[NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System

Fri May 8 09:01:21 AKDT 2009

It was also a "sportsman" maneuver in pre-turnaround. Actually flown in 
both advanced and sportsman classes as were the 3 inside loops. I 
remember well learning to do 3 consecutive rolls long before my first 
contest. It taught me a lot about avoiding the panic "pull-up" when in 
trouble. Improved my building skills too.

John

verne at twmi.rr.com wrote:
> Jim,
> My point is that it was an Advanced class maneuver and is probably above the level we should expect at Intermediate. FWIW, I won a number of contests in Advanced back then because of that maneuver. Many Advanced contestants didn't do it very well, even at 100+ mph. They always set their roll rate too fast and couldn't keep up with elevator/rudder inputs. I set up a dual rate for that maneuver to slow down the roll rate which made it fairly simple. 
>
> My point, however, is that it's above most Intermediate pilots from my viewpoint in the judges chair.
>
> Verne
>
>
> ---- J N Hiller <jnhiller at earthlink.net> wrote: 
>   
>> Yes pre-turnaround, full throttle well over 100 MPH and 8-points would blow the box on both ends at about 100 M out. It takes a lot of skill to fly 3 loops or rolls consistently to an 8+ score which becomes more dependant on practice than learned basics. 
>> Jim Hiller
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of verne at twmi.rr.com
>> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 8:46 AM
>> To: General pattern discussion
>> Cc: Don Ramsey
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>
>> In the old pre-turnaround days, 3 rolls was an Advanced-class maneuver.
>>
>>
>> ---- Don Ramsey <don.ramsey at suddenlink.net> wrote:
>>     
>>> I disagree with Arch about the 3 rolls.  I think this is an aircraft killer.  It killed a lot planes when we did it.  Don't require maneuvers in the early patterns that put the aircraft at high risk.
>>>
>>> There are other maneuvers that teach the skills to do the slow roll and point rolls with little risk to the plane.  To do the 3 rolls properly takes a lot of real estate and requires other skills that the Sportsman pilot is not equipped to handle.  When it was in the sequence people did get through it but very few performed it well and I thought it did not teach much toward advancement of the skills required of rolls in the other patterns.  Slow rolls and point rolls are very easy compared to the skills required to do 3 rolls.
>>>
>>> Don
>>>
>>>
>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Archie Stafford
>>> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 7:59 AM
>>> To: 'General pattern discussion'
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>>
>>> Richard,
>>>
>>> So your answer about the 3 rolls is lets not put it in, because it is hard?  It was a maneuver that was done for years with no problems, but it did make you learn to fly through the rolls. 
>>>
>>> The vertical upline doesn't really teach much.  Try it with a .40 size sport plane.  You are right, it doesn't have to be a certain height. But you better be starting high as the next maneuver is a split S.  Those last 5 maneuvers don't really teach anything.  Sportsman should be about introducing people to pattern and allowing the guy with the .40 sport plane a chance to compete. 
>>>
>>> Arch
>>>
>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Richard Lewis
>>> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 6:47 AM
>>> To: General pattern discussion
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>>
>>> Arch,
>>>
>>> The vertical upline is a great teaching maneuver for sportsman and requires no more power than a stall turn.  There is NO criteria for the length of this line, and a box entry just before it.  I tell every sportsman pilot I meet, no matter what they are flying this: Enter the box as high as necessary to do as short an upline as possible or that the plane is capable of and setup for the split-S.  Overall, it's a quick and easy lesson in airspace management.  The radii are also not specified, just need to be equal.  So often we see sportsman approach center and pull a radically tight radius and expose nasty attitude changes.  This ia another opportunity to teach.  It is also an easy, low risk lesson in aircraft attitude and trimming, as transitioning through a radius from horizontal to vertical directly in front of you requires decent trimming (right thrust, etc...) and also a degree of confidence that the wings are level.  Also a opportunity to teach.
>>>
>>> Put three rolls in intermediate and watch the intermediate pilots drop like flies........
>>>
>>> Richard
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   _____ 
>>>
>>> From: Archie Stafford <astafford at swtexas.net>
>>> To: jpavlick at idseng.com; General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 7, 2009 7:42:50 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>> I think one thing we need to really get back to basics on is designing the schedules based around the skills necessary to be able to move on to the next sequence.  I think we have picked a bunch of maneuvers, but are missing out on what skills are needed.  The current sportsman sequence is way too long and requires a lot more power than a beginner sequence should.  There was a time when you could fly a .40 sport plane and be competitive, but those days are gone.  What is gained by the vertical upline on center maneuver?  You have to have a plane with a reasonable thrust to weight ratio as the next maneuver is a split s.  There are 2 half reverse Cuban eights.  You could conceivably get rid of the last 5 maneuvers and not be missing anything.  You would also allow a true .40 size first low wing plane a chance at being competitive.  I understand the argument that theoretically those planes are already competitive, but in reality they aren't. 
>>>
>>> The biggest thing that people in sportsman need is the basic understanding of a contest and the ability to learn to fly a straight line and maintain altitude.  Then as you progress you can add other maneuvers. 
>>>
>>> Two maneuvers I think need to be put back into intermediate are the 3 horizontal rolls...3, not 2.  With 3 you have to learn to fly through them.  Also, the double stall turn was a great maneuver for that sequence.  Straight inverted flight is another important element that gets missed, even with the inverted exit.   As you progress into Advanced maybe introduce snaps and a spin, with a couple more inverted exits to actually prepare someone for Masters. 
>>>
>>> I think if the sequences get viewed as building blocks, then the maneuvers needed will take care of themselves. 
>>>
>>> Just my .02,
>>>
>>> Arch
>>>
>>>
>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John Pavlick
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 3:35 PM
>>> To: General pattern discussion
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>>
>>>
>>> Bill,
>>>  What district are you in? Maybe Ziggy and I will take a road trip this summer. That could make things interesting for you guys. I'm staying in Advanced as long as I can or at least until I lose my day job. :)
>>>
>>> John Pavlick
>>>
>>> --- On Thu, 5/7/09, Bill Glaze <billglaze at bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>> From: Bill Glaze <billglaze at bellsouth.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>> To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Date: Thursday, May 7, 2009, 7:36 PM
>>> Joe:
>>>  Advanced last weekend in Winston = 0 contestants.  A couple of weeks ago in Green Sea: Advanced = 1 contestant.  I don't believe that we've had more than 4 contestants in Advanced in a single contest for 2 years--maybe more.  I haven't thought much about just why that might be, but right now, it's a very unpopular class.  I concur that most of the dropouts seem to be either from the Advanced class, or, from those who are forced into the Advanced class.  No matter how/why they're forced to move up, it's just the way it is right now.
>>> Bill Glaze
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Joe Lachowski <mailto:jlachow at hotmail.com> 
>>> To: NSRCA Discussion List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 11:32 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>>
>>> I'm for getting rid of advancement in the Advanced class for one. This is the class a number flyers who stick around seem to hit their skill level wall and disappear.  It also appears to be the smallest class attended at local contests these days.  At least in D1 it is.
>>>
>>> I'd also like to see the option of being able to move back after one year in the next higher class. This would be a allowed one time only.
>>>
>>>  To make frequent sequence change doable, instead of having to come up with new ones every 4 years or so, maybe we should just come up with a good set of say 4 for each class. You can rotate through them every 2 years and start from the first one all over again after they've cycled through. This could easily be done for Intermediate and Advanced. Probably even Masters. After about 8 years the pool of flyers for the most part will have changed in each class anyway. Establishing these sequences will probably take a well thought process of about two years by some dedicated people willing to take it on. You could also just change a handful of maneuvers in these sequences after the 8 year cycle to keep things a little fresh for those that are still flying a particular class after the 8 year cycle. This is a lot of work up front but in teh long run it is easier.
>>>
>>>  As far as Sportsman goes, you just need one good sequence that teaches the basic skills to get you to Intermediate. The one we have now is pretty close if not good enough.
>>>
>>> Just some ideas.
>>>
>>>
>>>   _____ 
>>>
>>> From: anthonyr105 at hotmail.com
>>> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 10:48:08 -0400
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>>
>>> Good idea Earl. I think peer pressure alone will suffice but if we want an organize system this has merit.
>>>  Do we realize if we allow the other classes to become destinations then the sequences should change more frequently.
>>>
>>> Anthony
>>>
>>>
>>>   _____ 
>>>
>>> From: ejhaury at comcast.net
>>> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 09:24:18 -0500
>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>> In the discussion regarding the Masters sequence / length a few competitors mentioned that increasing the difficulty would cause them to stop competing. Folks, this needs to be addressed! We can't tolerate a system where folks are forced to a level where they can't enjoy pattern and/or chose to quit.
>>>
>>> There are generally two views of the current system. One is that it is cast in stone and needed to force the "trophy hound" to move to the proper class. The other is that peer pressure alone will result in proper classification. I think that there's a third possibility, some folks prematurely move to a higher class for the "prestige" of that class. There's likely reality / unreality to each view which supports that some process is needed. While there have been some changes to smooth the advancement process, nothing has changed for a person who finds themselves in a class that exceeds their skills. I know - there's a process to petition for dropping to a lower class, but it's intended for hardship cases rather than being uncompetitive.
>>>
>>> OK - going back to the first paragraph - how might we fix this? My suggestion is to change the rules so that folks who gather points in the lower percentile of a class for X number of events (or rounds, or time span?) have the option to stay where they are, or move back a class. The current advancement rules would be applied to folks in the upper percentile. It seems that this would provide an option for the casual competitor to seek a comfort level and retain a reasonable advancement process for the serious competitor. Of course there are administrative issues, probably best to simply use data within each district, as most already track points for district championships. A district based data set would also best weight performance within one's local peer group.
>>>
>>> Just my thoughts - how about the group discussing this some.
>>>
>>> Earl
>>>
>>>
>>>   _____ 
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