[NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
Ron Van Putte
vanputte at cox.net
Mon May 11 04:49:13 AKDT 2009
We all have maneuvers we don't like to perform, usually because we
haven't practiced them enough or in the right way to do them well.
However that's no excuse to say that the maneuver shouldn't be in the
schedule.
I remember doing three rolls longer ago than most of you have been
alive. I didn't know better then and my airplanes were always nose
heavy. That made for a lot of down elevator being required when the
airplane was inverted. I finally learned how to overcome this self-
imposed problem through practice.
Don't even ask me about how I overcame the problems with the three
outside loops from the top.
Ron
On May 10, 2009, at 10:57 PM, John Pavlick wrote:
> Nice. Not everyone flies ARF's you know. :)
>
> John Pavlick
> http://www.idseng.com
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Van Putte" <vanputte at cox.net>
> To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 11:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>
>
> Get better or crash?
>
> Ron
>
> On May 10, 2009, at 10:42 PM, John Pavlick wrote:
>
>> Ron,
>> I agree. That maneuver is fine for Masters class. The point I was
>> trying to make was that if Masters guys are challenged by a
>> maneuver like this, what do you think will happen to an
>> Intermediate pilot when faced with a similar situation?
>>
>> John Pavlick
>> http://www.idseng.com
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Van Putte" <vanputte at cox.net>
>> To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 7:09 PM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>
>>
>> That's what's called a "personal problem". I find that the Two of
>> Two 1/2 Rolls, Opposite is very difficult to keep in the box and,
>> using the logic I've sometimes seen here, it should be removed from
>> the Master class maneuver schedule. It won't and shouldn't.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>> On May 10, 2009, at 5:34 PM, Archie Stafford wrote:
>>
>>> John,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In that post George is referring to the 3 horizontal rolls that
>>> used to
>>> be in what is now Intermediate. It really wasn’t that hard to
>>> fit in the
>>> box as long as you started early. The problem that most people
>>> have is
>>> they wait way too long to start the rolling stuff.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Arch
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-
>>> discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John Pavlick
>>> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 3:18 PM
>>> To: General pattern discussion
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What schedule are we talking about? I thought it was the Masters
>>> schedule.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John Pavlick
>>> http://www.idseng.com
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>> From: George W.Kennie
>>>
>>> To: General pattern discussion
>>>
>>> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 2:18 PM
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Remember, the maneuver is performed after a previous box exit.
>>> So, you
>>> enter the box, have all day to set up for it, and you're only
>>> doing 1 &
>>> 1/2 rolls either side of center. I've seen guys use this much
>>> space
>>> doing the current 2 point with a significant hesitation.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Archie is right on the money. That's the reason I use the old, old
>>> Intermediate schedule to train newbies. If I can get 'em thru
>>> this thing,
>>> then the current schedules are duck soup for them. It's like
>>> practicing
>>> the P-09 and then going to a contest and flying Sportsman.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> G.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>> From: John Pavlick
>>>
>>> To: General pattern discussion
>>>
>>> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 10:18 PM
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Georgie,
>>>
>>> Did you ever see anyone REALLY grease that maneuver? I haven't.
>>> It ALWAYS
>>> looks rushed. And these are Masters pilots. Big difference
>>> between them
>>> and Intermediate pilots. The only way it would work is if both
>>> turnarounds (before and after the maneuver) were something like
>>> a stall
>>> turn or a half square loop. Anything else would be tough for an
>>> Intermediate pilot.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John Pavlick
>>> http://www.idseng.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>> From: George W.Kennie
>>>
>>> To: General pattern discussion
>>>
>>> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 9:21 PM
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Isn't it amazing that we have combination maneuvers like Two of Two
>>> folowed by a Slow Roll opposite all on one line, including
>>> entry and exit
>>> lines, and people still think that you can't get three
>>> consecutive rolls
>>> in the box.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Stymies me !
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Who else?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>> From: Glen Watson
>>>
>>> To: 'General pattern discussion'
>>>
>>> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:02 PM
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Chuck,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In the early nineties when I got started in pattern the Sportsman
>>> sequence now known as Intermediate had three rolls. I flew
>>> 2cycle then
>>> (Saphire, LA-1) and had no problem fitting the maneuver in the
>>> box as
>>> well as centering. I believe this built many early skill sets
>>> that have
>>> helped me in the long run over the years.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I’m of the opinion pattern sequences should present challenges
>>> to ones
>>> current skill set. Without a challenge why do pattern at all.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Glen
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-
>>> discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Hochhalter
>>> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 11:15 AM
>>> To: General pattern discussion
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Anyone notice how much airpace 3 rolls takes in FAI... I don’t
>>> think they
>>> lower class has the box management skills to fit 3 rolls into
>>> the box,
>>> let alone be ready to center them.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Chuck
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: ronlock at comcast.net
>>>
>>> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 9:25 PM
>>>
>>> To: General pattern discussion
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Re comments below-
>>> I believe part of reason the current Intermediate sequence has
>>> two rolls,
>>> and not three, is-
>>> Figuring two rolls are challenge and training enough for most
>>> intermediate pilots -
>>> And two is enough for judging- Particularly, if you see two going
>>> badly, not many of us
>>> want to see a third.
>>>
>>> Also below - having to move out of Sportsman after first year
>>> because of
>>> beating 4 other pilots -
>>> That is already fixed. The 2009 rule "..flier must move out of
>>> Sportsman class at the end of he calendar year of his/her second or
>>> subsequent year of participation if he/she places first or
>>> second and
>>> above at least 4 other fliers..."
>>>
>>> Ron Lockhart
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Ron Hansen" <rcpilot at wowway.com>
>>> To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2009 10:03:36 PM (GMT-0500) Auto-Detected
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>>
>>> I’ve been flying intermediate for about 3 years going on 4. The
>>> two
>>> rolls are still kicking my you know what. I can do one slow
>>> roll and one
>>> 4 pt roll but not two consecutive rolls. I’m certain that the
>>> average
>>> advance pilot would really have trouble with 3 rolls. I see a
>>> lot of
>>> intermediate, advanced and sometimes even masters pilots almost
>>> loose
>>> airplanes on the horizontal rolling maneuvers. They shouldn’t be
>>> underestimated.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree with Mark, lets make advancement at all levels a
>>> guideline. I
>>> had to move up from sportsman to intermediate after my first
>>> year in
>>> sportsman because I beat 4 other pilots. I was flying a Kaos
>>> and the
>>> other pilots were all flying their 1st contests with trainers.
>>> They had
>>> no chance. In the end I’m glade I moved up but at the time it
>>> made me
>>> real nervous. I was so determined to fly pattern that I
>>> decided to give
>>> it the old college try in intermediate.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I think Advance could use a few more maneuvers that exit inverted.
>>> Otherwise, I believe all the sequences are pretty good.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ron
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-
>>> discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Richard Lewis
>>> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 4:38 PM
>>> To: General pattern discussion
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There is a provision in the current rule set to accomodate these
>>> situations, see 8.1.2 of the competition regulations....
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Richard
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: "jeffghughes at comcast.net" <jeffghughes at comcast.net>
>>> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2009 3:30:24 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>>
>>> Bob,
>>>
>>> I understand completely, I moved up to advanced, then my
>>> daughter got
>>> sick and I've been to one contest in 4 years. My flying has
>>> regressed,
>>> and my confidence along with it.
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Mark Atwood" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
>>> To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2009 2:52:19 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>>
>>> I know you’re joking some Bob, but I think you’re actually a great
>>> example of someone that was able to fly a lot, and progressed
>>> nicely
>>> through the system, but then when you got to Masters…a time when
>>> you
>>> really need to practice even more to be competitive, your job
>>> suddenly
>>> changed, home life became more complex, and you’re lucky to fly 10
>>> practice flights a year outside of contests. Your experience
>>> and skill
>>> would allow you to be competitive in Advanced, without
>>> dominating and
>>> likely have a lot more fun being a spoiler to that crowd,
>>> rather than
>>> trying to fly masters without hardly even knowing the pattern.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You’re the perfect candidate for someone that should be able to
>>> choose
>>> where they fly (which pattern) and have the most enjoyment.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-
>>> discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Bob Kane
>>> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 2:40 PM
>>> To: General pattern discussion
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hey, I resemble that remark . . . . . . .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bob Kane
>>> getterflash at yahoo.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: "jeffghughes at comcast.net" <jeffghughes at comcast.net>
>>> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Cc: Don Ramsey <don.ramsey at suddenlink.net>
>>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2009 12:17:58 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>>
>>> This is all pretty interesting. From my perspective, I didn't
>>> really
>>> care who beat me when I was in intermediate or advanced. I just
>>> knew that
>>> I was seeing the skill level necessary to win. While it's nice
>>> to win a
>>> trophy in the lower classes, I understood I wasn't competing
>>> against the
>>> best pilots anyway. From what I've seen there is a huge
>>> variation of
>>> talent within a class anyway. I've seen Masters pilots fly that
>>> wouldn't
>>> win in advanced if they bumped back down (maybe not even in
>>> intermediate). People move up for all kinds of reasons
>>> unrelated to skill
>>> level. It's also interesting that we talk about using each
>>> class to
>>> improve our flying until we get to Masters, then it appears
>>> nobody wants
>>> to improve to FAI.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> Version: 8.5.285 / Virus Database: 270.12.21/2103 - Release Date:
>>> 05/07/09 18:05:00
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion
>>> mailing
>>> list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://
>>> lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>> signature database 4063 (20090508) __________
>>>
>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>
>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion
>>> mailing
>>> list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://
>>> lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter.
>>> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.
>>> SPAMfighter has removed 25185 of my spam emails to date.
>>> The Professional version does not have this message.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
More information about the NSRCA-discussion
mailing list