[NSRCA-discussion] BS about snaps!
seefo at san.rr.com
seefo at san.rr.com
Fri Oct 16 12:21:13 AKDT 2009
Bill,
Back when people were flying with reeds, I believe this WAS possible. My Super Kaos back in the late 70's would snap just fine as well with rudder/elevator. I don't believe a current generation F3A airplane will however.
-Doug
---- Bill Glaze <billglaze at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Doug:
> It IS possible--that's all we used to have, even with multi-channel reeds.
> Input full elevator, and rudder simultaneously. Snaps looked just fine, as
> well as spins, with no aileron input; (You couldn't get but 2 channels at
> the same time). It was, however, more difficult to control the exit point.
> Bill Glaze
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Doug Cronkhite" <seefo at san.rr.com>
> To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 12:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] BS about snaps!
>
>
> >
> > There is a BIG difference between a basic stall (such as on landing) and
> > an accelerated stall (snap roll). I agree that people are getting too
> > wrapped up in the wording though.
> >
> > One thing I disagree with is your assertion that the ailerons are only
> > functioning as spoilers once the stall happens. In full-scale aerobatics
> > that's true, but with F3A airplane wing loadings being what they are, I'm
> > betting that most simply can't 'snap' without ailerons. If that's true,
> > then the snap SHOULD be possible with elevator and rudder only.
> > -Doug
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > shinden1 at cox.net wrote:
> >> Matt perfect explanation. common Sense prevails! its SET UP SET UP SET
> >> UP!!
> >> We have tried to over complicate fundamentals of Model snaps for years
> >> I know every one has stalled an airplane on landing before ..did you see
> >> a pitch break? No, the first thing you "saw" was one wing drop and the
> >> rest occurred immediately after. If you have the room, flying speed is
> >> the only thing that helps recover it.
> >> Anything else you add speeds it up and worsens it.,,,,,Oh!!! I have just
> >> described a perfect spin entry too!
> >> A snap is no different from a spin it`s a stalled "condition" the speed
> >> and inputs are the only difference in mantaining or stopping both
> >> maneuvers. it`s why you cant do a pos spin with a neg spin input.
> >> Im Sorry Guys, but trying to legislate the perfect wording to judge poor
> >> snaps only worsens the problem, the description in place is all we need.
> >> the more we try to describe it ,the higher the scores will be for the
> >> guys performing it already. a perfectly performed FAI snap looks like A
> >> perfectly performed AMA snap.
> >>
> >> The bottom line is, it initially only takes one wing halve to stall
> >> before the chain reaction of events occur. the ailerons act as Spoilers
> >> after each wing half looses lift as it rotates pos and neg. the rest is
> >> predicated on CG position, the actual amount of throw in the remainder
> >> { including throttle ,,or Speed} of the surfaces that will mantain , over
> >> do, or perfect the rotational yaw,pitch , entry, and fuse angle at exit
> >> of the maneuver. Now,figuring out what causes each effect and how to
> >> adjust it is the teachable moment.
> >> I submit the Guys who can Snap consistatly have the best trimmed
> >> airplane.
> >>
> >> The reason it`s the highest k-factor is, it`s the hardest to learn do
> >> correctly
> >> the reason it`s not in the lower classes is because each class should
> >> teach the pilot how to advance in his airplane set up and trimming skills
> >> You just can`t pic up a airplane giver it the control inputs and expect
> >> good results If you put effort in the perfecting of all Snaps ,it can
> >> teach you more about set up and trimming of your model than any other
> >> thing we do with our airplanes. The Snaps Define wether your model is set
> >> up correctly Period.
> >>
> >> The good designers hang their collective hats on this maneuver when
> >> finalizing a design ,,Because this maneuvers will perfect the design or
> >> break it. When you get the snaps Perfect Every thing else in the flight
> >> demands improve ,when its not perfect you will have a few Maneuvers that
> >> suffer from the incompletion of the setup.
> >> The demands of each class schedual should teach whats required ,,,if you
> >> are willing to take the time to experiment and learn.
> >> There have been non engineers performing this maneuver correctly for
> >> decades Although the Explanation of the terms is help full ,,the proper
> >> execution of the snap is a better school master.
> >> I submit the guys having to do the most selling on their snaps .( leading
> >> with up ,down,Elevator) are the ones trying to continually redefine it.
> >> They just dont think it`s possible to perform the maneuver with no
> >> displacement ,,Hog Wash
> >> Next year in the F11 pattern we have 2 versions of a 1.5 snap one from
> >> inverted and one from up rite . I promise you if we perform this maneuver
> >> to show a pitch leading break like some of what I saw judging the Nats
> >> this year the airplane will rise 2-5 meters before the rotation happens
> >> ,,, this is not a snap it`s a sell job. and the same guys doing that
> >> version on a 45 down line will severly downgrade ours.
> >> there is no supper raidio super human input trickery to do a proper snap
> >> ,just a perfect setup.
> >> FAI has to perform up line, downline and level snaps the same set up
> >> rules apply to all these if the airplane is set up right ! there will be
> >> the same input to do them all save if you have brakes on for the Elec
> >> guys LOL.
> >>
> >> So the guys that figure out how to do it with no departure will earn the
> >> Best scores Why ,because it`s precision in the setup delivers the best
> >> and the most consistent execution.
> >> Fake stalls in the spins(switching from High to low rate trick) always
> >> produce a poor non predictable spin as well because you cant tell the
> >> "airplane" that it`s not stalled .sure you can get By ,But there will
> >> always be the Guy who can do it better with a better set up.
> >> Try two spins in opposite directions with a fake entry Or for that Matter
> >> ,,two snaps opposite with a poorly set up airplane ,,,( Ask Beniot or
> >> Seba about this)Very poor results. when the airplane is completely set up
> >> it will have NO weak Maneuvers. You cant tell me Seba don`t know how to
> >> throw two stick in the corner for an inverted Snap LOL,,, no ,,,,He just
> >> cant Lead the Fake as well inverted. A Keen observer picked two snaps
> >> reversed from inverted at the Worlds because he could see the Forgery in
> >> the pos snap previos ,Seba fooled the Judges But not the Pilots .
> >> The Judges applied the Rules ,,,the Pilots applied knowledge and common
> >> sense. saw the weakness in his set up and called him on it
> >> I must tell you it made me happy to see it.
> >>
> >> So ,if you have consistent problems keeping a snap on line during the
> >> execution But see someone who can ,ask them about their setup.
> >> but be prepared to change your "Whole" set up because like I said before
> >> Trim your airplane to fly all snaps and it will perfect the total setup
> >> demand and reduce the needs for rates, condition switches and the Like of
> >> the airplane ,Then force you to change your bad Habits in "every"
> >> Maneuver.
> >> do you have the courage?
> >>
> >> Bryan
> >>
> >>
> >> ---- rcmaster199 at aol.com wrote:
> >>> Jerry Budd explained pretty well the fact that pattern planes are so
> >>> lightly loaded that a?large amount of?force in pitch must exist to cause
> >>> a stall. Stalls, accelerated and/or assymetric,?I don't think are what
> >>> happens in a pattern snap.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I believe an?assymetry in lift does however. Think of the the wing as
> >>> two halves (fancy that) where one sides lifts the equivalent of its
> >>> whole area and the other side only a small percentage. Neither panel is
> >>> stalled per se....one simply lifts less than the other. Yaw will induce
> >>> the differential lift once the wing has been loaded in pitch. Assymetric
> >>> lift will cause the wing to autorotate in roll axis.....we accelerate
> >>> that autorotation with ailerons (duh!!). Some planes will snap with yaw
> >>> command alone once pitch loading has happened. Most pattern planes will
> >>> not because, as Jerry pointed out, it doesn't take a whole lot of lift
> >>> to keep a pattern plane flying
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> My 2c
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> MattK
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>
> >>> From: Martin X. Moleski, SJ <moleski at canisius.edu>
> >>>
> >>> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> >>>
> >>> Sent: Fri, Oct 16, 2009 6:43 am
> >>>
> >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Suggested New Snap Roll (Brake Roll)
> >>> Description
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Keith Black wrote:?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> How about this definition:?
> >>>>
> >>> ?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> At the start of a snap-roll, the fuselage attitude must show a?
> >>>> definite break and separation from the?
> >>>> flight path, before the rotation is started, since the model
> >>>> aircraft?
> >>>> is supposed to be in a stalled?
> >>>> condition throughout the maneuver ...?
> >>>>
> >>> ?
> >>>
> >>> That what Vicente (and others) are arguing is a bad?
> >>>
> >>> definition for our purposes.?
> >>>
> >>> ?
> >>>
> >>> I agree with those who want to remove all references to?
> >>>
> >>> stalling from the definition of the maneuver.?
> >>>
> >>> ?
> >>>
> >>> The model must depart (break away) from all three?
> >>>
> >>> axes. Saying that the first departure must be separated?
> >>>
> >>> from the other two does not make good sense to me.?
> >>>
> >>> ?
> >>>
> >>> Demonstrating the kind of "stall" that leads to a?
> >>>
> >>> spin entry is very different from the assymetric stall?
> >>>
> >>> required for autorotation--at least in my own understanding?
> >>>
> >>> of what accelerated stalls are like.?
> >>>
> >>> ?
> >>>
> >>> ? Marty?
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________?
> >>>
> >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list?
> >>>
> >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org?
> >>>
> >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion?
> >>>
> >>>
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