[NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap Judge (TIC)

[J N Hiller]

Now were getting some where!
Jim Hiller

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Ron Van Putte
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 8:11 AM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap Judge (TIC)

Yes, I agree with the elimination of the autorotation/stall
requirement and describe the desired flight path, not how to achieve it.

Ron VP

On Oct 16, 2009, at 9:41 AM, James Oddino wrote:

> Ron, I agree completely with you and Jerry.  My point is we can get
> a similar airframe response at similar asymmetrical lift on the
> left side by using ailerons along with rudder and elevator.
> Autorotation refers to rolling induced by an unstable CL/alpha that
> occurs only on the right side.  There, as alpha increases lift
> decreases so the wing descends resulting in alpha increasing and so
> on.  On the rising wing, alpha is decreasing so lift is increasing
> so the wing keeps rising.  The result is a spontaneous, continuous
> roll.
>
> This is untrue on the left side but we can and do induce rotation
> with ailerons.  If we want to fix the rules we should probably get
> rid of the autorotation/stall requirement and describe the desired
> flight path, not how to achieve it.  Agree?
>
> Make sense?
>
> Jim
>
>
> On Oct 16, 2009, at 6:58 AM, Ron Van Putte wrote:
>
>> Jerry's point is that the airplane can't get to the portion of the
>> CL/alpha curve to the right, above the critical alpha.  Too many
>> Gs on the airplane at normal flying speed.
>>
>> Ron VP
>>
>> On Oct 16, 2009, at 12:36 AM, James Oddino wrote:
>>
>>> The way I see it, most of the folks think that the wing is
>>> stalled or it isn't.  This is not the case.  Stalled typically
>>> refers to the portion of the CL/alpha curve to the right, above
>>> the critical alpha.  The CL does not go to zero when alpha
>>> exceeds the critical 15 or so degrees but drops with a relatively
>>> low slope.  That means it is still providing lift.  It can also
>>> be at different values on each panel.  This is what Jerry was
>>> talking about when he referred to stalling the wing
>>> asymmetrically.  (See excerpt below).
>>>
>>> I submit we can create a similar asymmetrical Lift on the left
>>> side of the curve, below the critical angle and produce a SNAP
>>> ROLL with the application of ailerons.  This is probably not a
>>> true autorotation that would occur with rudder and elevator only
>>> if we were on the "stalled" side of the curve, but the resulting
>>> airframe response looks the same.
>>>
>>> I rest my case, Jim
>>>
>>> I am not an aeronautical engineer.  Where is Jim Alberico when we
>>> need him?
>>>
>>> On Oct 15, 2009, at 6:23 PM, Ron Van Putte wrote:
>>>
>>>> I was busy when this came in and didn't sit down to read it
>>>> until tonight.  I'm an aeronautical engineer and EVERYTHING
>>>> Jerry wrote made sense to me and I'm a picky engineer.  I hope
>>>> everyone was able to wade their way through it and understood
>>>> what Jerry wrote.  He used some technical stuff that may have
>>>> slowed some down, but it was presented in such a way that most R/
>>>> C aerobatic pilots should understand the logic.
>>>>
>>>> Well done Jerry.
>>>>
>>>> Ron Van Putte
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 14, 2009, at 5:12 AM, Budd Engineering wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> So what are we doing to make the plane present what appears to
>>>>> be a snap roll when we can't actually be stalling the wing
>>>>> asymmetrically to induce autorotation like many claim?
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
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