arch,****
>
> I would like to post this or would you post this on the nsrca list?  I
> think it leaves the discussion up in the air regarding yours and my
> thoughts.****
>
> Thanks****
>
> Mike ****
>
>  ****
>
> *From:* Michael S. Harrison [mailto:drmikedds at sbcglobal.net]
> *Sent:* Monday, December 12, 2011 4:17 PM
> *To:* 'Archie Stafford'
> *Subject:* RE: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS 2012****
>
>  ****
>
> Archie,****
>
> Very good response and I agree with all you have said.  My frustrations
> with the weight rule is that those in rules making capacity are in my
> opinion, displaying little or no vision or have emotional bias to stop them
> from making objective clear forward thinking decisions.  Of course the nats
> is not the place to make those changes but sometimes extreme measures
> should occur.  I agree the flyers need to have the courtesy and presence of
> mind to enter at a reasonable period.  ****
>
>  ****
>
> I am on board with you 100% and I applaud you for taking on the task.  ***
> *
>
>  ****
>
> Thanks****
>
> Mike ****
>
>  ****
>
> *From:* Archie Stafford [mailto:astafford at md.metrocast.net]
> *Sent:* Monday, December 12, 2011 4:56 PM
> *To:* Michael S. Harrison; 'General pattern discussion'
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS 2012****
>
>  ****
>
> Mike,
>
> As you can imagine I have heard these objections and while I certainly
> understand and appreciate them, I disagree.  I feel that this is a National
> Championship and as such the rules should be followed as closely to the
> letter as possible.  This also makes it much easier regarding protests and
> such.  Regardless of the opinions on the weight rule, it is in the rule
> book and I want to follow the rulebook as closely as possible.  I believe
> in the past that the biggest obstacle for enforcing this rule was manpower.
>  I don’t believe this is the case any longer as we now have the
> Intermediate pilots who can do this job, since they are not judging.  My
> goal this year is to run this contest as close to the rulebook as possible
> with as few exceptions as possible.  I don’t expect everyone to agree with
> every decision, but I believe that as it is the National Championships, it
> is the one contest a year that as many rules as possible can be followed.
>  I plan to publish any deviations from the rules, if there are any after
> the first of the year once I have all of the logistics worked out.    It is
> possible that enforcing the rules may change the mind of enough people that
> they decide to remove the weight rule, then so be it, but as long as it is
> a current rule I plan to enforce it.  Other disciplines have issues like
> this as well such as the builder of the model rule in control line stunt.
>  Yet, at the NATS it is enforced.
>
> Regarding late entries.  The dates are now set in stone and will not be
> changed.  These were established at the NATS planning meeting in September.
>  The initial entry date has been pushed up until 1 month prior to the start
> of the contest and the late deadline is set at 2 weeks prior.  After
> discussing this with Rusty, Dave Guerin, and others this makes the most
> sense from a logistical stand point for the ED and other who are trying to
> get things setup.  The AMA bases the number of plaques they will supply on
> the number of entries as of a certain date (usually 1 month out).  The
> NSRCA could pay for additional plaques if they wanted, but I don’t see the
> reason in this additional cost.  I believe that while a few may have
> schedule changes, the vast majority of pilots have the dates reserved well
> in advance.  Some may even have already reserved their rooms.  Setting a
> hard cut off of two weeks out in my opinion is not an unreasonable and
> gives the ED and others a much better chance of planning for things such as
> the banquet, pilots meeting BBQ, flight order and others.  I’m sure there
> will be a few who may still be no shows, but it is much easier to remove a
> few pilots than it is to add more in.  What I learned from my discussions
> from previous ED’s and people from other disciplines is that the later you
> allow people to register, the more that will register late.  When people
> are spending several hundred, if not thousands of dollars to attend the
> NATS, a $100.00 or more late fee will not deter them from registering late.
>  In 2008 when I was unable to attend the NATS due to being stuck in Iraq
> for work I had already registered for the NATS.  I considered my entry fee
> just a donation to the AMA/NSRCA and realized that I would save much more
> than that by not attending.  My goal is to have as much planning and such
> done before I leave for Muncie, so that when I arrive, as much preparation
> work is complete, so I can focus 100% on running the event rather than
> trying to find places for a few late entries.  I am sure that there will be
> growing pains and headaches once I get to Muncie, but any that can be
> eliminated ahead of time will do nothing but benefit the event as a whole.
>  From talking to other ED’s from various disciplines, one of their biggest
> headaches is the number of people that register late.  Most would love to
> have a policy in place as the pattern NATS have done for setting late
> deadlines, but they have faced many obstacles getting their SIG’s to agree
> to this.  As it has been past policy in pattern, it is easy to leave it
> alone.  It would also be easy to eliminate, but from these discussions I do
> not believe it is the right thing to do.  There were several things I
> learned at the NATS planning meeting and this was one of them.  The key
> this year is that these deadlines will be strictly enforced.  I would
> encourage those who are on the fence about attending to go ahead and
> register during the early period and then we can refund the NSRCA part of
> your funds back to you up to 2 weeks prior to the start of the event.
>
> Archie
>
>
> On 12/12/11 3:19 PM, "Michael S. Harrison" <drmikedds at sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:****
>
> I suppose you have all heard my objections to  and the pointless nature of
> the existing weight limit.  In the interest of promoting the sport and the
> nationals I would encourage a tolerance level of 8 ounces and weigh the
> planes at the beginning of the contest and forget about it until finals
> day.  On that day weigh the finalists and do the contest.  This
> unfortunately has turned into a weight contest-not a flying contest.  I
> have heard all the arguments about how easy it is to make weight and it is
> easy to build light aircraft…blah, blah blah.,  well, I disagree and the
> weight rule is pointless.  It does not affect anything to have a little
> heavier aircraft, and in most instances is much safer to have aircraft that
> are a little heavier but much stronger ,thus much safer.
>
> As event director, you can implement mods to the rules for the above
> reasons-promote the sport, safety and whatever else.
>
> I very much support FAI, but they pretty much  have blown us off as far as
> input but they sure don’t blow off our serious financial support.  I
> disagree with them on this point and I have discussed the issue with a few
> of them including the head of CIAM and they gave me absolutely no
> compelling argument for the restrictive weight rule.
>
> I would encourage you minimize your manpower usage in that area.  I would
> never want that job.
> M2c
> Mike
>
>
> *From:* nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [
> mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]<nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]>
> *On Behalf Of *Archie Stafford
> *Sent:* Monday, December 12, 2011 1:39 PM
> *To:* General pattern discussion; General pattern discussion
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS 2012
>
> Ron,
>
> I certainly understand there are challenges, and I'm also almost certain
> that these challenges can be worked through, especially if we maybe only
> end up weighing once per day or something.  We are working on the logistics
> now and will have a better plan after the first of the year.  The rules
> will be followed though and after calibrating the scales there will not be
> allowances above the rules. If an airplane is weighed and comes in heavy,
> we will recalibrate the scales and verify they were correct.  My gut
> feeling is that not many planes will have a problem and constant
> recalibration will not be necessary.   We may find this is not necessarily
> the case, but I would be surprised if it is as I have played with the
> scales I have and after many weights of differing amounts the calibration
> seems to hold true.  My plan is after a flight the pilot brings the plane
> back to a tent area, much like the worlds and the plane will be weighed
> there.  If the plane is under weight, nothing else happens and his scores
> will be submitted to the score keeper.  If the plane is over weight the
> site director will come inside the tent area and verify the over weight
> plane.  Obviously in this case the scales would be recalibrated.  If the
> plane is still overweight the pilot will receive a zero score for that
> round, but will be allowed to fly his next round.  A pilot could if he
> wanted fail every weight check, and just get no scores for those rounds.  I
> have no doubt there will be growing pains involved, but my hope is that if
> pilots know 8 months in advance that they will be weighed that they will
> take the steps necessary to ensure the aircraft is under weight prior to
> arriving in Muncie.  I understand logistically this may pose some problems,
> but we do have quite a bit of man power available with intermediate pilots
> now being part of the judging pool.  Granted, they would not be able to do
> this during the time they are flying, but then we would only need 3
> additional people per day, which we can take from the other classes.
>  Having spoken to many people involved, we don't see that there is any
> reason why we should not be able to do this with adequate planning.  I have
> verified that we have access to the tents that were used at the worlds and
> one will be setup at each location on Sunday before the pilots meeting to
> allow pilots to verify the weight of their aircraft.   If a pilot chooses
> not to take advantage of this opportunity it is on them.
>
> Arch
>
>
> On Mon 12/12/11 1:52 PM , Ronald Van Putte <vanputte at cox.net> wrote:****
>
>
> All I can say about weighing every airplane at processing and maybe after
> every flight is:  good luck.
>
>
>
> John Fuqua and I did all the weighing at the at the F3A WC last year.
>  There were 82 contestants and many had two airplanes.  We weighed every
> one of them at processing.  That's a lot of weighing.  Then, we weighed
> every electric-powered airplane after every flight.  In addition, we
> weighed the glow-powered airplanes whose owners were unlucky to pull the
> "wrong" ball after each flight.  We worked from the prelims through the
> finals and neither of us want to do it again.
>
>
>
> We were particularly unhappy that a weight tolerance was given, even
> though we provided accurate scales and calibration weights with
> certification papers.  What was done appeared to be counter to F3A rules.
>  I understand why a weight tolerance will be given to Intermediate pilots,
> but hope the the 5000 gram limit will apply to all the rest of the
> competitors.
>
>
>
> Ron Van Putte
>
>
>
> On Dec 12, 2011, at 12:30 PM, Archie Stafford wrote:****
>
>
> Hello everyone. I trust that everyone is anxiously awaiting a shiny new
> pattern < <http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=7016>
> http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=7016>  plane or
> gizmo arriving at Christmas this year. I realize we are a ways away from
> the NATS 2012, but its never too early to start communicating. The official
> entry forms are now online at the following link.
> http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/nats/entryforms.aspx <<http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/nats/entryforms.aspx>
> http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/nats/entryforms.aspx>  Entry forms
> will still be mailed to those who attended last year, but for anyone
> wishing to get a jump on things and get registered now you can download the
> entry form and send them in. I plan <<http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=5582>
> http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=5582>  to start
> putting out monthly status updates after the first of the year so that
> everyone knows where things stand. I have a great group of people who have
> volunteered to help and everything is coming together very nicely.
>
> A few things worth mentionings are that the banquet will be held the night
> < <http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=6133>
> http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=6133>  before
> the finals this year. It will be held on site at the banquet area at the
> museum and will be catered. Final catering details have not been finalized
> yet. At this banquet, the Masters and FAI finalists will be announced and
> flight orders drawn. This is possible this year due to the rule change that
> there will no longer be an unknowns meeting per the new FAI rules. The
> unknowns will be created by the Event Director and handed out to the
> finalists at the banquet. This will also allow the Intermediate and
> Advanced winners to be announced in front of the entire group.
>
> Another item to be aware of is that EVERY airplane will be weighed this
> year. We are still finalizing plans on the most efficient way to do this,
> but be aware that every airplane will be weighed this year and it will be
> after a flight. Ideally they will be weighed after every flight, but at
> least once a day is my goal. We learned a lot from how it was done at the
> worlds last year and this should not be difficult to do as we have
> intermediate pilots who no longer work transmitter impound that we can use
> as well as some other people involved. As I said, the plans are not
> finalized, but we are working very hard on them and after the first of the
> year I will let everyone know what we have come up with as a final plan. My
> goal is to stay in contact with everyone so that no one can say they didn't
> know.
>
> One other important piece of information are the cut off deadlines. They
> will be strictly enforced. They have been moved slightly closer to the
> actual start of the NATS, but no entries after the final deadline will be
> accepted. No exceptions. One change though is that up until the final cut
> off we will be able to issue refunds. We will not be able to issue the
> refund from the AMA part of the entry fee, but the NSRCA part of the fee
> will be refunded.
>
> Looking forward to seeing everyone in Muncie in July.
>
> Please limit discussions to useful information regarding this thread.
> Also, if you have a complaint on how things have been done, I am more than
> open to listen, but please have ideas on how to correct these issues.
>
> Archie Stafford
> 2012 Pattern NATS ED
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <javascript:top.opencompose('
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org','','','')>
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>  ****
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20111213/89166bb9/attachment.html>