[NSRCA-discussion] unknowns

[Vicente "Vince" Bortone]

What activities the judges have before starting the WC?  I assume that event of this level requires that judges are calibrated before the contest.  This is more important in this case because they came from all continents.  



In 2003 I have the opportunity to organize the flying judging for the US Scale Masters.  We had 60 pilots in 4 dasy  of flying.  We had 12 judges.  We started to practice judging one year before the contest.  Yes, one year.  We meet every two weeks to study the rule book and make sure all understood the rules.  We went to local airports to see real planes landing and taking off to get the speed perception that is very important in scale competition.  Around two months before the contest we invited pilots to fly scale planes in front of us.  We judged and discussed the downgrades after each fly.  At the end of this process all judges were withing one 1/2 point.  I had only one pilot complaining because he got zeros from 4 judges in two rounds.  He asked me why.  I judged one of the round.  This pilot was flying a C-47 that was a work-of-art.  The engines came to life with electric starters so he never touched the plane when got ready to fly.  He also dressed like the real C-47 pilots in that time.  It was amazing.  However, he forgot the rule that the center of the runway is the dead line and he crossed that line in two rounds in two maneuvers.  Believe me, it is hard to write that zero in that particular case.  All judges were so well calibrated and understood the rules that they were sure when they wrote the zero.   It was very easy for me to explain to that pilot.   This was my best aeromodeling experience.  If someone wants to see pictures I have a power point file with pictures of this event.  Just send me an e-mail and I will send you the file.  



In conclusion,  I really think that judges for the WC has to be at the site at least one week before the contest.  During the week prior they should have calibration/re-training activities.  I am sure that they will find a lot of pilots that will be willing to fly so they can practice.       

Vicente "Vince" Bortone 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill Glaze" < billglaze @ bellsouth .net> 
To: "General pattern discussion" < nsrca -discussion at lists. nsrca .org> 
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:01:39 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central 
Subject: Re: [ NSRCA -discussion] unknowns 

Gentlemen:  Thanks for writing.  Suspicions confirmed.  Bill Glaze 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tony" <tony@ radiosouthrc .com> 
To: " 'General pattern discussion' " < nsrca -discussion at lists. nsrca .org> 
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 8:32 PM 
Subject: Re: [ NSRCA -discussion] unknowns 


> Ron is absolutely correct!  My "sorry I ever wrote what is below" 
> statement 
> would be that the very best judged contest I attended was, in my opinion, 
> the F3A Team Trials when they were a separate event. 
> 
> The absolutely worst contest was just about every F3A World Championships 
> I 
> have attended either as a CD or a Team Manager! 
> 
> 
> 
> Tony Stillman, President 
> Radio South, Inc. 
> 139 Altama Connector, Box 322 
> Brunswick, GA  31525 
> 1-800-962-7802 
> www . radiosouthrc .com 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: nsrca -discussion-bounces at lists. nsrca .org 
> [ mailto : nsrca -discussion-bounces at lists. nsrca .org] On Behalf Of Ron Van 
> Putte 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 7:53 PM 
> To: General pattern discussion 
> Subject: Re: [ NSRCA -discussion] unknowns 
> 
> I am probably going to be sorry I ever wrote what is below, but I 
> think now is the time. 
> 
> If you've never critically watched an F3A World Championships, you 
> can't understand what goes on.  You can fly a perfect flight and get 
> hammered. 
> 
> First, many country's judges NEVER judge at all between F3A World 
> Championships.  Many poor judges, in my opinion, are at EVERY F3A 
> World Championships.  Just why some countries continue to send the 
> same poor judges, again my opinion, over and over, I don't understand. 
> 
> Second, it seems that there is an understanding on how scoring will 
> be done among some countries' judges.  For example, at one F3A World 
> Championships, flying far out not only was not downgraded, but flying 
> at 150 meters, where the aircraft is supposed to be, was downgraded. 
> At others, rules will be "bent" by the judges and it is up to the 
> pilots and team managers to figure out what (that's not in the rules) 
> the judges are looking for. 
> 
> At the 1995 F3A World Championships in Kasaoka , Japan, I was the U.S. 
> judge.  During the Preliminaries, one country's judge was censured in 
> front of all the other judges for scoring the pilots from his 
> country's team too high.  Then, in the Finals, I found out later that 
> it was determined that I was favoring the U.S. pilots, but I did not, 
> to my knowledge, change my judging standards.  Apparently I either 
> didn't judge fairly, or I didn't get the word that the judging 
> standards were to be changed for the Finals. 
> 
> You can ask Tony Stillman, Quique Somenzini , Chip Hyde, Jason 
> Shulman , Sean McMurtry ,  or any other active pilots at the F3A world- 
> class level, what they think of F3A World Championships judges.  Just 
> don't ask them to do it publicly, where any F3A judges might read/ 
> hear it, or they would be sure to be 'rewarded' by those judges at 
> the next F3A WC. 
> 
> Ron Van Putte 
> 
> On Sep 23, 2009, at 6:46 PM, Tony wrote: 
> 
>> Tom: 
>> As a past 4-time USA F3A Team Manager, I saw a BUNCH of "unknown" 
>> pilots fly 
>> FANTASTIC sequences and not get anywhere near the score they 
>> deserved...  I 
>> can remember in Poland sitting with Chris Lakin and Kirk Grey watching 
>> several pilots and one was just fantastic!  Chris and Kirk looked 
>> at each 
>> other and we need to check his scores!  When they came out they 
>> were very 
>> low...  very sad. 
>> 
>> 
>> Tony Stillman, President 
>> Radio South, Inc. 
>> 139 Altama Connector, Box 322 
>> Brunswick, GA  31525 
>> 1-800-962-7802 
>> www . radiosouthrc .com 
>> 
>> -----Original Message----- 
>> From: nsrca -discussion-bounces at lists. nsrca .org 
>> [ mailto : nsrca -discussion-bounces at lists. nsrca .org] On Behalf Of 
>> Koenig , Tom 
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 6:15 PM 
>> To: 'General pattern discussion' 
>> Subject: Re: [ NSRCA -discussion] unknowns 
>> 
>> Ron and all, 
>> 
>> I LOVE your suggestion. At least then we may have a chance of 
>> obtaining the 
>> correct placings and/or the correct world champion? 
>> Also-do not forget the cost savings to the organisation in that the 
>> airfares 
>> will be considerably cheaper by obtaining more 'local' judges. This 
>> is a big 
>> driver for the 'European' hosts....and why countries like Australia 
>> and NZ 
>> tend be disregarded if at all possible. We have issues in that 
>> Southern 
>> hemisphere countries always come from Winter climates where we have 
>> limited 
>> oppertunities to actually prepare/practice for a Northern (summer) 
>> world 
>> champs. 
>> 
>> I have also heard suggestions from W/C contest pilots ( not just 
>> the aussie 
>> team btw ), that the they wished they could not be 'identified'i .e 
>> that they 
>> be infront of some sort of screen whereby the judges could not 
>> identify the 
>> actual pilot. 
>> 
>> Sure-some models could be used as a way of identifying the pilot, 
>> but there 
>> are plenty of the 'same' models being used these days. 
>> 
>> I thought that was a cool and perhaps 'do-able' thing? More 
>> realistic than 
>> some sort of computerised/video 'tracking' , despite such technology 
>> existing. 
>> 
>> Tom 
>> 
>> -----Original Message----- 
>> From: nsrca -discussion-bounces at lists. nsrca .org 
>> [ mailto : nsrca -discussion-bounces at lists. nsrca .org] On Behalf Of Ron 
>> Van Putte 
>> Sent: Thursday, 24 September 2009 4:57 
>> To: General pattern discussion 
>> Subject: Re: [ NSRCA -discussion] unknowns 
>> 
>> I smile every time I think about this:  The F3A World Championships 
>> host 
>> gets a list of potential judges from which to pick.  The total list is 
>> predominantly European judges.  Most F3A WCs end up with predominantly 
>> European judges. The preponderance of European judges 
>> dictates how judging will be done.   However, what if the list of 
>> judges for the 2111 F3A WC is mostly made up of a judge from the U.S., 
>> Canada, Mexico, South Africa, New Zealand , Australia, China, Japan, 
>> Argentina, Venezuela, etc , such that it that it is NOT made 
>> up of predominantly European judges?  Who gets to pick the judges? 
>> As the host organization, the NSRCA does. 
>> 
>> Ron VP 
>> 
>> On Sep 23, 2009, at 1:19 PM, Don Ramsey wrote: 
>> 
>>> Matt, 
>>> 
>>> You will be disappointed to know that all the World Judges want to 
>>> have rolling circles.  I objected strongly and thought I made a good 
>>> argument; loss of fields, over houses, too much real estate, etc. 
>>> But, they still want the rolling circles in all future patterns and 
>>> especially F patterns.  It sure limits the number of fields that can 
>>> fly those patterns unless the pilots decide to roll in. 
>>> 
>>> Don 
>>> 
>>> From: nsrca -discussion-bounces at lists. nsrca .org [ mailto : nsrca - 
>>> discussion-bounces at lists. nsrca .org] On Behalf Of rcmaster199@ aol .com 
>>> 
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 11:32 AM 
>>> To: nsrca -discussion at lists. nsrca .org 
>>> Subject: Re: [ NSRCA -discussion] unknowns 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> It seems to me that we keep "learning" the same lessons but some just 
>>> never get the memo. Rolling circles are very neat differentiating 
>>> maneuvers BUT not desirable in neither IMAC nor Pattern circles. They 
>>> simply consume too much real estate and contradict the very 
>>> essence of 
>>> why we in Pattern moved to quiet our models. Noise reduction 
>>> footprint 
>>> was at the core of that effort some 25 years ago. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> As my good friend Dean Pappas and I have discussed on many occasions, 
>>> rolling loops, segments, variations, etc. are just as neat as circles 
>>> and consume no more footprint than the typical schedule would. Oh 
>>> BTW, 
>>> these are far less difficult to judge objectively 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> MattK 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message----- 
>>> From: Ed Alt < ed_alt @ hotmail .com> 
>>> To: nsrca -discussion at lists. nsrca .org 
>>> Sent: Tue, Sep 22, 2009 10:08 pm 
>>> Subject: Re: [ NSRCA -discussion] unknowns 
>>> 
>>> It's funny.  I brought my 40% Carden out of mothballs last weekend to 
>>> work on the F3M stuff and all I wanted to do was fly it like a 
>>> pattern 
>>> airplane.   Ofcourse it doesn't quite measure up, but I found that I 
>>> really have no enthusiasm left for wapping through 
>>> rolls where the only skill involved is being able to stop on time. 
>>> I admit, on the last flight of the day I digressed and did about 10 
>>> minutes of 3d-ish garbage, until I finally realized that it was 
>>> really 
>>> not very satisfying.   Foamies are more fun these days than 
>>> knocking the sticks around on a 40 % gasser .   I guess I'm just 
>>> getting old... 
>>> 
>>> Ed 
>>> 
>>>> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 08:44:06 -0700 
>>>> From: seefo @ san . rr .com 
>>>> To: nsrca -discussion at lists. nsrca .org 
>>>> Subject: Re: [ NSRCA -discussion] unknowns 
>>>> 
>>>> Vince, 
>>>> 
>>>> The "Slow Roll" in IAC does not equate to a pattern slow roll. 
>>> The IAC 
>>>> Slow Roll is just a roll, and the term slow is used to 
>>> differentiate it 
>>>> from a point roll or snap roll. In truth, the IAC slow roll is never 
>>>> flown at anything but maximum roll rate available. 
>>>> 
>>>> -Doug 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Yes, partial rolling circles are introduced in the Intermediate 
>>>>> class. As we know, there is not way to do rollers by rolling fast. 
>>>>> IMAC is missing to introduce the slow roll in Sportsman's 
>>> class. I am 
>>>>> not sure why since IAC includes the slow roll. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
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