[NSRCA-discussion] unknowns

Tue Sep 22 06:45:08 AKDT 2009

3-4 years I was flying a QQ-YAK with OS 160 against other 7-8 pilots using 35-40% planes.  This was Sportsman class.  I never though that I could win using this plane.  Well, I finishing winning all rounds including the unknowns . I didn't fly close and small.  I was doing the center maneuvers in the center trying to use less space.  As you know, there is very strong competition in the Sportsman class.  Probably the IMAC pilots in this region are following the rulebook closer than the Southeast region.    

Vicente "Vince" Bortone 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim Woodward (US SSA)" < jim . woodward @ baesystems .com> 
To: "General pattern discussion" < nsrca -discussion at lists. nsrca .org> 
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 9:30:05 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central 
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] unknowns 

Vicente  - good points too –the rolling circle is tough and this particular maneuver also discourages some folks from moving up.  Like you said, there are many similarities too.  The hardest thing about flying IMAC and pattern is going from a lot of IMAC practice, to flying the smaller pattern plane again.  IMAC in the South East anyway, is strongly encouraging to fly the 40% planes as close to the runway as possible – well inside 150 meters to put a number on it.  So, going from flying a huge plane close, to a smaller plane “far” away, is very uncomfortable for me.  It takes like 10-20 flights to feel “ahead” of the pattern plane again if say, you dedicated 6 weeks to IMAC flying then switched back to pattern.  However, going from the pattern plane to IMAC plane is cake – you are ready for competition in 3 flights. 

Jim 

From: nsrca -discussion-bounces at lists. nsrca .org [mailto: nsrca -discussion-bounces at lists. nsrca .org] On Behalf Of Vicente "Vince" Bortone 
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 10:21 AM 
To: General pattern discussion 
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] unknowns 

I fly IMAC Intermediate class since many years ago.  Probably 1-2 contest per year because contest is too far from KC.  Jim is very close in his description.  However, I found that if you fly with the same goals we fly in pattern you will have very high chance to win in IMAC .  The rules are very close (read the snap roll and you will be surprised how close is to pattern AMA and F3A, IMAC and IAC).  I think the Sportsman’s IMAC pilots get stuck in that class because they have to fly partial rollers in Intermediate IMAC without learning to do slow roll first.  Looks like  IMAC don't want to do slow roll because is a pattern maneuver.  If you check the IAC maneuvers you will find that they have slow roll.  In conclusion, I believe we have very close goals but we are always looking for ways to find differences when really there is not a huge difference after we read the rulebooks.  

By the way, I am using soft mount in my YAK (DA 100 with canisters and 3 lade prop).  One time I got to a contest and started the engine to get ready.  A couple of pilots in the other side of the field came to ask me if my motor was electric.  IMAC guys do not use soft mounts just because pattern guys use soft mounts.  It is similar to the elimination of center manuevers to the judges.  The excuse to eliminate center manuevers was because IMAC goal is to reduce the footprint.  However, I don't understand how you reduce the footprint without doing the center manuever in the center.  Go and figure.     

Vicente "Vince" Bortone 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "mike mueller" <mups1953 at yahoo.com> 
To: "General pattern discussion" < nsrca -discussion at lists. nsrca .org> 
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 8:57:05 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central 
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] unknowns 

 Wow Jim that is the best explaination of the difference I've ever seen. Thanks for that post I will save it and use it again. 
 I'd love to try IMAC someday but it's a time and resource problem to do so at this point. We have a number of IMAC guys at my field and I like them all. I find we have a lot in common but your right about the differences too. Thanks, Mike Mueller 

--- On Tue, 9/22/09, Woodward, Jim (US SSA) < jim . woodward @ baesystems .com> wrote: 

> From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) < jim . woodward @ baesystems .com> 
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] unknowns 
> To: "General pattern discussion" < nsrca -discussion at lists. nsrca .org> 
> Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 8:46 AM 
> 
> 
> 
>   
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> Unknowns in pattern?  IMAC 
> versus pattern?    
> 
>    
> 
> I’ve flown a bunch of 
> IMAC over the last 4 years.  
> IMAC and Pattern answer two different questions, and each 
> group has DISTINCTLY different 
> personalities.  At the end of a pattern contest, you 
> will see who flew the 
> sequences the best (usually the best pilot).  At the 
> end of an IMAC 
> contest, you will get closer to seeing who the best pilot 
> is in that 
> class.  There are pros and cons for each, each fitting 
> the personalities 
> of the groups. 
> 
>    
> 
> Pattern:  Is about 
> learning the fundamentals of precision 
> flight. Group is not too excited about changing sequences 
> too often, especially 
> for the lower classes.  It is a pattern-truth that the 
> lower classes are 
> designed to build piloting skill and teach precision 
> aerobatics fundamentals 
> (wings level and such).  This group recognizes that 
> guys don’t get 
> to fly every day, and the goal is “fly your sequence 
> the best you can.”  
> Lower classes are not considered “destination” 
> classes.  
> Pattern guys almost 100% of the time can get into Advanced 
> and Masters, with 
> F3A being hit or miss.  Pattern guys believe it is 
> “fair” that 
> the competition is only the  “known” 
> sequences because this 
> levels the playing field – anyone can compete because 
> we know what is 
> going to be flown ahead of time, and the tier-2 kind of 
> pilot has a competitive 
> chance against tier-1 pilot, per se’.  
>  Pattern guys want to 
> know what the rules are, and then build a plane within the 
> rules and maximize 
> what they can.  Pattern guys are open, and keep all 
> contests open to 
> whoever can make it. 
> 
>    
> 
> IMAC :  almost 100% 
> opposite to the pattern 
> personality.  Guys don’t like rules!  Do 
> not want rules applied 
> to planes (… no support for even adequate mufflers or 
> tuned 
> pipes/silencers). Not willing to “describe” 
> airspace or where 
> maneuvers are flown (read ACS definition if like and let us 
> know what the criteria 
> is).  IMAC does not encourage moving up in the way the 
> culture of pattern 
> does – plenty of guys in IMAC will fly Basic or 
> Sportsman for many 
> years.  Intermediate is realistically the destination 
> class.  Few 
> make it into Advanced, and less into Unlimited.  IMAC 
> guys want to fly new 
> sequences every year, and this sort of offsets the 
> motivation for moving 
> up.  IMAC guys have some affinity for 
> “freestyle” and 
> undisciplined flying – they like that you don’t 
> have to practice 
> the know sequence all the time.  All you need to do is 
> keep “close” 
> in the knowns, and score a high unknown round and you can 
> win the contest due 
> to the higher weighting the unknown round carries.  
> IMAC guys don’t 
> really focus on getting better geometry out of 
> maneuvers  - as hitting 
> snap rolls will make or break you IMAC score.  Using 
> the 0.5/point per 5 
> degree rule, “snap-rolls” are in fact the whole 
> secret to scoring 
> IMAC patterns well – it is a maneuver within a 
> maneuver and you need to 
> learn how your plane snaps at low speed, high speed, 
> power-on, and 
> power-off.  If you can’t hit a snap roll exit, 
> don’t even 
> think about getting into Advanced or Unlimited.  This 
> group likes “exclusivity” 
> or “invitational” events, and this also makes 
> its way into the 
> regional championships.    
> 
>    
> 
> So – there are totally 
> different personalities at work for 
> both organizations.  I like flying unknowns, but I 
> don’t think it is 
> a good mix for precision aerobatics events.  
>  Guys moved from F3A into 
> Masters to get away from the two known sequences, so I 
> don’t think 
> unknowns for the AMA classes really fits into the culture, 
> or our goals of “precision” 
> aerobatics. 
> 
> Thanks, 
> 
> Jim 
> 
> 
> 
>    
> 
> 
> 
>    
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: 
> nsrca -discussion-bounces at lists. nsrca .org 
> [mailto: nsrca -discussion-bounces at lists. nsrca .org] On 
> Behalf Of Anthony 
> Romano 
> 
> Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 8:50 AM 
> 
> To: nsrca -discussion at lists. nsrca .org 
> 
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] unknowns 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>    
> 
> Hi Stu, 
> 
>  Did you happen to find out how they deal with the 
> scoring? If it is 
> national and everyone is using the same program maybe 
> an update could be 
> available for the CD to download prior to the event? 
> 
>  One thing I noticed was a lot of judges 
> with the aresti in one 
> hand and score sheet in the other while judging. Lots of 
> looking away during 
> the flight. I looked over a few shoulder and would have put 
> down some similar 
> numbers. 
> 
>   
> 
> Anthony 
> 
>   
> 
> > Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 08:42:06 -0400 
> 
> > From: schale at optonline.net 
> 
> > To: nsrca -discussion at lists. nsrca .org 
> 
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] unknowns 
> 
> > 
> 
> > OK don't kick me off the list but I flew an IMAC 
> contest last weekend. 
> 
> > (yes in Basic with a pattern plane :) ) 
> 
> > Has any thought been given to flying unknowns as the 
> IMAC guys do? If 
> 
> > you are not familiar with it, on a 2 day contest the 
> unknown is handed 
> 
> > out after flying is done on the first day. The unknown 
> is appropriate 
> 
> > for your class and is the same nationwide for that 
> weekend. You are on 
> 
> > an honor system not to fly it or use a sim (I suspect 
> some people do) 
> 
> > and the first flight of day 2 is the unknown. I 
> believe it can not be a 
> 
> > dropped round. Basic class flies their usual sequence 
> no unknown. It 
> 
> > adds a bit of excitement to the 2nd day of the 
> contest. You have to be 
> 
> > able to do a bunch of maneuvers not in this years 
> sequence but 
> 
> > appropriate for the class. So practice time might be 
> more than 6 
> 
> > identical flights of your current sequence. And most 
> importantly it may 
> 
> > provide for some separation for the top fliers in each 
> class. I had a 
> 
> > lot of fun discussing the sequences with my friends 
> that were there, and 
> 
> > watching and listening to them after flying it. Hard 
> to fly a sequence 
> 
> > for the first time without making a significant 
> error. 
> 
> > 
> 
> > Stuart 
> 
> > 
> 
> > _______________________________________________ 
> 
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> 
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