[NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions

Mon Mar 2 12:49:53 AKST 2009

Jim,

I think I'm finally catching up to your thought process. Boy, you must be frustrated !

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: J N Hiller 
  To: General pattern discussion 
  Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:28 PM
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions

  That's the issue I was trying to open. "Flying Speed" = What? Judge perception I guess! Call it like you see it until it's more defined or dropped. One could always ask for a clarification during the pilot's and or judge's meeting.

  Jim

  -----Original Message-----
  From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie
  Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:14 PM
  To: General pattern discussion
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions

  Jim,

  I finally see the light. I've been too focused on the line in the PPP which is incomplete.  Thinking that the word "stop" was the crucial point it now becomes clear that the emphasis is really meant to be focused on the word "or", and understanding that makes it clear that,like Chris says, after the 10 meter roll it's fini !   

  But my head is still fighting me. What if the aircraft at no time slows below flying speed, comes in and makes a LZ touchdown and proceeds to roll for 100 feet without becoming airborne or flipping over? Clarification? 

  Jim? Chris? anybody?

  G.

  ----- Original Message ----- 

  From: J N Hiller 

  To: General pattern discussion 

  Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:31 PM

  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions

  Hi George and Bill. (More have posted since I started this but here it is anyway)

  Here is the first paragraph from AMA RCA-25. Probably not changed since I saved it on 2-3-09.

  Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point.

  Looks like there is some discrepancy here. We will probably here more on this.

  "slowed below flying speed AND rolled 10 meters" could be interpreted as a requirement that the speed be below flying speed (subjective) within 10 meters. Thirty years ago flying speed probably meant something but most modern pattern airplanes are capable of flying speed without ground speed if the nose is high enough, unless there is a documented distinction between flying and hovering. Is landing with power greater than idle allowed? How much power can be used to 'drag it in nose high? Most can roll the tail wheel on before the mains, which commits the airplane to "Below Flying Speed", at least without a bump / bounce.

  "10 meters OR comes to a stop" would indicate that the landing is complete after the 10-meter roll out without having to come to a stop. If a stop were required I would expect "AND" to be used.

  I have no opinion on this. I just try to get a decent landing near the center and accept whatever score is given. You should see some of the landings at a soaring contest where the pilot if focused on maximum landing score.

  Got to go, be back later.

  Jim 

  -----Original Message-----
  From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie
  Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 8:15 AM
  To: General pattern discussion
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions

  Bill,

  This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. 

  In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters".   I think the crucial word is STOP !   What does this mean to proper execution?   How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet?  A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout.

  If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10.  Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer.

  And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. 

  Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received.

  G.

  ----- Original Message ----- 

  From: billglaze 

  To: nsrca- discussion 

  Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM

  Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions

  At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion:

  I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time.

  On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero?  I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane."  It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea.  

  Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed?  I've been called for doing so once.

  Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S:  A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude.  Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!)<G>  I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also.  Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list!

  thanks

  Bill Glaze

  NSRCA 2388

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