From jonlowe at aol.com Sun Mar 1 03:25:06 2009 From: jonlowe at aol.com (Jon Lowe) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 12:25:06 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted on the NSRCA site In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CB687FDC23019B-17CC-3F64@FWM-D39.sysops.aol.com> Rick, I want to thank you for posting these. I read thru the Powerpoint presentation on the Masters sequence last nite, and picked up on two key points that I had completely missed. I hadn't thought about pulling early on the start of the hourglass to maintain geometry, and I had completely missed the fact that there is no hesitation in the two, two of two rolls opposite. I had been practicing both manuevers incorrectly. In fact, I would have sworn there WAS a hesitation in the rolls before I read your presentation and rechecked the rules. Now if the weather would break so I could get more practice... Job well done. Jon Lowe -----Original Message----- From: richard wallace To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 6:49 am Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted on the NSRCA site The current Masters seequence is posted on the NSCA website (along with all the other current sequences)? at http://nsrca.us/judginghome.html ? Click the desired AMA class link in the middle of the page to open or save the presentation. --? Each file is 2MB or a little less -dodwnload may take a few seconds ?-- Might as well save it on your local computer for later reference...! ? These presentations try to capture the rulebook downgrades and some helpful tips but, as always, the current rulebook is the authority! ? Links to FAI P09 and F09 sequences and call cards are in the listing to the right of the page. ? ? Enjoy--! _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From vicenterc at comcast.net Sun Mar 1 04:08:40 2009 From: vicenterc at comcast.net (Vicente "Vince" Bortone) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 13:08:40 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted on the NSRCA site In-Reply-To: <8CB687FDC23019B-17CC-3F64@FWM-D39.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1343471723.665591235912918198.JavaMail.root@sz0152a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> By the way, I don't know what I am doing wrong (besides not been able to practice) in the hourly glass.? My problem is that it appears very difficult to make the upper portion equal to the lower portion.? I run out of space coming down.? Have you guys notice that?? I think is apparent to the pilot but judges are going to have the same problem because the upper portion is too high compared to the lower portion.??? Vicente "Vince" Bortone ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Lowe" < jonlowe @ aol .com> To: nsrca -discussion at lists. nsrca .org Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2009 6:24:53 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central Subject: Re: [ NSRCA -discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted on the NSRCA site Rick, I want to thank you for posting these. ?I read thru the Powerpoint presentation on the Masters sequence last nite , and picked up on two key points that I had completely missed. ?I hadn't thought about pulling early on the start of the hourglass to maintain geometry, ?and I had completely missed the fact that there is no hesitation in the two, two of two rolls opposite. ?I had been practicing both manuevers incorrectly. ?In fact, I would have sworn there WAS a hesitation in the rolls before I read your presentation and rechecked the rules. ?Now if the weather would break so I could get more practice... Job well done. Jon Lowe -----Original Message----- From: richard wallace To: General pattern discussion < nsrca -discussion at lists. nsrca .org> Sent: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 6:49 am Subject: [ NSRCA -discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted on the NSRCA site The current Masters seequence is posted on the NSCA website (along with all the other current sequences)? at http :// nsrca .us/ judginghome . html ? Click the desired AMA class link in the middle of the page to open or save the presentation. --? Each file is 2MB or a little less -dodwnload may take a few seconds ?-- Might as well save it on your local computer for later reference...! ? These presentations try to capture the rulebook downgrades and some helpful tips but, as always, the current rulebook is the authority! ? Links to FAI P09 and F09 sequences and call cards are in the listing to the right of the page. ? ? Enjoy--! _______________________________________________ NSRCA -discussion mailing list NSRCA -discussion at lists. nsrca .org http ://lists. nsrca .org/mailman/ listinfo / nsrca -discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA -discussion mailing list NSRCA -discussion at lists. nsrca .org http ://lists. nsrca .org/mailman/ listinfo / nsrca -discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonlowe at aol.com Sun Mar 1 05:37:45 2009 From: jonlowe at aol.com (Jon Lowe) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 14:37:45 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted on the NSRCA site In-Reply-To: <1343471723.665591235912918198.JavaMail.root@sz0152a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <8CB6892686328D7-17CC-423F@FWM-D39.sysops.aol.com> It is all perspective. The top should appear smaller than the bottom, thus you pull earlier that you'd think you would on the top segment, giving you more time on the down line. I remember watching when the FAI pilots were flying it. They flew the maneuver smaller than you'd think to keep the proportions closer together in apparent size. Jon Lowe -----Original Message----- From: Vicente "Vince" Bortone To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 7:08 am Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted on the NSRCA site By the way, I don't know what I am doing wrong (besides not been able to practice) in the hourly glass.? My problem is that it appears very difficult to make the upper portion equal to the lower portion.? I run out of space coming down.? Have you guys notice that?? I think is apparent to the pilot but judges are going to have the same problem because the upper portion is too high compared to the lower portion.??? ? Vicente "Vince" Bortone ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Lowe" To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2009 6:24:53 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted on the NSRCA site Rick, I wa nt to thank you for posting these. ?I read thru the Powerpoint presentation on the Masters sequence last nite, and picked up on two key points that I had completely missed. ?I hadn't thought about pulling early on the start of the hourglass to maintain geometry, ?and I had completely missed the fact that there is no hesitation in the two, two of two rolls opposite. ?I had been practicing both manuevers incorrectly. ?In fact, I would have sworn there WAS a hesitation in the rolls before I read your presentation and rechecked the rules. ?Now if the weather would break so I could get more practice... Job well done. Jon Lowe -----Original Message----- From: richard wallace To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 6:49 am Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted on the NSRCA site The current Masters seequence is posted on the NSCA website (along with all the other current sequences)? at http://nsrca.us/judginghome.html ? Click the desired AMA class link in the middle of the page to open or save the presentation. --? Each file is 2MB or a little less -dodwnload may take a few seconds ?-- Might as well save it on your local computer for later reference...! ? These presentations try to capture20the rulebook downgrades and some helpful tips but, as always, the current rulebook is the authority! ? Links to FAI P09 and F09 sequences and call cards are in the listing to the right of the page. ? ? Enjoy--! _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From rickwallace45 at gmail.com Sun Mar 1 08:14:35 2009 From: rickwallace45 at gmail.com (richard wallace) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 17:14:35 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted on the NSRCA site In-Reply-To: <8CB687FDC23019B-17CC-3F64@FWM-D39.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CB687FDC23019B-17CC-3F64@FWM-D39.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Thanks, all, for the feedback on these presentations - now if I could only FLY the Masters 09 sequence... ! BURN FUEL! (ok... or electrons, as appropriate...) On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 7:24 AM, Jon Lowe wrote: > Rick, > I want to thank you for posting these. I read thru the Powerpoint > presentation on the Masters sequence last nite, and picked up on two key > points that I had completely missed. I hadn't thought about pulling early > on the start of the hourglass to maintain geometry, and I had completely > missed the fact that there is no hesitation in the two, two of two rolls > opposite. I had been practicing both manuevers incorrectly. In fact, I > would have sworn there WAS a hesitation in the rolls before I read your > presentation and rechecked the rules. Now if the weather would break so I > could get more practice... > > Job well done. > > > Jon Lowe > > > -----Original Message----- > From: richard wallace > To: General pattern discussion > Sent: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 6:49 am > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted on > the NSRCA site > > > > > > > > > > > The current Masters seequence is posted on the NSCA website (along with > all the other current sequences) at > > > http://nsrca.us/judginghome.html > > > > > > Click the desired AMA class link in the middle of the page to open or save > the presentation. > > > -- Each file is 2MB or a little less -dodwnload may take a few seconds > > > -- Might as well save it on your local computer for later reference...! > > > > > > These presentations try to capture the rulebook downgrades and some helpful > tips but, as always, the current rulebook is the authority! > > > > > > Links to FAI P09 and F09 sequences and call cards are in the listing to the > right of the page. > > > > > > > > > Enjoy--! > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schale at optonline.net Sun Mar 1 08:18:58 2009 From: schale at optonline.net (Stuart Chale) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 17:18:58 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted on the NSRCA site In-Reply-To: References: <8CB687FDC23019B-17CC-3F64@FWM-D39.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <49AAC37D.2090006@optonline.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geobet4 at verizon.net Sun Mar 1 08:47:17 2009 From: geobet4 at verizon.net (George W.Kennie) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 17:47:17 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site References: <8CB687FDC23019B-17CC-3F64@FWM-D39.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Jon, You've been doing it correctly. That's a list of downgrades. If there's no hesitation, it's a downgrade. ----- Original Message ----- From: richard wallace To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 12:14 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Thanks, all, for the feedback on these presentations - now if I could only FLY the Masters 09 sequence... ! BURN FUEL! (ok... or electrons, as appropriate...) On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 7:24 AM, Jon Lowe wrote: Rick, I want to thank you for posting these. I read thru the Powerpoint presentation on the Masters sequence last nite, and picked up on two key points that I had completely missed. I hadn't thought about pulling early on the start of the hourglass to maintain geometry, and I had completely missed the fact that there is no hesitation in the two, two of two rolls opposite. I had been practicing both manuevers incorrectly. In fact, I would have sworn there WAS a hesitation in the rolls before I read your presentation and rechecked the rules. Now if the weather would break so I could get more practice... Job well done. Jon Lowe -----Original Message----- From: richard wallace To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 6:49 am Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted on the NSRCA site The current Masters seequence is posted on the NSCA website (along with all the other current sequences) at http://nsrca.us/judginghome.html Click the desired AMA class link in the middle of the page to open or save the presentation. -- Each file is 2MB or a little less -dodwnload may take a few seconds -- Might as well save it on your local computer for later reference...! These presentations try to capture the rulebook downgrades and some helpful tips but, as always, the current rulebook is the authority! Links to FAI P09 and F09 sequences and call cards are in the listing to the right of the page. Enjoy--! _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnhiller at earthlink.net Sun Mar 1 08:48:41 2009 From: jnhiller at earthlink.net (J N Hiller) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 17:48:41 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted on the NSRCA site In-Reply-To: <1343471723.665591235912918198.JavaMail.root@sz0152a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: I had the same problem when I started flying it and found that the mid entry needed to be higher. I needed to increase size of the maneuvering area (base to top line distance) 20 - 25% from what was needed for advanced. The sequence is less tolerant of being flown close in or small. Increasing the maneuvering area slowed the rhythm and made more room available for several tight or rushed maneuver elements. Jim Hiller -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Vicente "Vince" Bortone Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 5:09 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted on the NSRCA site By the way, I don't know what I am doing wrong (besides not been able to practice) in the hourly glass. My problem is that it appears very difficult to make the upper portion equal to the lower portion. I run out of space coming down. Have you guys notice that? I think is apparent to the pilot but judges are going to have the same problem because the upper portion is too high compared to the lower portion. Vicente "Vince" Bortone ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Lowe" To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2009 6:24:53 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted on the NSRCA site Rick, I want to thank you for posting these. I read thru the Powerpoint presentation on the Masters sequence last nite, and picked up on two key points that I had completely missed. I hadn't thought about pulling early on the start of the hourglass to maintain geometry, and I had completely missed the fact that there is no hesitation in the two, two of two rolls opposite. I had been practicing both manuevers incorrectly. In fact, I would have sworn there WAS a hesitation in the rolls before I read your presentation and rechecked the rules. Now if the weather would break so I could get more practice... Job well done. Jon Lowe -----Original Message----- From: richard wallace To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 6:49 am Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted on the NSRCA site The current Masters seequence is posted on the NSCA website (along with all the other current sequences) at http://nsrca.us/judginghome.html Click the desired AMA class link in the middle of the page to open or save the presentation. -- Each file is 2MB or a little less -dodwnload may take a few seconds -- Might as well save it on your local computer for later reference...! These presentations try to capture the rulebook downgrades and some helpful tips but, as always, the current rulebook is the authority! Links to FAI P09 and F09 sequences and call cards are in the listing to the right of the page. Enjoy--! _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnhiller at earthlink.net Sun Mar 1 09:15:43 2009 From: jnhiller at earthlink.net (J N Hiller) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 18:15:43 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: George now you have me confused. I understood that there was to be NO hesitation between the two 2/2 rolls reversed. A noticeable hesitation would warrant a downgrade. PPT page 18 and RCA-33 agree on this. Jim Hiller -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 9:47 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Jon, You've been doing it correctly. That's a list of downgrades. If there's no hesitation, it's a downgrade. ----- Original Message ----- From: richard wallace To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 12:14 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Thanks, all, for the feedback on these presentations - now if I could only FLY the Masters 09 sequence... ! BURN FUEL! (ok... or electrons, as appropriate...) On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 7:24 AM, Jon Lowe < jonlowe at aol.com > wrote: Rick, I want to thank you for posting these. I read thru the Powerpoint presentation on the Masters sequence last nite, and picked up on two key points that I had completely missed. I hadn't thought about pulling early on the start of the hourglass to maintain geometry, and I had completely missed the fact that there is no hesitation in the two, two of two rolls opposite. I had been practicing both manuevers incorrectly. In fact, I would have sworn there WAS a hesitation in the rolls before I read your presentation and rechecked the rules. Now if the weather would break so I could get more practice... Job well done. Jon Lowe -----Original Message----- From: richard wallace < rickwallace45 at gmail.com > To: General pattern discussion < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Sent: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 6:49 am Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted on the NSRCA site The current Masters seequence is posted on the NSCA website (along with all the other current sequences) at http://nsrca.us/judginghome.html Click the desired AMA class link in the middle of the page to open or save the presentation. -- Each file is 2MB or a little less -dodwnload may take a few seconds -- Might as well save it on your local computer for later reference...! These presentations try to capture the rulebook downgrades and some helpful tips but, as always, the current rulebook is the authority! Links to FAI P09 and F09 sequences and call cards are in the listing to the right of the page. Enjoy--! _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter . We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trexlesh at msn.com Sun Mar 1 10:28:01 2009 From: trexlesh at msn.com (Rex) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 19:28:01 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You are correct Jim... there is no hesitation between the two seperate 2/2. Each 2/2 has a hesitation after the half roll to inverted. So, to put it as a description of requirements, you'd have "half roll", hesitation, "half roll", NO HESITATION, "half roll", hesitation, "half roll".... Rex From: jnhiller at earthlink.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 10:15:39 -0800 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site George now you have me confused. I understood that there was to be NO hesitation between the two 2/2 rolls reversed. A noticeable hesitation would warrant a downgrade. PPT page 18 and RCA-33 agree on this. Jim Hiller -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 9:47 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Jon, You've been doing it correctly. That's a list of downgrades. If there's no hesitation, it's a downgrade. ----- Original Message ----- From: richard wallace To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 12:14 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Thanks, all, for the feedback on these presentations - now if I could only FLY the Masters 09 sequence... ! BURN FUEL! (ok... or electrons, as appropriate...) On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 7:24 AM, Jon Lowe wrote: Rick, I want to thank you for posting these. I read thru the Powerpoint presentation on the Masters sequence last nite, and picked up on two key points that I had completely missed. I hadn't thought about pulling early on the start of the hourglass to maintain geometry, and I had completely missed the fact that there is no hesitation in the two, two of two rolls opposite. I had been practicing both manuevers incorrectly. In fact, I would have sworn there WAS a hesitation in the rolls before I read your presentation and rechecked the rules. Now if the weather would break so I could get more practice... Job well done. Jon Lowe -----Original Message----- From: richard wallace To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 6:49 am Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted on the NSRCA site The current Masters seequence is posted on the NSCA website (along with all the other current sequences) at http://nsrca.us/judginghome.html Click the desired AMA class link in the middle of the page to open or save the presentation. -- Each file is 2MB or a little less -dodwnload may take a few seconds -- Might as well save it on your local computer for later reference...! These presentations try to capture the rulebook downgrades and some helpful tips but, as always, the current rulebook is the authority! Links to FAI P09 and F09 sequences and call cards are in the listing to the right of the page. Enjoy--! _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnhiller at earthlink.net Sun Mar 1 10:51:08 2009 From: jnhiller at earthlink.net (J N Hiller) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 19:51:08 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams areposted onthe NSRCA site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Rex. I find it difficult to fly this way. Immediately reversing the roll direction and blending opposite rudder simultaneously gets my thumb tangled. No time for the old processor to organize and direct the activities. I guess I am going to have to start practicing more seriously. Crap, staying in advanced would be easier. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Rex Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 11:28 AM To: NSRCA-discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams areposted onthe NSRCA site You are correct Jim... there is no hesitation between the two seperate 2/2. Each 2/2 has a hesitation after the half roll to inverted. So, to put it as a description of requirements, you'd have "half roll", hesitation, "half roll", NO HESITATION, "half roll", hesitation, "half roll".... Rex _____ From: jnhiller at earthlink.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 10:15:39 -0800 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site George now you have me confused. I understood that there was to be NO hesitation between the two 2/2 rolls reversed. A noticeable hesitation would warrant a downgrade. PPT page 18 and RCA-33 agree on this. Jim Hiller -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 9:47 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Jon, You've been doing it correctly. That's a list of downgrades. If there's no hesitation, it's a downgrade. ----- Original Message ----- From: richard wallace To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 12:14 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Thanks, all, for the feedback on these presentations - now if I could only FLY the Masters 09 sequence... ! BURN FUEL! (ok... or electrons, as appropriate...) On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 7:24 AM, Jon Lowe < jonlowe at aol.com > wrote: Rick, I want to thank you for posting these. I read thru the Powerpoint presentation on the Masters sequence last nite, and picked up on two key points that I had completely missed. I hadn't thought about pulling early on the start of the hourglass to maintain geometry, and I had completely missed the fact that there is no hesitation in the two, two of two rolls opposite. I had been practicing both manuevers incorrectly. In fact, I would have sworn there WAS a hesitation in the rolls before I read your presentation and rechecked the rules. Now if the weather would break so I could get more practice... Job well done. Jon Lowe -----Original Message----- From: richard wallace < rickwallace45 at gmail.com > To: General pattern discussion < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Sent: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 6:49 am Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted on the NSRCA site The current Masters seequence is posted on the NSCA website (along with all the other current sequences) at http://nsrca.us/judginghome.html Click the desired AMA class link in the middle of the page to open or save the presentation. -- Each file is 2MB or a little less -dodwnload may take a few seconds -- Might as well save it on your local computer for later reference...! These presentations try to capture the rulebook downgrades and some helpful tips but, as always, the current rulebook is the authority! Links to FAI P09 and F09 sequences and call cards are in the listing to the right of the page. Enjoy--! _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter . We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trexlesh at msn.com Sun Mar 1 11:08:08 2009 From: trexlesh at msn.com (Rex) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 20:08:08 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams areposted onthe NSRCA site In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If it was easy, everyone would be doing it, Jim! lol The more fuel you burn, the easier it becomes. I have this little saying that automatically goes off in my head whenever I roll from inverted.... "same same" From: jnhiller at earthlink.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 11:51:04 -0800 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams areposted onthe NSRCA site Thanks Rex. I find it difficult to fly this way. Immediately reversing the roll direction and blending opposite rudder simultaneously gets my thumb tangled. No time for the old processor to organize and direct the activities. I guess I am going to have to start practicing more seriously. Crap, staying in advanced would be easier. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Rex Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 11:28 AM To: NSRCA-discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams areposted onthe NSRCA site You are correct Jim... there is no hesitation between the two seperate 2/2. Each 2/2 has a hesitation after the half roll to inverted. So, to put it as a description of requirements, you'd have "half roll", hesitation, "half roll", NO HESITATION, "half roll", hesitation, "half roll".... Rex From: jnhiller at earthlink.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 10:15:39 -0800 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site George now you have me confused. I understood that there was to be NO hesitation between the two 2/2 rolls reversed. A noticeable hesitation would warrant a downgrade. PPT page 18 and RCA-33 agree on this. Jim Hiller -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 9:47 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Jon, You've been doing it correctly. That's a list of downgrades. If there's no hesitation, it's a downgrade. ----- Original Message ----- From: richard wallace To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 12:14 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Thanks, all, for the feedback on these presentations - now if I could only FLY the Masters 09 sequence... ! BURN FUEL! (ok... or electrons, as appropriate...) On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 7:24 AM, Jon Lowe wrote: Rick, I want to thank you for posting these. I read thru the Powerpoint presentation on the Masters sequence last nite, and picked up on two key points that I had completely missed. I hadn't thought about pulling early on the start of the hourglass to maintain geometry, and I had completely missed the fact that there is no hesitation in the two, two of two rolls opposite. I had been practicing both manuevers incorrectly. In fact, I would have sworn there WAS a hesitation in the rolls before I read your presentation and rechecked the rules. Now if the weather would break so I could get more practice... Job well done. Jon Lowe -----Original Message----- From: richard wallace To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 6:49 am Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted on the NSRCA site The current Masters seequence is posted on the NSCA website (along with all the other current sequences) at http://nsrca.us/judginghome.html Click the desired AMA class link in the middle of the page to open or save the presentation. -- Each file is 2MB or a little less -dodwnload may take a few seconds -- Might as well save it on your local computer for later reference...! These presentations try to capture the rulebook downgrades and some helpful tips but, as always, the current rulebook is the authority! Links to FAI P09 and F09 sequences and call cards are in the listing to the right of the page. Enjoy--! _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gene.maurice at sgmservice.com Sun Mar 1 11:24:37 2009 From: gene.maurice at sgmservice.com (Gene Maurice) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 20:24:37 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000601c99aab$bfa13cb0$3ee3b610$@maurice@sgmservice.com> Don't you have to stop the plane to show the second point (2 of 2) and then reverse the roll direction (Reversed)? Doesn't that "stop" create an inherent hesitation (Per Webster: to delay momentarily : pause )? If there is no delay have you presented a point and therefore really performed a two point roll? Gene Maurice Plano, TX AMA 3408 NSRCA 877 PACSS.sgmservice.com gene.maurice at sgmservice.com From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Rex Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 1:28 PM To: NSRCA-discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site You are correct Jim... there is no hesitation between the two seperate 2/2. Each 2/2 has a hesitation after the half roll to inverted. So, to put it as a description of requirements, you'd have "half roll", hesitation, "half roll", NO HESITATION, "half roll", hesitation, "half roll".... Rex _____ From: jnhiller at earthlink.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 10:15:39 -0800 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site George now you have me confused. I understood that there was to be NO hesitation between the two 2/2 rolls reversed. A noticeable hesitation would warrant a downgrade. PPT page 18 and RCA-33 agree on this. Jim Hiller -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 9:47 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Jon, You've been doing it correctly. That's a list of downgrades. If there's no hesitation, it's a downgrade. ----- Original Message ----- From: richard wallace To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 12:14 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Thanks, all, for the feedback on these presentations - now if I could only FLY the Masters 09 sequence... ! BURN FUEL! (ok.... or electrons, as appropriate...) On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 7:24 AM, Jon Lowe wrote: Rick, I want to thank you for posting these. I read thru the Powerpoint presentation on the Masters sequence last nite, and picked up on two key points that I had completely missed. I hadn't thought about pulling early on the start of the hourglass to maintain geometry, and I had completely missed the fact that there is no hesitation in the two, two of two rolls opposite. I had been practicing both manuevers incorrectly.. In fact, I would have sworn there WAS a hesitation in the rolls before I read your presentation and rechecked the rules. Now if the weather would break so I could get more practice... Job well done. Jon Lowe -----Original Message----- From: richard wallace To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 6:49 am Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted on the NSRCA site The current Masters seequence is posted on the NSCA website (along with all the other current sequences) at http://nsrca.us/judginghome..html Click the desired AMA class link in the middle of the page to open or save the presentation. -- Each file is 2MB or a little less -dodwnload may take a few seconds -- Might as well save it on your local computer for later reference...! These presentations try to capture the rulebook downgrades and some helpful tips but, as always, the current rulebook is the authority! Links to FAI P09 and F09 sequences and call cards are in the listing to the right of the page. Enjoy--! _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter . We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trexlesh at msn.com Sun Mar 1 11:52:09 2009 From: trexlesh at msn.com (Rex) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 20:52:09 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site In-Reply-To: <000601c99aab$bfa13cb0$3ee3b610$@maurice@sgmservice.com> References: <000601c99aab$bfa13cb0$3ee3b610$@maurice@sgmservice.com> Message-ID: Hi Gene This exact thing was brought up last season about the "three opposite rolls" in FAI. I believe the term "no perceiveable" hesitation between changing directions was used to cover that.... LOL I guess that means you better hit the point before you move the stick the other way! My guess is that if you are within a couple degrees of the point, no one could see that anyway. You are immediately changing roll direction, and the time spent at the point of change is so short, you'd have to be somewhere around five degrees off before it was actually seen as being "off". The slower the roll, the easier it is to see wing position in real time. If you are rolling in slow roll fashion, the judge could easily see if wing position is off. I guess this is all splitting hairs, because if you reverse a roll at any time, the wing has to stop rotation before it goes the other way, hence a hesitation.... This could drive a guy nuts.... But in my case, who could tell?! Rex From: gene.maurice at sgmservice.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 14:24:39 -0600 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Don?t you have to stop the plane to show the second point (2 of 2) and then reverse the roll direction (Reversed)? Doesn?t that ?stop? create an inherent hesitation (Per Webster: to delay momentarily : pause )? If there is no delay have you presented a point and therefore really performed a two point roll? Gene Maurice Plano, TX AMA 3408 NSRCA 877 PACSS.sgmservice.com gene.maurice at sgmservice.com From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Rex Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 1:28 PM To: NSRCA-discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site You are correct Jim... there is no hesitation between the two seperate 2/2. Each 2/2 has a hesitation after the half roll to inverted. So, to put it as a description of requirements, you'd have "half roll", hesitation, "half roll", NO HESITATION, "half roll", hesitation, "half roll".... Rex From: jnhiller at earthlink.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 10:15:39 -0800 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site George now you have me confused. I understood that there was to be NO hesitation between the two 2/2 rolls reversed. A noticeable hesitation would warrant a downgrade. PPT page 18 and RCA-33 agree on this. Jim Hiller -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 9:47 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Jon, You've been doing it correctly. That's a list of downgrades. If there's no hesitation, it's a downgrade. ----- Original Message ----- From: richard wallace To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 12:14 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Thanks, all, for the feedback on these presentations - now if I could only FLY the Masters 09 sequence... ! BURN FUEL! (ok.... or electrons, as appropriate...) On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 7:24 AM, Jon Lowe wrote: Rick, I want to thank you for posting these. I read thru the Powerpoint presentation on the Masters sequence last nite, and picked up on two key points that I had completely missed. I hadn't thought about pulling early on the start of the hourglass to maintain geometry, and I had completely missed the fact that there is no hesitation in the two, two of two rolls opposite. I had been practicing both manuevers incorrectly.. In fact, I would have sworn there WAS a hesitation in the rolls before I read your presentation and rechecked the rules. Now if the weather would break so I could get more practice... Job well done. Jon Lowe -----Original Message----- From: richard wallace To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 6:49 am Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted on the NSRCA site The current Masters seequence is posted on the NSCA website (along with all the other current sequences) at http://nsrca.us/judginghome..html Click the desired AMA class link in the middle of the page to open or save the presentation. -- Each file is 2MB or a little less -dodwnload may take a few seconds -- Might as well save it on your local computer for later reference..! These presentations try to capture the rulebook downgrades and some helpful tips but, as always, the current rulebook is the authority! Links to FAI P09 and F09 sequences and call cards are in the listing to the right of the page. Enjoy--! _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jshulman at cfl.rr.com Sun Mar 1 11:59:31 2009 From: jshulman at cfl.rr.com (J Shu) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 20:59:31 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequencediagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site In-Reply-To: References: <000601c99aab$bfa13cb0$3ee3b610$@maurice@sgmservice.com> Message-ID: <43807A555DF24D2FB082507BBC631D17@UncleJasPC> Actually Rex, there are 'seen' pauses in the 3 rolls in FAI, sorry. But the opposite negative snaps in F are like what this reversed 2pt is. Not that it means anything, but I think it looks better with all the point-rolls having an equal pause. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Rex To: NSRCA-discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 3:52 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequencediagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Hi Gene This exact thing was brought up last season about the "three opposite rolls" in FAI. I believe the term "no perceiveable" hesitation between changing directions was used to cover that.... LOL I guess that means you better hit the point before you move the stick the other way! My guess is that if you are within a couple degrees of the point, no one could see that anyway. You are immediately changing roll direction, and the time spent at the point of change is so short, you'd have to be somewhere around five degrees off before it was actually seen as being "off". The slower the roll, the easier it is to see wing position in real time. If you are rolling in slow roll fashion, the judge could easily see if wing position is off. I guess this is all splitting hairs, because if you reverse a roll at any time, the wing has to stop rotation before it goes the other way, hence a hesitation.... This could drive a guy nuts.... But in my case, who could tell?! Rex ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: gene.maurice at sgmservice.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 14:24:39 -0600 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Don?t you have to stop the plane to show the second point (2 of 2) and then reverse the roll direction (Reversed)? Doesn?t that ?stop? create an inherent hesitation (Per Webster: to delay momentarily : pause )? If there is no delay have you presented a point and therefore really performed a two point roll? Gene Maurice Plano, TX AMA 3408 NSRCA 877 PACSS.sgmservice.com gene.maurice at sgmservice.com From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Rex Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 1:28 PM To: NSRCA-discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site You are correct Jim... there is no hesitation between the two seperate 2/2. Each 2/2 has a hesitation after the half roll to inverted. So, to put it as a description of requirements, you'd have "half roll", hesitation, "half roll", NO HESITATION, "half roll", hesitation, "half roll".... Rex ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: jnhiller at earthlink.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 10:15:39 -0800 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site George now you have me confused. I understood that there was to be NO hesitation between the two 2/2 rolls reversed. A noticeable hesitation would warrant a downgrade. PPT page 18 and RCA-33 agree on this. Jim Hiller -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 9:47 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Jon, You've been doing it correctly. That's a list of downgrades. If there's no hesitation, it's a downgrade. ----- Original Message ----- From: richard wallace To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 12:14 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Thanks, all, for the feedback on these presentations - now if I could only FLY the Masters 09 sequence... ! BURN FUEL! (ok.... or electrons, as appropriate...) On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 7:24 AM, Jon Lowe wrote: Rick, I want to thank you for posting these. I read thru the Powerpoint presentation on the Masters sequence last nite, and picked up on two key points that I had completely missed. I hadn't thought about pulling early on the start of the hourglass to maintain geometry, and I had completely missed the fact that there is no hesitation in the two, two of two rolls opposite. I had been practicing both manuevers incorrectly.. In fact, I would have sworn there WAS a hesitation in the rolls before I read your presentation and rechecked the rules. Now if the weather would break so I could get more practice... Job well done. Jon Lowe -----Original Message----- From: richard wallace To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 6:49 am Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted on the NSRCA site The current Masters seequence is posted on the NSCA website (along with all the other current sequences) at http://nsrca.us/judginghome..html Click the desired AMA class link in the middle of the page to open or save the presentation. -- Each file is 2MB or a little less -dodwnload may take a few seconds -- Might as well save it on your local computer for later reference..! These presentations try to capture the rulebook downgrades and some helpful tips but, as always, the current rulebook is the authority! Links to FAI P09 and F09 sequences and call cards are in the listing to the right of the page. Enjoy--! _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glen59shep at yahoo.com Sun Mar 1 12:06:13 2009 From: glen59shep at yahoo.com (Glen Shepherd) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 21:06:13 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009: Two 2/2 reversed Message-ID: <423367.21886.qm@web34302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I checked the RCA and I didn't see anything for Two (2) , 2/2 Reversed. I used the NSRCA link to the RCA 2009-2010 RCA-32: " Two (2), Two of Four (2/4pt) Point Rolls Reversed: From inverted flight. Model rolls through 180 degrees, hesitating at each 90 degree point. Then rolls through 180 degrees in the opposite direction hesitating at each 90 degree point. At each hesitation wings are parallel or vertical to the horizon. Center is middle of upright flight. Downgrades: 1. One-quarter rolls more or less than 90 degrees 2. Model does not hesitate after each one-quarter roll 3. Roll rate not constant 4. Changes in altitude 5. Changes in heading Two point (2/2pt) roll ? slow roll reversed: Model performs a two point (2/2pt) roll, immediately performs a slow roll in the opposite direction. See descriptions of two point roll and slow roll for requirements and downgrades for all elements except centering. Roll rates need not be the same for the two point (2/2pt) and the slow roll. Downgrades: 1. Centering. The center of the maneuver is determined as the middle of combined roll elements. Center is determined by the midpoint between the start of the two point (2/2pt) roll and finish of the slow roll. 2. Roll reversal not immediate. ? Glen Shapherd NSRCA 3017 ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From troy at troynewman.net Sun Mar 1 12:15:25 2009 From: troy at troynewman.net (Troy Newman) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 21:15:25 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009sequencediagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site In-Reply-To: <43807A555DF24D2FB082507BBC631D17@UncleJasPC> References: <000601c99aab$bfa13cb0$3ee3b610$@maurice@sgmservice.com> <43807A555DF24D2FB082507BBC631D17@UncleJasPC> Message-ID: As Jas says FAI is different in this regard than Masters. In FAI there is a general rule that each roll must have a definite start and stop to the roll element. As a result in FAI the rolls must have minimal hesitation. In AMA pattern as defined by this rule the wing needs to come down and bounce the opposite direction. Essentially for max score meaning no downgrade for this the wing needs to hit perfectly level and immediately go the other direction. This is a 2pt roll....that does not mean it has 2 points it means it has 2 ? rolls. Count the rolls not the points. Same issue in a 4pt roll....same issue in other figures. They are hesitation rolls. And the rolling element is the important part. Up until P-09 the FAI (2) ? rolls reversed had the reversal immediate as well. In the current P-09 and later the pause between the ? rolls is defined as the length of the roll element. This is not the case in AMA pattern We need to keep these two definitions separated. They are different. Troy From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of J Shu Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 1:59 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009sequencediagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Actually Rex, there are 'seen' pauses in the 3 rolls in FAI, sorry. But the opposite negative snaps in F are like what this reversed 2pt is. Not that it means anything, but I think it looks better with all the point-rolls having an equal pause. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Rex To: NSRCA-discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 3:52 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequencediagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Hi Gene This exact thing was brought up last season about the "three opposite rolls" in FAI. I believe the term "no perceiveable" hesitation between changing directions was used to cover that.... LOL I guess that means you better hit the point before you move the stick the other way! My guess is that if you are within a couple degrees of the point, no one could see that anyway. You are immediately changing roll direction, and the time spent at the point of change is so short, you'd have to be somewhere around five degrees off before it was actually seen as being "off". The slower the roll, the easier it is to see wing position in real time. If you are rolling in slow roll fashion, the judge could easily see if wing position is off. I guess this is all splitting hairs, because if you reverse a roll at any time, the wing has to stop rotation before it goes the other way, hence a hesitation.... This could drive a guy nuts.... But in my case, who could tell?! Rex ________________________________ From: gene.maurice at sgmservice.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 14:24:39 -0600 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Don't you have to stop the plane to show the second point (2 of 2) and then reverse the roll direction (Reversed)? Doesn't that "stop" create an inherent hesitation (Per Webster: to delay momentarily : pause )? If there is no delay have you presented a point and therefore really performed a two point roll? Gene Maurice Plano, TX AMA 3408 NSRCA 877 PACSS.sgmservice.com gene.maurice at sgmservice.com From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Rex Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 1:28 PM To: NSRCA-discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site You are correct Jim... there is no hesitation between the two seperate 2/2. Each 2/2 has a hesitation after the half roll to inverted. So, to put it as a description of requirements, you'd have "half roll", hesitation, "half roll", NO HESITATION, "half roll", hesitation, "half roll".... Rex ________________________________ From: jnhiller at earthlink.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 10:15:39 -0800 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site George now you have me confused. I understood that there was to be NO hesitation between the two 2/2 rolls reversed. A noticeable hesitation would warrant a downgrade. PPT page 18 and RCA-33 agree on this. Jim Hiller -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 9:47 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Jon, You've been doing it correctly. That's a list of downgrades. If there's no hesitation, it's a downgrade. ----- Original Message ----- From: richard wallace To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 12:14 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Thanks, all, for the feedback on these presentations - now if I could only FLY the Masters 09 sequence... ! BURN FUEL! (ok.... or electrons, as appropriate...) On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 7:24 AM, Jon Lowe wrote: Rick, I want to thank you for posting these. I read thru the Powerpoint presentation on the Masters sequence last nite, and picked up on two key points that I had completely missed. I hadn't thought about pulling early on the start of the hourglass to maintain geometry, and I had completely missed the fact that there is no hesitation in the two, two of two rolls opposite. I had been practicing both manuevers incorrectly.. In fact, I would have sworn there WAS a hesitation in the rolls before I read your presentation and rechecked the rules. Now if the weather would break so I could get more practice... Job well done. Jon Lowe -----Original Message----- From: richard wallace To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 6:49 am Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted on the NSRCA site The current Masters seequence is posted on the NSCA website (along with all the other current sequences) at http://nsrca.us/judginghome..html Click the desired AMA class link in the middle of the page to open or save the presentation. -- Each file is 2MB or a little less -dodwnload may take a few seconds -- Might as well save it on your local computer for later reference..! These presentations try to capture the rulebook downgrades and some helpful tips but, as always, the current rulebook is the authority! Links to FAI P09 and F09 sequences and call cards are in the listing to the right of the page. Enjoy--! _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ________________________________ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ________________________________ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter . We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ________________________________ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From js.smith at verizon.net Sun Mar 1 12:16:15 2009 From: js.smith at verizon.net (Scott Smith) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 21:16:15 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009: Two 2/2 reversed In-Reply-To: <423367.21886.qm@web34302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <423367.21886.qm@web34302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6BE35135E49244E78BB5172C0D9E5F3F@HP2> Look a little further down: Two of Two Point Rolls Reversed - From level upright or inverted flight, model performs one-half (1/2) roll to level inverted/upright flight, hesitates, performs another one-half (1/2) roll in the same direction to level upright/inverted flight. Immediately the model performs one-half (1/2) roll to level inverted/upright flight in the opposite direction to the 1st two half rolls, hesitates, performs another one-half (1/2) roll in the same direction to level upright/inverted flight. _____ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Glen Shepherd Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:06 PM To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009: Two 2/2 reversed I checked the RCA and I didn't see anything for Two (2) , 2/2 Reversed. I used the NSRCA link to the RCA 2009-2010 RCA-32: " Two (2), Two of Four (2/4pt) Point Rolls Reversed: From inverted flight. Model rolls through 180 degrees, hesitating at each 90 degree point. Then rolls through 180 degrees in the opposite direction hesitating at each 90 degree point. At each hesitation wings are parallel or vertical to the horizon. Center is middle of upright flight. Downgrades: 1. One-quarter rolls more or less than 90 degrees 2. Model does not hesitate after each one-quarter roll 3. Roll rate not constant 4. Changes in altitude 5. Changes in heading Two point (2/2pt) roll - slow roll reversed: Model performs a two point (2/2pt) roll, immediately performs a slow roll in the opposite direction. See descriptions of two point roll and slow roll for requirements and downgrades for all elements except centering. Roll rates need not be the same for the two point (2/2pt) and the slow roll. Downgrades: 1. Centering. The center of the maneuver is determined as the middle of combined roll elements. Center is determined by the midpoint between the start of the two point (2/2pt) roll and finish of the slow roll. 2. Roll reversal not immediate. Glen Shapherd NSRCA 3017 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trexlesh at msn.com Sun Mar 1 12:24:15 2009 From: trexlesh at msn.com (Rex) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 21:24:15 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequencediagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site In-Reply-To: <43807A555DF24D2FB082507BBC631D17@UncleJasPC> References: <000601c99aab$bfa13cb0$3ee3b610$@maurice@sgmservice.com> <43807A555DF24D2FB082507BBC631D17@UncleJasPC> Message-ID: I guess that's right! a "brief" pause is used to describe that.... And "brief" would be relative to roll speed?... lol And, I agree with you that they look better with equal pause. In my way of thinking, it shows better control. Thanks for the correction, Jason! Rex From: jshulman at cfl.rr.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 15:59:19 -0500 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequencediagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Actually Rex, there are 'seen' pauses in the 3 rolls in FAI, sorry. But the opposite negative snaps in F are like what this reversed 2pt is. Not that it means anything, but I think it looks better with all the point-rolls having an equal pause. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Rex To: NSRCA-discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 3:52 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequencediagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Hi Gene This exact thing was brought up last season about the "three opposite rolls" in FAI. I believe the term "no perceiveable" hesitation between changing directions was used to cover that.... LOL I guess that means you better hit the point before you move the stick the other way! My guess is that if you are within a couple degrees of the point, no one could see that anyway. You are immediately changing roll direction, and the time spent at the point of change is so short, you'd have to be somewhere around five degrees off before it was actually seen as being "off". The slower the roll, the easier it is to see wing position in real time. If you are rolling in slow roll fashion, the judge could easily see if wing position is off. I guess this is all splitting hairs, because if you reverse a roll at any time, the wing has to stop rotation before it goes the other way, hence a hesitation.... This could drive a guy nuts.... But in my case, who could tell?! Rex From: gene.maurice at sgmservice.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 14:24:39 -0600 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Don?t you have to stop the plane to show the second point (2 of 2) and then reverse the roll direction (Reversed)? Doesn?t that ?stop? create an inherent hesitation (Per Webster: to delay momentarily : pause )? If there is no delay have you presented a point and therefore really performed a two point roll? Gene Maurice Plano, TX AMA 3408 NSRCA 877 PACSS.sgmservice.com gene.maurice at sgmservice.com From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Rex Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 1:28 PM To: NSRCA-discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site You are correct Jim... there is no hesitation between the two seperate 2/2. Each 2/2 has a hesitation after the half roll to inverted. So, to put it as a description of requirements, you'd have "half roll", hesitation, "half roll", NO HESITATION, "half roll", hesitation, "half roll".... Rex From: jnhiller at earthlink.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 10:15:39 -0800 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site George now you have me confused. I understood that there was to be NO hesitation between the two 2/2 rolls reversed. A noticeable hesitation would warrant a downgrade. PPT page 18 and RCA-33 agree on this. Jim Hiller -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 9:47 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Jon, You've been doing it correctly. That's a list of downgrades. If there's no hesitation, it's a downgrade. ----- Original Message ----- From: richard wallace To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 12:14 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Thanks, all, for the feedback on these presentations - now if I could only FLY the Masters 09 sequence... ! BURN FUEL! (ok.... or electrons, as appropriate...) On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 7:24 AM, Jon Lowe wrote: Rick, I want to thank you for posting these. I read thru the Powerpoint presentation on the Masters sequence last nite, and picked up on two key points that I had completely missed. I hadn't thought about pulling early on the start of the hourglass to maintain geometry, and I had completely missed the fact that there is no hesitation in the two, two of two rolls opposite. I had been practicing both manuevers incorrectly.. In fact, I would have sworn there WAS a hesitation in the rolls before I read your presentation and rechecked the rules. Now if the weather would break so I could get more practice... Job well done. Jon Lowe -----Original Message----- From: richard wallace To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 6:49 am Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted on the NSRCA site The current Masters seequence is posted on the NSCA website (along with all the other current sequences) at http://nsrca.us/judginghome..html Click the desired AMA class link in the middle of the page to open or save the presentation. -- Each file is 2MB or a little less -dodwnload may take a few seconds -- Might as well save it on your local computer for later reference..! These presentations try to capture the rulebook downgrades and some helpful tips but, as always, the current rulebook is the authority! Links to FAI P09 and F09 sequences and call cards are in the listing to the right of the page. Enjoy--! _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billglaze at bellsouth.net Sun Mar 1 12:30:15 2009 From: billglaze at bellsouth.net (billglaze) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 21:30:15 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Message-ID: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Bill Glaze.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 126 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rickwallace45 at gmail.com Sun Mar 1 12:33:18 2009 From: rickwallace45 at gmail.com (richard wallace) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 21:33:18 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009: Two 2/2 reversed In-Reply-To: <6BE35135E49244E78BB5172C0D9E5F3F@HP2> References: <423367.21886.qm@web34302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6BE35135E49244E78BB5172C0D9E5F3F@HP2> Message-ID: Great catch; I didn't find the maneuver description when I looked at the rulebook earlier. Always in the past the rule book had the maneuver descriptions in alphabetical order by maneuver name. Wonder if it would be possible to fix the RC Aerobatics rulebook so that the maneuver descriptions appear in alphabetical order as before? I'm not sure it's reasonable to make guys (esp in the heat of a contest) read the whole list to find stuff tacked onto the end of the descriptions in no particular order.... esp when using a paper copy on a flight line and not an exectronic copy on a computer... The thing should be a usable reference whether in paper or electronic form, and that seems to imply find-able details... On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 4:15 PM, Scott Smith wrote: > Look a little further down: > > > > *Two of Two Point Rolls Reversed ? *From level upright or inverted flight, > model performs one-half (1/2) roll to level inverted/upright flight, > hesitates, performs another one-half (1/2) roll in the same direction to > level upright/inverted flight. *Immediately* the model performs one-half > (1/2) roll to level inverted/upright flight in the opposite direction to the > 1st two half rolls, hesitates, performs another one-half (1/2) roll in the > same direction to level upright/inverted flight. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto: > nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] *On Behalf Of *Glen Shepherd > *Sent:* Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:06 PM > *To:* nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > *Subject:* [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009: Two 2/2 reversed > > > > I checked the RCA and I didn't see anything for Two (2) , 2/2 Reversed. I > used the NSRCA link to the RCA > > 2009-2010 RCA-32: " > > *Two (2), Two of Four (2/4pt) Point Rolls Reversed: *From inverted flight. > Model rolls through 180 degrees, hesitating at each 90 degree point. Then > rolls through 180 degrees in the opposite direction hesitating at each 90 > degree point. At each hesitation wings are parallel or vertical to the > horizon. Center is middle of upright flight. Downgrades: > > *1*. One-quarter rolls more or less than 90 degrees > > *2. Model does not hesitate after each one-quarter roll * > > *3*. Roll rate not constant > > *4*. Changes in altitude > > *5*. Changes in heading > > *Two point (2/2pt) roll ? slow roll reversed: *Model performs a two point > (2/2pt) roll, immediately performs a slow roll in the opposite direction. > See descriptions of two point roll and slow roll for requirements and > downgrades for all elements except centering. Roll rates need not be the > same for the two point (2/2pt) and the slow roll. Downgrades: > > *1*. Centering. The center of the maneuver is determined as the middle of > combined roll elements. Center is determined by the midpoint between the > start of the two point (2/2pt) roll and finish of the slow roll. > > *2**. Roll reversal not immediate.* > > > > Glen Shapherd > > NSRCA 3017 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geobet4 at verizon.net Sun Mar 1 13:33:08 2009 From: geobet4 at verizon.net (George W.Kennie) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 22:33:08 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009sequencediagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site References: <000601c99aab$bfa13cb0$3ee3b610$@maurice@sgmservice.com> <43807A555DF24D2FB082507BBC631D17@UncleJasPC> Message-ID: <0E11CD41DB674A3FB66004F2D1056D57@CYBERPOWER> Sorry Jon and Jim, Thanks to Troy, I stand corrected. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: Troy Newman To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:15 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009sequencediagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site As Jas says FAI is different in this regard than Masters. In FAI there is a general rule that each roll must have a definite start and stop to the roll element. As a result in FAI the rolls must have minimal hesitation. In AMA pattern as defined by this rule the wing needs to come down and bounce the opposite direction. Essentially for max score meaning no downgrade for this the wing needs to hit perfectly level and immediately go the other direction. This is a 2pt roll..that does not mean it has 2 points it means it has 2 ? rolls. Count the rolls not the points. Same issue in a 4pt roll..same issue in other figures. They are hesitation rolls. And the rolling element is the important part. Up until P-09 the FAI (2) ? rolls reversed had the reversal immediate as well. In the current P-09 and later the pause between the ? rolls is defined as the length of the roll element. This is not the case in AMA pattern We need to keep these two definitions separated. They are different. Troy From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of J Shu Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 1:59 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009sequencediagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Actually Rex, there are 'seen' pauses in the 3 rolls in FAI, sorry. But the opposite negative snaps in F are like what this reversed 2pt is. Not that it means anything, but I think it looks better with all the point-rolls having an equal pause. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Rex To: NSRCA-discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 3:52 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequencediagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Hi Gene This exact thing was brought up last season about the "three opposite rolls" in FAI. I believe the term "no perceiveable" hesitation between changing directions was used to cover that.... LOL I guess that means you better hit the point before you move the stick the other way! My guess is that if you are within a couple degrees of the point, no one could see that anyway. You are immediately changing roll direction, and the time spent at the point of change is so short, you'd have to be somewhere around five degrees off before it was actually seen as being "off". The slower the roll, the easier it is to see wing position in real time. If you are rolling in slow roll fashion, the judge could easily see if wing position is off. I guess this is all splitting hairs, because if you reverse a roll at any time, the wing has to stop rotation before it goes the other way, hence a hesitation.... This could drive a guy nuts.... But in my case, who could tell?! Rex ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gene.maurice at sgmservice.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 14:24:39 -0600 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Don't you have to stop the plane to show the second point (2 of 2) and then reverse the roll direction (Reversed)? Doesn't that "stop" create an inherent hesitation (Per Webster: to delay momentarily : pause )? If there is no delay have you presented a point and therefore really performed a two point roll? Gene Maurice Plano, TX AMA 3408 NSRCA 877 PACSS.sgmservice.com gene.maurice at sgmservice.com From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Rex Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 1:28 PM To: NSRCA-discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site You are correct Jim... there is no hesitation between the two seperate 2/2. Each 2/2 has a hesitation after the half roll to inverted. So, to put it as a description of requirements, you'd have "half roll", hesitation, "half roll", NO HESITATION, "half roll", hesitation, "half roll".... Rex ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jnhiller at earthlink.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 10:15:39 -0800 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site George now you have me confused. I understood that there was to be NO hesitation between the two 2/2 rolls reversed. A noticeable hesitation would warrant a downgrade. PPT page 18 and RCA-33 agree on this. Jim Hiller -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 9:47 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Jon, You've been doing it correctly. That's a list of downgrades. If there's no hesitation, it's a downgrade. ----- Original Message ----- From: richard wallace To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 12:14 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Thanks, all, for the feedback on these presentations - now if I could only FLY the Masters 09 sequence... ! BURN FUEL! (ok.... or electrons, as appropriate...) On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 7:24 AM, Jon Lowe wrote: Rick, I want to thank you for posting these. I read thru the Powerpoint presentation on the Masters sequence last nite, and picked up on two key points that I had completely missed. I hadn't thought about pulling early on the start of the hourglass to maintain geometry, and I had completely missed the fact that there is no hesitation in the two, two of two rolls opposite. I had been practicing both manuevers incorrectly.. In fact, I would have sworn there WAS a hesitation in the rolls before I read your presentation and rechecked the rules. Now if the weather would break so I could get more practice... Job well done. Jon Lowe -----Original Message----- From: richard wallace To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 6:49 am Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted on the NSRCA site The current Masters seequence is posted on the NSCA website (along with all the other current sequences) at http://nsrca.us/judginghome..html Click the desired AMA class link in the middle of the page to open or save the presentation. -- Each file is 2MB or a little less -dodwnload may take a few seconds -- Might as well save it on your local computer for later reference..! These presentations try to capture the rulebook downgrades and some helpful tips but, as always, the current rulebook is the authority! Links to FAI P09 and F09 sequences and call cards are in the listing to the right of the page. Enjoy--! _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geobet4 at verizon.net Sun Mar 1 13:47:45 2009 From: geobet4 at verizon.net (George W.Kennie) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 22:47:45 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site References: Message-ID: <957368BECA4949479A316258F9925B78@CYBERPOWER> Boy, I gotta get my act together. I wonder what else I've been flying incorrectly. Please disregard anything I say in the future. the dummy ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 1:15 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site George now you have me confused. I understood that there was to be NO hesitation between the two 2/2 rolls reversed. A noticeable hesitation would warrant a downgrade. PPT page 18 and RCA-33 agree on this. Jim Hiller -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 9:47 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Jon, You've been doing it correctly. That's a list of downgrades. If there's no hesitation, it's a downgrade. ----- Original Message ----- From: richard wallace To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 12:14 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted onthe NSRCA site Thanks, all, for the feedback on these presentations - now if I could only FLY the Masters 09 sequence... ! BURN FUEL! (ok... or electrons, as appropriate...) On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 7:24 AM, Jon Lowe wrote: Rick, I want to thank you for posting these. I read thru the Powerpoint presentation on the Masters sequence last nite, and picked up on two key points that I had completely missed. I hadn't thought about pulling early on the start of the hourglass to maintain geometry, and I had completely missed the fact that there is no hesitation in the two, two of two rolls opposite. I had been practicing both manuevers incorrectly. In fact, I would have sworn there WAS a hesitation in the rolls before I read your presentation and rechecked the rules. Now if the weather would break so I could get more practice... Job well done. Jon Lowe -----Original Message----- From: richard wallace To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 6:49 am Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009 sequence diagrams are posted on the NSRCA site The current Masters seequence is posted on the NSCA website (along with all the other current sequences) at http://nsrca.us/judginghome.html Click the desired AMA class link in the middle of the page to open or save the presentation. -- Each file is 2MB or a little less -dodwnload may take a few seconds -- Might as well save it on your local computer for later reference...! These presentations try to capture the rulebook downgrades and some helpful tips but, as always, the current rulebook is the authority! Links to FAI P09 and F09 sequences and call cards are in the listing to the right of the page. Enjoy--! _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rcmaster199 at aol.com Sun Mar 1 14:32:46 2009 From: rcmaster199 at aol.com (rcmaster199 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 23:32:46 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009: Two 2/2 reversed In-Reply-To: <6BE35135E49244E78BB5172C0D9E5F3F@HP2> References: <6BE35135E49244E78BB5172C0D9E5F3F@HP2> Message-ID: <8CB68DD22A3BBCA-CF8-78@WEBMAIL-MB06.sysops.aol.com> Reversal is immediate. Point rolls require hesitation Immediate reversal means as soon as model's wing reach horizontal, model needs to start the opposite roll. There are situations in maneuvers where opposite rolling elements are present (Reverse Point Roll, Reverse Knife Edge,etc., for example) where reversal MUST NOT happen immediately because a hesitation must be flown of some duration. But in TWO, 2/2 Rolls Opposite, the description requires 2 individual and complete 2/2 rolls to be done, in opposite directions. This follows established precedent (first done in F3A assymetric rolling maneuvers) where two different rolls were required in opposite directions. I am pretty sure F3A folks remember the 1 1/2 Snap. 4/8 Roll opposite they flew about 6 or 7 years ago. It was the first such maneuver introduced into Pattern MattK -----Original Message----- From: Scott Smith To: glen59shep at yahoo.com; 'General pattern discussion' Sent: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 4:15 pm Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009: Two 2/2 reversed Look a little further down: ? Two of Two Point Rolls Reversed ? From level upright or inverted flight, model performs one-half (1/2) roll to level inverted/upright flight, hesitates, performs another one-half (1/2) roll in the same direction to level upright/inverted flight. Immediately the model performs one-half (1/2) roll to level inverted/upright fli ght in the opposite direction to the 1st two half rolls, hesitates, performs another one-half (1/2) roll in the same direction to level upright/inverted flight. ? ? From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Glen Shepherd Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:06 PM To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009: Two 2/2 reversed ? I checked the RCA and I didn't see anything for Two (2) , 2/2 Reversed. I used the NSRCA link to the RCA 2009-2010 RCA-32: " Two (2), Two of Four (2/4pt) Point Rolls Reversed: From inverted flight. Model rolls through 180 degrees, hesitating at each 90 degree point. Then rolls through 180 degrees in the opposite direction hesitating at each 90 degree point. At each hesitation wings are parallel or vertical to the horizon. Center is middle of upright flight. Downgrades: 1. One-quarter rolls more or less than 90 degrees 2. Model does not hesitate after each one-quarter roll 3. Roll rate not constant 4. Changes in altitude 5. Changes in heading Two point (2/2pt) roll ? slow roll reversed: Model performs a two point (2/2pt) roll, immediately performs a slow roll in the opposite direction. See descriptions of two point roll and slow roll for requirements and downgrades for all elements except centering. Roll rates need not be the same for the two point (2/2pt) and the slow roll. Downgrades: 1. Centering. The center of the maneuver is determined as the middle of combined roll elements. Center is determined by the midpoint between the start of the two point (2/2pt) roll and finish of the slow roll. 2. Roll reversal not immediate. ? Glen Shapherd NSRCA 3017 ? ?_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From tkeithblack at gmail.com Sun Mar 1 19:17:56 2009 From: tkeithblack at gmail.com (Keith Black) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 04:17:56 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009: Two 2/2 reversed In-Reply-To: <8CB68DD22A3BBCA-CF8-78@WEBMAIL-MB06.sysops.aol.com> References: <6BE35135E49244E78BB5172C0D9E5F3F@HP2> <8CB68DD22A3BBCA-CF8-78@WEBMAIL-MB06.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <024701c99aed$e12a1d10$a37e5730$@com> This will make centering the maneuver more difficult (since you can't draw the line out to compensate for getting there early), however, I think it should make the maneuver easier to fit in the box. With a good tail wind inserting three pauses with four unrushed half rolls eats up the box REAL quickly. This allows us to fly two 2/2 rolls on each side of center going all the way to center to complete the 2 of 2. I'm anxious to give this a try. Keith -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of rcmaster199 at aol.com Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 5:33 PM To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org; glen59shep at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009: Two 2/2 reversed Reversal is immediate. Point rolls require hesitation Immediate reversal means as soon as model's wing reach horizontal, model needs to start the opposite roll. There are situations in maneuvers where opposite rolling elements are present (Reverse Point Roll, Reverse Knife Edge,etc., for example) where reversal MUST NOT happen immediately because a hesitation must be flown of some duration. But in TWO, 2/2 Rolls Opposite, the description requires 2 individual and complete 2/2 rolls to be done, in opposite directions. This follows established precedent (first done in F3A assymetric rolling maneuvers) where two different rolls were required in opposite directions. I am pretty sure F3A folks remember the 1 1/2 Snap. 4/8 Roll opposite they flew about 6 or 7 years ago. It was the first such maneuver introduced into Pattern MattK -----Original Message----- From: Scott Smith To: glen59shep at yahoo.com; 'General pattern discussion' Sent: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 4:15 pm Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009: Two 2/2 reversed Look a little further down: Two of Two Point Rolls Reversed ? From level upright or inverted flight, model performs one-half (1/2) roll to level inverted/upright flight, hesitates, performs another one-half (1/2) roll in the same direction to level upright/inverted flight. Immediately the model performs one-half (1/2) roll to level inverted/upright fli ght in the opposite direction to the 1st two half rolls, hesitates, performs another one-half (1/2) roll in the same direction to level upright/inverted flight. From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Glen Shepherd Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:06 PM To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009: Two 2/2 reversed I checked the RCA and I didn't see anything for Two (2) , 2/2 Reversed. I used the NSRCA link to the RCA 2009-2010 RCA-32: " Two (2), Two of Four (2/4pt) Point Rolls Reversed: From inverted flight. Model rolls through 180 degrees, hesitating at each 90 degree point. Then rolls through 180 degrees in the opposite direction hesitating at each 90 degree point. At each hesitation wings are parallel or vertical to the horizon. Center is middle of upright flight. Downgrades: 1. One-quarter rolls more or less than 90 degrees 2. Model does not hesitate after each one-quarter roll 3. Roll rate not constant 4. Changes in altitude 5. Changes in heading Two point (2/2pt) roll ? slow roll reversed: Model performs a two point (2/2pt) roll, immediately performs a slow roll in the opposite direction. See descriptions of two point roll and slow roll for requirements and downgrades for all elements except centering. Roll rates need not be the same for the two point (2/2pt) and the slow roll. Downgrades: 1. Centering. The center of the maneuver is determined as the middle of combined roll elements. Center is determined by the midpoint between the start of the two point (2/2pt) roll and finish of the slow roll. 2. Roll reversal not immediate. Glen Shapherd NSRCA 3017 _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From xaviermouraux at yahoo.com Mon Mar 2 05:48:07 2009 From: xaviermouraux at yahoo.com (Xavier Mouraux) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 14:48:07 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Radio sticks modes In-Reply-To: <024701c99aed$e12a1d10$a37e5730$@com> Message-ID: <646554.6528.qm@web38906.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello, I am curious to know who may have changed from one mode to the other (I am looking in particular at rudder-trottle on the left vs aileron-trottle on the left) at anytime during their pattern career. If so, how did you do it ? How long did it take to get back to the same level of confidence ? etc. For now, I have spend some time on the simulator and a few flights with a foamie. It's not easy at first. It needs a lot of concentration. Thanks Xavier From glmiller3 at suddenlink.net Mon Mar 2 06:16:46 2009 From: glmiller3 at suddenlink.net (glmiller3 at suddenlink.net) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 15:16:46 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Radio sticks modes In-Reply-To: <646554.6528.qm@web38906.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090302091637.A3F90.1078718.root@Web03> Hi Xavier, I learned to fly in the 70's Mode 1 - I had to stop flying for a decade and when I came back to the hobby in the 90's it seemed like everyone was flying Mode II, so I restarted with the new mode. I think the long hiatus made relearning easier, but I wouldn't suggest you take a decade off and restart. G ---- Xavier Mouraux wrote: ============= Hello, I am curious to know who may have changed from one mode to the other (I am looking in particular at rudder-trottle on the left vs aileron-trottle on the left) at anytime during their pattern career. If so, how did you do it ? How long did it take to get back to the same level of confidence ? etc. For now, I have spend some time on the simulator and a few flights with a foamie. It's not easy at first. It needs a lot of concentration. Thanks Xavier _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From jlkonn at hotmail.com Mon Mar 2 06:36:35 2009 From: jlkonn at hotmail.com (John Konneker) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 15:36:35 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Louver slotted spinner Message-ID: Sometime during 2006 there was an article in a K-Factor showing how someone slotted a spinner to allow cooling air to enter the spinner then exit a lightened backplate. Anyone remember which issue it was? Thanks! JLK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trexlesh at msn.com Mon Mar 2 07:05:45 2009 From: trexlesh at msn.com (Rex) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 16:05:45 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Louver slotted spinner In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That was me John.... Just go here....http://www.nsrca.org/d8/TipsTricks.htm It's pretty simple to do. Rex From: jlkonn at hotmail.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:36:33 -0600 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Louver slotted spinner Sometime during 2006 there was an article in a K-Factor showing how someone slotted a spinner to allow cooling air to enter the spinner then exit a lightened backplate. Anyone remember which issue it was? Thanks! JLK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geobet4 at verizon.net Mon Mar 2 07:15:41 2009 From: geobet4 at verizon.net (George W.Kennie) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 16:15:41 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Message-ID: <7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER> Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlkonn at hotmail.com Mon Mar 2 07:32:04 2009 From: jlkonn at hotmail.com (John Konneker) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 16:32:04 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions In-Reply-To: <7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER> References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> <7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER> Message-ID: Cut and pasted from the AMA website this morning: Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the landing zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case shall exceed 30 meters. Landing is not a centered maneuver and there is no downgrade for displacement of the touchdown point left or right from center as long as the landing is in the landing zone. If the touchdown is within the runway but not in the landing zone it should be downgraded proportionate to the distance outside the landing zone. The Contest Director may designate any landing zone appropriate to the field if safety considerations dictate. If the landing zone is anything other than standard it should be thoroughly discussed with the pilots and judges before flying is started and no downgrade shall be applied due to the touchdown in the non-standard landing zone. Emphasis added by me. This of course for AMA classes. JLK From: geobet4 at verizon.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:15:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billglaze at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 2 07:32:14 2009 From: billglaze at bellsouth.net (billglaze) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 16:32:14 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> <7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER> Message-ID: <003001c99b54$6fabfbb0$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Thanks, Georgie: There are so many scenarios, but I feel they could probably be covered and remove any confusion, (at least, MY confusion) to make it more cut and dried. I've seen a plane, more than once, touch down with a couple of yards to go in the LZ. Nothing new there, but it then goes out of the LZ and who knows what will happen? If it rolled to a stop within the LZ, then the 15 meters come into play. Probably I'm the only one here trying to pick flyspecks out of pepper, and maybe it isn't necessary. But, I was judging at a contest last Fall, and the plane touched down within a few yards, (maybe 4) of the end of the LZ, went into the tall grass off the end, and went over on it's back. I zeroed the landing. Later the CD asked me: "Did it touch down in the LZ?" I said "yes." He said "then it's not a zero." O.K. then what is it? That happens often enough that it should be cut-and-dried; maybe it is for everybody else. Thanks much for coming back to me; your opinion is always considered valid and worthy of consideration. Bill Glaze ----- Original Message ----- From: George W.Kennie To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:15 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billglaze at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 2 07:39:37 2009 From: billglaze at bellsouth.net (billglaze) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 16:39:37 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst><7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER> Message-ID: <004301c99b55$771637c0$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Thanks, John. According to this, then, (and, I've read it myself many times) the only thing necessary is to get the nose up (flare) before touchdown, and let the plane roll 33 feet, (10 Meters) and that's the end of judging. After the plane has rolled 10 meters, a retract can fold, it can go on it's back, ground loop, do any kind of outrageous thing, and still the only thing counted is between 6 feet of altitude, touchdown, and 33 feet (used to be 50 feet) after touchdown. Correct? Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker To: Discussion List Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Cut and pasted from the AMA website this morning: Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the landing zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case shall exceed 30 meters. Landing is not a centered maneuver and there is no downgrade for displacement of the touchdown point left or right from center as long as the landing is in the landing zone. If the touchdown is within the runway but not in the landing zone it should be downgraded proportionate to the distance outside the landing zone. The Contest Director may designate any landing zone appropriate to the field if safety considerations dictate. If the landing zone is anything other than standard it should be thoroughly discussed with the pilots and judges before flying is started and no downgrade shall be applied due to the touchdown in the non-standard landing zone. Emphasis added by me. This of course for AMA classes. JLK ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: geobet4 at verizon.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:15:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billglaze at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 2 07:44:34 2009 From: billglaze at bellsouth.net (billglaze) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 16:44:34 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst><7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER> Message-ID: <005801c99b56$2908dff0$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> John, as a follow up, it isn't unusual for the LZ at local contests to be the entire runway that's mowed. In some cases, that can be from 300 ft. to 750 ft. (Yeah, I've seen that announced also by the CD at the pilot's meeting) And, if it touches down in this huge LZ, rolls a few feet, and goes outside in the tall grass, tipping over, (lets say) considering the fact that it isn't a centered maneuver, what then? Believe me, I'm not arguing; just getting a feel for some of the answers to these oft-seen scenarios. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker To: Discussion List Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Cut and pasted from the AMA website this morning: Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the landing zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case shall exceed 30 meters. Landing is not a centered maneuver and there is no downgrade for displacement of the touchdown point left or right from center as long as the landing is in the landing zone. If the touchdown is within the runway but not in the landing zone it should be downgraded proportionate to the distance outside the landing zone. The Contest Director may designate any landing zone appropriate to the field if safety considerations dictate. If the landing zone is anything other than standard it should be thoroughly discussed with the pilots and judges before flying is started and no downgrade shall be applied due to the touchdown in the non-standard landing zone. Emphasis added by me. This of course for AMA classes. JLK ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: geobet4 at verizon.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:15:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dkrev at shaw.ca Mon Mar 2 07:44:55 2009 From: dkrev at shaw.ca (Dave Reaville) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 16:44:55 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Louver slotted spinner In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi John I do beleive it was Rex Lesher that brought that slotted spinner idea to the K-Factor. I know we talked about it several years ago and it involve a slit on each side of the spinner that was then moulded inward to provide cooling to the motor. What say you Rex? :-) Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker Date: Monday, March 2, 2009 7:36 am Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Louver slotted spinner To: Discussion List > > Sometime during 2006 there was an article in a K-Factor showing > how someone slotted a spinner > > to allow cooling air to enter the spinner then exit a lightened > backplate. > Anyone remember which issue it was? > > Thanks! > > JLK > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trexlesh at msn.com Mon Mar 2 07:51:49 2009 From: trexlesh at msn.com (Rex) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 16:51:49 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Louver slotted spinner In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Exactly right! Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 08:45:06 -0800 From: dkrev at shaw.ca To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Louver slotted spinner Hi John I do beleive it was Rex Lesher that brought that slotted spinner idea to the K-Factor. I know we talked about it several years ago and it involve a slit on each side of the spinner that was then moulded inward to provide cooling to the motor. What say you Rex? :-) Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker Date: Monday, March 2, 2009 7:36 am Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Louver slotted spinner To: Discussion List > > Sometime during 2006 there was an article in a K-Factor showing > how someone slotted a spinner > > to allow cooling air to enter the spinner then exit a lightened > backplate. > Anyone remember which issue it was? > > Thanks! > > JLK > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mups1953 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 2 07:57:01 2009 From: mups1953 at yahoo.com (mike mueller) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 16:57:01 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] OS 160 exhaust system needed Message-ID: <399476.14487.qm@web51004.mail.re2.yahoo.com> ?I have a newbie in my club that has Eric Hendersons old Evoulution. This is the famous plane that caused all the stir on the RCU/RCG websites. Seems we had a guy that was buying planes and not paying for them. In the end the plane was recovered by the police in Aurora Illinois. Eric had Jimmy and Bobby pick it up at the police station and?gave the plane or the remains that?were salvagable to Bobby with instructions that it was to go to a new guy. Bobby has found a a new?pattern interested guy?and now I would like to help him get it flying again. ?We are looking for a used exhaust system for the plane. I guess we need a Karl Mueller Focus type?inverted header, a usable 2C pipe. and if any?one has a?used,cheap? perry V30 pump. If you have some or all of these items please Email me private and let me know what you need to get. Not looking for a handout just seeing if we can put some old stuff to use.?As always thanks for your help. Mike Mueller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dkrev at shaw.ca Mon Mar 2 07:57:58 2009 From: dkrev at shaw.ca (Dave Reaville) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 16:57:58 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Louver slotted spinner In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Rex I guess I should read the rest of my emails before responding.... looks like you covered it! Back to gambling with my kid's inheritance... :-) Vegas Baby! Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Rex Date: Monday, March 2, 2009 8:52 am Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Louver slotted spinner To: NSRCA-discussion > > Exactly right! > > > > Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 08:45:06 -0800 > From: dkrev at shaw.ca > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Louver slotted spinner > > > Hi John > > I do beleive it was Rex Lesher that brought that slotted spinner > idea to the K-Factor. I know we talked about it several years > ago and it involve a slit on each side of the spinner that was > then moulded inward to provide cooling to the motor. > > What say you Rex? :-) > > Dave > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John Konneker > Date: Monday, March 2, 2009 7:36 am > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Louver slotted spinner > To: Discussion List > > > > > Sometime during 2006 there was an article in a K-Factor > showing > > how someone slotted a spinner > > > > to allow cooling air to enter the spinner then exit a > lightened > > backplate. > > Anyone remember which issue it was? > > > > Thanks! > > > > JLK > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlkonn at hotmail.com Mon Mar 2 08:04:24 2009 From: jlkonn at hotmail.com (John Konneker) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 17:04:24 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions In-Reply-To: <005801c99b56$2908dff0$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst><7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER> <005801c99b56$2908dff0$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Message-ID: I don't know... I'm just a low class no class guy trying to learn too. Are we confusing landing "area" with landing "zone". Again from the rulebook: The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the landing zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case shall exceed 30 meters. So in your example of 300 ft that would be a landing "area" 100ft beyond the "zone" in both directions. It seems the CD is deviating from the rules unnecessarily. Be that as it may in my mind if he says the entire length is the zone and you run off the face of the earth after that and flip over because there is no "runway" I don't see a downgrade. JLK From: billglaze at bellsouth.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:44:30 -0500 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions John, as a follow up, it isn't unusual for the LZ at local contests to be the entire runway that's mowed. In some cases, that can be from 300 ft. to 750 ft. (Yeah, I've seen that announced also by the CD at the pilot's meeting) And, if it touches down in this huge LZ, rolls a few feet, and goes outside in the tall grass, tipping over, (lets say) considering the fact that it isn't a centered maneuver, what then? Believe me, I'm not arguing; just getting a feel for some of the answers to these oft-seen scenarios. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker To: Discussion List Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Cut and pasted from the AMA website this morning: Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the landing zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case shall exceed 30 meters. Landing is not a centered maneuver and there is no downgrade for displacement of the touchdown point left or right from center as long as the landing is in the landing zone. If the touchdown is within the runway but not in the landing zone it should be downgraded proportionate to the distance outside the landing zone. The Contest Director may designate any landing zone appropriate to the field if safety considerations dictate. If the landing zone is anything other than standard it should be thoroughly discussed with the pilots and judges before flying is started and no downgrade shall be applied due to the touchdown in the non-standard landing zone. Emphasis added by me. This of course for AMA classes. JLK From: geobet4 at verizon.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:15:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trexlesh at msn.com Mon Mar 2 08:06:44 2009 From: trexlesh at msn.com (Rex) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 17:06:44 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Louver slotted spinner In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Vegas!? First, it's Chris Moon! Now you?! What's going on? Do you heavy jockeys know something the rest of us don't, or is it the other way around? lol Rex Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 08:58:09 -0800 From: dkrev at shaw.ca To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Louver slotted spinner Hi Rex I guess I should read the rest of my emails before responding.... looks like you covered it! Back to gambling with my kid's inheritance... :-) Vegas Baby! Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Rex Date: Monday, March 2, 2009 8:52 am Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Louver slotted spinner To: NSRCA-discussion > > Exactly right! > > > > Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 08:45:06 -0800 > From: dkrev at shaw.ca > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Louver slotted spinner > > > Hi John > > I do beleive it was Rex Lesher that brought that slotted spinner > idea to the K-Factor. I know we talked about it several years > ago and it involve a slit on each side of the spinner that was > then moulded inward to provide cooling to the motor. > > What say you Rex? :-) > > Dave > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John Konneker > Date: Monday, March 2, 2009 7:36 am > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Louver slotted spinner > To: Discussion List > > > > > Sometime during 2006 there was an article in a K-Factor > showing > > how someone slotted a spinner > > > > to allow cooling air to enter the spinner then exit a > lightened > > backplate. > > Anyone remember which issue it was? > > > > Thanks! > > > > JLK > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From getterflash at yahoo.com Mon Mar 2 08:09:30 2009 From: getterflash at yahoo.com (Bob Kane) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 17:09:30 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> <7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER> Message-ID: <913512.83354.qm@web36704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> . . . . .And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. I've come close by performing an ugly 1/2 barrel roll first . . . . . ;) Bob Kane getterflash at yahoo.com ________________________________ From: George W.Kennie To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 2, 2009 11:15:23 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 ________________________________ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ________________________________ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlkonn at hotmail.com Mon Mar 2 08:09:41 2009 From: jlkonn at hotmail.com (John Konneker) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 17:09:41 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions In-Reply-To: <004301c99b55$771637c0$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst><7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER> <004301c99b55$771637c0$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Message-ID: Bill, I would say your statement would be true if you rolled 10 meters AND "slowed below flying speed." JLK From: billglaze at bellsouth.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:39:32 -0500 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Thanks, John. According to this, then, (and, I've read it myself many times) the only thing necessary is to get the nose up (flare) before touchdown, and let the plane roll 33 feet, (10 Meters) and that's the end of judging. After the plane has rolled 10 meters, a retract can fold, it can go on it's back, ground loop, do any kind of outrageous thing, and still the only thing counted is between 6 feet of altitude, touchdown, and 33 feet (used to be 50 feet) after touchdown. Correct? Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker To: Discussion List Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Cut and pasted from the AMA website this morning: Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the landing zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case shall exceed 30 meters. Landing is not a centered maneuver and there is no downgrade for displacement of the touchdown point left or right from center as long as the landing is in the landing zone. If the touchdown is within the runway but not in the landing zone it should be downgraded proportionate to the distance outside the landing zone. The Contest Director may designate any landing zone appropriate to the field if safety considerations dictate. If the landing zone is anything other than standard it should be thoroughly discussed with the pilots and judges before flying is started and no downgrade shall be applied due to the touchdown in the non-standard landing zone. Emphasis added by me. This of course for AMA classes. JLK From: geobet4 at verizon.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:15:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billglaze at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 2 08:11:29 2009 From: billglaze at bellsouth.net (billglaze) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 17:11:29 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst><7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER> <005801c99b56$2908dff0$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Message-ID: <00ce01c99b59$eae2da60$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Then, a touchdown in the LZ (mowed part of the runway) when there isn't even enough room for a after-touchdown roll, wouldn't be a downgrade? Not trying to be a Guardhouse Lawyer here, John, (you know me better than that from our conversation) I've asked this question before, (usually at a contest) and not gotten an answer. Thank Heaven, most landings don't come under this nit-picking scrutiny, but I just want to be able to defend my territory, whatever it may wind up to be. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker To: Discussion List Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions I don't know... I'm just a low class no class guy trying to learn too. Are we confusing landing "area" with landing "zone". Again from the rulebook: The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the landing zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case shall exceed 30 meters. So in your example of 300 ft that would be a landing "area" 100ft beyond the "zone" in both directions. It seems the CD is deviating from the rules unnecessarily. Be that as it may in my mind if he says the entire length is the zone and you run off the face of the earth after that and flip over because there is no "runway" I don't see a downgrade. JLK ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: billglaze at bellsouth.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:44:30 -0500 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions John, as a follow up, it isn't unusual for the LZ at local contests to be the entire runway that's mowed. In some cases, that can be from 300 ft. to 750 ft. (Yeah, I've seen that announced also by the CD at the pilot's meeting) And, if it touches down in this huge LZ, rolls a few feet, and goes outside in the tall grass, tipping over, (lets say) considering the fact that it isn't a centered maneuver, what then? Believe me, I'm not arguing; just getting a feel for some of the answers to these oft-seen scenarios. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker To: Discussion List Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Cut and pasted from the AMA website this morning: Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the landing zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case shall exceed 30 meters. Landing is not a centered maneuver and there is no downgrade for displacement of the touchdown point left or right from center as long as the landing is in the landing zone. If the touchdown is within the runway but not in the landing zone it should be downgraded proportionate to the distance outside the landing zone. The Contest Director may designate any landing zone appropriate to the field if safety considerations dictate. If the landing zone is anything other than standard it should be thoroughly discussed with the pilots and judges before flying is started and no downgrade shall be applied due to the touchdown in the non-standard landing zone. Emphasis added by me. This of course for AMA classes. JLK ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: geobet4 at verizon.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:15:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnfuqua at embarqmail.com Mon Mar 2 08:11:30 2009 From: johnfuqua at embarqmail.com (John Fuqua) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 17:11:30 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs References: Message-ID: <5009EACEF42246E48FBA0122F668F3B8@JohnFuqua> Someone tell me again why we judge 2 NON AEROBATIC manuevers. If they were aerobatic the FAA would make all airline passengers wear parachutes. Why do we beat ourselves up over these, the latest discussion of landing zone as an example. Take off, have some fun, land and get out of the way for the next guy. F3A finally got is right. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dkrev at shaw.ca Mon Mar 2 08:12:31 2009 From: dkrev at shaw.ca (Dave Reaville) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 17:12:31 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Louver slotted spinner In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Heavy pilots? You saying I put on weight! :-) No just down for a visit, see some shows & win big at the tables.... (which is double speak for the ongoing paycheck seperation procedure) :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: Rex Date: Monday, March 2, 2009 9:08 am Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Louver slotted spinner To: NSRCA-discussion > > Vegas!? First, it's Chris Moon! Now you?! > What's going on? > > Do you heavy jockeys know something the rest of us don't, or > > is it the other way around? lol > > > > Rex > > > > Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 08:58:09 -0800 > From: dkrev at shaw.ca > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Louver slotted spinner > > > Hi Rex > > I guess I should read the rest of my emails before > responding.... looks like you covered it! Back to gambling with > my kid's inheritance... :-) Vegas Baby! > > Dave > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rex > Date: Monday, March 2, 2009 8:52 am > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Louver slotted spinner > To: NSRCA-discussion > > > > > Exactly right! > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 08:45:06 -0800 > > From: dkrev at shaw.ca > > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Louver slotted spinner > > > > > > Hi John > > > > I do beleive it was Rex Lesher that brought that slotted > spinner > > idea to the K-Factor. I know we talked about it several years > > ago and it involve a slit on each side of the spinner that was > > then moulded inward to provide cooling to the motor. > > > > What say you Rex? :-) > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: John Konneker > > Date: Monday, March 2, 2009 7:36 am > > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Louver slotted spinner > > To: Discussion List > > > > > > > > Sometime during 2006 there was an article in a K-Factor > > showing > > > how someone slotted a spinner > > > > > > to allow cooling air to enter the spinner then exit a > > lightened > > > backplate. > > > Anyone remember which issue it was? > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > JLK > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billglaze at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 2 08:13:43 2009 From: billglaze at bellsouth.net (billglaze) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 17:13:43 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst><7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER> <913512.83354.qm@web36704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00de01c99b5a$3b7ba290$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Roger that, Bob; along the same lines, I still haven't been privileged enough to witness a Double Weedon; I understand and agree my aeronautical schooling has been sadly lacking........................ Bill Glaze ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Kane To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:09 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions . . . . .And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. I've come close by performing an ugly 1/2 barrel roll first . . . . . ;) Bob Kane getterflash at yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: George W.Kennie To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 2, 2009 11:15:23 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geobet4 at verizon.net Mon Mar 2 08:22:59 2009 From: geobet4 at verizon.net (George W.Kennie) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 17:22:59 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> <7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER> Message-ID: <87C8916B96DB4606A04580E55D82D59F@CYBERPOWER> # 2 screw-up !!!! It's not "roll to a stop within 15 meters", it's 10 meters, but the "stop" is still the elementle crux, I think. If it says " no downgrade if the model rolls to a stop within 10 meters" doesn't that infer that if the model continues to roll beyond that distance it becomews a downgradeable offence (1/2pt +)? And if it's not a centered maneuver, where'd we come up with the axiom " for maximum landing points, touchdown should occur < 2 meters either side of the centerline"? Is that FAI ? Did I make it up? Am I totally losing it? How the heck is anyone expected to keep all this stuff straight? ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker To: Discussion List Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Cut and pasted from the AMA website this morning: Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the landing zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case shall exceed 30 meters. Landing is not a centered maneuver and there is no downgrade for displacement of the touchdown point left or right from center as long as the landing is in the landing zone. If the touchdown is within the runway but not in the landing zone it should be downgraded proportionate to the distance outside the landing zone. The Contest Director may designate any landing zone appropriate to the field if safety considerations dictate. If the landing zone is anything other than standard it should be thoroughly discussed with the pilots and judges before flying is started and no downgrade shall be applied due to the touchdown in the non-standard landing zone. Emphasis added by me. This of course for AMA classes. JLK ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: geobet4 at verizon.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:15:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billglaze at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 2 08:23:42 2009 From: billglaze at bellsouth.net (billglaze) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 17:23:42 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs References: <5009EACEF42246E48FBA0122F668F3B8@JohnFuqua> Message-ID: <00f701c99b5b$a0dbfa30$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> In large part, I agree. However, when I, (or anybody else) is in the judging chair, it is up to that person to be in a position that inasmuch as possible, all doubt about how to score a figure, is removed. All I am trying to do is to remove as much doubt as possible; it's possible that some others observing this discourse may also profit from it. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: John Fuqua To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:11 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs Someone tell me again why we judge 2 NON AEROBATIC manuevers. If they were aerobatic the FAA would make all airline passengers wear parachutes. Why do we beat ourselves up over these, the latest discussion of landing zone as an example. Take off, have some fun, land and get out of the way for the next guy. F3A finally got is right. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnhiller at earthlink.net Mon Mar 2 08:31:33 2009 From: jnhiller at earthlink.net (J N Hiller) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 17:31:33 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions In-Reply-To: <7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER> Message-ID: Hi George and Bill. (More have posted since I started this but here it is anyway) Here is the first paragraph from AMA RCA-25. Probably not changed since I saved it on 2-3-09. Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. Looks like there is some discrepancy here. We will probably here more on this. "slowed below flying speed AND rolled 10 meters" could be interpreted as a requirement that the speed be below flying speed (subjective) within 10 meters. Thirty years ago flying speed probably meant something but most modern pattern airplanes are capable of flying speed without ground speed if the nose is high enough, unless there is a documented distinction between flying and hovering. Is landing with power greater than idle allowed? How much power can be used to 'drag it in nose high? Most can roll the tail wheel on before the mains, which commits the airplane to "Below Flying Speed", at least without a bump / bounce. "10 meters OR comes to a stop" would indicate that the landing is complete after the 10-meter roll out without having to come to a stop. If a stop were required I would expect "AND" to be used. I have no opinion on this. I just try to get a decent landing near the center and accept whatever score is given. You should see some of the landings at a soaring contest where the pilot if focused on maximum landing score. Got to go, be back later. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 8:15 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter . We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vanputte at cox.net Mon Mar 2 08:32:16 2009 From: vanputte at cox.net (Ron Van Putte) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 17:32:16 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: <00f701c99b5b$a0dbfa30$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> References: <5009EACEF42246E48FBA0122F668F3B8@JohnFuqua> <00f701c99b5b$a0dbfa30$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Message-ID: <1879B763-90EB-4D7D-8292-32B4850B4A7F@cox.net> John Fuqua's comment was not about how to judge the landing, but why we bother. We spend more time/effort discussing how to judge takeoff and (especially) landing than any other maneuvers except ,perhaps, snaps and spins. Ron On Mar 2, 2009, at 11:23 AM, billglaze wrote: > In large part, I agree. However, when I, (or anybody else) is in > the judging chair, it is up to that person to be in a position that > inasmuch as possible, all doubt about how to score a figure, is > removed. All I am trying to do is to remove as much doubt as > possible; it's possible that some others observing this discourse > may also profit from it. > Bill > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John Fuqua > To: General pattern discussion > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:11 PM > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > Someone tell me again why we judge 2 NON AEROBATIC manuevers. If > they were aerobatic the FAA would make all airline passengers wear > parachutes. Why do we beat ourselves up over these, the latest > discussion of landing zone as an example. > > Take off, have some fun, land and get out of the way for the next guy. > > F3A finally got it right. > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From vanputte at cox.net Mon Mar 2 08:35:27 2009 From: vanputte at cox.net (Ron Van Putte) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 17:35:27 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions In-Reply-To: <00de01c99b5a$3b7ba290$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst><7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER> <913512.83354.qm@web36704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <00de01c99b5a$3b7ba290$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Message-ID: <80522BF2-CC48-4062-9554-3CC7888E7A33@cox.net> I have heard that several pilots have tried to demonstrate the Double Weedon, but you really must go up to the Michigan/Ohio area to see it done by the Master. Ron On Mar 2, 2009, at 11:13 AM, billglaze wrote: > Roger that, Bob; along the same lines, I still haven't been > privileged enough to witness a Double Weedon; I understand and > agree my aeronautical schooling has been sadly > lacking........................ Bill Glaze > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bob Kane > To: General pattern discussion > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:09 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions > > . . . . .And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical > impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. > I think that needs correcting. > > I've come close by performing an ugly 1/2 barrel roll > first . . . . . ;) > > Bob Kane > getterflash at yahoo.com > > > From: George W.Kennie > To: General pattern discussion > Sent: Monday, March 2, 2009 11:15:23 AM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions > > > Bill, > > This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has > responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned > my lesson, here goes. > > In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if > the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial > word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How > many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one > meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly > straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for > a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, > a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" > stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable > offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility > to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just > above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe > somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover > stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. > > If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above > requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a > hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless > and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers > usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the > landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and > would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. > > And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter > and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs > correcting. > > Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and > should be so received. > > G. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: billglaze > To: nsrca- discussion > Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions > > At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: > > I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and > I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. > On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic > zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had > people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost > interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and > it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. > Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls > immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is > the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. > Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states > for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the > same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but > I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been > known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more > knowledgeable brains on the list! > thanks > Bill Glaze > NSRCA 2388 > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. > We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. > SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. > The Professional version does not have this message. > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From jnhiller at earthlink.net Mon Mar 2 08:35:37 2009 From: jnhiller at earthlink.net (J N Hiller) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 17:35:37 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions In-Reply-To: <87C8916B96DB4606A04580E55D82D59F@CYBERPOWER> Message-ID: I here you George! That?s why I find judging harder than flying. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 9:23 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions # 2 screw-up !!!! It's not "roll to a stop within 15 meters", it's 10 meters, but the "stop" is still the elementle crux, I think. If it says " no downgrade if the model rolls to a stop within 10 meters" doesn't that infer that if the model continues to roll beyond that distance it becomews a downgradeable offence (1/2pt +)? And if it's not a centered maneuver, where'd we come up with the axiom " for maximum landing points, touchdown should occur < 2 meters either side of the centerline"? Is that FAI ? Did I make it up? Am I totally losing it? How the heck is anyone expected to keep all this stuff straight? ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker To: Discussion List Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Cut and pasted from the AMA website this morning: Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the landing zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case shall exceed 30 meters. Landing is not a centered maneuver and there is no downgrade for displacement of the touchdown point left or right from center as long as the landing is in the landing zone. If the touchdown is within the runway but not in the landing zone it should be downgraded proportionate to the distance outside the landing zone. The Contest Director may designate any landing zone appropriate to the field if safety considerations dictate. If the landing zone is anything other than standard it should be thoroughly discussed with the pilots and judges before flying is started and no downgrade shall be applied due to the touchdown in the non-standard landing zone. Emphasis added by me. This of course for AMA classes. JLK _____ From: geobet4 at verizon.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:15:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter . We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter . We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billglaze at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 2 08:40:38 2009 From: billglaze at bellsouth.net (billglaze) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 17:40:38 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst><7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER> <87C8916B96DB4606A04580E55D82D59F@CYBERPOWER> Message-ID: <014401c99b5d$fd532c00$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Georgie: Exactly what I've been trying to get at. I admit a rule (about just about anything; look at our Income Tax Rules, 66,000 pages and counting) probably can't cover all eventualities. But, the ones I'm trying to look at here don't come out of thin air. They've happened to me, and, I'll bet, many others. And, if you're sitting there trying to do the right thing.......... the old rationalization (joking, I'm sure) about: "Oh, Hell, give him an 8 and hand over the score sheet" just doesn't cut it. And the business about "not a centered maneuver" and the "2 meters from center" is in there, too. Add to this that at many contests, have no 15 meter lines, the entire mowed portion of the runway being designated the LZ. My head is starting to hurt. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: George W.Kennie To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:22 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions # 2 screw-up !!!! It's not "roll to a stop within 15 meters", it's 10 meters, but the "stop" is still the elementle crux, I think. If it says " no downgrade if the model rolls to a stop within 10 meters" doesn't that infer that if the model continues to roll beyond that distance it becomews a downgradeable offence (1/2pt +)? And if it's not a centered maneuver, where'd we come up with the axiom " for maximum landing points, touchdown should occur < 2 meters either side of the centerline"? Is that FAI ? Did I make it up? Am I totally losing it? How the heck is anyone expected to keep all this stuff straight? ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker To: Discussion List Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Cut and pasted from the AMA website this morning: Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the landing zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case shall exceed 30 meters. Landing is not a centered maneuver and there is no downgrade for displacement of the touchdown point left or right from center as long as the landing is in the landing zone. If the touchdown is within the runway but not in the landing zone it should be downgraded proportionate to the distance outside the landing zone. The Contest Director may designate any landing zone appropriate to the field if safety considerations dictate. If the landing zone is anything other than standard it should be thoroughly discussed with the pilots and judges before flying is started and no downgrade shall be applied due to the touchdown in the non-standard landing zone. Emphasis added by me. This of course for AMA classes. JLK ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: geobet4 at verizon.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:15:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billglaze at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 2 08:47:22 2009 From: billglaze at bellsouth.net (billglaze) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 17:47:22 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs References: <5009EACEF42246E48FBA0122F668F3B8@JohnFuqua><00f701c99b5b$a0dbfa30$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> <1879B763-90EB-4D7D-8292-32B4850B4A7F@cox.net> Message-ID: <014b01c99b5e$e8f57000$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> I understand that, Ron, but it's still in the book, and we, as judges, are therefore responsible for it. Until that situation no longer obtains, I feel that certain situations must be made clearer than I find them. And, apparently I'm not alone in this. The majority of the membership apparently wants judged takeoffs and landings; my opinion about this subject is quite sanguine. Either way is O.K. by me And, I can assure you that, passenger parachutes aside, if I had ever stood a DC-6 or one of the Boeings I once flew on it's nose, the FAA as well as United would have given me a ZERO. Fortunately, never happened. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Van Putte" To: "General pattern discussion" Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > John Fuqua's comment was not about how to judge the landing, but why we > bother. We spend more time/effort discussing how to judge takeoff and > (especially) landing than any other maneuvers except ,perhaps, snaps and > spins. > > Ron > > On Mar 2, 2009, at 11:23 AM, billglaze wrote: > >> In large part, I agree. However, when I, (or anybody else) is in the >> judging chair, it is up to that person to be in a position that inasmuch >> as possible, all doubt about how to score a figure, is removed. All I >> am trying to do is to remove as much doubt as possible; it's possible >> that some others observing this discourse may also profit from it. >> Bill >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: John Fuqua >> To: General pattern discussion >> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:11 PM >> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs >> >> Someone tell me again why we judge 2 NON AEROBATIC manuevers. If they >> were aerobatic the FAA would make all airline passengers wear >> parachutes. Why do we beat ourselves up over these, the latest >> discussion of landing zone as an example. >> >> Take off, have some fun, land and get out of the way for the next guy. >> >> F3A finally got it right. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > From billglaze at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 2 08:48:31 2009 From: billglaze at bellsouth.net (billglaze) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 17:48:31 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst><7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER><913512.83354.qm@web36704.mail.mud.yahoo.com><00de01c99b5a$3b7ba290$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> <80522BF2-CC48-4062-9554-3CC7888E7A33@cox.net> Message-ID: <015e01c99b5f$18857e50$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> After I see it, I'll try it, Ron, but it has to be you talking me through it! Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Van Putte" To: "General pattern discussion" Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:35 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions >I have heard that several pilots have tried to demonstrate the Double >Weedon, but you really must go up to the Michigan/Ohio area to see it done >by the Master. > > Ron > > On Mar 2, 2009, at 11:13 AM, billglaze wrote: > >> Roger that, Bob; along the same lines, I still haven't been privileged >> enough to witness a Double Weedon; I understand and agree my >> aeronautical schooling has been sadly lacking........................ >> Bill Glaze >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Bob Kane >> To: General pattern discussion >> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:09 PM >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions >> >> . . . . .And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical >> impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I >> think that needs correcting. >> >> I've come close by performing an ugly 1/2 barrel roll first . . . . . >> ;) >> >> Bob Kane >> getterflash at yahoo.com >> >> >> From: George W.Kennie >> To: General pattern discussion >> Sent: Monday, March 2, 2009 11:15:23 AM >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions >> >> >> Bill, >> >> This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded >> to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here >> goes. >> >> In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the >> model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is >> STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have >> you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center >> line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the >> runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot >> maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop >> within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a >> downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's >> responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown >> occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but >> maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover >> stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. >> >> If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and >> then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or >> whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the >> pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of >> either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction >> ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the >> part of the scorer. >> >> And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and >> exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. >> >> Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and >> should be so received. >> >> G. >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: billglaze >> To: nsrca- discussion >> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM >> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions >> >> At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: >> >> I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd >> like a question answered that I've had for a long time. >> On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? >> I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me >> "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the >> airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the >> score, is their idea. >> Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately >> into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? >> I've been called for doing so once. >> Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for >> the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same >> altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been >> wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to >> incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable >> brains on the list! >> thanks >> Bill Glaze >> NSRCA 2388 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. >> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. >> SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. >> The Professional version does not have this message. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > From geobet4 at verizon.net Mon Mar 2 09:05:03 2009 From: geobet4 at verizon.net (George W.Kennie) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 18:05:03 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs References: <5009EACEF42246E48FBA0122F668F3B8@JohnFuqua> Message-ID: I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: John Fuqua To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:11 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs Someone tell me again why we judge 2 NON AEROBATIC manuevers. If they were aerobatic the FAA would make all airline passengers wear parachutes. Why do we beat ourselves up over these, the latest discussion of landing zone as an example. Take off, have some fun, land and get out of the way for the next guy. F3A finally got is right. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cjm767driver at hotmail.com Mon Mar 2 09:07:32 2009 From: cjm767driver at hotmail.com (Chris Moon) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 18:07:32 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Louver slotted spinner In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billglaze at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 2 09:10:19 2009 From: billglaze at bellsouth.net (billglaze) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 18:10:19 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs References: <5009EACEF42246E48FBA0122F668F3B8@JohnFuqua> Message-ID: <019e01c99b62$23e60ff0$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> I remember when we were judged on our ability to taxi out down-wind, stop, and turn into the wind for takeoff. And to stop after the landing roll, (no mention of distance required), turn, and taxi in downwind and stop. But, it was a whole different R/C world then! Still fun! It was sure worth having a dependable low speed that the engine could live with! Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: George W.Kennie To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: John Fuqua To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:11 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs Someone tell me again why we judge 2 NON AEROBATIC manuevers. If they were aerobatic the FAA would make all airline passengers wear parachutes. Why do we beat ourselves up over these, the latest discussion of landing zone as an example. Take off, have some fun, land and get out of the way for the next guy. F3A finally got is right. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geobet4 at verizon.net Mon Mar 2 09:11:05 2009 From: geobet4 at verizon.net (George W.Kennie) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 18:11:05 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions References: Message-ID: <7772A276E69846FB8C8CB28D68BE48A7@CYBERPOWER> I was waiting for you Jim. I love ya ! I especially like the way you immediately take me to task when I screw up. I need guys like you to really make me think. Bill says he's not arguing, I always feel like I am. It's just part of my nature and I love my adversaries. How boring things would be if...................... Thanks for you Jim, Georgie ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:35 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions I here you George! That's why I find judging harder than flying. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 9:23 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions # 2 screw-up !!!! It's not "roll to a stop within 15 meters", it's 10 meters, but the "stop" is still the elementle crux, I think. If it says " no downgrade if the model rolls to a stop within 10 meters" doesn't that infer that if the model continues to roll beyond that distance it becomews a downgradeable offence (1/2pt +)? And if it's not a centered maneuver, where'd we come up with the axiom " for maximum landing points, touchdown should occur < 2 meters either side of the centerline"? Is that FAI ? Did I make it up? Am I totally losing it? How the heck is anyone expected to keep all this stuff straight? ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker To: Discussion List Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Cut and pasted from the AMA website this morning: Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the landing zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case shall exceed 30 meters. Landing is not a centered maneuver and there is no downgrade for displacement of the touchdown point left or right from center as long as the landing is in the landing zone. If the touchdown is within the runway but not in the landing zone it should be downgraded proportionate to the distance outside the landing zone. The Contest Director may designate any landing zone appropriate to the field if safety considerations dictate. If the landing zone is anything other than standard it should be thoroughly discussed with the pilots and judges before flying is started and no downgrade shall be applied due to the touchdown in the non-standard landing zone. Emphasis added by me. This of course for AMA classes. JLK ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: geobet4 at verizon.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:15:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geobet4 at verizon.net Mon Mar 2 09:12:15 2009 From: geobet4 at verizon.net (George W.Kennie) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 18:12:15 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst><7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER><913512.83354.qm@web36704.mail.mud.yahoo.com><00de01c99b5a$3b7ba290$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> <80522BF2-CC48-4062-9554-3CC7888E7A33@cox.net> <015e01c99b5f$18857e50$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Message-ID: I want to be the judge ! ----- Original Message ----- From: "billglaze" To: "General pattern discussion" Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:48 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions > After I see it, I'll try it, Ron, but it has to be you talking me through > it! Bill > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ron Van Putte" > To: "General pattern discussion" > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:35 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions > > >>I have heard that several pilots have tried to demonstrate the Double >>Weedon, but you really must go up to the Michigan/Ohio area to see it >>done by the Master. >> >> Ron >> >> On Mar 2, 2009, at 11:13 AM, billglaze wrote: >> >>> Roger that, Bob; along the same lines, I still haven't been privileged >>> enough to witness a Double Weedon; I understand and agree my >>> aeronautical schooling has been sadly lacking........................ >>> Bill Glaze >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Bob Kane >>> To: General pattern discussion >>> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:09 PM >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions >>> >>> . . . . .And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical >>> impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I >>> think that needs correcting. >>> >>> I've come close by performing an ugly 1/2 barrel roll first . . . . . >>> ;) >>> >>> Bob Kane >>> getterflash at yahoo.com >>> >>> >>> From: George W.Kennie >>> To: General pattern discussion >>> Sent: Monday, March 2, 2009 11:15:23 AM >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions >>> >>> >>> Bill, >>> >>> This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded >>> to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, >>> here goes. >>> >>> In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the >>> model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is >>> STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have >>> you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center >>> line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the >>> runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little >>> hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the >>> "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes >>> a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's >>> responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown >>> occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but >>> maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover >>> stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. >>> >>> If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements >>> and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or >>> whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the >>> pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result >>> of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment >>> malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary >>> judgement on the part of the scorer. >>> >>> And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and >>> exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. >>> >>> Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and >>> should be so received. >>> >>> G. >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: billglaze >>> To: nsrca- discussion >>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM >>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions >>> >>> At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: >>> >>> I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd >>> like a question answered that I've had for a long time. >>> On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? >>> I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell >>> me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the >>> airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect >>> the score, is their idea. >>> Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls >>> immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the >>> landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. >>> Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for >>> the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same >>> altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been >>> wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to >>> incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more >>> knowledgeable brains on the list! >>> thanks >>> Bill Glaze >>> NSRCA 2388 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>> I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. >>> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. >>> SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. >>> The Professional version does not have this message. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message From cjm767driver at hotmail.com Mon Mar 2 09:14:17 2009 From: cjm767driver at hotmail.com (Chris Moon) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 18:14:17 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions In-Reply-To: <87C8916B96DB4606A04580E55D82D59F@CYBERPOWER> References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> <7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER> <87C8916B96DB4606A04580E55D82D59F@CYBERPOWER> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billglaze at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 2 09:19:48 2009 From: billglaze at bellsouth.net (billglaze) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 18:19:48 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst><7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER><913512.83354.qm@web36704.mail.mud.yahoo.com><00de01c99b5a$3b7ba290$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst><80522BF2-CC48-4062-9554-3CC7888E7A33@cox.net><015e01c99b5f$18857e50$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Message-ID: <01b901c99b63$7745cae0$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Not you, Georgie: I've seen you judge, and you're too tough! I need a Santa Claus anymore! Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "George W.Kennie" To: "General pattern discussion" Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 1:11 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions >I want to be the judge ! > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "billglaze" > To: "General pattern discussion" > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:48 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions > > >> After I see it, I'll try it, Ron, but it has to be you talking me through >> it! Bill >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ron Van Putte" >> To: "General pattern discussion" >> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:35 PM >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions >> >> >>>I have heard that several pilots have tried to demonstrate the Double >>>Weedon, but you really must go up to the Michigan/Ohio area to see it >>>done by the Master. >>> >>> Ron >>> >>> On Mar 2, 2009, at 11:13 AM, billglaze wrote: >>> >>>> Roger that, Bob; along the same lines, I still haven't been privileged >>>> enough to witness a Double Weedon; I understand and agree my >>>> aeronautical schooling has been sadly lacking........................ >>>> Bill Glaze >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Bob Kane >>>> To: General pattern discussion >>>> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:09 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions >>>> >>>> . . . . .And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical >>>> impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I >>>> think that needs correcting. >>>> >>>> I've come close by performing an ugly 1/2 barrel roll first . . . . . >>>> ;) >>>> >>>> Bob Kane >>>> getterflash at yahoo.com >>>> >>>> >>>> From: George W.Kennie >>>> To: General pattern discussion >>>> Sent: Monday, March 2, 2009 11:15:23 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions >>>> >>>> >>>> Bill, >>>> >>>> This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has >>>> responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my >>>> lesson, here goes. >>>> >>>> In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the >>>> model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is >>>> STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times >>>> have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the >>>> center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the >>>> center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 >>>> feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. >>>> In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear >>>> that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe >>>> it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed >>>> so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the >>>> rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think >>>> this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. >>>> >>>> If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements >>>> and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock >>>> or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the >>>> pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result >>>> of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment >>>> malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary >>>> judgement on the part of the scorer. >>>> >>>> And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and >>>> exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. >>>> >>>> Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and >>>> should be so received. >>>> >>>> G. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: billglaze >>>> To: nsrca- discussion >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM >>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions >>>> >>>> At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: >>>> >>>> I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd >>>> like a question answered that I've had for a long time. >>>> On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic >>>> zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people >>>> tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in >>>> the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't >>>> affect the score, is their idea. >>>> Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls >>>> immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the >>>> landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. >>>> Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for >>>> the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same >>>> altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been >>>> wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to >>>> incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more >>>> knowledgeable brains on the list! >>>> thanks >>>> Bill Glaze >>>> NSRCA 2388 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>>> I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. >>>> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. >>>> SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. >>>> The Professional version does not have this message. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > -- > I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. > We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. > SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. > Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len > > The Professional version does not have this message > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > From bob at toprudder.com Mon Mar 2 09:28:29 2009 From: bob at toprudder.com (Bob Richards) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 18:28:29 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <790974.52739.qm@web1107.biz.mail.sk1.yahoo.com> I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to?dangerous situations when they would probably have been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation. ? And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had flown pattern for several years. ? I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC. ? JM2CW ? Bob R. --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. ? All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint. ? G.? ? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billglaze at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 2 09:30:51 2009 From: billglaze at bellsouth.net (billglaze) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 18:30:51 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> <7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER> <87C8916B96DB4606A04580E55D82D59F@CYBERPOWER> Message-ID: <01ce01c99b65$01982480$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> O.K. Chris, then: If the airplane touches down in the last 2 meters of the Liz, and the LZ is the entire mowed portion of the field, (as is commonly the case in local contests,) and rolls those 2 meters, leaves the LZ, (remember, it has TOUCHED DOWN IN THE LZ) AND LEAVES THE LZ, noses over, then what? This happened at one of our D2 contests, (in fact, I believe you were there, as I recall, but certainly not judging this round.) I zeroed it, and got disagreed with. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Moon To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 1:14 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Ok, 1. to get possible max points, the plane must touch down in the landing zone 2. once the plane is below flying speed and has traveled 10 meters on the ground, judges close your eyes...you are done. 3. there is no inference that you MUST travel 10 meters nor stop within 10 meters, it says there is no downgrade if you travel less than 10 meters. If it rolls 11 meters then explodes, it is no downgrade. If it stops at 9 meters and then the wind blows it over, again no downgrade Rule book paste: The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. Chris George W.Kennie wrote: # 2 screw-up !!!! It's not "roll to a stop within 15 meters", it's 10 meters, but the "stop" is still the elementle crux, I think. If it says " no downgrade if the model rolls to a stop within 10 meters" doesn't that infer that if the model continues to roll beyond that distance it becomews a downgradeable offence (1/2pt +)? And if it's not a centered maneuver, where'd we come up with the axiom " for maximum landing points, touchdown should occur < 2 meters either side of the centerline"? Is that FAI ? Did I make it up? Am I totally losing it? How the heck is anyone expected to keep all this stuff straight? ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker To: Discussion List Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Cut and pasted from the AMA website this morning: Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the landing zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case shall exceed 30 meters. Landing is not a centered maneuver and there is no downgrade for displacement of the touchdown point left or right from center as long as the landing is in the landing zone. If the touchdown is within the runway but not in the landing zone it should be downgraded proportionate to the distance outside the landing zone. The Contest Director may designate any landing zone appropriate to the field if safety considerations dictate. If the landing zone is anything other than standard it should be thoroughly discussed with the pilots and judges before flying is started and no downgrade shall be applied due to the touchdown in the non-standard landing zone. Emphasis added by me. This of course for AMA classes. JLK -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: geobet4 at verizon.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:15:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at toprudder.com Mon Mar 2 09:32:37 2009 From: bob at toprudder.com (Bob Richards) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 18:32:37 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <996628.43122.qm@web1108.biz.mail.sk1.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 3/2/09, Chris Moon wrote: ??? If it rolls 11 meters then explodes, it is no downgrade. But, if one of the pieces becomes airborne again, was it really below flying speed? ;-) ? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cjm767driver at hotmail.com Mon Mar 2 09:37:14 2009 From: cjm767driver at hotmail.com (Chris Moon) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 18:37:14 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions In-Reply-To: <996628.43122.qm@web1108.biz.mail.sk1.yahoo.com> References: <996628.43122.qm@web1108.biz.mail.sk1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billglaze at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 2 09:37:58 2009 From: billglaze at bellsouth.net (billglaze) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 18:37:58 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs References: <790974.52739.qm@web1107.biz.mail.sk1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01e901c99b66$007f6c10$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> A valid argument too, Bob. I remember a severe wind change, of 180 degrees, at Snow Camp, and unwisely didn't want to forego landing points, and damaged my EMC so badly that it took Gerry Dale to repair it. Of course, under the new rules, I would simply have changed directions. Pitiful what greed will make you do! But, there are those who will not have the sense to abort a takeoff, or go around, score or no score. But, even saying that, scoring still undoubtedly contributes to some unsafe conditions. Just my opinion, also. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Richards To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 1:28 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to dangerous situations when they would probably have been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation. And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had flown pattern for several years. I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC. JM2CW Bob R. --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint. G. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cjm767driver at hotmail.com Mon Mar 2 09:49:29 2009 From: cjm767driver at hotmail.com (Chris Moon) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 18:49:29 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions In-Reply-To: <01ce01c99b65$01982480$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> <7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER> <87C8916B96DB4606A04580E55D82D59F@CYBERPOWER> <01ce01c99b65$01982480$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rcmaster199 at aol.com Mon Mar 2 09:56:04 2009 From: rcmaster199 at aol.com (rcmaster199 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 18:56:04 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions In-Reply-To: <80522BF2-CC48-4062-9554-3CC7888E7A33@cox.net> References: <80522BF2-CC48-4062-9554-3CC7888E7A33@cox.net> Message-ID: <8CB697F9346A597-BB0-223@mblk-d49.sysops.aol.com> Hey there's a maneuver we hadn't heard anything about in at least 5 years. But I still prefer the Triple Wooppee myself MattK -----Original Message----- From: Ron Van Putte To: General pattern discussion Sent: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 12:35 pm Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions I have heard that several pilots have tried to demonstrate the Double Weedon, but you really must go up to the Michigan/Ohio area to see it done by the Master. Ron On Mar 2, 2009, at 11:13 AM, billglaze wrote: > Roger that, Bob; along the same lines, I still haven't been > privileged enough to witness a Double Weedon; I understand and > agree my aeronautical schooling has been sadly > lacking........................ Bill Glaze > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bob Kane > To: General pattern discussion > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:09 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions > > . . . . .And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical > impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. > I think that needs correcting. > > I've come close by performing an ugly 1/2 barrel roll > first . . . . . ;) > > Bob Kane > getterflash at yahoo.com > > > From: George W.Kennie > To: General pattern discussion > Sent: Monday, March 2, 2009 11:15:23 AM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions > > > Bill, > > This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has > responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned > my lesson, here goes. > > In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if > the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial > word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How > many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one > meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly > straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for > a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, > a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" > stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable > offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility > to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just > above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe > somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover > stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. > > If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above > requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a > hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless > and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers > usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the > landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and > would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. > > And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter > and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs > correcting. > > Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and > should be so received. > > G. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: billglaze > To: nsrca- discussion > Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions > > At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: > > I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and > I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. > On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic > zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had > people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost > interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and > it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. > Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls > immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is > the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. > Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states > for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the > same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but > I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been > known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more > knowledgeable brains on the list! > thanks > Bill Glaze > NSRCA 2388 > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. > We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. > SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. > The Professional version does not have this message. > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From billglaze at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 2 10:00:22 2009 From: billglaze at bellsouth.net (billglaze) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 19:00:22 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> <7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER> <87C8916B96DB4606A04580E55D82D59F@CYBERPOWER> <01ce01c99b65$01982480$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Message-ID: <001101c99b69$1fa9e8b0$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Chris: Thanks, there are several nuances that are making themselves visible to me. I hope others find this discussion as valuable. And no, I didn't give you a downgrade on your landing; in fact,I believe you got a very good score on the round I judged. I did, however, have to give you a Zero on your Double Weedon; pretty sloppy. And, I don't even know WHAT it is! Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Moon To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 1:49 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill: While they touched down in the landing zone (makes them eligible for maximum points) they did not 1. roll to a stop (nosed over) 2. travel 10 meters below flying speed Was it a zero? That's up to the judge but I would agree with you that it was not eligible for maximum points (scored without downgrade). I can't imagine that the intent of the CD was to give tacit approval for running off the end of the runway and have the pilot expect to receive a possible maximum score - or even a good score. Running off the end shows a lack of control over the model and does not demonstrate superior skills. So...it was you that gave me that zero!!!! LOL :-) Chris billglaze wrote: O.K. Chris, then: If the airplane touches down in the last 2 meters of the Liz, and the LZ is the entire mowed portion of the field, (as is commonly the case in local contests,) and rolls those 2 meters, leaves the LZ, (remember, it has TOUCHED DOWN IN THE LZ) AND LEAVES THE LZ, noses over, then what? This happened at one of our D2 contests, (in fact, I believe you were there, as I recall, but certainly not judging this round.) I zeroed it, and got disagreed with. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Moon To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 1:14 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Ok, 1. to get possible max points, the plane must touch down in the landing zone 2. once the plane is below flying speed and has traveled 10 meters on the ground, judges close your eyes...you are done. 3. there is no inference that you MUST travel 10 meters nor stop within 10 meters, it says there is no downgrade if you travel less than 10 meters. If it rolls 11 meters then explodes, it is no downgrade. If it stops at 9 meters and then the wind blows it over, again no downgrade Rule book paste: The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. Chris George W.Kennie wrote: # 2 screw-up !!!! It's not "roll to a stop within 15 meters", it's 10 meters, but the "stop" is still the elementle crux, I think. If it says " no downgrade if the model rolls to a stop within 10 meters" doesn't that infer that if the model continues to roll beyond that distance it becomews a downgradeable offence (1/2pt +)? And if it's not a centered maneuver, where'd we come up with the axiom " for maximum landing points, touchdown should occur < 2 meters either side of the centerline"? Is that FAI ? Did I make it up? Am I totally losing it? How the heck is anyone expected to keep all this stuff straight? ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker To: Discussion List Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Cut and pasted from the AMA website this morning: Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the landing zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case shall exceed 30 meters. Landing is not a centered maneuver and there is no downgrade for displacement of the touchdown point left or right from center as long as the landing is in the landing zone. If the touchdown is within the runway but not in the landing zone it should be downgraded proportionate to the distance outside the landing zone. The Contest Director may designate any landing zone appropriate to the field if safety considerations dictate. If the landing zone is anything other than standard it should be thoroughly discussed with the pilots and judges before flying is started and no downgrade shall be applied due to the touchdown in the non-standard landing zone. Emphasis added by me. This of course for AMA classes. JLK ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: geobet4 at verizon.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:15:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 -------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. 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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.5/1979 - Release Date: 03/01/09 17:46:00 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billglaze at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 2 10:02:19 2009 From: billglaze at bellsouth.net (billglaze) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 19:02:19 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions References: <80522BF2-CC48-4062-9554-3CC7888E7A33@cox.net> <8CB697F9346A597-BB0-223@mblk-d49.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <001601c99b69$65ec34e0$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> There's always my favorite: The Immelflounder! Bill BTW: Are you going to be able to make it to any of our stuff here in D2? Myrtle Beach? The judging clinic? Anything that you know of? Bill Glaze ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 1:55 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions > Hey there's a maneuver we hadn't heard anything about in at least 5 years. > > But I still prefer the Triple Wooppee myself > > MattK > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Van Putte > To: General pattern discussion > Sent: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 12:35 pm > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions > > I have heard that several pilots have tried to demonstrate the Double > Weedon, but you really must go up to the Michigan/Ohio area to see it > done by the Master. > > Ron > > On Mar 2, 2009, at 11:13 AM, billglaze wrote: > >> Roger that, Bob; along the same lines, I still haven't been >> privileged enough to witness a Double Weedon; I understand and >> agree my aeronautical schooling has been sadly >> lacking........................ Bill Glaze >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Bob Kane >> To: General pattern discussion >> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:09 PM >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions >> >> . . . . .And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical >> impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. >> I think that needs correcting. >> >> I've come close by performing an ugly 1/2 barrel roll >> first . . . . . ;) >> >> Bob Kane >> getterflash at yahoo.com >> >> >> From: George W.Kennie >> To: General pattern discussion >> Sent: Monday, March 2, 2009 11:15:23 AM >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions >> >> >> Bill, >> >> This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has >> responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned >> my lesson, here goes. >> >> In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if >> the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial >> word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How >> many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one >> meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly >> straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for >> a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, >> a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" >> stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable >> offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility >> to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just >> above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe >> somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover >> stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. >> >> If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above >> requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a >> hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless >> and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers >> usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the >> landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and >> would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. >> >> And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter >> and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs >> correcting. >> >> Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and >> should be so received. >> >> G. >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: billglaze >> To: nsrca- discussion >> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM >> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions >> >> At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: >> >> I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and >> I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. >> On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic >> zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had >> people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost >> interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and >> it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. >> Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls >> immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is >> the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. >> Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states >> for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the >> same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but >> I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been >> known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more >> knowledgeable brains on the list! >> thanks >> Bill Glaze >> NSRCA 2388 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. >> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. >> SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. >> The Professional version does not have this message. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > From trexlesh at msn.com Mon Mar 2 10:21:14 2009 From: trexlesh at msn.com (Rex) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 19:21:14 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Louver slotted spinner In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's good to hear from you Chris! You survived! Rex Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 13:07:24 -0500 From: cjm767driver at hotmail.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Louver slotted spinner Rex. You guys have it figured it out that it's best to say away. We have spent too many hours at high altitudes and low oxygen levels to have figured it out yet!! Chris Rex wrote: Vegas!? First, it's Chris Moon! Now you?! What's going on? Do you heavy jockeys know something the rest of us don't, or is it the other way around? lol Rex Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 08:58:09 -0800 From: dkrev at shaw.ca To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Louver slotted spinner Hi Rex I guess I should read the rest of my emails before responding.... looks like you covered it! Back to gambling with my kid's inheritance... :-) Vegas Baby! Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Rex Date: Monday, March 2, 2009 8:52 am Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Louver slotted spinner To: NSRCA-discussion > > Exactly right! > > > > Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 08:45:06 -0800 > From: dkrev at shaw.ca > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Louver slotted spinner > > > Hi John > > I do beleive it was Rex Lesher that brought that slotted spinner > idea to the K-Factor. I know we talked about it several years > ago and it involve a slit on each side of the spinner that was > then moulded inward to provide cooling to the motor. > > What say you Rex? :-) > > Dave > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John Konneker > Date: Monday, March 2, 2009 7:36 am > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Louver slotted spinner > To: Discussion List > > > > > Sometime during 2006 there was an article in a K-Factor > showing > > how someone slotted a spinner > > > > to allow cooling air to enter the spinner then exit a > lightened > > backplate. > > Anyone remember which issue it was? > > > > Thanks! > > > > JLK > > _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rcmaster199 at aol.com Mon Mar 2 10:28:29 2009 From: rcmaster199 at aol.com (rcmaster199 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 19:28:29 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009: Two 2/2 reversed In-Reply-To: <024701c99aed$e12a1d10$a37e5730$@com> References: <024701c99aed$e12a1d10$a37e5730$@com> Message-ID: <8CB69838E9D73A5-BB0-452@mblk-d49.sysops.aol.com> Keith, I'm not certain I got your meaning in your last sentence of the long paragraph. Anyway, the maneuver is straight forward for those who are still uncertain: enter downwind, half roll to inverted hold until short distance before center half roll to upright (same roll direction as first roll element).... as wings get horizontal, make sure you are at center immediately start the next half roll in the opposite direction hold the inverted half roll to upright (same roll direction as third roll element).... Instant model reaches horizontal again, geometry is finished....don't forget the S&L after to make the maneuver complete Downgrades as shown in the Wallace PPP MattK -----Original Message----- From: Keith Black To: 'General pattern discussion' Sent: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 11:18 pm Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009: Two 2/2 reversed This will make centering the maneuver more difficult (since you can't draw the line out to compensate for getting there early), however, I think it should make the maneuver easier to fit in the box. With a good tail wind inserting three pauses with four unrushed half rolls eats up the box REAL quickly. This allows us to fly two 2/2 rolls on each side of center going all the way to center to complete the 2 of 2. I'm anxious to give this a try. Keith -----Original Message----- From: nsrc a-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of rcmaster199 at aol.com Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 5:33 PM To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org; glen59shep at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009: Two 2/2 reversed Reversal is immediate. Point rolls require hesitation Immediate reversal means as soon as model's wing reach horizontal, model needs to start the opposite roll. There are situations in maneuvers where opposite rolling elements are present (Reverse Point Roll, Reverse Knife Edge,etc., for example) where reversal MUST NOT happen immediately because a hesitation must be flown of some duration. But in TWO, 2/2 Rolls Opposite, the description requires 2 individual and complete 2/2 rolls to be done, in opposite directions. This follows established precedent (first done in F3A assymetric rolling maneuvers) where two different rolls were required in opposite directions. I am pretty sure F3A folks remember the 1 1/2 Snap. 4/8 Roll opposite they flew about 6 or 7 years ago. It was the first such maneuver introduced into Pattern MattK -----Original Message----- From: Scott Smith To: glen59shep at yahoo.com; 'General pattern discussion' Sent: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 4:15 pm Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009: Two 2/2 reversed Look a little further down: Two of Two Point Rolls Reversed ? From level upright or inverted flight, model performs one-ha lf (1/2) roll to level inverted/upright flight, hesitates, performs another one-half (1/2) roll in the same direction to level upright/inverted flight. Immediately the model performs one-half (1/2) roll to level inverted/upright fli ght in the opposite direction to the 1st two half rolls, hesitates, performs another one-half (1/2) roll in the same direction to level upright/inverted flight. From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Glen Shepherd Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:06 PM To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009: Two 2/2 reversed I checked the RCA and I didn't see anything for Two (2) , 2/2 Reversed. I used the NSRCA link to the RCA 2009-2010 RCA-32: " Two (2), Two of Four (2/4pt) Point Rolls Reversed: From inverted flight. Model rolls through 180 degrees, hesitating at each 90 degree point. Then rolls through 180 degrees in the opposite direction hesitating at each 90 degree point. At each hesitation wings are parallel or vertical to the horizon. Center is middle of upright flight. Downgrades: 1. One-quarter rolls more or less than 90 degrees 2. Model does not hesitate after each one-quarter roll 3. Roll rate not constant 4. Changes in altitude 5. Ch anges in heading Two point (2/2pt) roll ? slow roll reversed: Model performs a two point (2/2pt) roll, immediately performs a slow roll in the opposite direction. See descriptions of two point roll and slow roll for requirements and downgrades for all elements except centering. Roll rates need not be the same for the two point (2/2pt) and the slow roll. Downgrades: 1. Centering. The center of the maneuver is determined as the middle of combined roll elements. Center is determined by the midpoint between the start of the two point (2/2pt) roll and finish of the slow roll. 2. Roll reversal not immediate. Glen Shapherd NSRCA 3017 _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From geobet4 at verizon.net Mon Mar 2 11:01:18 2009 From: geobet4 at verizon.net (George W.Kennie) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 20:01:18 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst><7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER><913512.83354.qm@web36704.mail.mud.yahoo.com><00de01c99b5a$3b7ba290$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst><80522BF2-CC48-4062-9554-3CC7888E7A33@cox.net><015e01c99b5f$18857e50$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> <01b901c99b63$7745cae0$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Message-ID: That's funny Bill, Ron Lockhart looked over my shoulder and watched my scores and declared me way too lenient. I think maybe my bark is worse........................... ----- Original Message ----- From: "billglaze" To: "General pattern discussion" Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 1:19 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions > Not you, Georgie: I've seen you judge, and you're too tough! I need a > Santa Claus anymore! Bill > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "George W.Kennie" > To: "General pattern discussion" > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 1:11 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions > > >>I want to be the judge ! >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "billglaze" >> To: "General pattern discussion" >> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:48 PM >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions >> >> >>> After I see it, I'll try it, Ron, but it has to be you talking me >>> through it! Bill >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Ron Van Putte" >>> To: "General pattern discussion" >>> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:35 PM >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions >>> >>> >>>>I have heard that several pilots have tried to demonstrate the Double >>>>Weedon, but you really must go up to the Michigan/Ohio area to see it >>>>done by the Master. >>>> >>>> Ron >>>> >>>> On Mar 2, 2009, at 11:13 AM, billglaze wrote: >>>> >>>>> Roger that, Bob; along the same lines, I still haven't been >>>>> privileged enough to witness a Double Weedon; I understand and agree >>>>> my aeronautical schooling has been sadly >>>>> lacking........................ Bill Glaze >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Bob Kane >>>>> To: General pattern discussion >>>>> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:09 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions >>>>> >>>>> . . . . .And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical >>>>> impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I >>>>> think that needs correcting. >>>>> >>>>> I've come close by performing an ugly 1/2 barrel roll first . . . . >>>>> . ;) >>>>> >>>>> Bob Kane >>>>> getterflash at yahoo.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: George W.Kennie >>>>> To: General pattern discussion >>>>> Sent: Monday, March 2, 2009 11:15:23 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Bill, >>>>> >>>>> This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has >>>>> responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my >>>>> lesson, here goes. >>>>> >>>>> In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the >>>>> model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word >>>>> is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times >>>>> have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the >>>>> center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the >>>>> center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 >>>>> feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful >>>>> landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it >>>>> would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to >>>>> me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the >>>>> approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed >>>>> controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me >>>>> on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the >>>>> 15 meter rollout. >>>>> >>>>> If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements >>>>> and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock >>>>> or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond >>>>> the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a >>>>> result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or >>>>> equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require >>>>> discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. >>>>> >>>>> And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter >>>>> and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs >>>>> correcting. >>>>> >>>>> Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and >>>>> should be so received. >>>>> >>>>> G. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: billglaze >>>>> To: nsrca- discussion >>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM >>>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions >>>>> >>>>> At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: >>>>> >>>>> I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd >>>>> like a question answered that I've had for a long time. >>>>> On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic >>>>> zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had >>>>> people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost >>>>> interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it >>>>> doesn't affect the score, is their idea. >>>>> Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls >>>>> immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the >>>>> landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. >>>>> Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for >>>>> the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same >>>>> altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been >>>>> wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to >>>>> incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more >>>>> knowledgeable brains on the list! >>>>> thanks >>>>> Bill Glaze >>>>> NSRCA 2388 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>>>> I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. >>>>> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. >>>>> SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. >>>>> The Professional version does not have this message. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> >> -- >> I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. >> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. >> SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. >> Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len >> >> The Professional version does not have this message >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message From jnhiller at earthlink.net Mon Mar 2 11:02:19 2009 From: jnhiller at earthlink.net (J N Hiller) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 20:02:19 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm back George. As much as I like getting 10's when scored landing are waved, even if they are in the weeds I agree they should be scored, especially in a significant crosswind. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:05 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: John Fuqua To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:11 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs Someone tell me again why we judge 2 NON AEROBATIC manuevers. If they were aerobatic the FAA would make all airline passengers wear parachutes. Why do we beat ourselves up over these, the latest discussion of landing zone as an example. Take off, have some fun, land and get out of the way for the next guy. F3A finally got is right. _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter . We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnhiller at earthlink.net Mon Mar 2 11:08:47 2009 From: jnhiller at earthlink.net (J N Hiller) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 20:08:47 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions In-Reply-To: <7772A276E69846FB8C8CB28D68BE48A7@CYBERPOWER> Message-ID: Thanks George I don't mean to be offensive. I just pick at the rules in an effort to enlighten myself and often disapprove of specific details. Most of the time I am happy to be down in one piece. I hate working on airplanes at the field, let alone between rounds. The landing issue probably needs to be includes in the next rules change proposal. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:11 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions I was waiting for you Jim. I love ya ! I especially like the way you immediately take me to task when I screw up. I need guys like you to really make me think. Bill says he's not arguing, I always feel like I am. It's just part of my nature and I love my adversaries. How boring things would be if...................... Thanks for you Jim, Georgie ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:35 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions I here you George! That?s why I find judging harder than flying. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 9:23 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions # 2 screw-up !!!! It's not "roll to a stop within 15 meters", it's 10 meters, but the "stop" is still the elementle crux, I think. If it says " no downgrade if the model rolls to a stop within 10 meters" doesn't that infer that if the model continues to roll beyond that distance it becomews a downgradeable offence (1/2pt +)? And if it's not a centered maneuver, where'd we come up with the axiom " for maximum landing points, touchdown should occur < 2 meters either side of the centerline"? Is that FAI ? Did I make it up? Am I totally losing it? How the heck is anyone expected to keep all this stuff straight? ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker To: Discussion List Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Cut and pasted from the AMA website this morning: Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the landing zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case shall exceed 30 meters. Landing is not a centered maneuver and there is no downgrade for displacement of the touchdown point left or right from center as long as the landing is in the landing zone. If the touchdown is within the runway but not in the landing zone it should be downgraded proportionate to the distance outside the landing zone. The Contest Director may designate any landing zone appropriate to the field if safety considerations dictate. If the landing zone is anything other than standard it should be thoroughly discussed with the pilots and judges before flying is started and no downgrade shall be applied due to the touchdown in the non-standard landing zone. Emphasis added by me. This of course for AMA classes. JLK _____ From: geobet4 at verizon.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:15:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter . We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter . We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnhiller at earthlink.net Mon Mar 2 11:13:53 2009 From: jnhiller at earthlink.net (J N Hiller) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 20:13:53 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: <790974.52739.qm@web1107.biz.mail.sk1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: You make a good argument for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have aborted landings more than once. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Bob Richards Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to dangerous situations when they would probably have been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation. And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had flown pattern for several years. I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC. JM2CW Bob R. --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint. G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geobet4 at verizon.net Mon Mar 2 11:14:10 2009 From: geobet4 at verizon.net (George W.Kennie) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 20:14:10 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions References: Message-ID: Jim, I finally see the light. I've been too focused on the line in the PPP which is incomplete. Thinking that the word "stop" was the crucial point it now becomes clear that the emphasis is really meant to be focused on the word "or", and understanding that makes it clear that,like Chris says, after the 10 meter roll it's fini ! But my head is still fighting me. What if the aircraft at no time slows below flying speed, comes in and makes a LZ touchdown and proceeds to roll for 100 feet without becoming airborne or flipping over? Clarification? Jim? Chris? anybody? G. ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:31 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Hi George and Bill. (More have posted since I started this but here it is anyway) Here is the first paragraph from AMA RCA-25. Probably not changed since I saved it on 2-3-09. Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. Looks like there is some discrepancy here. We will probably here more on this. "slowed below flying speed AND rolled 10 meters" could be interpreted as a requirement that the speed be below flying speed (subjective) within 10 meters. Thirty years ago flying speed probably meant something but most modern pattern airplanes are capable of flying speed without ground speed if the nose is high enough, unless there is a documented distinction between flying and hovering. Is landing with power greater than idle allowed? How much power can be used to 'drag it in nose high? Most can roll the tail wheel on before the mains, which commits the airplane to "Below Flying Speed", at least without a bump / bounce. "10 meters OR comes to a stop" would indicate that the landing is complete after the 10-meter roll out without having to come to a stop. If a stop were required I would expect "AND" to be used. I have no opinion on this. I just try to get a decent landing near the center and accept whatever score is given. You should see some of the landings at a soaring contest where the pilot if focused on maximum landing score. Got to go, be back later. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 8:15 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnhiller at earthlink.net Mon Mar 2 11:28:05 2009 From: jnhiller at earthlink.net (J N Hiller) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 20:28:05 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That's the issue I was trying to open. "Flying Speed" = What? Judge perception I guess! Call it like you see it until it's more defined or dropped. One could always ask for a clarification during the pilot's and or judge's meeting. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:14 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Jim, I finally see the light. I've been too focused on the line in the PPP which is incomplete. Thinking that the word "stop" was the crucial point it now becomes clear that the emphasis is really meant to be focused on the word "or", and understanding that makes it clear that,like Chris says, after the 10 meter roll it's fini ! But my head is still fighting me. What if the aircraft at no time slows below flying speed, comes in and makes a LZ touchdown and proceeds to roll for 100 feet without becoming airborne or flipping over? Clarification? Jim? Chris? anybody? G. ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:31 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Hi George and Bill. (More have posted since I started this but here it is anyway) Here is the first paragraph from AMA RCA-25. Probably not changed since I saved it on 2-3-09. Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. Looks like there is some discrepancy here. We will probably here more on this. "slowed below flying speed AND rolled 10 meters" could be interpreted as a requirement that the speed be below flying speed (subjective) within 10 meters. Thirty years ago flying speed probably meant something but most modern pattern airplanes are capable of flying speed without ground speed if the nose is high enough, unless there is a documented distinction between flying and hovering. Is landing with power greater than idle allowed? How much power can be used to 'drag it in nose high? Most can roll the tail wheel on before the mains, which commits the airplane to "Below Flying Speed", at least without a bump / bounce. "10 meters OR comes to a stop" would indicate that the landing is complete after the 10-meter roll out without having to come to a stop. If a stop were required I would expect "AND" to be used. I have no opinion on this. I just try to get a decent landing near the center and accept whatever score is given. You should see some of the landings at a soaring contest where the pilot if focused on maximum landing score. Got to go, be back later. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 8:15 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter . We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jaqfly at prodigy.net Mon Mar 2 12:16:06 2009 From: jaqfly at prodigy.net (Jim Quinn) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 21:16:06 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> <7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER> <87C8916B96DB4606A04580E55D82D59F@CYBERPOWER> Message-ID: <479298.45457.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> If you're rolling on the pavement at the Nats or on the grass at the Black Dirt's runway there is a huge difference in the roll out. I say just follow the rule. Jim Quinn ________________________________ From: George W.Kennie To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 2, 2009 12:22:40 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions # 2 screw-up !!!!?? It's not "roll to a stop within 15 meters",? it's 10 meters, but the "stop" is still the elementle crux, I think.? If it says " no downgrade if the model rolls to a stop within 10 meters"? doesn't that infer that if the model continues to roll beyond that distance it becomews a downgradeable offence (1/2pt +)? And if it's not a centered maneuver, where'd we come up with the axiom? " for maximum landing points, touchdown should occur < 2 meters either side of the centerline"?? Is that FAI ??Did I make it up? Am I totally losing it? How the heck is anyone expected to keep all this stuff straight? ? ? ? ? ? ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker To: Discussion List Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Cut and pasted from the AMA website this morning: Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the landing zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case shall exceed 30 meters. Landing is not a centered maneuver and there is no downgrade for displacement of the touchdown point left or right from center as long as the landing is in the landing zone. If the touchdown is within the runway but not in the landing zone it should be downgraded proportionate to the distance outside the landing zone. The Contest Director may designate any landing zone appropriate to the field if safety considerations dictate. If the landing zone is anything other than standard it should be thoroughly discussed with the pilots and judges before flying is started and no downgrade shall be applied due to the touchdown in the non-standard landing zone. Emphasis added by me.? This of course for AMA classes. JLK ? ________________________________ From: geobet4 at verizon.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:15:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions ? Bill, ? This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that?I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters".?? I think the crucial word is STOP !?? What does this mean to proper execution??? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet?? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. ? If the pilot performs a landing?and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10.? Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. ? And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting.? ? Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. ? G. ? ? ? ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: ? I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero?? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane."? It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea.? Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed?? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S:? A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude.? Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!)? I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also.? Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 ? ________________________________ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ________________________________ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ________________________________ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ________________________________ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billglaze at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 2 12:27:35 2009 From: billglaze at bellsouth.net (billglaze) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 21:27:35 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst><7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER><87C8916B96DB4606A04580E55D82D59F@CYBERPOWER> <479298.45457.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00ab01c99b7d$b16fa0f0$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Jim: That's what we're trying to hash out here; just what is the rule? Some questions abound; Chris straightened out some of the stuff, but it appears from the differences here that a further definition may be required; somebody mentioned next rules cycle. Sounds good to me. Georgie had a good interpretation, looking at the anomalies, which should be, and can be, eliminated, I feel. Chris, (and many others) also have been helpful. BTW: did you get my check? Bill Glaze ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Quinn To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 4:16 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions If you're rolling on the pavement at the Nats or on the grass at the Black Dirt's runway there is a huge difference in the roll out. I say just follow the rule. Jim Quinn ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: George W.Kennie To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 2, 2009 12:22:40 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions # 2 screw-up !!!! It's not "roll to a stop within 15 meters", it's 10 meters, but the "stop" is still the elementle crux, I think. If it says " no downgrade if the model rolls to a stop within 10 meters" doesn't that infer that if the model continues to roll beyond that distance it becomews a downgradeable offence (1/2pt +)? And if it's not a centered maneuver, where'd we come up with the axiom " for maximum landing points, touchdown should occur < 2 meters either side of the centerline"? Is that FAI ? Did I make it up? Am I totally losing it? How the heck is anyone expected to keep all this stuff straight? ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker To: Discussion List Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Cut and pasted from the AMA website this morning: Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the landing zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case shall exceed 30 meters. Landing is not a centered maneuver and there is no downgrade for displacement of the touchdown point left or right from center as long as the landing is in the landing zone. If the touchdown is within the runway but not in the landing zone it should be downgraded proportionate to the distance outside the landing zone. The Contest Director may designate any landing zone appropriate to the field if safety considerations dictate. If the landing zone is anything other than standard it should be thoroughly discussed with the pilots and judges before flying is started and no downgrade shall be applied due to the touchdown in the non-standard landing zone. Emphasis added by me. This of course for AMA classes. JLK ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: geobet4 at verizon.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:15:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. 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URL: From geobet4 at verizon.net Mon Mar 2 12:44:52 2009 From: geobet4 at verizon.net (George W.Kennie) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 21:44:52 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs References: Message-ID: <017FC5857FC14FAC996161C193EDCA03@CYBERPOWER> I think that dropping the scoring of TOs and LGs with the intent of reducing risk will be only minimally effective. There are always going to be individuals who will experience difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many times they go around. I can think of individuals who would include me in the group. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: bob at toprudder.com ; General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs You make a good argument for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have aborted landings more than once. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Bob Richards Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to dangerous situations when they would probably have been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation. And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had flown pattern for several years. I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC. JM2CW Bob R. --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint. G. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rcmaster199 at aol.com Mon Mar 2 12:48:58 2009 From: rcmaster199 at aol.com (rcmaster199 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 21:48:58 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CB69970173B476-B64-378@mblk-d49.sysops.aol.com> Many moons ago, it happened to me too. I'll frame it for youse: Left to right TO, engine idling, last round on Saturday, around 7 PM, in too hot Texas Called TO and advanced throttle Model immediately veered right coming towards me and Judges' stand So I gave left rudder and model veered even more to the right I chopped throttle but still crashed into the Judges' tent scattering all. Thank God nobody hurt: my ego got bruised a bit but was all. What happened? I actually gave right rudder..... No excuses....really and truly I nearly dumb thumbed the crate into a near disaster BUT I SWORE I gave it left rudder. Fatigue plays strange tricks sometimes especially in heat and when you are also battling for 1st position with a couple others who are closely matched, even if you are 30 years old. Lesson learned John Fuqua is right about no scores on TO or Landings. I would have aborted and regrouped. As it turned out I didn't need the round anyway and found myself wishing I never started it. Are TO and Landing aerobatic maneuvers?? Nope!!! They are required elements but not aerobatic. It up to us whether we score them or not. I say "KNOT". Did I win?? I was too shook up to remember and besides who cares. MattK -----Original Message----- From: J N Hiller To: bob at toprudder.com; General pattern discussion Sent: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 3:13 pm0D Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs You make a good argument for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have aborted landings more than once. Jim ? -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Bob Richards Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs ? I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to?dangerous situations when they would probably have been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation. ? And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had flown pattern for several years. ? I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC. ? JM2CW ? Bob R. --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie <geobet4 at verizon.net> wrote: I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. ? All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint. ? G.? ? ? ?____ ___________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From geobet4 at verizon.net Mon Mar 2 12:49:53 2009 From: geobet4 at verizon.net (George W.Kennie) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 21:49:53 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions References: Message-ID: Jim, I think I'm finally catching up to your thought process. Boy, you must be frustrated ! ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:28 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions That's the issue I was trying to open. "Flying Speed" = What? Judge perception I guess! Call it like you see it until it's more defined or dropped. One could always ask for a clarification during the pilot's and or judge's meeting. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:14 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Jim, I finally see the light. I've been too focused on the line in the PPP which is incomplete. Thinking that the word "stop" was the crucial point it now becomes clear that the emphasis is really meant to be focused on the word "or", and understanding that makes it clear that,like Chris says, after the 10 meter roll it's fini ! But my head is still fighting me. What if the aircraft at no time slows below flying speed, comes in and makes a LZ touchdown and proceeds to roll for 100 feet without becoming airborne or flipping over? Clarification? Jim? Chris? anybody? G. ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:31 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Hi George and Bill. (More have posted since I started this but here it is anyway) Here is the first paragraph from AMA RCA-25. Probably not changed since I saved it on 2-3-09. Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. Looks like there is some discrepancy here. We will probably here more on this. "slowed below flying speed AND rolled 10 meters" could be interpreted as a requirement that the speed be below flying speed (subjective) within 10 meters. Thirty years ago flying speed probably meant something but most modern pattern airplanes are capable of flying speed without ground speed if the nose is high enough, unless there is a documented distinction between flying and hovering. Is landing with power greater than idle allowed? How much power can be used to 'drag it in nose high? Most can roll the tail wheel on before the mains, which commits the airplane to "Below Flying Speed", at least without a bump / bounce. "10 meters OR comes to a stop" would indicate that the landing is complete after the 10-meter roll out without having to come to a stop. If a stop were required I would expect "AND" to be used. I have no opinion on this. I just try to get a decent landing near the center and accept whatever score is given. You should see some of the landings at a soaring contest where the pilot if focused on maximum landing score. Got to go, be back later. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 8:15 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From timsautopro at yahoo.com Mon Mar 2 12:53:37 2009 From: timsautopro at yahoo.com (Tim Taylor) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 21:53:37 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: <017FC5857FC14FAC996161C193EDCA03@CYBERPOWER> Message-ID: <316631.61743.qm@web62304.mail.re1.yahoo.com> I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add one turn around and center maneuver to the classes that score them. Exit the box down wind then they can make a 180 to landing. Tim --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: From: George W.Kennie Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM _filtered #yiv380045516 { font-family:Tahoma;} _filtered #yiv380045516 { font-family:inherit;} _filtered #yiv380045516 {margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;} #yiv380045516 P.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv380045516 LI.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv380045516 DIV.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv380045516 P.MsoNormalIndent { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt 0.5in;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv380045516 LI.MsoNormalIndent { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt 0.5in;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv380045516 DIV.MsoNormalIndent { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt 0.5in;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv380045516 P.MsoAutoSig { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv380045516 LI.MsoAutoSig { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv380045516 DIV.MsoAutoSig { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv380045516 SPAN.EmailStyle15 { COLOR:navy;} #yiv380045516 DIV.Section1 { } I think that dropping the scoring of? TOs and LGs with the intent of reducing risk will be only minimally effective. There?are always going to be individuals who will experience difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many times they go around. I can think of individuals who would include me in the group. ? G.? ? ? ? ? ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: bob at toprudder.com ; General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs You make a good argument for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have aborted landings more than once. Jim ? -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Bob Richards Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs ? I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to?dangerous situations when they would probably have been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation. ? And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had flown pattern for several years. ? I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC. ? JM2CW ? Bob R. --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. ? All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint. ? G.? ? ? ? _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From js.smith at verizon.net Mon Mar 2 12:57:22 2009 From: js.smith at verizon.net (Scott Smith) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 21:57:22 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions In-Reply-To: <00ab01c99b7d$b16fa0f0$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst><7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER><87C8916B96DB4606A04580E55D82D59F@CYBERPOWER> <479298.45457.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <00ab01c99b7d$b16fa0f0$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Message-ID: <0AC2066411C14D70B526B7C57F686087@HP2> Here's another one for you (assuming "landing zone" and "landing area" are synonymous): >From the description If the touchdown is within the runway but not in the landing zone it should be downgraded proportionate to the distance outside the landing zone. >From the judging guide section 9. Aircraft lands outside the landing area or runway, zero (0) points. I guess the description would take precedent. _____ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of billglaze Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 4:27 PM To: Jim Quinn; General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Jim: That's what we're trying to hash out here; just what is the rule? Some questions abound; Chris straightened out some of the stuff, but it appears from the differences here that a further definition may be required; somebody mentioned next rules cycle. Sounds good to me. Georgie had a good interpretation, looking at the anomalies, which should be, and can be, eliminated, I feel. Chris, (and many others) also have been helpful. BTW: did you get my check? Bill Glaze ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Quinn To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 4:16 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions If you're rolling on the pavement at the Nats or on the grass at the Black Dirt's runway there is a huge difference in the roll out. I say just follow the rule. Jim Quinn _____ From: George W.Kennie To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 2, 2009 12:22:40 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions # 2 screw-up !!!! It's not "roll to a stop within 15 meters", it's 10 meters, but the "stop" is still the elementle crux, I think. If it says " no downgrade if the model rolls to a stop within 10 meters" doesn't that infer that if the model continues to roll beyond that distance it becomews a downgradeable offence (1/2pt +)? And if it's not a centered maneuver, where'd we come up with the axiom " for maximum landing points, touchdown should occur < 2 meters either side of the centerline"? Is that FAI ? Did I make it up? Am I totally losing it? How the heck is anyone expected to keep all this stuff straight? ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker To: Discussion List Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Cut and pasted from the AMA website this morning: Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the landing zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case shall exceed 30 meters. Landing is not a centered maneuver and there is no downgrade for displacement of the touchdown point left or right from center as long as the landing is in the landing zone. If the touchdown is within the runway but not in the landing zone it should be downgraded proportionate to the distance outside the landing zone. The Contest Director may designate any landing zone appropriate to the field if safety considerations dictate. If the landing zone is anything other than standard it should be thoroughly discussed with the pilots and judges before flying is started and no downgrade shall be applied due to the touchdown in the non-standard landing zone. Emphasis added by me. This of course for AMA classes. JLK _____ From: geobet4 at verizon.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:15:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter . We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter . We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tkeithblack at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 13:37:16 2009 From: tkeithblack at gmail.com (Keith Black) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 22:37:16 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009: Two 2/2 reversed In-Reply-To: <8CB69838E9D73A5-BB0-452@mblk-d49.sysops.aol.com> References: <024701c99aed$e12a1d10$a37e5730$@com> <8CB69838E9D73A5-BB0-452@mblk-d49.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <77f26e410903021437i111fb93cs13586d401fe1fab1@mail.gmail.com> Matt, my sentence wasn't worded well. I was trying to say I think it will be easier to fit in the box without the pause in the middle. On 3/2/09, rcmaster199 at aol.com wrote: > Keith, > > I'm not certain I got your meaning in your last sentence of the long > paragraph. > > Anyway, the maneuver is straight forward for those who are still > uncertain: > > enter downwind, > half roll to inverted > hold until short distance before center > half roll to upright (same roll direction as first roll element).... > as wings get horizontal, make sure you are at center > immediately start the next half roll in the opposite direction > hold the inverted > half roll to upright (same roll direction as third roll element).... > > Instant model reaches horizontal again, geometry is finished....don't > forget the S&L after to make the maneuver complete > > Downgrades as shown in the Wallace PPP > > MattK > > -----Original Message----- > From: Keith Black > To: 'General pattern discussion' > Sent: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 11:18 pm > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009: Two 2/2 reversed > > This will make centering the maneuver more difficult (since you can't > draw the line out to compensate for getting there early), however, I > think it should make the maneuver easier to fit in the box. With a good > tail wind inserting three pauses with four unrushed half rolls eats up > the box REAL quickly. This allows us to fly two 2/2 rolls on each side > of center going all the way to center to complete the 2 of 2. > > I'm anxious to give this a try. > > Keith > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nsrc > a-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of > rcmaster199 at aol.com > Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 5:33 PM > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org; glen59shep at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009: Two 2/2 reversed > > Reversal is immediate. Point rolls require hesitation > > Immediate reversal means as soon as model's wing reach horizontal, > model needs to start the opposite roll. There are situations in > maneuvers where opposite rolling elements are present (Reverse Point > Roll, Reverse Knife Edge,etc., for example) where reversal MUST NOT > happen immediately because a hesitation must be flown of some duration. > > But in TWO, 2/2 Rolls Opposite, the description requires 2 individual > and complete 2/2 rolls to be done, in opposite directions. This follows > established precedent (first done in F3A assymetric rolling maneuvers) > where two different rolls were required in opposite directions. I am > pretty sure F3A folks remember the 1 1/2 Snap. 4/8 Roll opposite they > flew about 6 or 7 years ago. It was the first such maneuver introduced > into Pattern > > MattK > > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Smith > To: glen59shep at yahoo.com; 'General pattern discussion' > > Sent: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 4:15 pm > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2009: Two 2/2 reversed > > Look a little further down: > > > > Two of Two Point Rolls Reversed ? From level upright or inverted flight, > model performs one-ha > lf (1/2) roll to level inverted/upright flight, > hesitates, > performs another one-half (1/2) roll in the same direction to level > upright/inverted > flight. Immediately the model > performs one-half (1/2) roll to level inverted/upright fli > ght in the > opposite > direction to the 1st two half rolls, hesitates, performs > another one-half (1/2) roll in the same direction to level > upright/inverted > flight. > > > > > > > > > > > > From: > nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Glen > Shepherd > > Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:06 > PM > > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] > Masters 2009: Two 2/2 reversed > > > > > > > > I checked the RCA and I didn't see anything for Two > (2) , 2/2 Reversed. I used the NSRCA link to the RCA > > > 2009-2010 RCA-32: " > > Two > (2), Two of Four (2/4pt) Point Rolls Reversed: From inverted flight. > Model rolls > through 180 degrees, hesitating at each 90 degree point. Then rolls > through > 180 degrees in the opposite direction hesitating at each 90 degree > point. At > each hesitation wings are parallel or vertical to the horizon. > Center > is > middle of upright flight. Downgrades: > 1. One-quarter rolls more or less than > 90 degrees > 2. Model does not > hesitate after each one-quarter roll > 3. Roll rate not constant > 4. Changes in altitude > 5. Ch > anges in heading > Two > point (2/2pt) roll ? slow roll reversed: Model performs a two point > (2/2pt) roll, immediately > performs a slow roll in the opposite direction. See descriptions > of > two point > roll and slow roll for requirements and downgrades for all elements > except > centering. Roll rates need not be the same for the two point (2/2pt) > and the > slow roll. Downgrades: > 1. Centering. The center of the maneuver > is determined as the middle of combined roll elements. Center is > determined > by the midpoint between the start of the two point (2/2pt) roll and > finish of > the slow roll. > 2. Roll reversal not immediate. > > Glen Shapherd > NSRCA 3017 > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- Sent from my mobile device From jshulman at cfl.rr.com Mon Mar 2 14:06:46 2009 From: jshulman at cfl.rr.com (J Shu) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 23:06:46 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: <316631.61743.qm@web62304.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <316631.61743.qm@web62304.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'd much rather see take-offs and landings be judged. What's the incentive of having a pilot learn how to learn a proper (and safe) take-off and landing if there is no 10 to shoot for? And not a 0 or 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make a pilot try and make a safe take-off or landing. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Taylor To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add one turn around and center maneuver to the classes that score them. Exit the box down wind then they can make a 180 to landing. Tim --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: From: George W.Kennie Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM I think that dropping the scoring of TOs and LGs with the intent of reducing risk will be only minimally effective. There are always going to be individuals who will experience difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many times they go around. I can think of individuals who would include me in the group. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: bob at toprudder.com ; General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs You make a good argument for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have aborted landings more than once. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Bob Richards Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to dangerous situations when they would probably have been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation. And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had flown pattern for several years. I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC. JM2CW Bob R. --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint. G. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.horan at sbcglobal.net Mon Mar 2 14:12:21 2009 From: paul.horan at sbcglobal.net (Paul Horan) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 23:12:21 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <515082.62888.qm@web83602.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I also prefer that takeoff and landings be judged, but only in the lower classes.? Thanks, Paul --- On Mon, 3/2/09, J Shu wrote: From: J Shu Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 5:06 PM I'd much rather see take-offs and landings be judged. What's the incentive?of having a pilot learn how to learn a proper (and safe) take-off and landing if there is no 10 to shoot for? And not a 0 or 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make a pilot try and make a safe take-off or landing. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Taylor To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add one turn around and center maneuver to the classes that score them. Exit the box down wind then they can make a 180 to landing. Tim --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: From: George W.Kennie Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM #yiv801118601 UNKNOWN { FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma;} #yiv801118601 UNKNOWN { FONT-FAMILY:inherit;} #yiv801118601 UNKNOWN { MARGIN:1in 1.25in;} #yiv801118601 #yiv380045516 P.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv801118601 #yiv380045516 LI.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv801118601 #yiv380045516 DIV.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv801118601 #yiv380045516 P.MsoNormalIndent { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt 0.5in;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv801118601 #yiv380045516 LI.MsoNormalIndent { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt 0.5in;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv801118601 #yiv380045516 DIV.MsoNormalIndent { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt 0.5in;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv801118601 #yiv380045516 P.MsoAutoSig { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv801118601 #yiv380045516 LI.MsoAutoSig { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv801118601 #yiv380045516 DIV.MsoAutoSig { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv801118601 #yiv380045516 SPAN.EmailStyle15 { COLOR:navy;} #yiv801118601 #yiv380045516 DIV.Section1 { } I think that dropping the scoring of? TOs and LGs with the intent of reducing risk will be only minimally effective. There?are always going to be individuals who will experience difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many times they go around. I can think of individuals who would include me in the group. ? G.? ? ? ? ? ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: bob at toprudder.com ; General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs You make a good argument for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have aborted landings more than once. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Bob Richards Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to?dangerous situations when they would probably have been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation. And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had flown pattern for several years. I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC. JM2CW Bob R. --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. ? All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint. G.? _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonlowe at aol.com Mon Mar 2 14:26:24 2009 From: jonlowe at aol.com (Jon Lowe) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 23:26:24 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: References: <316631.61743.qm@web62304.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CB69A55CED39F7-CBC-317@FWM-D39.sysops.aol.com> Amen. I guess no one remembers the mess we had a couple of years ago with 0 or 10 takeoffs and landings. Suddenly, everyone forgot how to do it safely. And I disagree that it is not an aerobatic manuever. Very hard to do perfectly, but good ones are beautiful. Is straight and level flight "aerobatic"? We judge it in every class. Jon Lowe -----Original Message----- From: J Shu To: General pattern discussion Sent: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 5:06 pm Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'd much rather see take-offs and landings be judged. What's the incentive?of having a pilot learn how to learn a proper (and safe) take-off and landing if there is no 10 to shoot for? And not a 0 or 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make a pilot try and make a safe take-off or landing. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Taylor To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add one turn around and center maneuver to the classes that score them. Exit the box down wind then they can make a 180 to landing. Tim --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: From: George W.Kennie Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM I think that dropping the scoring of? TOs and LGs with the intent of reducing risk will be only minimally effective. There?are always going to be individuals who will experience difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many times they go around. I can think of individuals who would include me in the group. ? G.? ? ? ? ? ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: bob at toprudder.com ; General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs You make a good argument 20 for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have aborted landings more than once. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Bob Richards Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to?dangerous situations when they would probably have been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself,20my caller, and the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation. And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had flown pattern for several years. I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC. JM2CW0D Bob R. --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. ? All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy 20 of reward in my viewpoint. G.? _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From jnhiller at earthlink.net Mon Mar 2 14:35:12 2009 From: jnhiller at earthlink.net (J N Hiller) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 23:35:12 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: <316631.61743.qm@web62304.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Works for me. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Tim Taylor Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 1:54 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add one turn around and center maneuver to the classes that score them. Exit the box down wind then they can make a 180 to landing. Tim --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: From: George W.Kennie Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM I think that dropping the scoring of TOs and LGs with the intent of reducing risk will be only minimally effective. There are always going to be individuals who will experience difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many times they go around. I can think of individuals who would include me in the group. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: bob at toprudder.com ; General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs You make a good argument for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have aborted landings more than once. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Bob Richards Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to dangerous situations when they would probably have been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation. And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had flown pattern for several years. I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC. JM2CW Bob R. --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint. G. _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter . We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From DaveL322 at comcast.net Mon Mar 2 14:53:34 2009 From: DaveL322 at comcast.net (Dave) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 23:53:34 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: <5009EACEF42246E48FBA0122F668F3B8@JohnFuqua> References: <5009EACEF42246E48FBA0122F668F3B8@JohnFuqua> Message-ID: <1845A78F32D64C5993AF9990A6AB277A@davedesktop> Maybe because the membership has repeatedly voted to score TO and Landing?? There are clearly good points on both sides - but - the majority sides with scoring TO and landing. Regards, Dave _____ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John Fuqua Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:11 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs Someone tell me again why we judge 2 NON AEROBATIC manuevers. If they were aerobatic the FAA would make all airline passengers wear parachutes. Why do we beat ourselves up over these, the latest discussion of landing zone as an example. Take off, have some fun, land and get out of the way for the next guy. F3A finally got is right. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerry at buddengineering.com Mon Mar 2 14:53:39 2009 From: jerry at buddengineering.com (Budd Engineering) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 23:53:39 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: References: <316631.61743.qm@web62304.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I've always felt that your reward for making a good takeoff is you get to fly your flight, and that your reward for making a good landing was you get to fly your next flight. That and peer pressure is all the incentive one needs. Jerry Sent from my iPhone On Mar 2, 2009, at 3:06 PM, "J Shu" wrote: > I'd much rather see take-offs and landings be judged. What's the > incentive of having a pilot learn how to learn a proper (and safe) > take-off and landing if there is no 10 to shoot for? And not a 0 or > 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make a > pilot try and make a safe take-off or landing. > > Regards, > Jason > www.shulmanaviation.com > www.composite-arf.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tim Taylor > To: General pattern discussion > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add one turn around > and center maneuver to the classes that score them. Exit the box > down wind then they can make a 180 to landing. > Tim > > --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: > From: George W.Kennie > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > To: "General pattern discussion" > Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM > > I think that dropping the scoring of TOs and LGs with the intent of > reducing risk will be only minimally effective. There are always > going to be individuals who will experience difficulty with crossing > winds, turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many times > they go around. I can think of individuals who would include me in > the group. > > G. > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: J N Hiller > To: bob at toprudder.com ; General pattern discussion > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > You make a good argument for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I > have aborted landings more than once. > > Jim > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > ]On Behalf Of Bob Richards > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM > To: General pattern discussion > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and > landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the > plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad > takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to dangerous situations when > they would probably have been aborted had they not been scored > maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, > people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the > Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing > when the plane got away from the pilot during one such occurance. > I've also seen a plane slam into a person in the > pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the > plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the > takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point > did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, > anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are > being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation. > > > And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or > Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had flown > pattern for several years. > > > I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC. > > > JM2CW > > > Bob R. > > > > --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: > > I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being > relegated to a non-skill element. > > > > All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that > we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree > of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this > control further requires intense concentration on the part of the > pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where > the degree of concentration required by the pilot > are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe > back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and > confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my > viewpoint. > > > G. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. > We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. > SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. > The Professional version does not have this message. > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnhiller at earthlink.net Mon Mar 2 14:58:23 2009 From: jnhiller at earthlink.net (J N Hiller) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 23:58:23 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No frustration here. Flying season here is still about a month away. I went to the shop a while to adjust the struts (wing twist) on a new 1/4 scale PA-20 (Pacer) and it occurred to me that excess landing speed would likely violate the nose high requirement (again subjective) prior to any roll out consideration and should have already received a downgrade. I will probably get in trouble for this but here goes. Nose high / angle of attack v/s flying speed as you know is relative to how much elevator is being held and throttle setting. Only the pilot really knows if he could have or should have landed slower, however there is no doubt if the tail wheel rolls on first. I have landed with excessive speed many times before someone here suggested using one of the sliders to set flying idle reserving the stick trim for absolute low idle. If you roll it on gently and don't hit a bump it don't bounce and slows nicely on grass, however asphalt is a different story. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 1:50 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Jim, I think I'm finally catching up to your thought process. Boy, you must be frustrated ! ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:28 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions That's the issue I was trying to open. "Flying Speed" = What? Judge perception I guess! Call it like you see it until it's more defined or dropped. One could always ask for a clarification during the pilot's and or judge's meeting. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:14 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Jim, I finally see the light. I've been too focused on the line in the PPP which is incomplete. Thinking that the word "stop" was the crucial point it now becomes clear that the emphasis is really meant to be focused on the word "or", and understanding that makes it clear that,like Chris says, after the 10 meter roll it's fini ! But my head is still fighting me. What if the aircraft at no time slows below flying speed, comes in and makes a LZ touchdown and proceeds to roll for 100 feet without becoming airborne or flipping over? Clarification? Jim? Chris? anybody? G. ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:31 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Hi George and Bill. (More have posted since I started this but here it is anyway) Here is the first paragraph from AMA RCA-25. Probably not changed since I saved it on 2-3-09. Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. Looks like there is some discrepancy here. We will probably here more on this. "slowed below flying speed AND rolled 10 meters" could be interpreted as a requirement that the speed be below flying speed (subjective) within 10 meters. Thirty years ago flying speed probably meant something but most modern pattern airplanes are capable of flying speed without ground speed if the nose is high enough, unless there is a documented distinction between flying and hovering. Is landing with power greater than idle allowed? How much power can be used to 'drag it in nose high? Most can roll the tail wheel on before the mains, which commits the airplane to "Below Flying Speed", at least without a bump / bounce. "10 meters OR comes to a stop" would indicate that the landing is complete after the 10-meter roll out without having to come to a stop. If a stop were required I would expect "AND" to be used. I have no opinion on this. I just try to get a decent landing near the center and accept whatever score is given. You should see some of the landings at a soaring contest where the pilot if focused on maximum landing score. Got to go, be back later. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 8:15 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter . We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billglaze at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 2 15:52:36 2009 From: billglaze at bellsouth.net (billglaze) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 00:52:36 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs References: <316631.61743.qm@web62304.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <8CB69A55CED39F7-CBC-317@FWM-D39.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <016401c99b9a$55dc2750$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Before I went with the Airline, I did a lot of Flight Instructing. The hardest thing to teach a student? It wasn't landings; it was to fly straight and level, same altitude, airspeed and heading. Bill Glaze ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Lowe" To: Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 6:25 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > Amen. I guess no one remembers the mess we had a couple of years ago with > 0 or 10 takeoffs and landings. Suddenly, everyone forgot how to do it > safely. And I disagree that it is not an aerobatic manuever. Very hard > to do perfectly, but good ones are beautiful. Is straight and level > flight "aerobatic"? We judge it in every class. > > > Jon Lowe > > > -----Original Message----- > From: J Shu > To: General pattern discussion > Sent: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 5:06 pm > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd much rather see take-offs and landings > be judged. What's the incentive of having a pilot learn how to learn a > proper (and safe) take-off and landing if there is no 10 to shoot for? And > not a > 0 or 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make a > pilot try > and make a safe take-off or landing. > > > > Regards, > Jason > www.shulmanaviation.com > www.composite-arf.com > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: > Tim > Taylor > > > To: General pattern discussion > > > > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 > PM > > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings > and Takeoffs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add one turn around > and center maneuver to the classes that score them. Exit the box > down > wind then they can make a 180 to landing. > > > Tim > > --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie > wrote: > > > > From: > George W.Kennie > Subject: > Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > To: "General pattern > discussion" > Date: Monday, > March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM > > > > > > > > I think that dropping the scoring > of TOs and LGs with the intent of reducing risk will be only > minimally effective. There are always going to be individuals > who > will experience difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance, > ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many times they go around. I > can > think of individuals who would include me in the group. > > > > > > G. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: J N Hiller > > > To: bob at toprudder.com ; General pattern discussion > > > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 > 3:13 PM > > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] > Landings and Takeoffs > > > > > > > > > You make a good argument > 20 for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have aborted > landings > more than once. > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original > Message----- > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of > Bob > Richards > Sent: > Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM > To: General pattern > discussion > Subject: > Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll > say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and > landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that > put the > plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen > some > bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to dangerous > situations when they would probably have been aborted had > they > not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane > is at > risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane > fly > behind my head at the Nats (between myself,20my caller, > and the > judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the > pilot > during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam > into a > person in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting > off the > ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and > the > pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back > on the > runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In most > situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and > started > over, but because they are being judged they keep on > pushing a > bad situation. > > > > > > > > > > > > And, > no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or > Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had > flown > pattern for several years. > > > > > > > > > > > > I > thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in > IMAC. > > > > > > > > > > > > JM2CW0D > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob > R. > > > > > > > > --- > On Mon, 3/2/09, George > W.Kennie > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I don't feel the same way as John on the > landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. > > > > > > > > > > All > aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require > that > we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some > precise > degree of control over the airframe under our command. To > achieve this control further requires intense > concentration on > the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many > airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration > required by > the pilot are significantly lower than that required to > bring > the airframe back into contact with terra firma and > demonstrate > complete and confident control. This is a skill that is > worthy > 20 of reward in my viewpoint. > > > > > > > > > > > G. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion > mailing > list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > > > > I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. > We are a community of 6 > million users fighting spam. > SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam > emails to date. > The Professional version does not have this > message. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion > mailing > list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From mjfrederick at cox.net Mon Mar 2 15:54:23 2009 From: mjfrederick at cox.net (Matthew Frederick) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 00:54:23 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> <7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER> Message-ID: <39028462F737445EB497A56787523441@Mattmobile> Actually the landing description says "there is no downgrade if the model rolls to a stop within 10 meters." The intent of the rule as I read it is that judging stops once the model has rolled 10 meters (or stops), regardless of whether or not the plane has come to a stop. Therefore, you cannot deviate the path of the airplane from the original heading for landing until it has rolled 10 meters (approximately 33 feet) without incurring a downgrade. Once the model has rolled this distance, the maneuver is complete, and the pilot can turn the aircraft or do whatever is needed to slow it down and bring it to a stop. As far as things outside the pilot's control (poor runway surface) I have a tendency to not downgrade for these on takeoff or landing (unless of course landing gear are ripped out). I've been gigged too many times on takeoff because I hit a hump in the runway and the plane jumped in the air, so I don't do it to anyone else. Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: George W.Kennie To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:15 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjfrederick at cox.net Mon Mar 2 15:58:38 2009 From: mjfrederick at cox.net (Matthew Frederick) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 00:58:38 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs References: <5009EACEF42246E48FBA0122F668F3B8@JohnFuqua> Message-ID: <7233D9D510214CDEA20932DC0851AC66@Mattmobile> Amen, John. ----- Original Message ----- From: John Fuqua To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:11 AM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs Someone tell me again why we judge 2 NON AEROBATIC manuevers. If they were aerobatic the FAA would make all airline passengers wear parachutes. Why do we beat ourselves up over these, the latest discussion of landing zone as an example. Take off, have some fun, land and get out of the way for the next guy. F3A finally got is right. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KTHOMPSON56 at satx.rr.com Mon Mar 2 16:01:30 2009 From: KTHOMPSON56 at satx.rr.com (Ken Thompson) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 01:01:30 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs References: <316631.61743.qm@web62304.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <8CB69A55CED39F7-CBC-317@FWM-D39.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <004601c99b9c$6dd13380$0200a8c0@kencopepere> Agreed... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Lowe" To: Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 5:25 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > Amen. I guess no one remembers the mess we had a couple of years ago > with 0 or 10 takeoffs and landings. Suddenly, everyone forgot how to > do it safely. And I disagree that it is not an aerobatic manuever. > Very hard to do perfectly, but good ones are beautiful. Is straight > and level flight "aerobatic"? We judge it in every class. > > > Jon Lowe > > > -----Original Message----- > From: J Shu > To: General pattern discussion > Sent: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 5:06 pm > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd much rather see take-offs and landings > be judged. What's the incentive of having a pilot learn how to learn a > proper (and safe) take-off and landing if there is no 10 to shoot for? > And not a > 0 or 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make a > pilot try > and make a safe take-off or landing. > > > > Regards, > Jason > www.shulmanaviation.com > www.composite-arf.com > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: > Tim > Taylor > > > To: General pattern discussion > > > > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 > PM > > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings > and Takeoffs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add one turn around > and center maneuver to > the classes that score them. Exit the > box down > wind then they can make a 180 to landing. > > > Tim > > --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie > wrote: > > > > From: > George W.Kennie > Subject: > Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > To: "General pattern > discussion" > Date: Monday, > March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM > > > > > > > > I think that dropping the scoring > of TOs and LGs with the intent of reducing risk will be only > minimally effective. There are always going to be individuals > who > will experience difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance, > ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many times they go > around. I can > think of individuals who would include me in the group. > > > > > > G. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: J N Hiller > > > To: bob at toprudder.com ; General pattern discussion > > > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 > 3:13 PM > > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] > Landings and Takeoffs > > > > > > > > > You make a good argument > 20 for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have aborted > landings > more than once. > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original > Message----- > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of > Bob > Richards > Sent: > Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM > To: General pattern > discussion > Subject: > Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll > say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs > and > landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that > put the > plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've > seen some > bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to dangerous > situations when they would probably have been aborted > had they > not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the > airplane is at > risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one > plane fly > behind my head at the Nats (between myself,20my caller, > and the > judges) during a landing when the plane got away from > the pilot > during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam > into a > person in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting > off the > ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits > and the > pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it > back on the > runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In > most > situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and > started > over, but because they are being judged they keep on > pushing a > bad situation. > > > > > > > > > > > > And, > no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman > or > Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that > had flown > pattern for several years. > > > > > > > > > > > > I > thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in > IMAC. > > > > > > > > > > > > JM2CW0D > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob > R. > > > > > > > > --- > On Mon, 3/2/09, George > W.Kennie > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I don't feel the same way as John on the > landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill > element. > > > > > > > > > > All > aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively > require that > we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some > precise > degree of control over the airframe under our command. > To > achieve this control further requires intense > concentration on > the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are > many > airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration > required by > the pilot are significantly lower than that required to > bring > the airframe back into contact with terra firma and > demonstrate > complete and confident control. This is a skill that is > worthy > 20 of reward in my viewpoint. > > > > > > > > > > > G. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion > mailing > list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > > > > I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. > We are a community of 6 > million users fighting spam. > SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam > emails to date. > The Professional version does not have this > message. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion > mailing > list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From lld613 at psci.net Mon Mar 2 16:36:20 2009 From: lld613 at psci.net (Lisa n Larry) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 01:36:20 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: <5009EACEF42246E48FBA0122F668F3B8@JohnFuqua> References: <5009EACEF42246E48FBA0122F668F3B8@JohnFuqua> Message-ID: Let see, it's around March madness time and the TO/L discussion.3, 2, 1, and Mark.OK..My watch is set for the contest season now.I'm all sync'd up and ready to go.LOL Hopefully this year I actually make to one and fly. Larry _____ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John Fuqua Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:11 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs Someone tell me again why we judge 2 NON AEROBATIC manuevers. If they were aerobatic the FAA would make all airline passengers wear parachutes. Why do we beat ourselves up over these, the latest discussion of landing zone as an example. Take off, have some fun, land and get out of the way for the next guy. F3A finally got is right. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From getterflash at yahoo.com Mon Mar 2 17:22:10 2009 From: getterflash at yahoo.com (Bob Kane) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 02:22:10 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs References: <5009EACEF42246E48FBA0122F668F3B8@JohnFuqua> Message-ID: <201829.21026.qm@web36707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hope to see on the trail this season . . .. Bob Kane getterflash at yahoo.com ________________________________ From: Lisa n Larry To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 2, 2009 8:36:20 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs Let see, it?s around March madness time and the TO/L discussion?3, 2, 1, and Mark?OK..My watch is set for the contest season now?I?m all sync?d up and ready to go?LOL Hopefully this year I actually make to one and fly? Larry ________________________________ From:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John Fuqua Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:11 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs Someone tell me again why we judge 2 NON AEROBATIC manuevers. If they were aerobatic the FAA would make all airline passengers wear parachutes. Why do we beat ourselves up over these, the latest discussion of landing zone as an example. Take off, have some fun, land and get out of the way for the next guy. F3A finally got is right. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpavlick at idseng.com Mon Mar 2 17:48:43 2009 From: jpavlick at idseng.com (John Pavlick) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 02:48:43 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs References: <790974.52739.qm@web1107.biz.mail.sk1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00e001c99baa$8fc83ca0$9501a8c0@GW7422> And I'm sure they got really good scores on those takeoffs too. Jeez. Sometimes it's not just the "rules" that should be blamed. IMHO John Pavlick http://www.idseng.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Richards To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 1:28 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to dangerous situations when they would probably have been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation. And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had flown pattern for several years. I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC. JM2CW Bob R. --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint. G. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at toprudder.com Tue Mar 3 03:30:02 2009 From: bob at toprudder.com (Bob Richards) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 12:30:02 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: <00e001c99baa$8fc83ca0$9501a8c0@GW7422> Message-ID: <469653.40486.qm@web1111.biz.mail.sk1.yahoo.com> Well, that goes without saying! ? Bob R. --- On Mon, 3/2/09, John Pavlick wrote: From: John Pavlick Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 11:48 PM And I'm sure they got really good scores on those takeoffs too. Jeez. Sometimes it's not just the "rules" that should be blamed. IMHO ? John Pavlick http://www.idseng.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Richards To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 1:28 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to?dangerous situations when they would probably have been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation. ? And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had flown pattern for several years. ? I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC. ? JM2CW ? Bob R. --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. ? All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint. ? G.? ? ? _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schale at optonline.net Tue Mar 3 04:14:07 2009 From: schale at optonline.net (Stuart Chale) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 13:14:07 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: <515082.62888.qm@web83602.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <515082.62888.qm@web83602.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49AD2D1A.9030605@optonline.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From verne at twmi.rr.com Tue Mar 3 04:44:47 2009 From: verne at twmi.rr.com (verne at twmi.rr.com) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 13:44:47 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: <49AD2D1A.9030605@optonline.net> Message-ID: <20090303134442.1EJZC.180549.root@hrndva-web13-z02> FAI no longer gets any score for takeoff and landing. It's been very clear that FAI has been trying to shorten the flight time of an FAI flight by reducing the number of maneuvers (19)and enticing pilots to get in the air and into the box as quickly as possible by reducing the time allowed for an official flight. It's rare to even see a procedure turn after takeoff in FAI anymore. All of this was done to accommodate the World's which is a time-intensive event. For FAI, it's all about the aerobatic maneuvers in the box. Verne Koester ---- Stuart Chale wrote: > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From geobet4 at verizon.net Tue Mar 3 04:46:19 2009 From: geobet4 at verizon.net (George W.Kennie) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 13:46:19 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs References: <316631.61743.qm@web62304.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: There you have it from THE expert !!!!!!!!!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: J Shu To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 6:06 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'd much rather see take-offs and landings be judged. What's the incentive of having a pilot learn how to learn a proper (and safe) take-off and landing if there is no 10 to shoot for? And not a 0 or 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make a pilot try and make a safe take-off or landing. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Taylor To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add one turn around and center maneuver to the classes that score them. Exit the box down wind then they can make a 180 to landing. Tim --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: From: George W.Kennie Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM I think that dropping the scoring of TOs and LGs with the intent of reducing risk will be only minimally effective. There are always going to be individuals who will experience difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many times they go around. I can think of individuals who would include me in the group. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: bob at toprudder.com ; General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs You make a good argument for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have aborted landings more than once. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Bob Richards Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to dangerous situations when they would probably have been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation. And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had flown pattern for several years. I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC. JM2CW Bob R. --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint. G. -------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geobet4 at verizon.net Tue Mar 3 04:52:10 2009 From: geobet4 at verizon.net (George W.Kennie) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 13:52:10 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions References: Message-ID: I'm with you on the nose high / flying speed relationship. Somewhere in my memory bank there's something regarding a downgrade if the tailwheel touches down first, but I can no longer tell you if it's AMA or FAI related. My problem is that my memory bank does not contain file folders. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 6:58 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions No frustration here. Flying season here is still about a month away. I went to the shop a while to adjust the struts (wing twist) on a new 1/4 scale PA-20 (Pacer) and it occurred to me that excess landing speed would likely violate the nose high requirement (again subjective) prior to any roll out consideration and should have already received a downgrade. I will probably get in trouble for this but here goes. Nose high / angle of attack v/s flying speed as you know is relative to how much elevator is being held and throttle setting. Only the pilot really knows if he could have or should have landed slower, however there is no doubt if the tail wheel rolls on first. I have landed with excessive speed many times before someone here suggested using one of the sliders to set flying idle reserving the stick trim for absolute low idle. If you roll it on gently and don't hit a bump it don't bounce and slows nicely on grass, however asphalt is a different story. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 1:50 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Jim, I think I'm finally catching up to your thought process. Boy, you must be frustrated ! ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:28 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions That's the issue I was trying to open. "Flying Speed" = What? Judge perception I guess! Call it like you see it until it's more defined or dropped. One could always ask for a clarification during the pilot's and or judge's meeting. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:14 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Jim, I finally see the light. I've been too focused on the line in the PPP which is incomplete. Thinking that the word "stop" was the crucial point it now becomes clear that the emphasis is really meant to be focused on the word "or", and understanding that makes it clear that,like Chris says, after the 10 meter roll it's fini ! But my head is still fighting me. What if the aircraft at no time slows below flying speed, comes in and makes a LZ touchdown and proceeds to roll for 100 feet without becoming airborne or flipping over? Clarification? Jim? Chris? anybody? G. ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:31 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Hi George and Bill. (More have posted since I started this but here it is anyway) Here is the first paragraph from AMA RCA-25. Probably not changed since I saved it on 2-3-09. Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. Looks like there is some discrepancy here. We will probably here more on this. "slowed below flying speed AND rolled 10 meters" could be interpreted as a requirement that the speed be below flying speed (subjective) within 10 meters. Thirty years ago flying speed probably meant something but most modern pattern airplanes are capable of flying speed without ground speed if the nose is high enough, unless there is a documented distinction between flying and hovering. Is landing with power greater than idle allowed? How much power can be used to 'drag it in nose high? Most can roll the tail wheel on before the mains, which commits the airplane to "Below Flying Speed", at least without a bump / bounce. "10 meters OR comes to a stop" would indicate that the landing is complete after the 10-meter roll out without having to come to a stop. If a stop were required I would expect "AND" to be used. I have no opinion on this. I just try to get a decent landing near the center and accept whatever score is given. You should see some of the landings at a soaring contest where the pilot if focused on maximum landing score. Got to go, be back later. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 8:15 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From smaragdz at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 3 05:42:44 2009 From: smaragdz at bellsouth.net (Ryan Smith) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 14:42:44 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Sale: Integral Message-ID: <49ad41df.0913c00a.3167.5e1f@mx.google.com> Hey guys, Selling this for a friend. Here's the link to the RCU page. http://www.rcuniverse.com/market/item.cfm?itemid=490404 &electric=0 Thanks for looking. Ryan Smith -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From donramsey at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 05:44:58 2009 From: donramsey at gmail.com (Don Ramsey) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 14:44:58 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions In-Reply-To: <87C8916B96DB4606A04580E55D82D59F@CYBERPOWER> References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> <7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER> <87C8916B96DB4606A04580E55D82D59F@CYBERPOWER> Message-ID: <020401c99c0e$9e8f0ca0$dbad25e0$@com> I just check all the PowerPoint presentations on the website and they all say the same thing. LANDING AREA: the entire defined runway. LANDING ZONE is 30 m long and normally the width of the runway BUT not more than 30 M wide. Georgie, the landing never has been required to be within 2 meters of center for maximum points. As long as I was judging chairman (and before) it was 30 meters centered on the judges. Landing in that area could score max points. (The takeoff should lift off within 2 meters of center for max points). There is a lot of times when the aircraft may stop within 10 meters after landing and there are many times when it may not. For instance, grass runway with high grass or a smooth cement runway and no wind. The intent of the rule was to allow max points for either case. I've flown in some contests where if you landed in the landing zone (for max points) it was almost impossible to keep the plane from exiting the end of the runway. Solution: land about 10 meters before center, roll 10 meters and be finished, then don't worry about running off the end. Don From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:23 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions # 2 screw-up !!!! It's not "roll to a stop within 15 meters", it's 10 meters, but the "stop" is still the elementle crux, I think. If it says " no downgrade if the model rolls to a stop within 10 meters" doesn't that infer that if the model continues to roll beyond that distance it becomews a downgradeable offence (1/2pt +)? And if it's not a centered maneuver, where'd we come up with the axiom " for maximum landing points, touchdown should occur < 2 meters either side of the centerline"? Is that FAI ? Did I make it up? Am I totally losing it? How the heck is anyone expected to keep all this stuff straight? ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker To: Discussion List Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Cut and pasted from the AMA website this morning: Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the landing zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case shall exceed 30 meters. Landing is not a centered maneuver and there is no downgrade for displacement of the touchdown point left or right from center as long as the landing is in the landing zone. If the touchdown is within the runway but not in the landing zone it should be downgraded proportionate to the distance outside the landing zone. The Contest Director may designate any landing zone appropriate to the field if safety considerations dictate. If the landing zone is anything other than standard it should be thoroughly discussed with the pilots and judges before flying is started and no downgrade shall be applied due to the touchdown in the non-standard landing zone. Emphasis added by me. This of course for AMA classes. JLK _____ From: geobet4 at verizon.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:15:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter . We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter . We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From donramsey at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 05:54:43 2009 From: donramsey at gmail.com (Don Ramsey) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 14:54:43 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions - Note to all Seminar Instructors In-Reply-To: <0AC2066411C14D70B526B7C57F686087@HP2> References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst><7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER><87C8916B96DB4606A04580E55D82D59F@CYBERPOWER> <479298.45457.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <00ab01c99b7d$b16fa0f0$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> <0AC2066411C14D70B526B7C57F686087@HP2> Message-ID: <020901c99c0f$fc3cb810$f4b62830$@com> Please cover the difference in Landing Area and Landing Zone in all Judging Seminars. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billglaze at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 3 06:37:04 2009 From: billglaze at bellsouth.net (billglaze) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 15:37:04 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> <7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER> <87C8916B96DB4606A04580E55D82D59F@CYBERPOWER> <020401c99c0e$9e8f0ca0$dbad25e0$@com> Message-ID: <028401c99c15$e3c36710$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Don: There are times when for one reason or another, the field is unmarked with a landing zone, and the CD announces that the LZ is the entire runway, making the LZ and the LA the same. That's what leads to doubt in judging landings. At least in my case, and, apparently, other folks also. And, like Georgie, I've also seen the 2 meter requirement mentioned; can't put my finger on it right now, but I've seen it in some official document. Bill Glaze ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Ramsey To: 'General pattern discussion' Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions I just check all the PowerPoint presentations on the website and they all say the same thing. LANDING AREA: the entire defined runway. LANDING ZONE is 30 m long and normally the width of the runway BUT not more than 30 M wide. Georgie, the landing never has been required to be within 2 meters of center for maximum points. As long as I was judging chairman (and before) it was 30 meters centered on the judges. Landing in that area could score max points. (The takeoff should lift off within 2 meters of center for max points). There is a lot of times when the aircraft may stop within 10 meters after landing and there are many times when it may not. For instance, grass runway with high grass or a smooth cement runway and no wind. The intent of the rule was to allow max points for either case. I've flown in some contests where if you landed in the landing zone (for max points) it was almost impossible to keep the plane from exiting the end of the runway. Solution: land about 10 meters before center, roll 10 meters and be finished, then don't worry about running off the end. Don From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:23 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions # 2 screw-up !!!! It's not "roll to a stop within 15 meters", it's 10 meters, but the "stop" is still the elementle crux, I think. If it says " no downgrade if the model rolls to a stop within 10 meters" doesn't that infer that if the model continues to roll beyond that distance it becomews a downgradeable offence (1/2pt +)? And if it's not a centered maneuver, where'd we come up with the axiom " for maximum landing points, touchdown should occur < 2 meters either side of the centerline"? Is that FAI ? Did I make it up? Am I totally losing it? How the heck is anyone expected to keep all this stuff straight? ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker To: Discussion List Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Cut and pasted from the AMA website this morning: Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the landing zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case shall exceed 30 meters. Landing is not a centered maneuver and there is no downgrade for displacement of the touchdown point left or right from center as long as the landing is in the landing zone. If the touchdown is within the runway but not in the landing zone it should be downgraded proportionate to the distance outside the landing zone. The Contest Director may designate any landing zone appropriate to the field if safety considerations dictate. If the landing zone is anything other than standard it should be thoroughly discussed with the pilots and judges before flying is started and no downgrade shall be applied due to the touchdown in the non-standard landing zone. Emphasis added by me. This of course for AMA classes. JLK ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: geobet4 at verizon.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:15:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pamrich47 at hotmail.com Tue Mar 3 07:00:09 2009 From: pamrich47 at hotmail.com (Richard Strickland) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 16:00:09 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: <49AD2D1A.9030605@optonline.net> References: <515082.62888.qm@web83602.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <49AD2D1A.9030605@optonline.net> Message-ID: I agree, Stuart. It takes the same level of skill, concentration and practice to make a good take-off or landing as to do anything else. First flight of a new (to me) pattern airplane last week and the take off was one of my prettiest primarily because I was thinking about it. I have gotten a little sloppy since they are not scored. I used to score myself as successful when you couldn't tell when the wheels actually left or contacted the surface. Smoooth, baby... It was part of the game. Not that it happens all that often. Richard Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 08:14:02 -0500 From: schale at optonline.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I would prefer all classes including FAI be judged on takeoffs and landings. A smooth take off and landing are just as impressive as a nice 4 point roll. Otherwise your fellow club members wouldn't make a comment on a nice landing. Why? Because it is hard to do consistently, especially with wind. For those of you who have been flying back to the time of trike gear, a nose high takeoff or landing showed a lot of skill. Gradually increase your speed, pull the nose off the runway, stay rolling on the mains and then lift off gracefully. Not easy. And who were the pilots first doing this? The Masters pilots (top class). Now an FAI pilot gets to just blast off (less time on grass to beat up their plane) and score a 10. The lower classes are supposed to learn and aspire to fly as well as the guys in the upper classes. Not with this one :) Stuart C. Paul Horan wrote: I also prefer that takeoff and landings be judged, but only in the lower classes. Thanks, Paul --- On Mon, 3/2/09, J Shu wrote: From: J Shu Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 5:06 PM I'd much rather see take-offs and landings be judged. What's the incentive of having a pilot learn how to learn a proper (and safe) take-off and landing if there is no 10 to shoot for? And not a 0 or 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make a pilot try and make a safe take-off or landing. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Taylor To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add one turn around and center maneuver to the classes that score them. Exit the box down wind then they can make a 180 to landing. Tim --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: From: George W.Kennie Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM I think that dropping the scoring of TOs and LGs with the intent of reducing risk will be only minimally effective. There are always going to be individuals who will experience difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many times they go around. I can think of individuals who would include me in the group. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: bob at toprudder.com ; General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs You make a good argument for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have aborted landings more than once. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Bob Richards Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to dangerous situations when they would probably have been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation. And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had flown pattern for several years. I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC. JM2CW Bob R. --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint. G. _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Life without walls. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_allup_1a_explore_032009 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From khoard at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 07:06:19 2009 From: khoard at gmail.com (Keith Hoard) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 16:06:19 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions In-Reply-To: <028401c99c15$e3c36710$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> <7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER> <87C8916B96DB4606A04580E55D82D59F@CYBERPOWER> <020401c99c0e$9e8f0ca0$dbad25e0$@com> <028401c99c15$e3c36710$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Message-ID: <6792ef120903030806t59cf370w9a6b7335133f8d1@mail.gmail.com> I would just give a score based on my IMPRESSION of the landing. . . it it looks good, then a 9 - 9.5 - or 10 depending on how I felt the pilots flight went prior to the landing and other previous flights I have judged. If anyone presses me afterward, I will just claim the "smooth and graceful" clause in the AMA rulebook. . . that covers everything!!! On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 9:36 AM, billglaze wrote: > Don: > There are times when for one reason or another, the field is unmarked with > a landing zone, and the CD announces that the LZ is the entire runway, > making the LZ and the LA the same. That's what leads to doubt in judging > landings. At least in my case, and, apparently, other folks also. And, > like Georgie, I've also seen the 2 meter requirement mentioned; can't put my > finger on it right now, but I've seen it in some official document. > Bill Glaze > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Don Ramsey > *To:* 'General pattern discussion' > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 AM > *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions > > I just check all the PowerPoint presentations on the website and they all > say the same thing. LANDING AREA: the entire defined runway. LANDING > ZONE is 30 m long and normally the width of the runway BUT not more than 30 > M wide. > > > > Georgie, the landing never has been required to be within 2 meters of > center for maximum points. As long as I was judging chairman (and before) > it was 30 meters centered on the judges. Landing in that area could score > max points. (The takeoff should lift off within 2 meters of center for max > points). > > > > There is a lot of times when the aircraft may stop within 10 meters after > landing and there are many times when it may not. For instance, grass > runway with high grass or a smooth cement runway and no wind. The intent > of the rule was to allow max points for either case. I?ve flown in some > contests where if you landed in the landing zone (for max points) it was > almost impossible to keep the plane from exiting the end of the runway. > Solution: land about 10 meters before center, roll 10 meters and be > finished, then don?t worry about running off the end. > > > > Don > > > > > > *From:* nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto: > nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] *On Behalf Of *George W.Kennie > *Sent:* Monday, March 02, 2009 11:23 AM > *To:* General pattern discussion > *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions > > > > # 2 screw-up !!!! It's not "roll to a stop within 15 meters", it's 10 > meters, but the "stop" is still the elementle crux, I think. If it says " > no downgrade if the model rolls to a stop within 10 meters" doesn't that > infer that if the model continues to roll beyond that distance it becomews a > downgradeable offence (1/2pt +)? > > > > And if it's not a centered maneuver, where'd we come up with the axiom " > for maximum landing points, touchdown should occur < 2 meters either side of > the centerline"? Is that FAI ? Did I make it up? Am I totally losing it? > How the heck is anyone expected to keep all this stuff straight? > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* John Konneker > > *To:* Discussion List > > *Sent:* Monday, March 02, 2009 11:32 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions > > > > Cut and pasted from the AMA website this morning: > *Landing: *The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments > from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The > model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and > then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver > should be considered *complete once the plane has slowed below flying > speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades > shall be applied after that point*. > The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular across the > runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the landing zone is normally > the width of the runway but in no case shall exceed 30 meters. *Landing is > not a centered maneuver and there is no downgrade for displacement of the > touchdown point left or right from center as long as the landing is in the > landing zone.* If the touchdown is within the runway but not in the > landing zone it should be downgraded proportionate to the distance outside > the landing zone. The Contest Director may designate any landing zone > appropriate to the field if safety considerations dictate. If the landing > zone is anything other than standard it should be thoroughly discussed with > the pilots and judges before flying is started and no downgrade shall be > applied due to the touchdown in the non-standard landing zone. > Emphasis added by me. This of course for AMA classes. > JLK > > > ------------------------------ > > From: geobet4 at verizon.net > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:15:23 -0500 > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions > > > > Bill, > > > > This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to > your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. > > > > In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model > rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! > What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a > plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then > proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a > single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most > observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" > stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. > Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control > the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed > controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on > this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter > rollout. > > > > If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and > then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or > whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's > control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the > plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel > e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. > > > > And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit > a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. > > > > Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should > be so received. > > > > G. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* billglaze > > *To:* nsrca- discussion > > *Sent:* Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM > > *Subject:* [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions > > > > At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: > > > > I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like > a question answered that I've had for a long time. > > On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? > I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me > "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the > airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the > score, is their idea. > > Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately > into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? > I've been called for doing so once. > > Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the > Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. > Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. > (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly > read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the > list! > > thanks > > Bill Glaze > > NSRCA 2388 > > > ------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > ------------------------------ > > I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter > . > We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. > SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. > The Professional version does not have this message. > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > ------------------------------ > > I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter > . > We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. > SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. > The Professional version does not have this message. > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geobet4 at verizon.net Tue Mar 3 07:19:30 2009 From: geobet4 at verizon.net (George W.Kennie) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 16:19:30 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> <7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER> <87C8916B96DB4606A04580E55D82D59F@CYBERPOWER> <020401c99c0e$9e8f0ca0$dbad25e0$@com> Message-ID: Thanks Don, for that clarification. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Ramsey To: 'General pattern discussion' Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions I just check all the PowerPoint presentations on the website and they all say the same thing. LANDING AREA: the entire defined runway. LANDING ZONE is 30 m long and normally the width of the runway BUT not more than 30 M wide. Georgie, the landing never has been required to be within 2 meters of center for maximum points. As long as I was judging chairman (and before) it was 30 meters centered on the judges. Landing in that area could score max points. (The takeoff should lift off within 2 meters of center for max points). There is a lot of times when the aircraft may stop within 10 meters after landing and there are many times when it may not. For instance, grass runway with high grass or a smooth cement runway and no wind. The intent of the rule was to allow max points for either case. I've flown in some contests where if you landed in the landing zone (for max points) it was almost impossible to keep the plane from exiting the end of the runway. Solution: land about 10 meters before center, roll 10 meters and be finished, then don't worry about running off the end. Don From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:23 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions # 2 screw-up !!!! It's not "roll to a stop within 15 meters", it's 10 meters, but the "stop" is still the elementle crux, I think. If it says " no downgrade if the model rolls to a stop within 10 meters" doesn't that infer that if the model continues to roll beyond that distance it becomews a downgradeable offence (1/2pt +)? And if it's not a centered maneuver, where'd we come up with the axiom " for maximum landing points, touchdown should occur < 2 meters either side of the centerline"? Is that FAI ? Did I make it up? Am I totally losing it? How the heck is anyone expected to keep all this stuff straight? ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker To: Discussion List Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Cut and pasted from the AMA website this morning: Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the landing zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case shall exceed 30 meters. Landing is not a centered maneuver and there is no downgrade for displacement of the touchdown point left or right from center as long as the landing is in the landing zone. If the touchdown is within the runway but not in the landing zone it should be downgraded proportionate to the distance outside the landing zone. The Contest Director may designate any landing zone appropriate to the field if safety considerations dictate. If the landing zone is anything other than standard it should be thoroughly discussed with the pilots and judges before flying is started and no downgrade shall be applied due to the touchdown in the non-standard landing zone. Emphasis added by me. This of course for AMA classes. JLK ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: geobet4 at verizon.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:15:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billglaze at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 3 07:22:39 2009 From: billglaze at bellsouth.net (billglaze) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 16:22:39 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst><7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER><87C8916B96DB4606A04580E55D82D59F@CYBERPOWER><020401c99c0e$9e8f0ca0$dbad25e0$@com><028401c99c15$e3c36710$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> <6792ef120903030806t59cf370w9a6b7335133f8d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <02bf01c99c1c$41b2e430$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Keith: With all due respect, (and I have an idea that lots of folks may do it your way, occasionally,) for years we have been trying to get around the "impression" aspect of judging, It's hard to do, but that's why, (I believe) we have such detailed maneuver descriptions in the rules. (Again, my idea.) If this impression judging is extended, it could, in theory, be used for all judged maneuvers by some folks. Or so it seems to me. I understand the difficulty, and perhaps impossibility, of absolutely tying down each and every little thing. I doubt, in fact, that it's possible. But I feel that we should still try; each attempt brings us a little closer to the absolute. The above is purely my opinion, and is subject to being revoked without notice! Bill Glaze ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Hoard To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions I would just give a score based on my IMPRESSION of the landing. . . it it looks good, then a 9 - 9.5 - or 10 depending on how I felt the pilots flight went prior to the landing and other previous flights I have judged. If anyone presses me afterward, I will just claim the "smooth and graceful" clause in the AMA rulebook. . . that covers everything!!! On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 9:36 AM, billglaze wrote: Don: There are times when for one reason or another, the field is unmarked with a landing zone, and the CD announces that the LZ is the entire runway, making the LZ and the LA the same. That's what leads to doubt in judging landings. At least in my case, and, apparently, other folks also. And, like Georgie, I've also seen the 2 meter requirement mentioned; can't put my finger on it right now, but I've seen it in some official document. Bill Glaze ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Ramsey To: 'General pattern discussion' Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions I just check all the PowerPoint presentations on the website and they all say the same thing. LANDING AREA: the entire defined runway. LANDING ZONE is 30 m long and normally the width of the runway BUT not more than 30 M wide. Georgie, the landing never has been required to be within 2 meters of center for maximum points. As long as I was judging chairman (and before) it was 30 meters centered on the judges. Landing in that area could score max points. (The takeoff should lift off within 2 meters of center for max points). There is a lot of times when the aircraft may stop within 10 meters after landing and there are many times when it may not. For instance, grass runway with high grass or a smooth cement runway and no wind. The intent of the rule was to allow max points for either case. I?ve flown in some contests where if you landed in the landing zone (for max points) it was almost impossible to keep the plane from exiting the end of the runway. Solution: land about 10 meters before center, roll 10 meters and be finished, then don?t worry about running off the end. Don From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:23 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions # 2 screw-up !!!! It's not "roll to a stop within 15 meters", it's 10 meters, but the "stop" is still the elementle crux, I think. If it says " no downgrade if the model rolls to a stop within 10 meters" doesn't that infer that if the model continues to roll beyond that distance it becomews a downgradeable offence (1/2pt +)? And if it's not a centered maneuver, where'd we come up with the axiom " for maximum landing points, touchdown should occur < 2 meters either side of the centerline"? Is that FAI ? Did I make it up? Am I totally losing it? How the heck is anyone expected to keep all this stuff straight? ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker To: Discussion List Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Cut and pasted from the AMA website this morning: Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the landing zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case shall exceed 30 meters. Landing is not a centered maneuver and there is no downgrade for displacement of the touchdown point left or right from center as long as the landing is in the landing zone. If the touchdown is within the runway but not in the landing zone it should be downgraded proportionate to the distance outside the landing zone. The Contest Director may designate any landing zone appropriate to the field if safety considerations dictate. If the landing zone is anything other than standard it should be thoroughly discussed with the pilots and judges before flying is started and no downgrade shall be applied due to the touchdown in the non-standard landing zone. Emphasis added by me. This of course for AMA classes. JLK ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: geobet4 at verizon.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:15:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jshulman at cfl.rr.com Tue Mar 3 07:25:34 2009 From: jshulman at cfl.rr.com (J Shu) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 16:25:34 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: References: <316631.61743.qm@web62304.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6C3316C0EFFA4F19BF61648035F842D7@UncleJasPC> I'm certainly not THE expert... I'm just going by my observations of pattern now to pattern when I was a kid. Like Stuart said, nothing beat a nose high take-off or landing down the centerline... and not many could do it. At least back then the only planes I remember running from weren't pattern planes, but scale planes! I used to always lose bets with my brother for the best take-off and landings cause his Ugly Stick was the perfect plane for that. He would line it up on the center line and roll down the runway, lift the nose just before the judges and break ground just after... 10. And then do the same thing for landing and get 10's there too. But his loops always ended up in the next county so I won the flying bets. FAI doesn't need to have scored take-offs and landings... we don't have time for it. But I don't see why AMA shouldn't be scored (and taught) on take-offs and landings. If you're a good pilot, then these should be freebie points for the taking. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: George W.Kennie To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:46 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs There you have it from THE expert !!!!!!!!!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: J Shu To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 6:06 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'd much rather see take-offs and landings be judged. What's the incentive of having a pilot learn how to learn a proper (and safe) take-off and landing if there is no 10 to shoot for? And not a 0 or 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make a pilot try and make a safe take-off or landing. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Taylor To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add one turn around and center maneuver to the classes that score them. Exit the box down wind then they can make a 180 to landing. Tim --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: From: George W.Kennie Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM I think that dropping the scoring of TOs and LGs with the intent of reducing risk will be only minimally effective. There are always going to be individuals who will experience difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many times they go around. I can think of individuals who would include me in the group. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: bob at toprudder.com ; General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs You make a good argument for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have aborted landings more than once. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Bob Richards Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to dangerous situations when they would probably have been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation. And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had flown pattern for several years. I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC. JM2CW Bob R. --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint. G. ------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geobet4 at verizon.net Tue Mar 3 07:46:31 2009 From: geobet4 at verizon.net (George W.Kennie) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 16:46:31 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs References: <316631.61743.qm@web62304.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <6C3316C0EFFA4F19BF61648035F842D7@UncleJasPC> Message-ID: <0E0A4B4E941740C29F729579C515597D@CYBERPOWER> Aaand........., freebie points can be separators ! Yaaaah ! ----- Original Message ----- From: J Shu To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 11:25 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'm certainly not THE expert... I'm just going by my observations of pattern now to pattern when I was a kid. Like Stuart said, nothing beat a nose high take-off or landing down the centerline... and not many could do it. At least back then the only planes I remember running from weren't pattern planes, but scale planes! I used to always lose bets with my brother for the best take-off and landings cause his Ugly Stick was the perfect plane for that. He would line it up on the center line and roll down the runway, lift the nose just before the judges and break ground just after... 10. And then do the same thing for landing and get 10's there too. But his loops always ended up in the next county so I won the flying bets. FAI doesn't need to have scored take-offs and landings... we don't have time for it. But I don't see why AMA shouldn't be scored (and taught) on take-offs and landings. If you're a good pilot, then these should be freebie points for the taking. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: George W.Kennie To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:46 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs There you have it from THE expert !!!!!!!!!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: J Shu To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 6:06 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'd much rather see take-offs and landings be judged. What's the incentive of having a pilot learn how to learn a proper (and safe) take-off and landing if there is no 10 to shoot for? And not a 0 or 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make a pilot try and make a safe take-off or landing. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Taylor To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add one turn around and center maneuver to the classes that score them. Exit the box down wind then they can make a 180 to landing. Tim --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: From: George W.Kennie Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM I think that dropping the scoring of TOs and LGs with the intent of reducing risk will be only minimally effective. There are always going to be individuals who will experience difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many times they go around. I can think of individuals who would include me in the group. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: bob at toprudder.com ; General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs You make a good argument for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have aborted landings more than once. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Bob Richards Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to dangerous situations when they would probably have been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation. And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had flown pattern for several years. I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC. JM2CW Bob R. --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint. G. ---------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerry at buddengineering.com Tue Mar 3 07:49:29 2009 From: jerry at buddengineering.com (Budd Engineering) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 16:49:29 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions In-Reply-To: <028401c99c15$e3c36710$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> <7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER> <87C8916B96DB4606A04580E55D82D59F@CYBERPOWER> <020401c99c0e$9e8f0ca0$dbad25e0$@com> <028401c99c15$e3c36710$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Message-ID: IIRC the reference to 2 meters is for when there is a runway centerline in use, not to whether the TO/landing is centered on the pilot. Jerry Sent from my iPhone On Mar 3, 2009, at 7:36 AM, "billglaze" wrote: > Don: > There are times when for one reason or another, the field is > unmarked with a landing zone, and the CD announces that the LZ is > the entire runway, making the LZ and the LA the same. That's what > leads to doubt in judging landings. At least in my case, and, > apparently, other folks also. And, like Georgie, I've also seen the > 2 meter requirement mentioned; can't put my finger on it right now, > but I've seen it in some official document. > Bill Glaze > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Don Ramsey > To: 'General pattern discussion' > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 AM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions > > I just check all the PowerPoint presentations on the website and > they all say the same thing. LANDING AREA: the entire defined > runway. LANDING ZONE is 30 m long and normally the width of the > runway BUT not more than 30 M wide. > > > > Georgie, the landing never has been required to be within 2 meters > of center for maximum points. As long as I was judging chairman > (and before) it was 30 meters centered on the judges. Landing in > that area could score max points. (The takeoff should lift off > within 2 meters of center for max points). > > > > There is a lot of times when the aircraft may stop within 10 meters > after landing and there are many times when it may not. For > instance, grass runway with high grass or a smooth cement runway and > no wind. The intent of the rule was to allow max points for either > case. I?ve flown in some contests where if you landed in the landing > zone (for max points) it was almost impossible to keep the plane fr > om exiting the end of the runway. Solution: land about 10 meters bef > ore center, roll 10 meters and be finished, then don?t worry about r > unning off the end. > > > > Don > > > > > > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > ] On Behalf Of George W.Kennie > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:23 AM > To: General pattern discussion > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions > > > > # 2 screw-up !!!! It's not "roll to a stop within 15 meters", > it's 10 meters, but the "stop" is still the elementle crux, I > think. If it says " no downgrade if the model rolls to a stop > within 10 meters" doesn't that infer that if the model continues to > roll beyond that distance it becomews a downgradeable offence (1/2pt > +)? > > > > And if it's not a centered maneuver, where'd we come up with the > axiom " for maximum landing points, touchdown should occur < 2 > meters either side of the centerline"? Is that FAI ? Did I make it > up? Am I totally losing it? How the heck is anyone expected to keep > all this stuff straight? > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: John Konneker > > To: Discussion List > > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:32 AM > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions > > > > Cut and pasted from the AMA website this morning: > Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point > increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from > the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, > dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, > within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete > once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or > comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after > that point. > The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular > across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the > landing zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case > shall exceed 30 meters. Landing is not a centered maneuver and there > is no downgrade for displacement of the touchdown point left or > right from center as long as the landing is in the landing zone. If > the touchdown is within the runway but not in the landing zone it > should be downgraded proportionate to the distance outside the > landing zone. The Contest Director may designate any landing zone > appropriate to the field if safety considerations dictate. If the > landing zone is anything other than standard it should be thoroughly > discussed with the pilots and judges before flying is started and no > downgrade shall be applied due to the touchdown in the non-standard > landing zone. > Emphasis added by me. This of course for AMA classes. > JLK > > > > From: geobet4 at verizon.net > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:15:23 -0500 > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions > > > > Bill, > > > > This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has > responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned > my lesson, here goes. > > > > In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the > model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word > is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many > times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of > the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the > center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 > feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful > landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it > would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to > me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the > approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed > controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me > on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after > the 15 meter rollout. > > > > If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements > and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock > or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond > the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a > result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or > equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require > discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. > > > > And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter > and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs > correcting. > > > > Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and > should be so received. > > > > G. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: billglaze > > To: nsrca- discussion > > Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM > > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions > > > > At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: > > > > I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and > I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. > > On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic > zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had > people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost > interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and > it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. > > Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls > immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the > landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. > > Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states > for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the > same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've > been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known > to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more > knowledgeable brains on the list! > > thanks > > Bill Glaze > > NSRCA 2388 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. > We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. > SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. > The Professional version does not have this message. > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. > We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. > SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. > The Professional version does not have this message. > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geobet4 at verizon.net Tue Mar 3 08:32:48 2009 From: geobet4 at verizon.net (George W.Kennie) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 17:32:48 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst><7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER><87C8916B96DB4606A04580E55D82D59F@CYBERPOWER><020401c99c0e$9e8f0ca0$dbad25e0$@com><028401c99c15$e3c36710$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> <6792ef120903030806t59cf370w9a6b7335133f8d1@mail.gmail.com> <02bf01c99c1c$41b2e430$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Message-ID: I love that revocation clause, Bill. I'm going to file that away for future application, If it's O.K. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 11:22 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Keith: With all due respect, (and I have an idea that lots of folks may do it your way, occasionally,) for years we have been trying to get around the "impression" aspect of judging, It's hard to do, but that's why, (I believe) we have such detailed maneuver descriptions in the rules. (Again, my idea.) If this impression judging is extended, it could, in theory, be used for all judged maneuvers by some folks. Or so it seems to me. I understand the difficulty, and perhaps impossibility, of absolutely tying down each and every little thing. I doubt, in fact, that it's possible. But I feel that we should still try; each attempt brings us a little closer to the absolute. The above is purely my opinion, and is subject to being revoked without notice! Bill Glaze ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Hoard To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions I would just give a score based on my IMPRESSION of the landing. . . it it looks good, then a 9 - 9.5 - or 10 depending on how I felt the pilots flight went prior to the landing and other previous flights I have judged. If anyone presses me afterward, I will just claim the "smooth and graceful" clause in the AMA rulebook. . . that covers everything!!! On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 9:36 AM, billglaze wrote: Don: There are times when for one reason or another, the field is unmarked with a landing zone, and the CD announces that the LZ is the entire runway, making the LZ and the LA the same. That's what leads to doubt in judging landings. At least in my case, and, apparently, other folks also. And, like Georgie, I've also seen the 2 meter requirement mentioned; can't put my finger on it right now, but I've seen it in some official document. Bill Glaze ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Ramsey To: 'General pattern discussion' Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions I just check all the PowerPoint presentations on the website and they all say the same thing. LANDING AREA: the entire defined runway. LANDING ZONE is 30 m long and normally the width of the runway BUT not more than 30 M wide. Georgie, the landing never has been required to be within 2 meters of center for maximum points. As long as I was judging chairman (and before) it was 30 meters centered on the judges. Landing in that area could score max points. (The takeoff should lift off within 2 meters of center for max points). There is a lot of times when the aircraft may stop within 10 meters after landing and there are many times when it may not. For instance, grass runway with high grass or a smooth cement runway and no wind. The intent of the rule was to allow max points for either case. I?ve flown in some contests where if you landed in the landing zone (for max points) it was almost impossible to keep the plane from exiting the end of the runway. Solution: land about 10 meters before center, roll 10 meters and be finished, then don?t worry about running off the end. Don From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:23 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions # 2 screw-up !!!! It's not "roll to a stop within 15 meters", it's 10 meters, but the "stop" is still the elementle crux, I think. If it says " no downgrade if the model rolls to a stop within 10 meters" doesn't that infer that if the model continues to roll beyond that distance it becomews a downgradeable offence (1/2pt +)? And if it's not a centered maneuver, where'd we come up with the axiom " for maximum landing points, touchdown should occur < 2 meters either side of the centerline"? Is that FAI ? Did I make it up? Am I totally losing it? How the heck is anyone expected to keep all this stuff straight? ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker To: Discussion List Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Cut and pasted from the AMA website this morning: Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the landing zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case shall exceed 30 meters. Landing is not a centered maneuver and there is no downgrade for displacement of the touchdown point left or right from center as long as the landing is in the landing zone. If the touchdown is within the runway but not in the landing zone it should be downgraded proportionate to the distance outside the landing zone. The Contest Director may designate any landing zone appropriate to the field if safety considerations dictate. If the landing zone is anything other than standard it should be thoroughly discussed with the pilots and judges before flying is started and no downgrade shall be applied due to the touchdown in the non-standard landing zone. Emphasis added by me. This of course for AMA classes. JLK ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: geobet4 at verizon.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:15:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 -------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billglaze at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 3 08:35:53 2009 From: billglaze at bellsouth.net (billglaze) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 17:35:53 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst><7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER><87C8916B96DB4606A04580E55D82D59F@CYBERPOWER><020401c99c0e$9e8f0ca0$dbad25e0$@com><028401c99c15$e3c36710$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst><6792ef120903030806t59cf370w9a6b7335133f8d1@mail.gmail.com><02bf01c99c1c$41b2e430$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Message-ID: <032201c99c26$7c74f5e0$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Any time, Georgie, any time! Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: George W.Kennie To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions I love that revocation clause, Bill. I'm going to file that away for future application, If it's O.K. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 11:22 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Keith: With all due respect, (and I have an idea that lots of folks may do it your way, occasionally,) for years we have been trying to get around the "impression" aspect of judging, It's hard to do, but that's why, (I believe) we have such detailed maneuver descriptions in the rules. (Again, my idea.) If this impression judging is extended, it could, in theory, be used for all judged maneuvers by some folks. Or so it seems to me. I understand the difficulty, and perhaps impossibility, of absolutely tying down each and every little thing. I doubt, in fact, that it's possible. But I feel that we should still try; each attempt brings us a little closer to the absolute. The above is purely my opinion, and is subject to being revoked without notice! Bill Glaze ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Hoard To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions I would just give a score based on my IMPRESSION of the landing. . . it it looks good, then a 9 - 9.5 - or 10 depending on how I felt the pilots flight went prior to the landing and other previous flights I have judged. If anyone presses me afterward, I will just claim the "smooth and graceful" clause in the AMA rulebook. . . that covers everything!!! On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 9:36 AM, billglaze wrote: Don: There are times when for one reason or another, the field is unmarked with a landing zone, and the CD announces that the LZ is the entire runway, making the LZ and the LA the same. That's what leads to doubt in judging landings. At least in my case, and, apparently, other folks also. And, like Georgie, I've also seen the 2 meter requirement mentioned; can't put my finger on it right now, but I've seen it in some official document. Bill Glaze ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Ramsey To: 'General pattern discussion' Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions I just check all the PowerPoint presentations on the website and they all say the same thing. LANDING AREA: the entire defined runway. LANDING ZONE is 30 m long and normally the width of the runway BUT not more than 30 M wide. Georgie, the landing never has been required to be within 2 meters of center for maximum points. As long as I was judging chairman (and before) it was 30 meters centered on the judges. Landing in that area could score max points. (The takeoff should lift off within 2 meters of center for max points). There is a lot of times when the aircraft may stop within 10 meters after landing and there are many times when it may not. For instance, grass runway with high grass or a smooth cement runway and no wind. The intent of the rule was to allow max points for either case. I?ve flown in some contests where if you landed in the landing zone (for max points) it was almost impossible to keep the plane from exiting the end of the runway. Solution: land about 10 meters before center, roll 10 meters and be finished, then don?t worry about running off the end. Don From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:23 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions # 2 screw-up !!!! It's not "roll to a stop within 15 meters", it's 10 meters, but the "stop" is still the elementle crux, I think. If it says " no downgrade if the model rolls to a stop within 10 meters" doesn't that infer that if the model continues to roll beyond that distance it becomews a downgradeable offence (1/2pt +)? And if it's not a centered maneuver, where'd we come up with the axiom " for maximum landing points, touchdown should occur < 2 meters either side of the centerline"? Is that FAI ? Did I make it up? Am I totally losing it? How the heck is anyone expected to keep all this stuff straight? ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker To: Discussion List Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Cut and pasted from the AMA website this morning: Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the landing zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case shall exceed 30 meters. Landing is not a centered maneuver and there is no downgrade for displacement of the touchdown point left or right from center as long as the landing is in the landing zone. If the touchdown is within the runway but not in the landing zone it should be downgraded proportionate to the distance outside the landing zone. The Contest Director may designate any landing zone appropriate to the field if safety considerations dictate. If the landing zone is anything other than standard it should be thoroughly discussed with the pilots and judges before flying is started and no downgrade shall be applied due to the touchdown in the non-standard landing zone. Emphasis added by me. This of course for AMA classes. JLK -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: geobet4 at verizon.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:15:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 ------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. -------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerry at buddengineering.com Tue Mar 3 08:57:38 2009 From: jerry at buddengineering.com (Budd Engineering) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 17:57:38 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: <6C3316C0EFFA4F19BF61648035F842D7@UncleJasPC> References: <316631.61743.qm@web62304.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <6C3316C0EFFA4F19BF61648035F842D7@UncleJasPC> Message-ID: <959EE69B-7532-4978-B78E-B4219E9298E4@buddengineering.com> Why would FAI have less time for scored TO's/L's than any other class? With the exception of Sportsman (and possibly Intermediate), FAI flys the shortest sequence. Masters in particular takes way longer. Jerry Sent from my iPhone On Mar 3, 2009, at 8:25 AM, "J Shu" wrote: > I'm certainly not THE expert... I'm just going by my observations of > pattern now to pattern when I was a kid. Like Stuart said, nothing > beat a nose high take-off or landing down the centerline... and not > many could do it. At least back then the only planes I remember > running from weren't pattern planes, but scale planes! > > I used to always lose bets with my brother for the best take-off and > landings cause his Ugly Stick was the perfect plane for that. He > would line it up on the center line and roll down the runway, lift > the nose just before the judges and break ground just after... 10. > And then do the same thing for landing and get 10's there too. But > his loops always ended up in the next county so I won the flying bets. > > FAI doesn't need to have scored take-offs and landings... we don't > have time for it. But I don't see why AMA shouldn't be scored (and > taught) on take-offs and landings. If you're a good pilot, then > these should be freebie points for the taking. > > Regards, > Jason > www.shulmanaviation.com > www.composite-arf.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: George W.Kennie > To: General pattern discussion > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:46 AM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > There you have it from THE expert !!!!!!!!!!!! > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: J Shu > To: General pattern discussion > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 6:06 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > I'd much rather see take-offs and landings be judged. What's the > incentive of having a pilot learn how to learn a proper (and safe) > take-off and landing if there is no 10 to shoot for? And not a 0 or > 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make a > pilot try and make a safe take-off or landing. > > Regards, > Jason > www.shulmanaviation.com > www.composite-arf.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tim Taylor > To: General pattern discussion > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add one turn around > and center maneuver to the classes that score them. Exit the box > down wind then they can make a 180 to landing. > Tim > > --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: > From: George W.Kennie > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > To: "General pattern discussion" > Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM > > I think that dropping the scoring of TOs and LGs with the intent of > reducing risk will be only minimally effective. There are always > going to be individuals who will experience difficulty with crossing > winds, turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many times > they go around. I can think of individuals who would include me in > the group. > > G. > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: J N Hiller > To: bob at toprudder.com ; General pattern discussion > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > You make a good argument for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I > have aborted landings more than once. > > Jim > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > ]On Behalf Of Bob Richards > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM > To: General pattern discussion > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and > landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the > plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad > takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to dangerous situations when > they would probably have been aborted had they not been scored > maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, > people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the > Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing > when the plane got away from the pilot during one such occurance. > I've also seen a plane slam into a person in the pits at full > throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the plane first > veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff by > kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did he back > off the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have > aborted and started over, but because they are being judged they > keep on pushing a bad situation. > > > And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or > Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had flown > pattern for several years. > > > I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC. > > > JM2CW > > > Bob R. > > > > --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: > > I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being > relegated to a non-skill element. > > > > All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that > we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree > of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this > control further requires intense concentration on the part of the > pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where > the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly > lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact > with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. > This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint. > > > G. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. > We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. > SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. > The Professional version does not have this message. > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. > We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. > SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. > The Professional version does not have this message. > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jshulman at cfl.rr.com Tue Mar 3 09:07:44 2009 From: jshulman at cfl.rr.com (J Shu) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 18:07:44 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: <959EE69B-7532-4978-B78E-B4219E9298E4@buddengineering.com> References: <316631.61743.qm@web62304.mail.re1.yahoo.com><6C3316C0EFFA4F19BF61648035F842D7@UncleJasPC> <959EE69B-7532-4978-B78E-B4219E9298E4@buddengineering.com> Message-ID: Because it takes time to make a perfect take-off and landing, and currently the time stops after the half roll after the 45-downs. We wouldn't have enough time unless the time limit was raised. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Budd Engineering To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:56 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs Why would FAI have less time for scored TO's/L's than any other class? With the exception of Sportsman (and possibly Intermediate), FAI flys the shortest sequence. Masters in particular takes way longer. Jerry Sent from my iPhone On Mar 3, 2009, at 8:25 AM, "J Shu" wrote: I'm certainly not THE expert... I'm just going by my observations of pattern now to pattern when I was a kid. Like Stuart said, nothing beat a nose high take-off or landing down the centerline... and not many could do it. At least back then the only planes I remember running from weren't pattern planes, but scale planes! I used to always lose bets with my brother for the best take-off and landings cause his Ugly Stick was the perfect plane for that. He would line it up on the center line and roll down the runway, lift the nose just before the judges and break ground just after... 10. And then do the same thing for landing and get 10's there too. But his loops always ended up in the next county so I won the flying bets. FAI doesn't need to have scored take-offs and landings... we don't have time for it. But I don't see why AMA shouldn't be scored (and taught) on take-offs and landings. If you're a good pilot, then these should be freebie points for the taking. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: George W.Kennie To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:46 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs There you have it from THE expert !!!!!!!!!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: J Shu To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 6:06 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'd much rather see take-offs and landings be judged. What's the incentive of having a pilot learn how to learn a proper (and safe) take-off and landing if there is no 10 to shoot for? And not a 0 or 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make a pilot try and make a safe take-off or landing. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Taylor To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add one turn around and center maneuver to the classes that score them. Exit the box down wind then they can make a 180 to landing. Tim --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: From: George W.Kennie Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM I think that dropping the scoring of TOs and LGs with the intent of reducing risk will be only minimally effective. There are always going to be individuals who will experience difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many times they go around. I can think of individuals who would include me in the group. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: bob at toprudder.com ; General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs You make a good argument for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have aborted landings more than once. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Bob Richards Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to dangerous situations when they would probably have been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation. And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had flown pattern for several years. I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC. JM2CW Bob R. --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint. G. -------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpavlick at idseng.com Tue Mar 3 09:11:11 2009 From: jpavlick at idseng.com (John Pavlick) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 18:11:11 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: <6C3316C0EFFA4F19BF61648035F842D7@UncleJasPC> Message-ID: <75513.14354.qm@web80505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Oh yeah, it's?still a good idea to run from the scale airplanes! Especially at my club field!? LOL ? John Pavlick --- On Tue, 3/3/09, J Shu wrote: From: J Shu Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 4:25 PM I'm certainly not THE expert... I'm just going by my observations of pattern now to pattern when I was a kid. Like Stuart said, nothing beat a nose high take-off or landing down the centerline... and not many could do it. At least back then the only planes I remember running from weren't pattern planes, but scale planes! ? I used to always lose bets with my brother for the best take-off and landings cause his Ugly Stick was the perfect plane for that. He would line it up on the center line and roll down the runway, lift the nose just before the judges and break ground just after... 10. And then do the same thing for landing and get 10's there too. But his loops always ended up in the next county so I won the flying bets. ? FAI doesn't need to have scored take-offs and landings... we don't have time for it. But I don't see why AMA shouldn't be scored (and taught) on take-offs and landings. If you're a good pilot, then these should be freebie points for the taking. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: George W.Kennie To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:46 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs There you have it from THE? expert !!!!!!!!!!!! ? ? ? ----- Original Message ----- From: J Shu To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 6:06 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'd much rather see take-offs and landings be judged. What's the incentive?of having a pilot learn how to learn a proper (and safe) take-off and landing if there is no 10 to shoot for? And not a 0 or 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make a pilot try and make a safe take-off or landing. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Taylor To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add one turn around and center maneuver to the classes that score them. Exit the box down wind then they can make a 180 to landing. Tim --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: From: George W.Kennie Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM #yiv1979162847 UNKNOWN { FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma;} #yiv1979162847 UNKNOWN { FONT-FAMILY:inherit;} #yiv1979162847 UNKNOWN { MARGIN:1in 1.25in;} #yiv1979162847 #yiv380045516 P.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv1979162847 #yiv380045516 LI.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv1979162847 #yiv380045516 DIV.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv1979162847 #yiv380045516 P.MsoNormalIndent { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt 0.5in;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv1979162847 #yiv380045516 LI.MsoNormalIndent { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt 0.5in;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv1979162847 #yiv380045516 DIV.MsoNormalIndent { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt 0.5in;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv1979162847 #yiv380045516 P.MsoAutoSig { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv1979162847 #yiv380045516 LI.MsoAutoSig { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv1979162847 #yiv380045516 DIV.MsoAutoSig { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv1979162847 #yiv380045516 SPAN.EmailStyle15 { COLOR:navy;} #yiv1979162847 #yiv380045516 DIV.Section1 { } I think that dropping the scoring of? TOs and LGs with the intent of reducing risk will be only minimally effective. There?are always going to be individuals who will experience difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many times they go around. I can think of individuals who would include me in the group. ? G.? ? ? ? ? ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: bob at toprudder.com ; General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs You make a good argument for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have aborted landings more than once. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Bob Richards Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to?dangerous situations when they would probably have been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation. And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had flown pattern for several years. I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC. JM2CW Bob R. --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. ? All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint. G.? _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vanputte at cox.net Tue Mar 3 09:27:21 2009 From: vanputte at cox.net (Ronald Van Putte) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 18:27:21 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions In-Reply-To: <02bf01c99c1c$41b2e430$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst><7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER><87C8916B96DB4606A04580E55D82D59F@CYBERPOWER><020401c99c0e$9e8f0ca0$dbad25e0$@com><028401c99c15$e3c36710$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> <6792ef120903030806t59cf370w9a6b7335133f8d1@mail.gmail.com> <02bf01c99c1c$41b2e430$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Message-ID: <36FEE54E-24F9-4397-8B76-36DDEA738757@cox.net> Keith's tongue was so far in his cheek when he wrote that last e- mail, I'm afraid he must have hurt himself. Ron On Mar 3, 2009, at 10:22 AM, billglaze wrote: > Keith: > With all due respect, (and I have an idea that lots of folks may do > it your way, occasionally,) for years we have been trying to get > around the "impression" aspect of judging, It's hard to do, but > that's why, (I believe) we have such detailed maneuver descriptions > in the rules. (Again, my idea.) If this impression judging is > extended, it could, in theory, be used for all judged maneuvers by > some folks. Or so it seems to me. I understand the difficulty, > and perhaps impossibility, of absolutely tying down each and every > little thing. I doubt, in fact, that it's possible. But I feel > that we should still try; each attempt brings us a little closer to > the absolute. > The above is purely my opinion, and is subject to being revoked > without notice! > Bill Glaze > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Keith Hoard > To: General pattern discussion > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 11:06 AM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions > > I would just give a score based on my IMPRESSION of the > landing. . . it it looks good, then a 9 - 9.5 - or 10 depending on > how I felt the pilots flight went prior to the landing and other > previous flights I have judged. > > If anyone presses me afterward, I will just claim the "smooth and > graceful" clause in the AMA rulebook. . . that covers everything!!! > > On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 9:36 AM, billglaze > wrote: > Don: > There are times when for one reason or another, the field is > unmarked with a landing zone, and the CD announces that the LZ is > the entire runway, making the LZ and the LA the same. That's what > leads to doubt in judging landings. At least in my case, and, > apparently, other folks also. And, like Georgie, I've also seen > the 2 meter requirement mentioned; can't put my finger on it right > now, but I've seen it in some official document. > Bill Glaze > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Don Ramsey > To: 'General pattern discussion' > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 AM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions > > I just check all the PowerPoint presentations on the website and > they all say the same thing. LANDING AREA: the entire defined > runway. LANDING ZONE is 30 m long and normally the width of the > runway BUT not more than 30 M wide. > > > Georgie, the landing never has been required to be within 2 meters > of center for maximum points. As long as I was judging chairman > (and before) it was 30 meters centered on the judges. Landing in > that area could score max points. (The takeoff should lift off > within 2 meters of center for max points). > > > There is a lot of times when the aircraft may stop within 10 meters > after landing and there are many times when it may not. For > instance, grass runway with high grass or a smooth cement runway > and no wind. The intent of the rule was to allow max points for > either case. I?ve flown in some contests where if you landed in the > landing zone (for max points) it was almost impossible to keep the > plane from exiting the end of the runway. Solution: land about 10 > meters before center, roll 10 meters and be finished, then don?t > worry about running off the end. > > > Don > > > > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca- > discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of George W.Kennie > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:23 AM > To: General pattern discussion > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions > > > # 2 screw-up !!!! It's not "roll to a stop within 15 meters", > it's 10 meters, but the "stop" is still the elementle crux, I > think. If it says " no downgrade if the model rolls to a stop > within 10 meters" doesn't that infer that if the model continues > to roll beyond that distance it becomews a downgradeable offence > (1/2pt +)? > > > And if it's not a centered maneuver, where'd we come up with the > axiom " for maximum landing points, touchdown should occur < 2 > meters either side of the centerline"? Is that FAI ? Did I make it > up? Am I totally losing it? How the heck is anyone expected to keep > all this stuff straight? > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: John Konneker > > To: Discussion List > > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:32 AM > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions > > > Cut and pasted from the AMA website this morning: > Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point > increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters > from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, > dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, > within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete > once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters > or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after > that point. > The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular > across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the > landing zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case > shall exceed 30 meters. Landing is not a centered maneuver and > there is no downgrade for displacement of the touchdown point left > or right from center as long as the landing is in the landing zone. > If the touchdown is within the runway but not in the landing zone > it should be downgraded proportionate to the distance outside the > landing zone. The Contest Director may designate any landing zone > appropriate to the field if safety considerations dictate. If the > landing zone is anything other than standard it should be > thoroughly discussed with the pilots and judges before flying is > started and no downgrade shall be applied due to the touchdown in > the non-standard landing zone. > Emphasis added by me. This of course for AMA classes. > JLK > > > > From: geobet4 at verizon.net > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:15:23 -0500 > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions > > > Bill, > > > This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has > responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned > my lesson, here goes. > > > In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if > the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial > word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How > many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one > meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly > straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for > a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, > a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" > stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable > offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility > to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just > above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe > somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover > stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. > > > If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above > requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a > hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless > and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers > usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the > landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and > would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. > > > And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter > and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs > correcting. > > > Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and > should be so received. > > > G. > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: billglaze > > To: nsrca- discussion > > Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM > > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions > > > At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: > > > I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and > I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. > > On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic > zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had > people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost > interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and > it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. > > Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls > immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is > the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. > > Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states > for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the > same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but > I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been > known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more > knowledgeable brains on the list! > > thanks > > Bill Glaze > > NSRCA 2388 > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. > We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. > SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. > The Professional version does not have this message. > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. > We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. > SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. > The Professional version does not have this message. > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > -- > > Keith Hoard > Collierville, TN > khoard at gmail.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ed_alt at hotmail.com Tue Mar 3 09:31:19 2009 From: ed_alt at hotmail.com (Ed Alt) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 18:31:19 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs References: <75513.14354.qm@web80505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sounds like you guys should tap the club budget for a rake and a large box of Hefty bags. ----- Original Message ----- From: John Pavlick To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 1:11 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs Oh yeah, it's still a good idea to run from the scale airplanes! Especially at my club field! LOL John Pavlick --- On Tue, 3/3/09, J Shu wrote: From: J Shu Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 4:25 PM I'm certainly not THE expert... I'm just going by my observations of pattern now to pattern when I was a kid. Like Stuart said, nothing beat a nose high take-off or landing down the centerline... and not many could do it. At least back then the only planes I remember running from weren't pattern planes, but scale planes! I used to always lose bets with my brother for the best take-off and landings cause his Ugly Stick was the perfect plane for that. He would line it up on the center line and roll down the runway, lift the nose just before the judges and break ground just after... 10. And then do the same thing for landing and get 10's there too. But his loops always ended up in the next county so I won the flying bets. FAI doesn't need to have scored take-offs and landings... we don't have time for it. But I don't see why AMA shouldn't be scored (and taught) on take-offs and landings. If you're a good pilot, then these should be freebie points for the taking. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: George W.Kennie To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:46 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs There you have it from THE expert !!!!!!!!!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: J Shu To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 6:06 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'd much rather see take-offs and landings be judged. What's the incentive of having a pilot learn how to learn a proper (and safe) take-off and landing if there is no 10 to shoot for? And not a 0 or 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make a pilot try and make a safe take-off or landing. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Taylor To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add one turn around and center maneuver to the classes that score them. Exit the box down wind then they can make a 180 to landing. Tim --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: From: George W.Kennie Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM I think that dropping the scoring of TOs and LGs with the intent of reducing risk will be only minimally effective. There are always going to be individuals who will experience difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many times they go around. I can think of individuals who would include me in the group. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: bob at toprudder.com ; General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs You make a good argument for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have aborted landings more than once. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Bob Richards Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to dangerous situations when they would probably have been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation. And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had flown pattern for several years. I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC. JM2CW Bob R. --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint. G. ---------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------- I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. -------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerry at buddengineering.com Tue Mar 3 09:47:27 2009 From: jerry at buddengineering.com (Budd Engineering) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 18:47:27 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: References: <316631.61743.qm@web62304.mail.re1.yahoo.com><6C3316C0EFFA4F19BF61648035F842D7@UncleJasPC> <959EE69B-7532-4978-B78E-B4219E9298E4@buddengineering.com> Message-ID: <7D60464B-67D3-4AC9-9A64-928EC802E827@buddengineering.com> Ok, that makes sense. Sounds like we should consider dropping the scoring of TO's & L's in Masters to save time since Masters always runs long at our contests? Hey to RVP! - What's the over/under on how long this thread will run? I figure if we can get Keith H. involved we can keep it going for a week or more! : ) Jerry Sent from my iPhone On Mar 3, 2009, at 10:07 AM, "J Shu" wrote: > Because it takes time to make a perfect take-off and landing, and > currently the time stops after the half roll after the 45-downs. We > wouldn't have enough time unless the time limit was raised. > > Regards, > Jason > www.shulmanaviation.com > www.composite-arf.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Budd Engineering > To: General pattern discussion > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:56 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > Why would FAI have less time for scored TO's/L's than any other > class? With the exception of Sportsman (and possibly Intermediate), > FAI flys the shortest sequence. Masters in particular takes way > longer. > > > Jerry > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 3, 2009, at 8:25 AM, "J Shu" wrote: > > > I'm certainly not THE expert... I'm just going by my observations > of pattern now to pattern when I was a kid. Like Stuart said, > nothing beat a nose high take-off or landing down the centerline... > and not many could do it. At least back then the only planes I > remember running from weren't pattern planes, but scale planes! > > I used to always lose bets with my brother for the best take-off > and landings cause his Ugly Stick was the perfect plane for that. He > would line it up on the center line and roll down the runway, lift > the nose just before the judges and break ground just after... 10. > And then do the same thing for landing and get 10's there too. But > his loops always ended up in the next county so I won the flying bets. > > FAI doesn't need to have scored take-offs and landings... we > don't have time for it. But I don't see why AMA shouldn't be scored > (and taught) on take-offs and landings. If you're a good pilot, then > these should be freebie points for the taking. > > Regards, > Jason > www.shulmanaviation.com > www.composite-arf.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: George W.Kennie > To: General pattern discussion > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:46 AM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > There you have it from THE expert !!!!!!!!!!!! > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: J Shu > To: General pattern discussion > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 6:06 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > I'd much rather see take-offs and landings be judged. What's > the incentive of having a pilot learn how to learn a proper (and > safe) take-off and landing if there is no 10 to shoot for? And not a > 0 or 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make > a pilot try and make a safe take-off or landing. > > Regards, > Jason > www.shulmanaviation.com > www.composite-arf.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tim Taylor > To: General pattern discussion > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add > one turn around and center maneuver to the classes that score them. > Exit the box down wind then they can make a 180 to landing. > Tim > > --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie > wrote: > > From: George W.Kennie > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > To: "General pattern discussion" > > Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM > > > I think that dropping the scoring of TOs and LGs > with the intent of reducing risk will be only minimally effective. > There are always going to be individuals who will experience > difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no > matter how many times they go around. I can think of individuals who > would include me in the group. > > G. > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: J N Hiller > To: bob at toprudder.com ; General pattern discussion > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and > Takeoffs > > > You make a good argument for dropping takeoff and > landing scoring. I have aborted landings more than once. > > Jim > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > ]On Behalf Of Bob Richards > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM > To: General pattern discussion > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't > think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the > maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/ > spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches > pushed to dangerous situations when they would probably have been > aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the > airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one > plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and > the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot > during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person > in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, > when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced > the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no > point did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, > anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are > being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation. > > > And, no, niether situation involved someone > in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both > contestants that had flown pattern for several years. > > > I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and > landings in IMAC. > > > JM2CW > > > Bob R. > > > > --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie > wrote: > > > I don't feel the same way as John on the > landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. > > > > All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform > competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have > developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our > command. To achieve this control further requires intense > concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are > many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required > by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the > airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete > and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in > my viewpoint. > > > G. > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. > We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. > SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to > date. > The Professional version does not have this message. > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > --- > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > --- > --- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. > We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. > SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. > The Professional version does not have this message. > > > > --- > --- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > --- > --- > --- > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From jshulman at cfl.rr.com Tue Mar 3 09:54:14 2009 From: jshulman at cfl.rr.com (J Shu) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 18:54:14 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: <7D60464B-67D3-4AC9-9A64-928EC802E827@buddengineering.com> References: <316631.61743.qm@web62304.mail.re1.yahoo.com><6C3316C0EFFA4F19BF61648035F842D7@UncleJasPC><959EE69B-7532-4978-B78E-B4219E9298E4@buddengineering.com> <7D60464B-67D3-4AC9-9A64-928EC802E827@buddengineering.com> Message-ID: See I was thinking that a few Masters pilots should move up to FAI and help grow FAI...lol. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Budd Engineering" To: "General pattern discussion" Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 1:46 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > Ok, that makes sense. Sounds like we should consider dropping the > scoring of TO's & L's in Masters to save time since Masters always > runs long at our contests? > > Hey to RVP! - What's the over/under on how long this thread will run? > I figure if we can get Keith H. involved we can keep it going for a > week or more! : ) > > Jerry > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 3, 2009, at 10:07 AM, "J Shu" wrote: > >> Because it takes time to make a perfect take-off and landing, and >> currently the time stops after the half roll after the 45-downs. We >> wouldn't have enough time unless the time limit was raised. >> >> Regards, >> Jason >> www.shulmanaviation.com >> www.composite-arf.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Budd Engineering >> To: General pattern discussion >> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:56 PM >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs >> >> >> Why would FAI have less time for scored TO's/L's than any other >> class? With the exception of Sportsman (and possibly Intermediate), >> FAI flys the shortest sequence. Masters in particular takes way >> longer. >> >> >> Jerry >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Mar 3, 2009, at 8:25 AM, "J Shu" wrote: >> >> >> I'm certainly not THE expert... I'm just going by my observations >> of pattern now to pattern when I was a kid. Like Stuart said, >> nothing beat a nose high take-off or landing down the centerline... >> and not many could do it. At least back then the only planes I >> remember running from weren't pattern planes, but scale planes! >> >> I used to always lose bets with my brother for the best take-off >> and landings cause his Ugly Stick was the perfect plane for that. He >> would line it up on the center line and roll down the runway, lift >> the nose just before the judges and break ground just after... 10. >> And then do the same thing for landing and get 10's there too. But >> his loops always ended up in the next county so I won the flying bets. >> >> FAI doesn't need to have scored take-offs and landings... we >> don't have time for it. But I don't see why AMA shouldn't be scored >> (and taught) on take-offs and landings. If you're a good pilot, then >> these should be freebie points for the taking. >> >> Regards, >> Jason >> www.shulmanaviation.com >> www.composite-arf.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: George W.Kennie >> To: General pattern discussion >> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:46 AM >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs >> >> >> There you have it from THE expert !!!!!!!!!!!! >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: J Shu >> To: General pattern discussion >> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 6:06 PM >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs >> >> >> I'd much rather see take-offs and landings be judged. What's >> the incentive of having a pilot learn how to learn a proper (and >> safe) take-off and landing if there is no 10 to shoot for? And not a >> 0 or 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make >> a pilot try and make a safe take-off or landing. >> >> Regards, >> Jason >> www.shulmanaviation.com >> www.composite-arf.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Tim Taylor >> To: General pattern discussion >> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 PM >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs >> >> >> I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add >> one turn around and center maneuver to the classes that score them. >> Exit the box down wind then they can make a 180 to landing. >> Tim >> >> --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie > > wrote: >> >> From: George W.Kennie >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs >> To: "General pattern discussion" > > >> Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM >> >> >> I think that dropping the scoring of TOs and LGs >> with the intent of reducing risk will be only minimally effective. >> There are always going to be individuals who will experience >> difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no >> matter how many times they go around. I can think of individuals who >> would include me in the group. >> >> G. >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: J N Hiller >> To: bob at toprudder.com ; General pattern discussion >> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and >> Takeoffs >> >> >> You make a good argument for dropping takeoff and >> landing scoring. I have aborted landings more than once. >> >> Jim >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org >> ]On Behalf Of Bob Richards >> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM >> To: General pattern discussion >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs >> >> >> I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't >> think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the >> maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/ >> spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches >> pushed to dangerous situations when they would probably have been >> aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the >> airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one >> plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and >> the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot >> during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person >> in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, >> when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced >> the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no >> point did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, >> anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are >> being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation. >> >> >> And, no, niether situation involved someone >> in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both >> contestants that had flown pattern for several years. >> >> >> I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and >> landings in IMAC. >> >> >> JM2CW >> >> >> Bob R. >> >> >> >> --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie > > wrote: >> >> >> I don't feel the same way as John on the >> landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. >> >> >> >> All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform >> competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have >> developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our >> command. To achieve this control further requires intense >> concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are >> many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required >> by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the >> airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete >> and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in >> my viewpoint. >> >> >> G. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. >> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. >> SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to >> date. >> The Professional version does not have this message. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> >> --- >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> >> --- >> --- >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. >> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. >> SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. >> The Professional version does not have this message. >> >> >> >> --- >> --- >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> >> --- >> --- >> --- >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > From duane.e.beck at comcast.net Tue Mar 3 09:55:38 2009 From: duane.e.beck at comcast.net (Duane Beck) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 18:55:38 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Triangulation Trimming article Message-ID: <1944053639.1941221236106537321.JavaMail.root@sz0056a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Does anyone happen to know which K-Factor issue?has Hebert's article on Triangulation Trimming?? I tried looking for it but haven't?found it yet. I have a new airplane that will need trimming soon.? Thanks. Duane -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From donramsey at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 10:16:19 2009 From: donramsey at gmail.com (Don Ramsey) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 19:16:19 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions In-Reply-To: References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> <7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER> <87C8916B96DB4606A04580E55D82D59F@CYBERPOWER> <020401c99c0e$9e8f0ca0$dbad25e0$@com> <028401c99c15$e3c36710$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Message-ID: <02a701c99c34$855432d0$8ffc9870$@com> I just read the rule on takeoff and see where it might cause some confusion. The intent of the takeoff rule was for the model to lift off within 2 of center (that?s centered on the judges). From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Budd Engineering Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:44 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions IIRC the reference to 2 meters is for when there is a runway centerline in use, not to whether the TO/landing is centered on the pilot. Jerry Sent from my iPhone On Mar 3, 2009, at 7:36 AM, "billglaze" wrote: Don: There are times when for one reason or another, the field is unmarked with a landing zone, and the CD announces that the LZ is the entire runway, making the LZ and the LA the same. That's what leads to doubt in judging landings. At least in my case, and, apparently, other folks also. And, like Georgie, I've also seen the 2 meter requirement mentioned; can't put my finger on it right now, but I've seen it in some official document. Bill Glaze ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Ramsey To: 'General pattern discussion' Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions I just check all the PowerPoint presentations on the website and they all say the same thing. LANDING AREA: the entire defined runway. LANDING ZONE is 30 m long and normally the width of the runway BUT not more than 30 M wide. Georgie, the landing never has been required to be within 2 meters of center for maximum points. As long as I was judging chairman (and before) it was 30 meters centered on the judges. Landing in that area could score max points. (The takeoff should lift off within 2 meters of center for max points). There is a lot of times when the aircraft may stop within 10 meters after landing and there are many times when it may not. For instance, grass runway with high grass or a smooth cement runway and no wind. The intent of the rule was to allow max points for either case. I?ve flown in some contests where if you landed in the landing zone (for max points) it was almost impossible to keep the plane from exiting the end of the runway. Solution: land about 10 meters before center, roll 10 meters and be finished, then don?t worry about running off the end. Don From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:23 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions # 2 screw-up !!!! It's not "roll to a stop within 15 meters", it's 10 meters, but the "stop" is still the elementle crux, I think. If it says " no downgrade if the model rolls to a stop within 10 meters" doesn't that infer that if the model continues to roll beyond that distance it becomews a downgradeable offence (1/2pt +)? And if it's not a centered maneuver, where'd we come up with the axiom " for maximum landing points, touchdown should occur < 2 meters either side of the centerline"? Is that FAI ? Did I make it up? Am I totally losing it? How the heck is anyone expected to keep all this stuff straight? ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker To: Discussion List Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Cut and pasted from the AMA website this morning: Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the landing zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case shall exceed 30 meters. Landing is not a centered maneuver and there is no downgrade for displacement of the touchdown point left or right from center as long as the landing is in the landing zone. If the touchdown is within the runway but not in the landing zone it should be downgraded proportionate to the distance outside the landing zone. The Contest Director may designate any landing zone appropriate to the field if safety considerations dictate. If the landing zone is anything other than standard it should be thoroughly discussed with the pilots and judges before flying is started and no downgrade shall be applied due to the touchdown in the non-standard landing zone. Emphasis added by me. This of course for AMA classes. JLK _____ From: geobet4 at verizon.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:15:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter . We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter . We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnhiller at earthlink.net Tue Mar 3 10:17:35 2009 From: jnhiller at earthlink.net (J N Hiller) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 19:17:35 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: George I'm late this morning because I had to dig out my collection of old rulebooks to check on the tail wheel first issue you refer to. Yes I suspect there were downgrades and accompanying discussion regarding rules compliance about the time we started flying conventional gear aircraft. Here is what I found: Prior to the 1990-91 rulebook ? [1988 ? 1989 - P-62 ? Landing ? 2nd & 3rd sentences] "The model flares smoothly to a nose- high attitude, dissipating all flying speed, then smoothly touching the ground, within the landing circle, with the main wheels first, with no bouncing or changes in heading after touch down." "The nose wheel on a tricycle gear should settle gently to the ground after a brief roll out." I suspect in an era of long tail turnaround airplanes with short main gear (by today's standards) tail first landings occurred often if slowed to a nose high attitude, violating the "main wheels first" requirement intended to prevent flying-on a tri-gear aircraft. Rules have always been subject to interpretation as to literal meaning or intent. I actually remember some of the tail first discussions but never got involved. At this point I should add that the NSRCA judge certification program developed since and presented by volunteers has done a superb job in clarify many interpretation questions. Here is what the 1990-91 rulebook has ? [P-66 ? Landing ? 3rd sentence] "The nose wheel on a tricycle gear and the tail wheel on a conventional gear (unless a '"3 point landing" of main and tail wheel touching simultaneously is executed) should settle gently to the ground after a brief roll out." This sentence remained through the 2002 - 2004 AMA rulebook (last one I have) and can probably be interpreted as disallowing a tail wheel first landing although it was NOT listed as a downgrade. At this point I should add that it is impractical if not impossible to list every conceivable rule violation as a specific downgrade, although this one probably should have been since it identifies and describes the 3 ? point landing allowance for conventional gear aircraft. I should also mention that nearly every rulebook has a change to the landing description. This has been a nearly continuously debated issue for at least 20 years. This is all history now but an interesting look at where we came from. As always if a pilot or judge has a questions regarding rule clarification they should bring them up during the pilots or judges meeting prior to the start of competition. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 5:52 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions I'm with you on the nose high / flying speed relationship. Somewhere in my memory bank there's something regarding a downgrade if the tailwheel touches down first, but I can no longer tell you if it's AMA or FAI related. My problem is that my memory bank does not contain file folders. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 6:58 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions No frustration here. Flying season here is still about a month away. I went to the shop a while to adjust the struts (wing twist) on a new 1/4 scale PA-20 (Pacer) and it occurred to me that excess landing speed would likely violate the nose high requirement (again subjective) prior to any roll out consideration and should have already received a downgrade. I will probably get in trouble for this but here goes. Nose high / angle of attack v/s flying speed as you know is relative to how much elevator is being held and throttle setting. Only the pilot really knows if he could have or should have landed slower, however there is no doubt if the tail wheel rolls on first. I have landed with excessive speed many times before someone here suggested using one of the sliders to set flying idle reserving the stick trim for absolute low idle. If you roll it on gently and don't hit a bump it don't bounce and slows nicely on grass, however asphalt is a different story. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 1:50 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Jim, I think I'm finally catching up to your thought process. Boy, you must be frustrated ! ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:28 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions That's the issue I was trying to open. "Flying Speed" = What? Judge perception I guess! Call it like you see it until it's more defined or dropped. One could always ask for a clarification during the pilot's and or judge's meeting. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:14 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Jim, I finally see the light. I've been too focused on the line in the PPP which is incomplete. Thinking that the word "stop" was the crucial point it now becomes clear that the emphasis is really meant to be focused on the word "or", and understanding that makes it clear that,like Chris says, after the 10 meter roll it's fini ! But my head is still fighting me. What if the aircraft at no time slows below flying speed, comes in and makes a LZ touchdown and proceeds to roll for 100 feet without becoming airborne or flipping over? Clarification? Jim? Chris? anybody? G. ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:31 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Hi George and Bill. (More have posted since I started this but here it is anyway) Here is the first paragraph from AMA RCA-25. Probably not changed since I saved it on 2-3-09. Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. Looks like there is some discrepancy here. We will probably here more on this. "slowed below flying speed AND rolled 10 meters" could be interpreted as a requirement that the speed be below flying speed (subjective) within 10 meters. Thirty years ago flying speed probably meant something but most modern pattern airplanes are capable of flying speed without ground speed if the nose is high enough, unless there is a documented distinction between flying and hovering. Is landing with power greater than idle allowed? How much power can be used to 'drag it in nose high? Most can roll the tail wheel on before the mains, which commits the airplane to "Below Flying Speed", at least without a bump / bounce. "10 meters OR comes to a stop" would indicate that the landing is complete after the 10-meter roll out without having to come to a stop. If a stop were required I would expect "AND" to be used. I have no opinion on this. I just try to get a decent landing near the center and accept whatever score is given. You should see some of the landings at a soaring contest where the pilot if focused on maximum landing score. Got to go, be back later. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 8:15 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter . We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnhiller at earthlink.net Tue Mar 3 10:23:17 2009 From: jnhiller at earthlink.net (J N Hiller) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 19:23:17 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: George I'm late this morning because I had to dig out my collection of old rulebooks to check on the tail wheel first issue you refer to. Yes I suspect there were downgrades and accompanying discussion regarding rules compliance about the time we started flying conventional gear aircraft. Here is what I found: Prior to the 1990-91 rulebook ? [1988 ? 1989 - P-62 ? Landing ? 2nd & 3rd sentences] "The model flares smoothly to a nose- high attitude, dissipating all flying speed, then smoothly touching the ground, within the landing circle, with the main wheels first, with no bouncing or changes in heading after touch down." "The nose wheel on a tricycle gear should settle gently to the ground after a brief roll out." I suspect in an era of long tail turnaround airplanes with short main gear (by today's standards) tail first landings occurred often if slowed to a nose high attitude, violating the "main wheels first" requirement intended to prevent flying-on a tri-gear aircraft. Rules have always been subject to interpretation as to literal meaning or intent. I actually remember some of the tail first discussions but never got involved. At this point I should add that the NSRCA judge certification program developed since and presented by volunteers has done a superb job in clarify many interpretation questions. Here is what the 1990-91 rulebook has ? [P-66 ? Landing ? 3rd sentence] "The nose wheel on a tricycle gear and the tail wheel on a conventional gear (unless a '"3 point landing" of main and tail wheel touching simultaneously is executed) should settle gently to the ground after a brief roll out." This sentence remained through the 2002 - 2004 AMA rulebook (last one I have) and can probably be interpreted as disallowing a tail wheel first landing although it was NOT listed as a downgrade. At this point I should add that it is impractical if not impossible to list every conceivable rule violation as a specific downgrade, although this one probably should have been since it identifies and describes the 3 ? point landing allowance for conventional gear aircraft. I should also mention that nearly every rulebook has a change to the landing description. This has been a nearly continuously debated issue for at least 20 years. This is all history now but an interesting look at where we came from. As always if a pilot or judge has a questions regarding rule clarification they should bring them up during the pilots or judges meeting prior to the start of competition. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 5:52 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions I'm with you on the nose high / flying speed relationship. Somewhere in my memory bank there's something regarding a downgrade if the tailwheel touches down first, but I can no longer tell you if it's AMA or FAI related. My problem is that my memory bank does not contain file folders. G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerry at buddengineering.com Tue Mar 3 10:23:55 2009 From: jerry at buddengineering.com (Budd Engineering) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 19:23:55 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: References: <316631.61743.qm@web62304.mail.re1.yahoo.com><6C3316C0EFFA4F19BF61648035F842D7@UncleJasPC><959EE69B-7532-4978-B78E-B4219E9298E4@buddengineering.com> <7D60464B-67D3-4AC9-9A64-928EC802E827@buddengineering.com> Message-ID: Already been there, done that, back in the late 80's, early 90's when the entire US Team and nearly half the TOC field lived in D7 (and most of them went to the local meets too!). Moved back in 99 when they added an extra pattern to FAI and I didn't have time to practice one sequence, let alone two. Quite happy where I am for now. Maybe you should fly Masters with us once in a while? : ) Thx, Jerry Sent from my iPhone On Mar 3, 2009, at 10:54 AM, "J Shu" wrote: > See I was thinking that a few Masters pilots should move up to FAI > and help grow FAI...lol. > > Regards, > Jason > www.shulmanaviation.com > www.composite-arf.com >>> >>> From pcosky at comcast.net Tue Mar 3 10:27:24 2009 From: pcosky at comcast.net (Pete Cosky) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 19:27:24 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Triangulation Trimming article References: <1944053639.1941221236106537321.JavaMail.root@sz0056a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <005101c99c36$0d0e0740$4658550a@usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> May '08. I can extract just those pages if you want me to e-mail them to you. ----- Original Message ----- From: Duane Beck To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 1:55 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Triangulation Trimming article Does anyone happen to know which K-Factor issue has Hebert's article on Triangulation Trimming? I tried looking for it but haven't found it yet. I have a new airplane that will need trimming soon. Thanks. Duane ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnhiller at earthlink.net Tue Mar 3 10:30:24 2009 From: jnhiller at earthlink.net (J N Hiller) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 19:30:24 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: <75513.14354.qm@web80505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hay, now I'm offended. Not all scale pilots have wild takeoffs. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of John Pavlick Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:11 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs Oh yeah, it's still a good idea to run from the scale airplanes! Especially at my club field! LOL John Pavlick --- On Tue, 3/3/09, J Shu wrote: From: J Shu Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 4:25 PM I'm certainly not THE expert... I'm just going by my observations of pattern now to pattern when I was a kid. Like Stuart said, nothing beat a nose high take-off or landing down the centerline... and not many could do it. At least back then the only planes I remember running from weren't pattern planes, but scale planes! I used to always lose bets with my brother for the best take-off and landings cause his Ugly Stick was the perfect plane for that. He would line it up on the center line and roll down the runway, lift the nose just before the judges and break ground just after... 10. And then do the same thing for landing and get 10's there too. But his loops always ended up in the next county so I won the flying bets. FAI doesn't need to have scored take-offs and landings... we don't have time for it. But I don't see why AMA shouldn't be scored (and taught) on take-offs and landings. If you're a good pilot, then these should be freebie points for the taking. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: George W.Kennie To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:46 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs There you have it from THE expert !!!!!!!!!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: J Shu To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 6:06 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'd much rather see take-offs and landings be judged. What's the incentive of having a pilot learn how to learn a proper (and safe) take-off and landing if there is no 10 to shoot for? And not a 0 or 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make a pilot try and make a safe take-off or landing. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Taylor To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add one turn around and center maneuver to the classes that score them. Exit the box down wind then they can make a 180 to landing. Tim --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie < geobet4 at verizon.net > wrote: From: George W.Kennie < geobet4 at verizon.net > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM I think that dropping the scoring of TOs and LGs with the intent of reducing risk will be only minimally effective. There are always going to be individuals who will experience difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many times they go around. I can think of individuals who would include me in the group. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: bob at toprudder.com ; General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs You make a good argument for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have aborted landings more than once. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Bob Richards Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to dangerous situations when they would probably have been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation. And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had flown pattern for several years. I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC. JM2CW Bob R. --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint. G. _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter . We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter . We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnhiller at earthlink.net Tue Mar 3 10:39:03 2009 From: jnhiller at earthlink.net (J N Hiller) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 19:39:03 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Isn't the bag put in the airplane? It'll be there when you need it. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Ed Alt Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:31 AM To: jpavlick at idseng.com; General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs Sounds like you guys should tap the club budget for a rake and a large box of Hefty bags. ----- Original Message ----- From: John Pavlick To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 1:11 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs Oh yeah, it's still a good idea to run from the scale airplanes! Especially at my club field! LOL John Pavlick --- On Tue, 3/3/09, J Shu < jshulman at cfl.rr.com > wrote: From: J Shu < jshulman at cfl.rr.com > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs To: "General pattern discussion" < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 4:25 PM I'm certainly not THE expert... I'm just going by my observations of pattern now to pattern when I was a kid. Like Stuart said, nothing beat a nose high take-off or landing down the centerline... and not many could do it. At least back then the only planes I remember running from weren't pattern planes, but scale planes! I used to always lose bets with my brother for the best take-off and landings cause his Ugly Stick was the perfect plane for that. He would line it up on the center line and roll down the runway, lift the nose just before the judges and break ground just after... 10. And then do the same thing for landing and get 10's there too. But his loops always ended up in the next county so I won the flying bets. FAI doesn't need to have scored take-offs and landings... we don't have time for it. But I don't see why AMA shouldn't be scored (and taught) on take-offs and landings. If you're a good pilot, then these should be freebie points for the taking. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnhiller at earthlink.net Tue Mar 3 10:41:54 2009 From: jnhiller at earthlink.net (J N Hiller) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 19:41:54 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry about the duplication. I thought the first one was too big so I cleared the old stuff and resent it. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of J N Hiller Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 11:23 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions George I'm late this morning because I had to dig out my collection of old rulebooks to check on the tail wheel first issue you refer to. Yes I suspect there were downgrades and accompanying discussion regarding rules compliance about the time we started flying conventional gear aircraft. Here is what I found: Prior to the 1990-91 rulebook ? [1988 ? 1989 - P-62 ? Landing ? 2nd & 3rd sentences] "The model flares smoothly to a nose- high attitude, dissipating all flying speed, then smoothly touching the ground, within the landing circle, with the main wheels first, with no bouncing or changes in heading after touch down." "The nose wheel on a tricycle gear should settle gently to the ground after a brief roll out." I suspect in an era of long tail turnaround airplanes with short main gear (by today's standards) tail first landings occurred often if slowed to a nose high attitude, violating the "main wheels first" requirement intended to prevent flying-on a tri-gear aircraft. Rules have always been subject to interpretation as to literal meaning or intent. I actually remember some of the tail first discussions but never got involved. At this point I should add that the NSRCA judge certification program developed since and presented by volunteers has done a superb job in clarify many interpretation questions. Here is what the 1990-91 rulebook has ? [P-66 ? Landing ? 3rd sentence] "The nose wheel on a tricycle gear and the tail wheel on a conventional gear (unless a '"3 point landing" of main and tail wheel touching simultaneously is executed) should settle gently to the ground after a brief roll out." This sentence remained through the 2002 - 2004 AMA rulebook (last one I have) and can probably be interpreted as disallowing a tail wheel first landing although it was NOT listed as a downgrade. At this point I should add that it is impractical if not impossible to list every conceivable rule violation as a specific downgrade, although this one probably should have been since it identifies and describes the 3 ? point landing allowance for conventional gear aircraft. I should also mention that nearly every rulebook has a change to the landing description. This has been a nearly continuously debated issue for at least 20 years. This is all history now but an interesting look at where we came from. As always if a pilot or judge has a questions regarding rule clarification they should bring them up during the pilots or judges meeting prior to the start of competition. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 5:52 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions I'm with you on the nose high / flying speed relationship. Somewhere in my memory bank there's something regarding a downgrade if the tailwheel touches down first, but I can no longer tell you if it's AMA or FAI related. My problem is that my memory bank does not contain file folders. G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vanputte at cox.net Tue Mar 3 11:08:29 2009 From: vanputte at cox.net (Ron Van Putte) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 20:08:29 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: <7D60464B-67D3-4AC9-9A64-928EC802E827@buddengineering.com> References: <316631.61743.qm@web62304.mail.re1.yahoo.com><6C3316C0EFFA4F19BF61648035F842D7@UncleJasPC> <959EE69B-7532-4978-B78E-B4219E9298E4@buddengineering.com> <7D60464B-67D3-4AC9-9A64-928EC802E827@buddengineering.com> Message-ID: <297C7AA7-2BCE-4E85-B8D5-08857F873309@cox.net> Yeah and, if things get slow, we can always start/restart one on spins and snaps. Ron On Mar 3, 2009, at 12:46 PM, Budd Engineering wrote: > Ok, that makes sense. Sounds like we should consider dropping the > scoring of TO's & L's in Masters to save time since Masters always > runs long at our contests? > > Hey to RVP! - What's the over/under on how long this thread will > run? I figure if we can get Keith H. involved we can keep it going > for a week or more! : ) > > Jerry > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 3, 2009, at 10:07 AM, "J Shu" wrote: > >> Because it takes time to make a perfect take-off and landing, and >> currently the time stops after the half roll after the 45-downs. >> We wouldn't have enough time unless the time limit was raised. >> >> Regards, >> Jason >> www.shulmanaviation.com >> www.composite-arf.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Budd Engineering >> To: General pattern discussion >> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:56 PM >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs >> >> >> Why would FAI have less time for scored TO's/L's than any other >> class? With the exception of Sportsman (and possibly >> Intermediate), FAI flys the shortest sequence. Masters in >> particular takes way longer. >> >> >> Jerry >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Mar 3, 2009, at 8:25 AM, "J Shu" wrote: >> >> >> I'm certainly not THE expert... I'm just going by my >> observations of pattern now to pattern when I was a kid. Like >> Stuart said, nothing beat a nose high take-off or landing down the >> centerline... and not many could do it. At least back then the >> only planes I remember running from weren't pattern planes, but >> scale planes! >> >> I used to always lose bets with my brother for the best take- >> off and landings cause his Ugly Stick was the perfect plane for >> that. He would line it up on the center line and roll down the >> runway, lift the nose just before the judges and break ground just >> after... 10. And then do the same thing for landing and get 10's >> there too. But his loops always ended up in the next county so I >> won the flying bets. >> >> FAI doesn't need to have scored take-offs and landings... we >> don't have time for it. But I don't see why AMA shouldn't be >> scored (and taught) on take-offs and landings. If you're a good >> pilot, then these should be freebie points for the taking. >> >> Regards, >> Jason >> www.shulmanaviation.com >> www.composite-arf.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: George W.Kennie >> To: General pattern discussion >> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:46 AM >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs >> >> >> There you have it from THE expert !!!!!!!!!!!! >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: J Shu >> To: General pattern discussion >> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 6:06 PM >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs >> >> >> I'd much rather see take-offs and landings be judged. >> What's the incentive of having a pilot learn how to learn a proper >> (and safe) take-off and landing if there is no 10 to shoot for? >> And not a 0 or 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be scored >> doesn't make a pilot try and make a safe take-off or landing. >> >> Regards, >> Jason >> www.shulmanaviation.com >> www.composite-arf.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Tim Taylor >> To: General pattern discussion >> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 PM >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs >> >> >> I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add >> one turn around and center maneuver to the classes that score >> them. Exit the box down wind then they can make a 180 to landing. >> Tim >> >> --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie >> wrote: >> >> From: George W.Kennie >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and >> Takeoffs >> To: "General pattern discussion" > discussion at lists.nsrca.org> >> Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM >> >> >> I think that dropping the scoring of TOs and LGs >> with the intent of reducing risk will be only minimally effective. >> There are always going to be individuals who will experience >> difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, >> no matter how many times they go around. I can think of >> individuals who would include me in the group. >> >> G. >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: J N Hiller >> To: bob at toprudder.com ; General pattern discussion >> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and >> Takeoffs >> >> >> You make a good argument for dropping takeoff >> and landing scoring. I have aborted landings more than once. >> >> Jim >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org >> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Bob >> Richards >> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM >> To: General pattern discussion >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and >> Takeoffs >> >> >> I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't >> think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the >> maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/ >> spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches >> pushed to dangerous situations when they would probably have been >> aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the >> airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one >> plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, >> and the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the >> pilot during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into >> a person in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the >> ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and the >> pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the >> runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In most >> situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and started >> over, but because they are being judged they keep on pushing a bad >> situation. >> >> >> And, no, niether situation involved someone >> in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both >> contestants that had flown pattern for several years. >> >> >> I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and >> landings in IMAC. >> >> >> JM2CW >> >> >> Bob R. >> >> >> >> --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie >> wrote: >> >> >> I don't feel the same way as John on the >> landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. >> >> >> >> All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform >> competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have >> developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under >> our command. To achieve this control further requires intense >> concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there >> are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration >> required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required >> to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and >> demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that >> is worthy of reward in my viewpoint. >> >> >> G. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca- >> discussion >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. >> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. >> SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to >> date. >> The Professional version does not have this message. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----- >> I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. >> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. >> SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. >> The Professional version does not have this message. >> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --------- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From lightfoot at sc.rr.com Tue Mar 3 11:17:33 2009 From: lightfoot at sc.rr.com (Jay Marshall) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 20:17:33 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Takeoffs & Landings Message-ID: Let's get the logical sequence correct and then start over.. Jay Marshall -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From duane.e.beck at comcast.net Tue Mar 3 11:17:45 2009 From: duane.e.beck at comcast.net (Duane Beck) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 20:17:45 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Triangulation Trimming article In-Reply-To: <005101c99c36$0d0e0740$4658550a@usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Message-ID: <1557274197.1993631236111463716.JavaMail.root@sz0056a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> I'll download the issue.? Thanks. Duane ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Cosky" To: "General pattern discussion" Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 2:27:04 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Triangulation Trimming article ? May '08. I can extract just those pages if you want me to e-mail them to you. ----- Original Message ----- From: Duane Beck To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 1:55 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Triangulation Trimming article Does anyone happen to know which K-Factor issue?has Hebert's article on Triangulation Trimming?? I tried looking for it but haven't?found it yet. I have a new airplane that will need trimming soon.? Thanks. Duane -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpavlick at idseng.com Tue Mar 3 11:21:08 2009 From: jpavlick at idseng.com (John Pavlick) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 20:21:08 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <270988.70105.qm@web80501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> OK, maybe that should only apply to some of the warbird?guys in my club.?I forgot, IMAC birds are "scale" too. :) ? John Pavlick --- On Tue, 3/3/09, J N Hiller wrote: From: J N Hiller Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs To: jpavlick at idseng.com, "General pattern discussion" Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 7:30 PM Hay, now I'm offended. Not all scale pilots have wild takeoffs. Jim ? -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of John Pavlick Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:11 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs ? Oh yeah, it's?still a good idea to run from the scale airplanes! Especially at my club field!? LOL ? John Pavlick --- On Tue, 3/3/09, J Shu wrote: From: J Shu Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 4:25 PM I'm certainly not THE expert... I'm just going by my observations of pattern now to pattern when I was a kid. Like Stuart said, nothing beat a nose high take-off or landing down the centerline... and not many could do it. At least back then the only planes I remember running from weren't pattern planes, but scale planes! ? I used to always lose bets with my brother for the best take-off and landings cause his Ugly Stick was the perfect plane for that. He would line it up on the center line and roll down the runway, lift the nose just before the judges and break ground just after... 10. And then do the same thing for landing and get 10's there too. But his loops always ended up in the next county so I won the flying bets. ? FAI doesn't need to have scored take-offs and landings... we don't have time for it. But I don't see why AMA shouldn't be scored (and taught) on take-offs and landings. If you're a good pilot, then these should be freebie points for the taking. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: George W.Kennie To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:46 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs ? There you have it from THE? expert !!!!!!!!!!!! ? ? ? ----- Original Message ----- From: J Shu To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 6:06 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs ? I'd much rather see take-offs and landings be judged. What's the incentive?of having a pilot learn how to learn a proper (and safe) take-off and landing if there is no 10 to shoot for? And not a 0 or 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make a pilot try and make a safe take-off or landing. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Taylor To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs ? I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add one turn around and center maneuver to the classes that score them. Exit the box down wind then they can make a 180 to landing. Tim --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: From: George W.Kennie Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM I think that dropping the scoring of? TOs and LGs with the intent of reducing risk will be only minimally effective. There?are always going to be individuals who will experience difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many times they go around. I can think of individuals who would include me in the group. ? G.? ? ? ? ? ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: bob at toprudder.com ; General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs ? You make a good argument for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have aborted landings more than once. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Bob Richards Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to?dangerous situations when they would probably have been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation. And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had flown pattern for several years. I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC. JM2CW Bob R. --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. ? All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint. G.? _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ? I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message._______________________________________________NSRCA-discussion mailing listNSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.orghttp://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ? _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ? I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________NSRCA-discussion mailing listNSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.orghttp://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From khoard at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 11:48:33 2009 From: khoard at gmail.com (Keith Hoard) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 20:48:33 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions In-Reply-To: <36FEE54E-24F9-4397-8B76-36DDEA738757@cox.net> References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> <7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER> <87C8916B96DB4606A04580E55D82D59F@CYBERPOWER> <020401c99c0e$9e8f0ca0$dbad25e0$@com> <028401c99c15$e3c36710$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> <6792ef120903030806t59cf370w9a6b7335133f8d1@mail.gmail.com> <02bf01c99c1c$41b2e430$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> <36FEE54E-24F9-4397-8B76-36DDEA738757@cox.net> Message-ID: <6792ef120903031248m61913d96qad8c94407b622a3c@mail.gmail.com> thuu, thuuu, thuuu-uu-thuuu-thhhhuuuuu. . . . On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 12:27 PM, Ronald Van Putte wrote: > Keith's tongue was so far in his cheek when he wrote that last e-mail, I'm > afraid he must have hurt himself. > Ron > > On Mar 3, 2009, at 10:22 AM, billglaze wrote: > > Keith: > With all due respect, (and I have an idea that lots of folks may do it your > way, occasionally,) for years we have been trying to get around the > "impression" aspect of judging, It's hard to do, but that's why, (I > believe) we have such detailed maneuver descriptions in the rules. (Again, > my idea.) If this impression judging is extended, it could, in theory, be > used for all judged maneuvers by some folks. Or so it seems to me. I > understand the difficulty, and perhaps impossibility, of absolutely tying > down each and every little thing. I doubt, in fact, that it's possible. > But I feel that we should still try; each attempt brings us a little closer > to the absolute. > The above is purely my opinion, and is subject to being revoked without > notice! > Bill Glaze > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Keith Hoard > *To:* General pattern discussion > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 03, 2009 11:06 AM > *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions > > I would just give a score based on my IMPRESSION of the landing. . . it it > looks good, then a 9 - 9.5 - or 10 depending on how I felt the pilots flight > went prior to the landing and other previous flights I have judged. > > If anyone presses me afterward, I will just claim the "smooth and graceful" > clause in the AMA rulebook. . . that covers everything!!! > > On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 9:36 AM, billglaze wrote: > >> Don: >> There are times when for one reason or another, the field is unmarked with >> a landing zone, and the CD announces that the LZ is the entire runway, >> making the LZ and the LA the same. That's what leads to doubt in judging >> landings. At least in my case, and, apparently, other folks also. And, >> like Georgie, I've also seen the 2 meter requirement mentioned; can't put my >> finger on it right now, but I've seen it in some official document. >> Bill Glaze >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Don Ramsey >> *To:* 'General pattern discussion' >> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions >> >> I just check all the PowerPoint presentations on the website and they all >> say the same thing. LANDING AREA: the entire defined runway. LANDING >> ZONE is 30 m long and normally the width of the runway BUT not more than 30 >> M wide. >> >> >> Georgie, the landing never has been required to be within 2 meters of >> center for maximum points. As long as I was judging chairman (and >> before) it was 30 meters centered on the judges. Landing in that area >> could score max points. (The takeoff should lift off within 2 meters of >> center for max points). >> >> >> There is a lot of times when the aircraft may stop within 10 meters after >> landing and there are many times when it may not. For instance, grass >> runway with high grass or a smooth cement runway and no wind. The intent >> of the rule was to allow max points for either case. I?ve flown in some >> contests where if you landed in the landing zone (for max points) it was >> almost impossible to keep the plane from exiting the end of the runway. >> Solution: land about 10 meters before center, roll 10 meters and be >> finished, then don?t worry about running off the end. >> >> >> Don >> >> >> >> *From:* nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto: >> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] *On Behalf Of *George W.Kennie >> *Sent:* Monday, March 02, 2009 11:23 AM >> *To:* General pattern discussion >> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions >> >> >> # 2 screw-up !!!! It's not "roll to a stop within 15 meters", it's 10 >> meters, but the "stop" is still the elementle crux, I think. If it says " >> no downgrade if the model rolls to a stop within 10 meters" doesn't that >> infer that if the model continues to roll beyond that distance it becomews a >> downgradeable offence (1/2pt +)? >> >> >> And if it's not a centered maneuver, where'd we come up with the axiom " >> for maximum landing points, touchdown should occur < 2 meters either side of >> the centerline"? Is that FAI ? Did I make it up? Am I totally losing it? >> How the heck is anyone expected to keep all this stuff straight? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> *From:* John Konneker >> >> *To:* Discussion List >> >> *Sent:* Monday, March 02, 2009 11:32 AM >> >> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions >> >> >> Cut and pasted from the AMA website this morning: >> *Landing: *The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments >> from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The >> model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and >> then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver >> should be considered *complete once the plane has slowed below flying >> speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades >> shall be applied after that point*. >> The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular across the >> runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the landing zone is normally >> the width of the runway but in no case shall exceed 30 meters. *Landing >> is not a centered maneuver and there is no downgrade for displacement of the >> touchdown point left or right from center as long as the landing is in the >> landing zone.* If the touchdown is within the runway but not in the >> landing zone it should be downgraded proportionate to the distance outside >> the landing zone. The Contest Director may designate any landing zone >> appropriate to the field if safety considerations dictate. If the landing >> zone is anything other than standard it should be thoroughly discussed with >> the pilots and judges before flying is started and no downgrade shall be >> applied due to the touchdown in the non-standard landing zone. >> Emphasis added by me. This of course for AMA classes. >> JLK >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> From: geobet4 at verizon.net >> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:15:23 -0500 >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions >> >> >> Bill, >> >> >> This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to >> your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. >> >> >> In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model >> rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! >> What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a >> plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then >> proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a >> single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most >> observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" >> stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. >> Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control >> the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed >> controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on >> this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter >> rollout. >> >> >> If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and >> then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or >> whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's >> control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the >> plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel >> e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. >> >> >> And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and >> exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. >> >> >> Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should >> be so received. >> >> >> G. >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> *From:* billglaze >> >> *To:* nsrca- discussion >> >> *Sent:* Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM >> >> *Subject:* [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions >> >> >> At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: >> >> >> I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like >> a question answered that I've had for a long time. >> >> On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? >> I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me >> "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the >> airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the >> score, is their idea. >> >> Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately >> into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? >> I've been called for doing so once. >> >> Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the >> Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. >> Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. >> (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly >> read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the >> list! >> >> thanks >> >> Bill Glaze >> >> NSRCA 2388 >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter >> . >> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. >> SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. >> The Professional version does not have this message. >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter >> . >> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. >> SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. >> The Professional version does not have this message. >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> > > > > -- > > Keith Hoard > Collierville, TN > khoard at gmail.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billglaze at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 3 12:23:28 2009 From: billglaze at bellsouth.net (billglaze) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 21:23:28 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst><7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER><87C8916B96DB4606A04580E55D82D59F@CYBERPOWER><020401c99c0e$9e8f0ca0$dbad25e0$@com><028401c99c15$e3c36710$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst><6792ef120903030806t59cf370w9a6b7335133f8d1@mail.gmail.com><02bf01c99c1c$41b2e430$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst><36FEE54E-24F9-4397-8B76-36DDEA738757@cox.net> <6792ef120903031248m61913d96qad8c94407b622a3c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <046401c99c46$482dba90$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Thanks for the enlightenment. However, with the diversity of opinions, one never knows. Isn't it possible to put up a sign? Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Hoard To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions thuu, thuuu, thuuu-uu-thuuu-thhhhuuuuu. . . . On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 12:27 PM, Ronald Van Putte wrote: Keith's tongue was so far in his cheek when he wrote that last e-mail, I'm afraid he must have hurt himself. Ron On Mar 3, 2009, at 10:22 AM, billglaze wrote: Keith: With all due respect, (and I have an idea that lots of folks may do it your way, occasionally,) for years we have been trying to get around the "impression" aspect of judging, It's hard to do, but that's why, (I believe) we have such detailed maneuver descriptions in the rules. (Again, my idea.) If this impression judging is extended, it could, in theory, be used for all judged maneuvers by some folks. Or so it seems to me. I understand the difficulty, and perhaps impossibility, of absolutely tying down each and every little thing. I doubt, in fact, that it's possible. But I feel that we should still try; each attempt brings us a little closer to the absolute. The above is purely my opinion, and is subject to being revoked without notice! Bill Glaze ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Hoard To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions I would just give a score based on my IMPRESSION of the landing. . . it it looks good, then a 9 - 9.5 - or 10 depending on how I felt the pilots flight went prior to the landing and other previous flights I have judged. If anyone presses me afterward, I will just claim the "smooth and graceful" clause in the AMA rulebook. . . that covers everything!!! On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 9:36 AM, billglaze wrote: Don: There are times when for one reason or another, the field is unmarked with a landing zone, and the CD announces that the LZ is the entire runway, making the LZ and the LA the same. That's what leads to doubt in judging landings. At least in my case, and, apparently, other folks also. And, like Georgie, I've also seen the 2 meter requirement mentioned; can't put my finger on it right now, but I've seen it in some official document. Bill Glaze ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Ramsey To: 'General pattern discussion' Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions I just check all the PowerPoint presentations on the website and they all say the same thing. LANDING AREA: the entire defined runway. LANDING ZONE is 30 m long and normally the width of the runway BUT not more than 30 M wide. Georgie, the landing never has been required to be within 2 meters of center for maximum points. As long as I was judging chairman (and before) it was 30 meters centered on the judges. Landing in that area could score max points. (The takeoff should lift off within 2 meters of center for max points). There is a lot of times when the aircraft may stop within 10 meters after landing and there are many times when it may not. For instance, grass runway with high grass or a smooth cement runway and no wind. The intent of the rule was to allow max points for either case. I?ve flown in some contests where if you landed in the landing zone (for max points) it was almost impossible to keep the plane from exiting the end of the runway. Solution: land about 10 meters before center, roll 10 meters and be finished, then don?t worry about running off the end. Don From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:23 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions # 2 screw-up !!!! It's not "roll to a stop within 15 meters", it's 10 meters, but the "stop" is still the elementle crux, I think. If it says " no downgrade if the model rolls to a stop within 10 meters" doesn't that infer that if the model continues to roll beyond that distance it becomews a downgradeable offence (1/2pt +)? And if it's not a centered maneuver, where'd we come up with the axiom " for maximum landing points, touchdown should occur < 2 meters either side of the centerline"? Is that FAI ? Did I make it up? Am I totally losing it? How the heck is anyone expected to keep all this stuff straight? ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker To: Discussion List Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Cut and pasted from the AMA website this morning: Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the landing zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case shall exceed 30 meters. Landing is not a centered maneuver and there is no downgrade for displacement of the touchdown point left or right from center as long as the landing is in the landing zone. If the touchdown is within the runway but not in the landing zone it should be downgraded proportionate to the distance outside the landing zone. The Contest Director may designate any landing zone appropriate to the field if safety considerations dictate. If the landing zone is anything other than standard it should be thoroughly discussed with the pilots and judges before flying is started and no downgrade shall be applied due to the touchdown in the non-standard landing zone. Emphasis added by me. This of course for AMA classes. JLK ------------------------------------------------------------------ From: geobet4 at verizon.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:15:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 ---------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. -------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vanputte at cox.net Tue Mar 3 12:32:14 2009 From: vanputte at cox.net (Ronald Van Putte) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 21:32:14 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Takeoffs & Landings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: START OVER? Please don't start over. Please. Ron On Mar 3, 2009, at 2:17 PM, Jay Marshall wrote: > Let?s get the logical sequence correct and then start over?. > > > Jay Marshall > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billglaze at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 3 12:50:15 2009 From: billglaze at bellsouth.net (billglaze) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 21:50:15 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Takeoffs & Landings References: Message-ID: <04fb01c99c4a$07c454b0$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Ron: I agree with your communication below. I've become over-scienced on this thread. I believe that because of the avalanche of information, I'll continue as I have for many years judging takeoff's and landings. I'll just keep judging my impression of how good they are. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: Ronald Van Putte To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 4:32 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Takeoffs & Landings START OVER? Please don't start over. Please. Ron On Mar 3, 2009, at 2:17 PM, Jay Marshall wrote: Let?s get the logical sequence correct and then start over?. Jay Marshall _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geobet4 at verizon.net Tue Mar 3 12:56:21 2009 From: geobet4 at verizon.net (George W.Kennie) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 21:56:21 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst><7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER><87C8916B96DB4606A04580E55D82D59F@CYBERPOWER><020401c99c0e$9e8f0ca0$dbad25e0$@com><028401c99c15$e3c36710$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst><6792ef120903030806t59cf370w9a6b7335133f8d1@mail.gmail.com><02bf01c99c1c$41b2e430$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> <032201c99c26$7c74f5e0$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Message-ID: <48B69484FE6E4B9BABF2F5933F14BC97@CYBERPOWER> Boy Bill, I know that a lot of guys are probably fed up with this thread, but I have really enjoyed it. What fantastic ENTERTAINMENT !!!!!!! I think some of these people would break your TV if they caught you watching Saturday Nite Live. And Jim, You've come forward with more due diligence than I. What fun there is to be had here ! Great stuff everybody, Georgie ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:35 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Any time, Georgie, any time! Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: George W.Kennie To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions I love that revocation clause, Bill. I'm going to file that away for future application, If it's O.K. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 11:22 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Keith: With all due respect, (and I have an idea that lots of folks may do it your way, occasionally,) for years we have been trying to get around the "impression" aspect of judging, It's hard to do, but that's why, (I believe) we have such detailed maneuver descriptions in the rules. (Again, my idea.) If this impression judging is extended, it could, in theory, be used for all judged maneuvers by some folks. Or so it seems to me. I understand the difficulty, and perhaps impossibility, of absolutely tying down each and every little thing. I doubt, in fact, that it's possible. But I feel that we should still try; each attempt brings us a little closer to the absolute. The above is purely my opinion, and is subject to being revoked without notice! Bill Glaze ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Hoard To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions I would just give a score based on my IMPRESSION of the landing. . . it it looks good, then a 9 - 9.5 - or 10 depending on how I felt the pilots flight went prior to the landing and other previous flights I have judged. If anyone presses me afterward, I will just claim the "smooth and graceful" clause in the AMA rulebook. . . that covers everything!!! On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 9:36 AM, billglaze wrote: Don: There are times when for one reason or another, the field is unmarked with a landing zone, and the CD announces that the LZ is the entire runway, making the LZ and the LA the same. That's what leads to doubt in judging landings. At least in my case, and, apparently, other folks also. And, like Georgie, I've also seen the 2 meter requirement mentioned; can't put my finger on it right now, but I've seen it in some official document. Bill Glaze ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Ramsey To: 'General pattern discussion' Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions I just check all the PowerPoint presentations on the website and they all say the same thing. LANDING AREA: the entire defined runway. LANDING ZONE is 30 m long and normally the width of the runway BUT not more than 30 M wide. Georgie, the landing never has been required to be within 2 meters of center for maximum points. As long as I was judging chairman (and before) it was 30 meters centered on the judges. Landing in that area could score max points. (The takeoff should lift off within 2 meters of center for max points). There is a lot of times when the aircraft may stop within 10 meters after landing and there are many times when it may not. For instance, grass runway with high grass or a smooth cement runway and no wind. The intent of the rule was to allow max points for either case. I?ve flown in some contests where if you landed in the landing zone (for max points) it was almost impossible to keep the plane from exiting the end of the runway. Solution: land about 10 meters before center, roll 10 meters and be finished, then don?t worry about running off the end. Don From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:23 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions # 2 screw-up !!!! It's not "roll to a stop within 15 meters", it's 10 meters, but the "stop" is still the elementle crux, I think. If it says " no downgrade if the model rolls to a stop within 10 meters" doesn't that infer that if the model continues to roll beyond that distance it becomews a downgradeable offence (1/2pt +)? And if it's not a centered maneuver, where'd we come up with the axiom " for maximum landing points, touchdown should occur < 2 meters either side of the centerline"? Is that FAI ? Did I make it up? Am I totally losing it? How the heck is anyone expected to keep all this stuff straight? ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker To: Discussion List Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Cut and pasted from the AMA website this morning: Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the landing zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case shall exceed 30 meters. Landing is not a centered maneuver and there is no downgrade for displacement of the touchdown point left or right from center as long as the landing is in the landing zone. If the touchdown is within the runway but not in the landing zone it should be downgraded proportionate to the distance outside the landing zone. The Contest Director may designate any landing zone appropriate to the field if safety considerations dictate. If the landing zone is anything other than standard it should be thoroughly discussed with the pilots and judges before flying is started and no downgrade shall be applied due to the touchdown in the non-standard landing zone. Emphasis added by me. This of course for AMA classes. JLK ------------------------------------------------------------------ From: geobet4 at verizon.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:15:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 ---------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. -------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnfuqua at embarqmail.com Tue Mar 3 13:52:06 2009 From: johnfuqua at embarqmail.com (John Fuqua) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 22:52:06 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: References: <316631.61743.qm@web62304.mail.re1.yahoo.com><6C3316C0EFFA4F19BF61648035F842D7@UncleJasPC><959EE69B-7532-4978-B78E-B4219E9298E4@buddengineering.com><7D60464B-67D3-4AC9-9A64-928EC802E827@buddengineering.com> Message-ID: <023e01c99c52$a9c9dd40$7101a8c0@ltm733c31251f5> If we had 2 FAI classes one for you and one for me I might consider it. Maybe we need 2 masters classes one that flies the FAI sequence and one that fliers an AMA sequence. -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of J Shu Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:54 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs See I was thinking that a few Masters pilots should move up to FAI and help grow FAI...lol. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Budd Engineering" To: "General pattern discussion" Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 1:46 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > Ok, that makes sense. Sounds like we should consider dropping the > scoring of TO's & L's in Masters to save time since Masters always > runs long at our contests? > > Hey to RVP! - What's the over/under on how long this thread will run? > I figure if we can get Keith H. involved we can keep it going for a > week or more! : ) > > Jerry > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 3, 2009, at 10:07 AM, "J Shu" wrote: > >> Because it takes time to make a perfect take-off and landing, and >> currently the time stops after the half roll after the 45-downs. We >> wouldn't have enough time unless the time limit was raised. >> >> Regards, >> Jason >> www.shulmanaviation.com >> www.composite-arf.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Budd Engineering >> To: General pattern discussion >> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:56 PM >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs >> >> >> Why would FAI have less time for scored TO's/L's than any other >> class? With the exception of Sportsman (and possibly Intermediate), >> FAI flys the shortest sequence. Masters in particular takes way >> longer. >> >> >> Jerry >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Mar 3, 2009, at 8:25 AM, "J Shu" wrote: >> >> >> I'm certainly not THE expert... I'm just going by my observations >> of pattern now to pattern when I was a kid. Like Stuart said, >> nothing beat a nose high take-off or landing down the centerline... >> and not many could do it. At least back then the only planes I >> remember running from weren't pattern planes, but scale planes! >> >> I used to always lose bets with my brother for the best take-off >> and landings cause his Ugly Stick was the perfect plane for that. He >> would line it up on the center line and roll down the runway, lift >> the nose just before the judges and break ground just after... 10. >> And then do the same thing for landing and get 10's there too. But >> his loops always ended up in the next county so I won the flying bets. >> >> FAI doesn't need to have scored take-offs and landings... we >> don't have time for it. But I don't see why AMA shouldn't be scored >> (and taught) on take-offs and landings. If you're a good pilot, then >> these should be freebie points for the taking. >> >> Regards, >> Jason >> www.shulmanaviation.com >> www.composite-arf.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: George W.Kennie >> To: General pattern discussion >> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:46 AM >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs >> >> >> There you have it from THE expert !!!!!!!!!!!! >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: J Shu >> To: General pattern discussion >> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 6:06 PM >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs >> >> >> I'd much rather see take-offs and landings be judged. What's >> the incentive of having a pilot learn how to learn a proper (and >> safe) take-off and landing if there is no 10 to shoot for? And not a >> 0 or 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make >> a pilot try and make a safe take-off or landing. >> >> Regards, >> Jason >> www.shulmanaviation.com >> www.composite-arf.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Tim Taylor >> To: General pattern discussion >> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 PM >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs >> >> >> I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add >> one turn around and center maneuver to the classes that score them. >> Exit the box down wind then they can make a 180 to landing. >> Tim >> >> --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie > > wrote: >> >> From: George W.Kennie >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs >> To: "General pattern discussion" > > >> Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM >> >> >> I think that dropping the scoring of TOs and LGs >> with the intent of reducing risk will be only minimally effective. >> There are always going to be individuals who will experience >> difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no >> matter how many times they go around. I can think of individuals who >> would include me in the group. >> >> G. >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: J N Hiller >> To: bob at toprudder.com ; General pattern discussion >> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and >> Takeoffs >> >> >> You make a good argument for dropping takeoff and >> landing scoring. I have aborted landings more than once. >> >> Jim >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org >> ]On Behalf Of Bob Richards >> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM >> To: General pattern discussion >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs >> >> >> I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't >> think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the >> maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/ >> spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches >> pushed to dangerous situations when they would probably have been >> aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the >> airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one >> plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and >> the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot >> during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person >> in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, >> when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced >> the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no >> point did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, >> anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are >> being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation. >> >> >> And, no, niether situation involved someone >> in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both >> contestants that had flown pattern for several years. >> >> >> I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and >> landings in IMAC. >> >> >> JM2CW >> >> >> Bob R. >> >> >> >> --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie > > wrote: >> >> >> I don't feel the same way as John on the >> landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. >> >> >> >> All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform >> competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have >> developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our >> command. To achieve this control further requires intense >> concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are >> many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required >> by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the >> airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete >> and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in >> my viewpoint. >> >> >> G. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. >> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. >> SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to >> date. >> The Professional version does not have this message. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> >> --- >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> >> --- >> --- >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. >> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. >> SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. >> The Professional version does not have this message. >> >> >> >> --- >> --- >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> >> --- >> --- >> --- >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From DaveL322 at comcast.net Tue Mar 3 14:06:26 2009 From: DaveL322 at comcast.net (Dave) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 23:06:26 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI is not AMA.....RE: Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: <20090303134442.1EJZC.180549.root@hrndva-web13-z02> References: <49AD2D1A.9030605@optonline.net> <20090303134442.1EJZC.180549.root@hrndva-web13-z02> Message-ID: <09452B7A13DB4EA5A35B47C29FA784C1@davedesktop> Just wanted to add to what Verne said about FAI - - the purpose of FAI is to pick the single best flyer in the world - the large number of flyers at a WC (or other international level FAI event) is unique to the WC. Point being, AMA following FAI for the sake of following FAI does not make any sense, unless the goal of AMA is to also pick the single best flyer in the world. Regards, Dave -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of verne at twmi.rr.com Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:45 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs FAI no longer gets any score for takeoff and landing. It's been very clear that FAI has been trying to shorten the flight time of an FAI flight by reducing the number of maneuvers (19)and enticing pilots to get in the air and into the box as quickly as possible by reducing the time allowed for an official flight. It's rare to even see a procedure turn after takeoff in FAI anymore. All of this was done to accommodate the World's which is a time-intensive event. For FAI, it's all about the aerobatic maneuvers in the box. Verne Koester ---- Stuart Chale wrote: > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From perkinsrx at centurytel.net Tue Mar 3 15:54:57 2009 From: perkinsrx at centurytel.net (W. Eddie Batchelor) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 00:54:57 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Triangulation Trimming article In-Reply-To: <1557274197.1993631236111463716.JavaMail.root@sz0056a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <200903040054.n240shJA027181@mail941c35.nsolutionszone.com> Duane The Triangulation Trimming article is posted on Brian?s Website also. http://www.hebertcompetitiondesigns.com/ Click on the ?WELCOME MESSAGE? icon on the left and then there is a link in the middle of that page. Eddie _____ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Duane Beck Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 2:18 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Triangulation Trimming article I'll download the issue. Thanks. Duane ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Cosky" To: "General pattern discussion" Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 2:27:04 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Triangulation Trimming article ? May '08. I can extract just those pages if you want me to e-mail them to you. ----- Original Message ----- From: Duane Beck To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 1:55 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Triangulation Trimming article Does anyone happen to know which K-Factor issue has Hebert's article on Triangulation Trimming? I tried looking for it but haven't found it yet. I have a new airplane that will need trimming soon. Thanks. Duane -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lld613 at psci.net Tue Mar 3 16:25:24 2009 From: lld613 at psci.net (Lisa n Larry) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 01:25:24 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions In-Reply-To: <046401c99c46$482dba90$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> References: <00f601c99ab4$ebbc8080$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst><7AC1DAB52FC74B2CAA1C584573DE28F1@CYBERPOWER><87C8916B96DB4606A04580E55D82D59F@CYBERPOWER><020401c99c0e$9e8f0ca0$dbad25e0$@com><028401c99c15$e3c36710$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst><6792ef120903030806t59cf370w9a6b7335133f8d1@mail.gmail.com><02bf01c99c1c$41b2e430$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst><36FEE54E-24F9-4397-8B76-36DDEA738757@cox.net><6792ef120903031248m61913d96qad8c94407b622a3c@mail.gmail.com> <046401c99c46$482dba90$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Message-ID: If we are at the end of the TO/L, is the Snap discussion next? Got to get some popcorn. FWIW I prefer scored landings 0 thru 10.Helps me focus on perfecting my landing. I still see it, and this perception has been around awhile, that a Pattern Pilot is almost always associated to the perfect or greased landings. I'm still working on it. _____ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of billglaze Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 3:23 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Thanks for the enlightenment. However, with the diversity of opinions, one never knows. Isn't it possible to put up a sign? Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Hoard To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions thuu, thuuu, thuuu-uu-thuuu-thhhhuuuuu. . . . On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 12:27 PM, Ronald Van Putte wrote: Keith's tongue was so far in his cheek when he wrote that last e-mail, I'm afraid he must have hurt himself. Ron On Mar 3, 2009, at 10:22 AM, billglaze wrote: Keith: With all due respect, (and I have an idea that lots of folks may do it your way, occasionally,) for years we have been trying to get around the "impression" aspect of judging, It's hard to do, but that's why, (I believe) we have such detailed maneuver descriptions in the rules. (Again, my idea.) If this impression judging is extended, it could, in theory, be used for all judged maneuvers by some folks. Or so it seems to me. I understand the difficulty, and perhaps impossibility, of absolutely tying down each and every little thing. I doubt, in fact, that it's possible. But I feel that we should still try; each attempt brings us a little closer to the absolute. The above is purely my opinion, and is subject to being revoked without notice! Bill Glaze ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Hoard To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions I would just give a score based on my IMPRESSION of the landing. . . it it looks good, then a 9 - 9.5 - or 10 depending on how I felt the pilots flight went prior to the landing and other previous flights I have judged. If anyone presses me afterward, I will just claim the "smooth and graceful" clause in the AMA rulebook. . . that covers everything!!! On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 9:36 AM, billglaze wrote: Don: There are times when for one reason or another, the field is unmarked with a landing zone, and the CD announces that the LZ is the entire runway, making the LZ and the LA the same. That's what leads to doubt in judging landings. At least in my case, and, apparently, other folks also. And, like Georgie, I've also seen the 2 meter requirement mentioned; can't put my finger on it right now, but I've seen it in some official document. Bill Glaze ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Ramsey To: 'General pattern discussion' Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions I just check all the PowerPoint presentations on the website and they all say the same thing. LANDING AREA: the entire defined runway. LANDING ZONE is 30 m long and normally the width of the runway BUT not more than 30 M wide. Georgie, the landing never has been required to be within 2 meters of center for maximum points. As long as I was judging chairman (and before) it was 30 meters centered on the judges. Landing in that area could score max points. (The takeoff should lift off within 2 meters of center for max points). There is a lot of times when the aircraft may stop within 10 meters after landing and there are many times when it may not. For instance, grass runway with high grass or a smooth cement runway and no wind. The intent of the rule was to allow max points for either case. I've flown in some contests where if you landed in the landing zone (for max points) it was almost impossible to keep the plane from exiting the end of the runway. Solution: land about 10 meters before center, roll 10 meters and be finished, then don't worry about running off the end. Don From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of George W.Kennie Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:23 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions # 2 screw-up !!!! It's not "roll to a stop within 15 meters", it's 10 meters, but the "stop" is still the elementle crux, I think. If it says " no downgrade if the model rolls to a stop within 10 meters" doesn't that infer that if the model continues to roll beyond that distance it becomews a downgradeable offence (1/2pt +)? And if it's not a centered maneuver, where'd we come up with the axiom " for maximum landing points, touchdown should occur < 2 meters either side of the centerline"? Is that FAI ? Did I make it up? Am I totally losing it? How the heck is anyone expected to keep all this stuff straight? ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker To: Discussion List Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Cut and pasted from the AMA website this morning: Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from 10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled 10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied after that point. The landing zone shall be marked by lines placed perpendicular across the runway and spaced 30 meters apart. The width of the landing zone is normally the width of the runway but in no case shall exceed 30 meters. Landing is not a centered maneuver and there is no downgrade for displacement of the touchdown point left or right from center as long as the landing is in the landing zone. If the touchdown is within the runway but not in the landing zone it should be downgraded proportionate to the distance outside the landing zone. The Contest Director may designate any landing zone appropriate to the field if safety considerations dictate. If the landing zone is anything other than standard it should be thoroughly discussed with the pilots and judges before flying is started and no downgrade shall be applied due to the touchdown in the non-standard landing zone. Emphasis added by me. This of course for AMA classes. JLK _____ From: geobet4 at verizon.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:15:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions Bill, This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes. In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model rolls to a stop within 15 meters". I think the crucial word is STOP ! What does this mean to proper execution? How many times have you seen a plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a single bounce for a distance of 150 feet? A little hot maybe, but to most observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters" stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence. Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter rollout. If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's control" and score a 10. Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer. And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting. Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should be so received. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: billglaze To: nsrca- discussion Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion: I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a question answered that I've had for a long time. On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero? I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me "after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane." It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their idea. Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed? I've been called for doing so once. Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the Split S: A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude. Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before. (Honest; yes, it's happened!) I've been known to incorrectly read/interpret also. Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the list! thanks Bill Glaze NSRCA 2388 _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter . We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter . We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjfrederick at cox.net Tue Mar 3 16:30:25 2009 From: mjfrederick at cox.net (Matthew Frederick) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 01:30:25 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs References: <316631.61743.qm@web62304.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <6C3316C0EFFA4F19BF61648035F842D7@UncleJasPC> Message-ID: <52C61347524847F28A411D3B54E16AB4@Mattmobile> I know what you mean about the ugly stick. My dad gave me one for christmas because it was his favorite back in the 70's... that thing lands like a DREAM! Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: J Shu To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:25 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'm certainly not THE expert... I'm just going by my observations of pattern now to pattern when I was a kid. Like Stuart said, nothing beat a nose high take-off or landing down the centerline... and not many could do it. At least back then the only planes I remember running from weren't pattern planes, but scale planes! I used to always lose bets with my brother for the best take-off and landings cause his Ugly Stick was the perfect plane for that. He would line it up on the center line and roll down the runway, lift the nose just before the judges and break ground just after... 10. And then do the same thing for landing and get 10's there too. But his loops always ended up in the next county so I won the flying bets. FAI doesn't need to have scored take-offs and landings... we don't have time for it. But I don't see why AMA shouldn't be scored (and taught) on take-offs and landings. If you're a good pilot, then these should be freebie points for the taking. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: George W.Kennie To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:46 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs There you have it from THE expert !!!!!!!!!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: J Shu To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 6:06 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'd much rather see take-offs and landings be judged. What's the incentive of having a pilot learn how to learn a proper (and safe) take-off and landing if there is no 10 to shoot for? And not a 0 or 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make a pilot try and make a safe take-off or landing. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Taylor To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add one turn around and center maneuver to the classes that score them. Exit the box down wind then they can make a 180 to landing. Tim --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: From: George W.Kennie Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM I think that dropping the scoring of TOs and LGs with the intent of reducing risk will be only minimally effective. There are always going to be individuals who will experience difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many times they go around. I can think of individuals who would include me in the group. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: bob at toprudder.com ; General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs You make a good argument for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have aborted landings more than once. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Bob Richards Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to dangerous situations when they would probably have been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation. And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had flown pattern for several years. I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC. JM2CW Bob R. --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint. G. ---------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjfrederick at cox.net Tue Mar 3 16:34:02 2009 From: mjfrederick at cox.net (Matthew Frederick) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 01:34:02 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Triangulation Trimming article References: <1944053639.1941221236106537321.JavaMail.root@sz0056a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <005101c99c36$0d0e0740$4658550a@usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Message-ID: Or you can go to www.hebertcompetitiondesigns.com click on the welcome message, and there's a link to the article right there. Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: Pete Cosky To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 1:27 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Triangulation Trimming article May '08. I can extract just those pages if you want me to e-mail them to you. ----- Original Message ----- From: Duane Beck To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 1:55 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Triangulation Trimming article Does anyone happen to know which K-Factor issue has Hebert's article on Triangulation Trimming? I tried looking for it but haven't found it yet. I have a new airplane that will need trimming soon. Thanks. Duane ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schale at optonline.net Tue Mar 3 17:11:39 2009 From: schale at optonline.net (Stuart Chale) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 02:11:39 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: References: <316631.61743.qm@web62304.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <6C3316C0EFFA4F19BF61648035F842D7@UncleJasPC> <959EE69B-7532-4978-B78E-B4219E9298E4@buddengineering.com> Message-ID: <49ADE352.2090803@optonline.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnhiller at earthlink.net Tue Mar 3 17:14:52 2009 From: jnhiller at earthlink.net (J N Hiller) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 02:14:52 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs Message-ID: I've seen a lot of what you are talking about. IMAC airplanes are much like pattern airplanes although less forgiving of pilot error. Cubs are scale airplanes also and making an on-line takeoff and landing including climb-out and final in a quartering or crosswind with a high wing scale airplane is probably the most difficult and attention demanding thing an RC pilot can do. Cross controlling on the ground is needed and the pilot needs to transition to an upwind yaw as the wheels leave the ground to hold the line during climb-out. Cross controlling needs to be reapplied just before touchdown to prevent a downwind roll with rudder as airplane steered along the centerline. It really is fun requiring nearly maximum use of the old processor. Flying a pattern airplane in a crosswind is a piece of cake by comparison. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of John Pavlick Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:21 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs OK, maybe that should only apply to some of the warbird guys in my club. I forgot, IMAC birds are "scale" too. :) John Pavlick --- On Tue, 3/3/09, J N Hiller wrote: From: J N Hiller Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs To: jpavlick at idseng.com, "General pattern discussion" Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 7:30 PM Hay, now I'm offended. Not all scale pilots have wild takeoffs. Jim From vanputte at cox.net Tue Mar 3 17:30:39 2009 From: vanputte at cox.net (Ron Van Putte) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 02:30:39 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: <49ADE352.2090803@optonline.net> References: <316631.61743.qm@web62304.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <6C3316C0EFFA4F19BF61648035F842D7@UncleJasPC> <959EE69B-7532-4978-B78E-B4219E9298E4@buddengineering.com> <49ADE352.2090803@optonline.net> Message-ID: <0843F339-8272-4264-9C13-19B61475165E@cox.net> BUT, the current FAI rules say that the takeoffs and landings are not scored and the U.S.A. has only one vote on changing FAI rules. Ron On Mar 3, 2009, at 8:11 PM, Stuart Chale wrote: > You (FAI) still have to take off and land. How much longer would > it take to make a pretty take off and landing instead of what you > do now. I suspect the landing would be the same as you still have > to slow down to landing speed :) The takeoff may take what 3 or 4 > seconds more to fly smoothly to 2 meters before turning somewhere? > Keep the time limit as it is on the flying portion and just score > the takeoff and landings 1 to 10. > Done :) > > J Shu wrote: >> >> Because it takes time to make a perfect take-off and landing, and >> currently the time stops after the half roll after the 45-downs. >> We wouldn't have enough time unless the time limit was raised. >> >> Regards, >> Jason >> www.shulmanaviation.com >> www.composite-arf.com >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Budd Engineering >> To: General pattern discussion >> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:56 PM >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs >> >> Why would FAI have less time for scored TO's/L's than any other >> class? With the exception of Sportsman (and possibly >> Intermediate), FAI flys the shortest sequence. Masters in >> particular takes way longer. >> >> Jerry >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Mar 3, 2009, at 8:25 AM, "J Shu" wrote: >> >>> I'm certainly not THE expert... I'm just going by my observations >>> of pattern now to pattern when I was a kid. Like Stuart said, >>> nothing beat a nose high take-off or landing down the >>> centerline... and not many could do it. At least back then the >>> only planes I remember running from weren't pattern planes, but >>> scale planes! >>> >>> I used to always lose bets with my brother for the best take-off >>> and landings cause his Ugly Stick was the perfect plane for that. >>> He would line it up on the center line and roll down the runway, >>> lift the nose just before the judges and break ground just >>> after... 10. And then do the same thing for landing and get 10's >>> there too. But his loops always ended up in the next county so I >>> won the flying bets. >>> >>> FAI doesn't need to have scored take-offs and landings... we >>> don't have time for it. But I don't see why AMA shouldn't be >>> scored (and taught) on take-offs and landings. If you're a good >>> pilot, then these should be freebie points for the taking. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Jason >>> www.shulmanaviation.com >>> www.composite-arf.com >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: George W.Kennie >>> To: General pattern discussion >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:46 AM >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs >>> >>> There you have it from THE expert !!!!!!!!!!!! >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: J Shu >>> To: General pattern discussion >>> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 6:06 PM >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs >>> >>> I'd much rather see take-offs and landings be judged. What's the >>> incentive of having a pilot learn how to learn a proper (and >>> safe) take-off and landing if there is no 10 to shoot for? And >>> not a 0 or 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be scored >>> doesn't make a pilot try and make a safe take-off or landing. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Jason >>> www.shulmanaviation.com >>> www.composite-arf.com >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Tim Taylor >>> To: General pattern discussion >>> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 PM >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs >>> >>> I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add one turn >>> around and center maneuver to the classes that score them. Exit >>> the box down wind then they can make a 180 to landing. >>> Tim >>> >>> --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: >>> From: George W.Kennie >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs >>> To: "General pattern discussion" >>> Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM >>> >>> I think that dropping the scoring of TOs and LGs with the intent >>> of reducing risk will be only minimally effective. There are >>> always going to be individuals who will experience difficulty >>> with crossing winds, turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no matter >>> how many times they go around. I can think of individuals who >>> would include me in the group. >>> >>> G. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: J N Hiller >>> To: bob at toprudder.com ; General pattern discussion >>> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs >>> >>> You make a good argument for dropping takeoff and landing >>> scoring. I have aborted landings more than once. >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca- >>> discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Bob Richards >>> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM >>> To: General pattern discussion >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs >>> >>> >>> I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and >>> landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the >>> plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad >>> takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to dangerous situations >>> when they would probably have been aborted had they not been >>> scored maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At >>> the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my >>> head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) >>> during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot during >>> one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in >>> the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, >>> when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot >>> forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the >>> runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In most >>> situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and started >>> over, but because they are being judged they keep on pushing a >>> bad situation. >>> >>> >>> And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or >>> Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had flown >>> pattern for several years. >>> >>> >>> I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC. >>> >>> >>> JM2CW >>> >>> >>> Bob R. >>> >>> >>> >>> --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: >>> >>> I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being >>> relegated to a non-skill element. >>> >>> >>> All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require >>> that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some >>> precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To >>> achieve this control further requires intense concentration on >>> the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne >>> maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot >>> are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe >>> back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and >>> confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my >>> viewpoint. >>> >>> >>> G. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>> >>> I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. >>> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. >>> SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. >>> The Professional version does not have this message. >>> _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion >>> mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http:// >>> lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>> I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. >>> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. >>> SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. >>> The Professional version does not have this message. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion >> mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http:// >> lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From jshulman at cfl.rr.com Tue Mar 3 17:37:24 2009 From: jshulman at cfl.rr.com (J Shu) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 02:37:24 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: <49ADE352.2090803@optonline.net> References: <316631.61743.qm@web62304.mail.re1.yahoo.com><6C3316C0EFFA4F19BF61648035F842D7@UncleJasPC><959EE69B-7532-4978-B78E-B4219E9298E4@buddengineering.com> <49ADE352.2090803@optonline.net> Message-ID: <61341448EC7E41D9A9AF8B01950C972A@UncleJasPC> We have 8 minutes. As of now we finish our flights after the 7 min mark. To get scored on t/o and landing, we would need to try... and also take the time on landing. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Stuart Chale To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs You (FAI) still have to take off and land. How much longer would it take to make a pretty take off and landing instead of what you do now. I suspect the landing would be the same as you still have to slow down to landing speed :) The takeoff may take what 3 or 4 seconds more to fly smoothly to 2 meters before turning somewhere? Keep the time limit as it is on the flying portion and just score the takeoff and landings 1 to 10. Done :) J Shu wrote: Because it takes time to make a perfect take-off and landing, and currently the time stops after the half roll after the 45-downs. We wouldn't have enough time unless the time limit was raised. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Budd Engineering To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:56 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs Why would FAI have less time for scored TO's/L's than any other class? With the exception of Sportsman (and possibly Intermediate), FAI flys the shortest sequence. Masters in particular takes way longer. Jerry Sent from my iPhone On Mar 3, 2009, at 8:25 AM, "J Shu" wrote: I'm certainly not THE expert... I'm just going by my observations of pattern now to pattern when I was a kid. Like Stuart said, nothing beat a nose high take-off or landing down the centerline... and not many could do it. At least back then the only planes I remember running from weren't pattern planes, but scale planes! I used to always lose bets with my brother for the best take-off and landings cause his Ugly Stick was the perfect plane for that. He would line it up on the center line and roll down the runway, lift the nose just before the judges and break ground just after... 10. And then do the same thing for landing and get 10's there too. But his loops always ended up in the next county so I won the flying bets. FAI doesn't need to have scored take-offs and landings... we don't have time for it. But I don't see why AMA shouldn't be scored (and taught) on take-offs and landings. If you're a good pilot, then these should be freebie points for the taking. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: George W.Kennie To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:46 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs There you have it from THE expert !!!!!!!!!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: J Shu To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 6:06 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'd much rather see take-offs and landings be judged. What's the incentive of having a pilot learn how to learn a proper (and safe) take-off and landing if there is no 10 to shoot for? And not a 0 or 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make a pilot try and make a safe take-off or landing. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Taylor To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add one turn around and center maneuver to the classes that score them. Exit the box down wind then they can make a 180 to landing. Tim --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: From: George W.Kennie Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM I think that dropping the scoring of TOs and LGs with the intent of reducing risk will be only minimally effective. There are always going to be individuals who will experience difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many times they go around. I can think of individuals who would include me in the group. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: bob at toprudder.com ; General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs You make a good argument for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have aborted landings more than once. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Bob Richards Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to dangerous situations when they would probably have been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation. And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had flown pattern for several years. I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC. JM2CW Bob R. --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint. G. ---------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjfrederick at cox.net Tue Mar 3 17:48:23 2009 From: mjfrederick at cox.net (Matthew Frederick) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 02:48:23 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs References: Message-ID: <4E0332DE9B9C4028AB8120A117183E0D@Mattmobile> No argument here... I manage that with throttle only... ----- Original Message ----- From: "J N Hiller" To: "NSRCA Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:14 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > I've seen a lot of what you are talking about. IMAC airplanes are much > like > pattern airplanes although less forgiving of pilot error. > Cubs are scale airplanes also and making an on-line takeoff and landing > including climb-out and final in a quartering or crosswind with a high > wing > scale airplane is probably the most difficult and attention demanding > thing > an RC pilot can do. Cross controlling on the ground is needed and the > pilot > needs to transition to an upwind yaw as the wheels leave the ground to > hold > the line during climb-out. Cross controlling needs to be reapplied just > before touchdown to prevent a downwind roll with rudder as airplane > steered > along the centerline. It really is fun requiring nearly maximum use of the > old processor. Flying a pattern airplane in a crosswind is a piece of cake > by comparison. > > Jim > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of John Pavlick > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:21 PM > To: General pattern discussion > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > OK, maybe that should only apply to some of the warbird guys in my club. I > forgot, IMAC birds are "scale" too. :) > > > > John Pavlick > > --- On Tue, 3/3/09, J N Hiller wrote: > > From: J N Hiller > Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > To: jpavlick at idseng.com, "General pattern discussion" > > Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 7:30 PM > > > Hay, now I'm offended. Not all scale pilots have wild takeoffs. > > Jim > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > From chad at f3acanada.org Tue Mar 3 18:03:13 2009 From: chad at f3acanada.org (Chad Northeast) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 03:03:13 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: <49ADE352.2090803@optonline.net> References: <316631.61743.qm@web62304.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <6C3316C0EFFA4F19BF61648035F842D7@UncleJasPC> <959EE69B-7532-4978-B78E-B4219E9298E4@buddengineering.com> <49ADE352.2090803@optonline.net> Message-ID: <49ADEF6C.4030604@f3acanada.org> Here is a different view (for FAI anyway, which the rules are really about the WC's) There have been incidences at past Worlds of damaged aircraft on landing because of extreme weather conditions that change during the flight...I was in the ready box when a pilot pretty much landed on us standing there. With the current changes it gives the pilots options to go around and change direction if required without penalty. IMO this was a much needed safety measure....understand that not all pilots at the WC are Jason's :-) Some are there who have barely flown FAI. Chad Stuart Chale wrote: > You (FAI) still have to take off and land. How much longer would it > take to make a pretty take off and landing instead of what you do > now. I suspect the landing would be the same as you still have to > slow down to landing speed :) The takeoff may take what 3 or 4 > seconds more to fly smoothly to 2 meters before turning somewhere? > Keep the time limit as it is on the flying portion and just score the > takeoff and landings 1 to 10. > Done :) > > J Shu wrote: >> Because it takes time to make a perfect take-off and landing, and >> currently the time stops after the half roll after the 45-downs. We >> wouldn't have enough time unless the time limit was raised. >> >> Regards, >> Jason >> www.shulmanaviation.com >> www.composite-arf.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Budd Engineering >> *To:* General pattern discussion >> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:56 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs >> >> Why would FAI have less time for scored TO's/L's than any other >> class? With the exception of Sportsman (and possibly >> Intermediate), FAI flys the shortest sequence. Masters in >> particular takes way longer. >> >> Jerry >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Mar 3, 2009, at 8:25 AM, "J Shu" > > wrote: >> >>> I'm certainly not THE expert... I'm just going by my >>> observations of pattern now to pattern when I was a kid. Like >>> Stuart said, nothing beat a nose high take-off or landing down >>> the centerline... and not many could do it. At least back then >>> the only planes I remember running from weren't pattern planes, >>> but scale planes! >>> >>> I used to always lose bets with my brother for the best take-off >>> and landings cause his Ugly Stick was the perfect plane for >>> that. He would line it up on the center line and roll down the >>> runway, lift the nose just before the judges and break ground >>> just after... 10. And then do the same thing for landing and get >>> 10's there too. But his loops always ended up in the next county >>> so I won the flying bets. >>> >>> FAI doesn't need to have scored take-offs and landings... we >>> don't have time for it. But I don't see why AMA shouldn't be >>> scored (and taught) on take-offs and landings. If you're a good >>> pilot, then these should be freebie points for the taking. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Jason >>> www.shulmanaviation.com >>> www.composite-arf.com >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> *From:* George W.Kennie >>> *To:* General pattern discussion >>> >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:46 AM >>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs >>> >>> There you have it from THE expert !!!!!!!!!!!! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> *From:* J Shu >>> *To:* General pattern discussion >>> >>> *Sent:* Monday, March 02, 2009 6:06 PM >>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs >>> >>> I'd much rather see take-offs and landings be judged. >>> What's the incentive of having a pilot learn how to >>> learn a proper (and safe) take-off and landing if there >>> is no 10 to shoot for? And not a 0 or 10, but scored. >>> Just because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make a pilot >>> try and make a safe take-off or landing. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Jason >>> www.shulmanaviation.com >>> www.composite-arf.com >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> *From:* Tim Taylor >>> *To:* General pattern discussion >>> >>> *Sent:* Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 PM >>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs >>> >>> I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add >>> one turn around and center maneuver to the classes >>> that score them. Exit the box down wind then they >>> can make a 180 to landing. >>> Tim >>> >>> --- On *Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie >>> />> >/* wrote: >>> >>> From: George W.Kennie >> > >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and >>> Takeoffs >>> To: "General pattern discussion" >>> >> > >>> Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM >>> >>> I think that dropping the scoring of TOs and >>> LGs with the intent of reducing risk will be >>> only minimally effective. There are always going >>> to be individuals who will experience difficulty >>> with crossing winds, turbulance, ineptitude, >>> whatever, no matter how many times they go >>> around. I can think of individuals who would >>> include me in the group. >>> >>> G. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> *From:* J N Hiller >>> >>> *To:* bob at toprudder.com >>> ; General pattern >>> discussion >>> >>> *Sent:* Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM >>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings >>> and Takeoffs >>> >>> You make a good argument for dropping >>> takeoff and landing scoring. I have aborted >>> landings more than once. >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> *From:* nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org >>> >>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]*On >>> Behalf Of *Bob Richards >>> *Sent:* Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM >>> *To:* General pattern discussion >>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and >>> Takeoffs >>> >>> I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think >>> takeoffs and landings should be judged. These >>> are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to >>> the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad >>> takeoffs and landing approaches pushed >>> to dangerous situations when they would probably >>> have been aborted had they not been scored >>> maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at >>> risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had >>> one plane fly behind my head at the Nats >>> (between myself, my caller, and the judges) >>> during a landing when the plane got away from >>> the pilot during one such occurance. I've also >>> seen a plane slam into a person in the pits at >>> full throttle, just after lifting off the >>> ground, when the plane first veered away from >>> the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff by >>> kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At >>> no point did he back off the throttle. In most >>> situations such as this, anyone would have >>> aborted and started over, but because they are >>> being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation. >>> >>> And, no, niether situation involved someone in >>> the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These >>> were both contestants that had flown pattern for >>> several years. >>> >>> I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and >>> landings in IMAC. >>> >>> JM2CW >>> >>> Bob R. >>> >>> >>> >>> --- On *Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie >>> />> >/* wrote: >>> >>> I don't feel the same way as John on the landing >>> maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. >>> >>> >>> >>> All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform >>> competitively require that we demonstrate to a >>> judge that we have developed some precise degree >>> of control over the airframe under our command. >>> To achieve this control further requires intense >>> concentration on the part of the pilot. I would >>> offer that there are many airborne maneuvers >>> where the degree of concentration required by >>> the pilot are significantly lower than that >>> required to bring the airframe back into contact >>> with terra firma and demonstrate complete and >>> confident control. This is a skill that is >>> worthy of reward in my viewpoint. >>> >>> G. >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>> >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter >>> . >>> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. >>> SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. >>> The Professional version does not have this message. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>> >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>> >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter >>> . >>> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. >>> SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. >>> The Professional version does not have this message. >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>> >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>> >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- Chad www.chadnortheast.ca From mjfrederick at cox.net Tue Mar 3 18:15:07 2009 From: mjfrederick at cox.net (Matthew Frederick) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 03:15:07 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs References: <316631.61743.qm@web62304.mail.re1.yahoo.com><6C3316C0EFFA4F19BF61648035F842D7@UncleJasPC><959EE69B-7532-4978-B78E-B4219E9298E4@buddengineering.com><49ADE352.2090803@optonline.net> <61341448EC7E41D9A9AF8B01950C972A@UncleJasPC> Message-ID: >From what I've seen most F3A competitors do some pretty sweet landings anyway... Makes me sick whenever I watch Bryan Hebert land... Hell, when he's practicing for the Nats he only cuts about a 50x15 rectangle in our runway so he has enough room to work (he's the only one who flies during the week)... But I completely understand where Jason's coming from on the time limits, plus at that level the landing and takeoffs are kind-of a given... Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: J Shu To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:36 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs We have 8 minutes. As of now we finish our flights after the 7 min mark. To get scored on t/o and landing, we would need to try... and also take the time on landing. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Stuart Chale To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs You (FAI) still have to take off and land. How much longer would it take to make a pretty take off and landing instead of what you do now. I suspect the landing would be the same as you still have to slow down to landing speed :) The takeoff may take what 3 or 4 seconds more to fly smoothly to 2 meters before turning somewhere? Keep the time limit as it is on the flying portion and just score the takeoff and landings 1 to 10. Done :) J Shu wrote: Because it takes time to make a perfect take-off and landing, and currently the time stops after the half roll after the 45-downs. We wouldn't have enough time unless the time limit was raised. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Budd Engineering To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:56 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs Why would FAI have less time for scored TO's/L's than any other class? With the exception of Sportsman (and possibly Intermediate), FAI flys the shortest sequence. Masters in particular takes way longer. Jerry Sent from my iPhone On Mar 3, 2009, at 8:25 AM, "J Shu" wrote: I'm certainly not THE expert... I'm just going by my observations of pattern now to pattern when I was a kid. Like Stuart said, nothing beat a nose high take-off or landing down the centerline... and not many could do it. At least back then the only planes I remember running from weren't pattern planes, but scale planes! I used to always lose bets with my brother for the best take-off and landings cause his Ugly Stick was the perfect plane for that. He would line it up on the center line and roll down the runway, lift the nose just before the judges and break ground just after... 10. And then do the same thing for landing and get 10's there too. But his loops always ended up in the next county so I won the flying bets. FAI doesn't need to have scored take-offs and landings... we don't have time for it. But I don't see why AMA shouldn't be scored (and taught) on take-offs and landings. If you're a good pilot, then these should be freebie points for the taking. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: George W.Kennie To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:46 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs There you have it from THE expert !!!!!!!!!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: J Shu To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 6:06 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'd much rather see take-offs and landings be judged. What's the incentive of having a pilot learn how to learn a proper (and safe) take-off and landing if there is no 10 to shoot for? And not a 0 or 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make a pilot try and make a safe take-off or landing. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Taylor To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add one turn around and center maneuver to the classes that score them. Exit the box down wind then they can make a 180 to landing. Tim --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: From: George W.Kennie Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM I think that dropping the scoring of TOs and LGs with the intent of reducing risk will be only minimally effective. There are always going to be individuals who will experience difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many times they go around. I can think of individuals who would include me in the group. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: bob at toprudder.com ; General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs You make a good argument for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have aborted landings more than once. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Bob Richards Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to dangerous situations when they would probably have been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation. And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had flown pattern for several years. I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC. JM2CW Bob R. --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint. G. -------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------- I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. 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URL: From jnhiller at earthlink.net Tue Mar 3 18:21:55 2009 From: jnhiller at earthlink.net (J N Hiller) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 03:21:55 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: <4E0332DE9B9C4028AB8120A117183E0D@Mattmobile> Message-ID: Right throttle is used to control climb and decent. I have even set some up elevator mix on non-flap equipped models to reduce the speed on final. The yaw and wind drift are what need constant attention. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Matthew Frederick Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 6:48 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs No argument here... I manage that with throttle only... ----- Original Message ----- From: "J N Hiller" To: "NSRCA Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:14 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > I've seen a lot of what you are talking about. IMAC airplanes are much > like > pattern airplanes although less forgiving of pilot error. > Cubs are scale airplanes also and making an on-line takeoff and landing > including climb-out and final in a quartering or crosswind with a high > wing > scale airplane is probably the most difficult and attention demanding > thing > an RC pilot can do. Cross controlling on the ground is needed and the > pilot > needs to transition to an upwind yaw as the wheels leave the ground to > hold > the line during climb-out. Cross controlling needs to be reapplied just > before touchdown to prevent a downwind roll with rudder as airplane > steered > along the centerline. It really is fun requiring nearly maximum use of the > old processor. Flying a pattern airplane in a crosswind is a piece of cake > by comparison. > > Jim > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of John Pavlick > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:21 PM > To: General pattern discussion > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > OK, maybe that should only apply to some of the warbird guys in my club. I > forgot, IMAC birds are "scale" too. :) > > > > John Pavlick > > --- On Tue, 3/3/09, J N Hiller wrote: > > From: J N Hiller > Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > To: jpavlick at idseng.com, "General pattern discussion" > > Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 7:30 PM > > > Hay, now I'm offended. Not all scale pilots have wild takeoffs. > > Jim > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From mjfrederick at cox.net Tue Mar 3 19:07:57 2009 From: mjfrederick at cox.net (Matthew Frederick) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 04:07:57 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs References: Message-ID: <407F0195E19548EA84381E77840245F2@Mattmobile> Oh, I meant the crosswind, but landings too ----- Original Message ----- From: "J N Hiller" To: "General pattern discussion" Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:21 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > Right throttle is used to control climb and decent. I have even set some > up > elevator mix on non-flap equipped models to reduce the speed on final. The > yaw and wind drift are what need constant attention. > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Matthew > Frederick > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 6:48 PM > To: General pattern discussion > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > No argument here... I manage that with throttle only... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J N Hiller" > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:14 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > >> I've seen a lot of what you are talking about. IMAC airplanes are much >> like >> pattern airplanes although less forgiving of pilot error. >> Cubs are scale airplanes also and making an on-line takeoff and landing >> including climb-out and final in a quartering or crosswind with a high >> wing >> scale airplane is probably the most difficult and attention demanding >> thing >> an RC pilot can do. Cross controlling on the ground is needed and the >> pilot >> needs to transition to an upwind yaw as the wheels leave the ground to >> hold >> the line during climb-out. Cross controlling needs to be reapplied just >> before touchdown to prevent a downwind roll with rudder as airplane >> steered >> along the centerline. It really is fun requiring nearly maximum use of >> the >> old processor. Flying a pattern airplane in a crosswind is a piece of >> cake >> by comparison. >> >> Jim >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org >> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of John >> Pavlick >> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:21 PM >> To: General pattern discussion >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs >> >> >> >> OK, maybe that should only apply to some of the warbird guys in my club. >> I >> forgot, IMAC birds are "scale" too. :) >> >> >> >> John Pavlick >> >> --- On Tue, 3/3/09, J N Hiller wrote: >> >> From: J N Hiller >> Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs >> To: jpavlick at idseng.com, "General pattern discussion" >> >> Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 7:30 PM >> >> >> Hay, now I'm offended. Not all scale pilots have wild takeoffs. >> >> Jim >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From mjfrederick at cox.net Tue Mar 3 19:18:56 2009 From: mjfrederick at cox.net (Matthew Frederick) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 04:18:56 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs References: <316631.61743.qm@web62304.mail.re1.yahoo.com><6C3316C0EFFA4F19BF61648035F842D7@UncleJasPC><959EE69B-7532-4978-B78E-B4219E9298E4@buddengineering.com><49ADE352.2090803@optonline.net><61341448EC7E41D9A9AF8B01950C972A@UncleJasPC> Message-ID: <471810F289DA4778BD7208D28A008DC7@Mattmobile> Notice, I said kind-of because I know there are guys who represent countries that hardly fly... Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: Matthew Frederick To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:14 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs From what I've seen most F3A competitors do some pretty sweet landings anyway... Makes me sick whenever I watch Bryan Hebert land... Hell, when he's practicing for the Nats he only cuts about a 50x15 rectangle in our runway so he has enough room to work (he's the only one who flies during the week)... But I completely understand where Jason's coming from on the time limits, plus at that level the landing and takeoffs are kind-of a given... Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: J Shu To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:36 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs We have 8 minutes. As of now we finish our flights after the 7 min mark. To get scored on t/o and landing, we would need to try... and also take the time on landing. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Stuart Chale To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs You (FAI) still have to take off and land. How much longer would it take to make a pretty take off and landing instead of what you do now. I suspect the landing would be the same as you still have to slow down to landing speed :) The takeoff may take what 3 or 4 seconds more to fly smoothly to 2 meters before turning somewhere? Keep the time limit as it is on the flying portion and just score the takeoff and landings 1 to 10. Done :) J Shu wrote: Because it takes time to make a perfect take-off and landing, and currently the time stops after the half roll after the 45-downs. We wouldn't have enough time unless the time limit was raised. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Budd Engineering To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:56 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs Why would FAI have less time for scored TO's/L's than any other class? With the exception of Sportsman (and possibly Intermediate), FAI flys the shortest sequence. Masters in particular takes way longer. Jerry Sent from my iPhone On Mar 3, 2009, at 8:25 AM, "J Shu" wrote: I'm certainly not THE expert... I'm just going by my observations of pattern now to pattern when I was a kid. Like Stuart said, nothing beat a nose high take-off or landing down the centerline... and not many could do it. At least back then the only planes I remember running from weren't pattern planes, but scale planes! I used to always lose bets with my brother for the best take-off and landings cause his Ugly Stick was the perfect plane for that. He would line it up on the center line and roll down the runway, lift the nose just before the judges and break ground just after... 10. And then do the same thing for landing and get 10's there too. But his loops always ended up in the next county so I won the flying bets. FAI doesn't need to have scored take-offs and landings... we don't have time for it. But I don't see why AMA shouldn't be scored (and taught) on take-offs and landings. If you're a good pilot, then these should be freebie points for the taking. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: George W.Kennie To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:46 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs There you have it from THE expert !!!!!!!!!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: J Shu To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 6:06 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'd much rather see take-offs and landings be judged. What's the incentive of having a pilot learn how to learn a proper (and safe) take-off and landing if there is no 10 to shoot for? And not a 0 or 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make a pilot try and make a safe take-off or landing. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Taylor To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add one turn around and center maneuver to the classes that score them. Exit the box down wind then they can make a 180 to landing. Tim --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: From: George W.Kennie Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM I think that dropping the scoring of TOs and LGs with the intent of reducing risk will be only minimally effective. There are always going to be individuals who will experience difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many times they go around. I can think of individuals who would include me in the group. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: bob at toprudder.com ; General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs You make a good argument for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have aborted landings more than once. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Bob Richards Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to dangerous situations when they would probably have been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation. And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had flown pattern for several years. I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC. JM2CW Bob R. --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint. G. ------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------------------------------------------------- I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. 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The Professional version does not have this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pamrich47 at hotmail.com Tue Mar 3 20:07:17 2009 From: pamrich47 at hotmail.com (Richard Strickland) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 05:07:17 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: References: <4E0332DE9B9C4028AB8120A117183E0D@Mattmobile> Message-ID: What do you use the left throttle for...? I couldn't help it... RS > From: jnhiller at earthlink.net > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 19:21:56 -0800 > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > Right throttle is used to control climb and decent. I have even set some up > elevator mix on non-flap equipped models to reduce the speed on final. The > yaw and wind drift are what need constant attention. > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Matthew > Frederick > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 6:48 PM > To: General pattern discussion > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > No argument here... I manage that with throttle only... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J N Hiller" > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:14 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > I've seen a lot of what you are talking about. IMAC airplanes are much > > like > > pattern airplanes although less forgiving of pilot error. > > Cubs are scale airplanes also and making an on-line takeoff and landing > > including climb-out and final in a quartering or crosswind with a high > > wing > > scale airplane is probably the most difficult and attention demanding > > thing > > an RC pilot can do. Cross controlling on the ground is needed and the > > pilot > > needs to transition to an upwind yaw as the wheels leave the ground to > > hold > > the line during climb-out. Cross controlling needs to be reapplied just > > before touchdown to prevent a downwind roll with rudder as airplane > > steered > > along the centerline. It really is fun requiring nearly maximum use of the > > old processor. Flying a pattern airplane in a crosswind is a piece of cake > > by comparison. > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of John Pavlick > > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:21 PM > > To: General pattern discussion > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > > > > > OK, maybe that should only apply to some of the warbird guys in my club. I > > forgot, IMAC birds are "scale" too. :) > > > > > > > > John Pavlick > > > > --- On Tue, 3/3/09, J N Hiller wrote: > > > > From: J N Hiller > > Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > To: jpavlick at idseng.com, "General pattern discussion" > > > > Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 7:30 PM > > > > > > Hay, now I'm offended. Not all scale pilots have wild takeoffs. > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _________________________________________________________________ Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail?. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/LearnMore/personalize.aspx?ocid=TXT_MSGTX_WL_HM_express_032009#colortheme -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjfrederick at cox.net Tue Mar 3 21:08:03 2009 From: mjfrederick at cox.net (Matthew Frederick) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 06:08:03 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs References: <4E0332DE9B9C4028AB8120A117183E0D@Mattmobile> Message-ID: <723AE371B43844298BB541E4156DB765@Mattmobile> LOL ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Strickland To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 11:07 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs What do you use the left throttle for...? I couldn't help it... RS > From: jnhiller at earthlink.net > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 19:21:56 -0800 > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > Right throttle is used to control climb and decent. I have even set some up > elevator mix on non-flap equipped models to reduce the speed on final. The > yaw and wind drift are what need constant attention. > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Matthew > Frederick > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 6:48 PM > To: General pattern discussion > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > No argument here... I manage that with throttle only... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J N Hiller" > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:14 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > I've seen a lot of what you are talking about. IMAC airplanes are much > > like > > pattern airplanes although less forgiving of pilot error. > > Cubs are scale airplanes also and making an on-line takeoff and landing > > including climb-out and final in a quartering or crosswind with a high > > wing > > scale airplane is probably the most difficult and attention demanding > > thing > > an RC pilot can do. Cross controlling on the ground is needed and the > > pilot > > needs to transition to an upwind yaw as the wheels leave the ground to > > hold > > the line during climb-out. Cross controlling needs to be reapplied just > > before touchdown to prevent a downwind roll with rudder as airplane > > steered > > along the centerline. It really is fun requiring nearly maximum use of the > > old processor. Flying a pattern airplane in a crosswind is a piece of cake > > by comparison. > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of John Pavlick > > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:21 PM > > To: General pattern discussion > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > > > > > OK, maybe that should only apply to some of the warbird guys in my club. I > > forgot, IMAC birds are "scale" too. :) > > > > > > > > John Pavlick > > > > --- On Tue, 3/3/09, J N Hiller wrote: > > > > From: J N Hiller > > Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > To: jpavlick at idseng.com, "General pattern discussion" > > > > Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 7:30 PM > > > > > > Hay, now I'm offended. Not all scale pilots have wild takeoffs. > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail?. See how. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnfuqua at embarqmail.com Wed Mar 4 03:23:59 2009 From: johnfuqua at embarqmail.com (John Fuqua) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 12:23:59 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: <61341448EC7E41D9A9AF8B01950C972A@UncleJasPC> References: <316631.61743.qm@web62304.mail.re1.yahoo.com><6C3316C0EFFA4F19BF61648035F842D7@UncleJasPC><959EE69B-7532-4978-B78E-B4219E9298E4@buddengineering.com><49ADE352.2090803@optonline.net> <61341448EC7E41D9A9AF8B01950C972A@UncleJasPC> Message-ID: <029d01c99cc4$0cbac6a0$7101a8c0@ltm733c31251f5> You also save the judges time which is important in a large contest. _____ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of J Shu Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:37 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs We have 8 minutes. As of now we finish our flights after the 7 min mark. To get scored on t/o and landing, we would need to try... and also take the time on landing. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Stuart Chale To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs You (FAI) still have to take off and land. How much longer would it take to make a pretty take off and landing instead of what you do now. I suspect the landing would be the same as you still have to slow down to landing speed :) The takeoff may take what 3 or 4 seconds more to fly smoothly to 2 meters before turning somewhere? Keep the time limit as it is on the flying portion and just score the takeoff and landings 1 to 10. Done :) J Shu wrote: Because it takes time to make a perfect take-off and landing, and currently the time stops after the half roll after the 45-downs. We wouldn't have enough time unless the time limit was raised. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Budd Engineering To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:56 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs Why would FAI have less time for scored TO's/L's than any other class? With the exception of Sportsman (and possibly Intermediate), FAI flys the shortest sequence. Masters in particular takes way longer. Jerry Sent from my iPhone On Mar 3, 2009, at 8:25 AM, "J Shu" wrote: I'm certainly not THE expert... I'm just going by my observations of pattern now to pattern when I was a kid. Like Stuart said, nothing beat a nose high take-off or landing down the centerline... and not many could do it. At least back then the only planes I remember running from weren't pattern planes, but scale planes! I used to always lose bets with my brother for the best take-off and landings cause his Ugly Stick was the perfect plane for that. He would line it up on the center line and roll down the runway, lift the nose just before the judges and break ground just after... 10. And then do the same thing for landing and get 10's there too. But his loops always ended up in the next county so I won the flying bets. FAI doesn't need to have scored take-offs and landings... we don't have time for it. But I don't see why AMA shouldn't be scored (and taught) on take-offs and landings. If you're a good pilot, then these should be freebie points for the taking. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: George W.Kennie To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:46 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs There you have it from THE expert !!!!!!!!!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: J Shu To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 6:06 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'd much rather see take-offs and landings be judged. What's the incentive of having a pilot learn how to learn a proper (and safe) take-off and landing if there is no 10 to shoot for? And not a 0 or 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make a pilot try and make a safe take-off or landing. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Taylor To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add one turn around and center maneuver to the classes that score them. Exit the box down wind then they can make a 180 to landing. Tim --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: From: George W.Kennie Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM I think that dropping the scoring of TOs and LGs with the intent of reducing risk will be only minimally effective. There are always going to be individuals who will experience difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many times they go around. I can think of individuals who would include me in the group. G. ----- Original Message ----- From: J N Hiller To: bob at toprudder.com ; General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs You make a good argument for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have aborted landings more than once. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Bob Richards Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to dangerous situations when they would probably have been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation. And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had flown pattern for several years. I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC. JM2CW Bob R. --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie wrote: I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint. G. _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter . We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter . We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25177 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlkonn at hotmail.com Wed Mar 4 06:20:20 2009 From: jlkonn at hotmail.com (John Konneker) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 15:20:20 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Back issues Message-ID: The other day there was some discussion about back issues of the K-Factor. If anyone has any scans of issues from 1983 and 1984 I would really appreciate seeing them. Don't know if the files would get thru the list but emailed to jlkonn at hotmail.com would be great! Thanks! JLK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnhiller at earthlink.net Wed Mar 4 06:45:31 2009 From: jnhiller at earthlink.net (J N Hiller) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 15:45:31 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: <407F0195E19548EA84381E77840245F2@Mattmobile> Message-ID: Maybe I am too dense for this but I don't understand how you do that. I've seen may just go to full throttle and grab a handful of up elevator and hope for the best, often over the pits. Jim. -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Matthew Frederick Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:08 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs Oh, I meant the crosswind, but landings too ----- Original Message ----- From: "J N Hiller" To: "General pattern discussion" Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:21 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > Right throttle is used to control climb and decent. I have even set some > up > elevator mix on non-flap equipped models to reduce the speed on final. The > yaw and wind drift are what need constant attention. > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Matthew > Frederick > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 6:48 PM > To: General pattern discussion > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > No argument here... I manage that with throttle only... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J N Hiller" > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:14 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > >> I've seen a lot of what you are talking about. IMAC airplanes are much >> like >> pattern airplanes although less forgiving of pilot error. >> Cubs are scale airplanes also and making an on-line takeoff and landing >> including climb-out and final in a quartering or crosswind with a high >> wing >> scale airplane is probably the most difficult and attention demanding >> thing >> an RC pilot can do. Cross controlling on the ground is needed and the >> pilot >> needs to transition to an upwind yaw as the wheels leave the ground to >> hold >> the line during climb-out. Cross controlling needs to be reapplied just >> before touchdown to prevent a downwind roll with rudder as airplane >> steered >> along the centerline. It really is fun requiring nearly maximum use of >> the >> old processor. Flying a pattern airplane in a crosswind is a piece of >> cake >> by comparison. >> >> Jim >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org >> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of John >> Pavlick >> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:21 PM >> To: General pattern discussion >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs >> >> >> >> OK, maybe that should only apply to some of the warbird guys in my club. >> I >> forgot, IMAC birds are "scale" too. :) >> >> >> >> John Pavlick >> >> --- On Tue, 3/3/09, J N Hiller wrote: >> >> From: J N Hiller >> Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs >> To: jpavlick at idseng.com, "General pattern discussion" >> >> Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 7:30 PM >> >> >> Hay, now I'm offended. Not all scale pilots have wild takeoffs. >> >> Jim >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From jnhiller at earthlink.net Wed Mar 4 06:46:35 2009 From: jnhiller at earthlink.net (J N Hiller) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 15:46:35 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The left and right throttle stick is connected to the rudder. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Richard Strickland Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:07 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs What do you use the left throttle for...? I couldn't help it... RS > From: jnhiller at earthlink.net > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 19:21:56 -0800 > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > Right throttle is used to control climb and decent. I have even set some up > elevator mix on non-flap equipped models to reduce the speed on final. The > yaw and wind drift are what need constant attention. > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Matthew > Frederick > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 6:48 PM > To: General pattern discussion > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > No argument here... I manage that with throttle only... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J N Hiller" > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:14 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > I've seen a lot of what you are talking about. IMAC airplanes are much > > like > > pattern airplanes although less forgiving of pilot error. > > Cubs are scale airplanes also and making an on-line takeoff and landing > > including climb-out and final in a quartering or crosswind with a high > > wing > > scale airplane is probably the most difficult and attention demanding > > thing > > an RC pilot can do. Cross controlling on the ground is needed and the > > pilot > > needs to transition to an upwind yaw as the wheels leave the ground to > > hold > > the line during climb-out. Cross controlling needs to be reapplied just > > before touchdown to prevent a downwind roll with rudder as airplane > > steered > > along the centerline. It really is fun requiring nearly maximum use of the > > old processor. Flying a pattern airplane in a crosswind is a piece of cake > > by comparison. > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of John Pavlick > > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:21 PM > > To: General pattern discussion > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > > > > > OK, maybe that should only apply to some of the warbird guys in my club. I > > forgot, IMAC birds are "scale" too. :) > > > > > > > > John Pavlick > > > > --- On Tue, 3/3/09, J N Hiller wrote: > > > > From: J N Hiller > > Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > To: jpavlick at idseng.com, "General pattern discussion" > > > > Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 7:30 PM > > > > > > Hay, now I'm offended. Not all scale pilots have wild takeoffs. > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail?. See how. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnhiller at earthlink.net Wed Mar 4 06:46:52 2009 From: jnhiller at earthlink.net (J N Hiller) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 15:46:52 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: <723AE371B43844298BB541E4156DB765@Mattmobile> Message-ID: Me to. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Matthew Frederick Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:08 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs LOL ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Strickland To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 11:07 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs What do you use the left throttle for...? I couldn't help it... RS > From: jnhiller at earthlink.net > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 19:21:56 -0800 > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > Right throttle is used to control climb and decent. I have even set some up > elevator mix on non-flap equipped models to reduce the speed on final. The > yaw and wind drift are what need constant attention. > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Matthew > Frederick > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 6:48 PM > To: General pattern discussion > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > No argument here... I manage that with throttle only... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J N Hiller" > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:14 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > I've seen a lot of what you are talking about. IMAC airplanes are much > > like > > pattern airplanes although less forgiving of pilot error. > > Cubs are scale airplanes also and making an on-line takeoff and landing > > including climb-out and final in a quartering or crosswind with a high > > wing > > scale airplane is probably the most difficult and attention demanding > > thing > > an RC pilot can do. Cross controlling on the ground is needed and the > > pilot > > needs to transition to an upwind yaw as the wheels leave the ground to > > hold > > the line during climb-out. Cross controlling needs to be reapplied just > > before touchdown to prevent a downwind roll with rudder as airplane > > steered > > along the centerline. It really is fun requiring nearly maximum use of the > > old processor. Flying a pattern airplane in a crosswind is a piece of cake > > by comparison. > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of John Pavlick > > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:21 PM > > To: General pattern discussion > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > > > > > OK, maybe that should only apply to some of the warbird guys in my club. I > > forgot, IMAC birds are "scale" too. :) > > > > > > > > John Pavlick > > > > --- On Tue, 3/3/09, J N Hiller wrote: > > > > From: J N Hiller > > Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > To: jpavlick at idseng.com, "General pattern discussion" > > > > Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 7:30 PM > > > > > > Hay, now I'm offended. Not all scale pilots have wild takeoffs. > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail?. See how. _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnhiller at earthlink.net Wed Mar 4 07:01:17 2009 From: jnhiller at earthlink.net (J N Hiller) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 16:01:17 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Back issues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes Derek requested old K-factors on 2-21 to scan. I sent what I had but I don't think I had any that old. He may have gotten some from someone else, I don't know. Maureen also posted on 2-22 (Re NSRCA History Project) indicating that she had worked with AMA to put together a complete set for the museum. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of John Konneker Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:20 AM To: Discussion List Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Back issues The other day there was some discussion about back issues of the K-Factor. If anyone has any scans of issues from 1983 and 1984 I would really appreciate seeing them. Don't know if the files would get thru the list but emailed to jlkonn at hotmail.com would be great! Thanks! JLK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlkonn at hotmail.com Wed Mar 4 07:49:35 2009 From: jlkonn at hotmail.com (John Konneker) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 16:49:35 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Back issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Jim! JLK From: jnhiller at earthlink.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 08:01:19 -0800 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Back issues Yes Derek requested old K-factors on 2-21 to scan. I sent what I had but I don't think I had any that old. He may have gotten some from someone else, I don't know. Maureen also posted on 2-22 (Re NSRCA History Project) indicating that she had worked with AMA to put together a complete set for the museum. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of John Konneker Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:20 AM To: Discussion List Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Back issues The other day there was some discussion about back issues of the K-Factor. If anyone has any scans of issues from 1983 and 1984 I would really appreciate seeing them. Don't know if the files would get thru the list but emailed to jlkonn at hotmail.com would be great! Thanks! JLK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From derekkoopowitz at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 08:15:43 2009 From: derekkoopowitz at gmail.com (Derek Koopowitz) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 17:15:43 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Back issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2A11FE24025046E1A3A346B68CC682AA@BENICIA> Thanks for those back issues, Jim. Jim sent me everything he had from 1986 onwards (until the end of 1992). Unfortunately I don't have anything for 1983/1984 at all. _____ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of J N Hiller Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 8:01 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Back issues Yes Derek requested old K-factors on 2-21 to scan. I sent what I had but I don't think I had any that old. He may have gotten some from someone else, I don't know. Maureen also posted on 2-22 (Re NSRCA History Project) indicating that she had worked with AMA to put together a complete set for the museum. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of John Konneker Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:20 AM To: Discussion List Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Back issues The other day there was some discussion about back issues of the K-Factor. If anyone has any scans of issues from 1983 and 1984 I would really appreciate seeing them. Don't know if the files would get thru the list but emailed to jlkonn at hotmail.com would be great! Thanks! JLK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vanputte at cox.net Wed Mar 4 09:25:27 2009 From: vanputte at cox.net (Ron Van Putte) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 18:25:27 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Back issues In-Reply-To: <2A11FE24025046E1A3A346B68CC682AA@BENICIA> References: <2A11FE24025046E1A3A346B68CC682AA@BENICIA> Message-ID: <80CFD333-4B23-4A74-98B8-08B612E32D3D@cox.net> When I can get in my attic, I will look for 1983/1984 K-Factors. I have boxes of old Model Airplane News, R/C Modeler, R/C Report and Flying Models. BTW, I think I have a fortune in complete years of old Playboy issues from 20 -30, maybe 40 years ago. Ron On Mar 4, 2009, at 11:15 AM, Derek Koopowitz wrote: > Thanks for those back issues, Jim. Jim sent me everything he had > from 1986 onwards (until the end of 1992). Unfortunately I don't > have anything for 1983/1984 at all. > > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca- > discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of J N Hiller > Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 8:01 AM > To: General pattern discussion > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Back issues > > Yes Derek requested old K-factors on 2-21 to scan. I sent what I > had but I don't think I had any that old. He may have gotten some > from someone else, I don't know. Maureen also posted on 2-22 (Re > NSRCA History Project) indicating that she had worked with AMA to > put together a complete set for the museum. > > Jim > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca- > discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of John Konneker > Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:20 AM > To: Discussion List > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Back issues > > > > The other day there was some discussion about back issues of the K- > Factor. > If anyone has any scans of issues from 1983 and 1984 I would really > appreciate seeing them. Don't know if the files would get thru the > list but > emailed to jlkonn at hotmail.com would be great! > Thanks! > JLK > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From lightfoot at sc.rr.com Wed Mar 4 10:03:34 2009 From: lightfoot at sc.rr.com (Jay Marshall) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 19:03:34 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Back issues In-Reply-To: <80CFD333-4B23-4A74-98B8-08B612E32D3D@cox.net> Message-ID: <99BF0C2C52014B31963BA97CC9C56928@jaysdesktop> You may have old Playboy issues, but I have one of the original Playboy Club membership cards. HA! Jay Marshall -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ron Van Putte Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 1:25 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Back issues When I can get in my attic, I will look for 1983/1984 K-Factors. I have boxes of old Model Airplane News, R/C Modeler, R/C Report and Flying Models. BTW, I think I have a fortune in complete years of old Playboy issues from 20 -30, maybe 40 years ago. Ron On Mar 4, 2009, at 11:15 AM, Derek Koopowitz wrote: > Thanks for those back issues, Jim. Jim sent me everything he had > from 1986 onwards (until the end of 1992). Unfortunately I don't > have anything for 1983/1984 at all. > > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca- > discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of J N Hiller > Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 8:01 AM > To: General pattern discussion > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Back issues > > Yes Derek requested old K-factors on 2-21 to scan. I sent what I > had but I don't think I had any that old. He may have gotten some > from someone else, I don't know. Maureen also posted on 2-22 (Re > NSRCA History Project) indicating that she had worked with AMA to > put together a complete set for the museum. > > Jim > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca- > discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of John Konneker > Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:20 AM > To: Discussion List > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Back issues > > > > The other day there was some discussion about back issues of the K- > Factor. > If anyone has any scans of issues from 1983 and 1984 I would really > appreciate seeing them. Don't know if the files would get thru the > list but > emailed to jlkonn at hotmail.com would be great! > Thanks! > JLK > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From edbon85 at tds.net Wed Mar 4 10:16:08 2009 From: edbon85 at tds.net (Ed Miller) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 19:16:08 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Sale References: <2A11FE24025046E1A3A346B68CC682AA@BENICIA> Message-ID: <214211CD8D9549888FE9EA7F70F42862@millertoy> For various reasons, I am leaving the RC hobby completely. Attached is approximately 75% of all my "collection". I had hoped to sell it all as one lot and had several interested parties but talk and action are worlds apart. Before I start placing these items on Ebay to sell to the highest bidder, I figured I'd offer my stuff to the senior and AMA pattern community one last time as there is much pattern related equipment. If you see something of interest, contact me offline. Ed Miller ----- Original Message ----- From: Derek Koopowitz To: 'General pattern discussion' Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:15 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Back issues Thanks for those back issues, Jim. Jim sent me everything he had from 1986 onwards (until the end of 1992). Unfortunately I don't have anything for 1983/1984 at all. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of J N Hiller Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 8:01 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Back issues Yes Derek requested old K-factors on 2-21 to scan. I sent what I had but I don't think I had any that old. He may have gotten some from someone else, I don't know. Maureen also posted on 2-22 (Re NSRCA History Project) indicating that she had worked with AMA to put together a complete set for the museum. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of John Konneker Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:20 AM To: Discussion List Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Back issues The other day there was some discussion about back issues of the K-Factor. If anyone has any scans of issues from 1983 and 1984 I would really appreciate seeing them. Don't know if the files would get thru the list but emailed to jlkonn at hotmail.com would be great! Thanks! JLK ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Airplane_stuff.rtf Type: application/msword Size: 20541 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tony at radiosouthrc.com Wed Mar 4 10:25:47 2009 From: tony at radiosouthrc.com (Tony) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 19:25:47 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Sale In-Reply-To: <214211CD8D9549888FE9EA7F70F42862@millertoy> References: <2A11FE24025046E1A3A346B68CC682AA@BENICIA> <214211CD8D9549888FE9EA7F70F42862@millertoy> Message-ID: <9E0EFE9A934D411FA38473519549092A@Tony> Ed: I'm interested in the Compensator. I need your e-mail address. Tony Stillman, President Radio South, Inc. 139 Altama Connector, Box 322 Brunswick, GA 31525 1-800-962-7802 www.radiosouthrc.com _____ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ed Miller Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 2:16 PM To: General pattern discussion; discussion at seniorpattern.com Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] For Sale For various reasons, I am leaving the RC hobby completely. Attached is approximately 75% of all my "collection". I had hoped to sell it all as one lot and had several interested parties but talk and action are worlds apart. Before I start placing these items on Ebay to sell to the highest bidder, I figured I'd offer my stuff to the senior and AMA pattern community one last time as there is much pattern related equipment. If you see something of interest, contact me offline. Ed Miller ----- Original Message ----- From: Derek Koopowitz To: 'General pattern discussion' Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:15 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Back issues Thanks for those back issues, Jim. Jim sent me everything he had from 1986 onwards (until the end of 1992). Unfortunately I don't have anything for 1983/1984 at all. _____ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of J N Hiller Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 8:01 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Back issues Yes Derek requested old K-factors on 2-21 to scan. I sent what I had but I don't think I had any that old. He may have gotten some from someone else, I don't know. Maureen also posted on 2-22 (Re NSRCA History Project) indicating that she had worked with AMA to put together a complete set for the museum. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of John Konneker Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:20 AM To: Discussion List Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Back issues The other day there was some discussion about back issues of the K-Factor. If anyone has any scans of issues from 1983 and 1984 I would really appreciate seeing them. Don't know if the files would get thru the list but emailed to jlkonn at hotmail.com would be great! Thanks! JLK _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From edbon85 at tds.net Wed Mar 4 10:29:58 2009 From: edbon85 at tds.net (Ed Miller) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 19:29:58 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Sale References: <2A11FE24025046E1A3A346B68CC682AA@BENICIA><214211CD8D9549888FE9EA7F70F42862@millertoy> <9E0EFE9A934D411FA38473519549092A@Tony> Message-ID: <4E36E66505424BA681E3BB6EF6EF2C18@millertoy> edbon85 at tds.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony To: 'General pattern discussion' Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 2:25 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] For Sale Ed: I'm interested in the Compensator. I need your e-mail address. Tony Stillman, President Radio South, Inc. 139 Altama Connector, Box 322 Brunswick, GA 31525 1-800-962-7802 www.radiosouthrc.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ed Miller Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 2:16 PM To: General pattern discussion; discussion at seniorpattern.com Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] For Sale For various reasons, I am leaving the RC hobby completely. Attached is approximately 75% of all my "collection". I had hoped to sell it all as one lot and had several interested parties but talk and action are worlds apart. Before I start placing these items on Ebay to sell to the highest bidder, I figured I'd offer my stuff to the senior and AMA pattern community one last time as there is much pattern related equipment. If you see something of interest, contact me offline. Ed Miller ----- Original Message ----- From: Derek Koopowitz To: 'General pattern discussion' Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:15 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Back issues Thanks for those back issues, Jim. Jim sent me everything he had from 1986 onwards (until the end of 1992). Unfortunately I don't have anything for 1983/1984 at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of J N Hiller Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 8:01 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Back issues Yes Derek requested old K-factors on 2-21 to scan. I sent what I had but I don't think I had any that old. He may have gotten some from someone else, I don't know. Maureen also posted on 2-22 (Re NSRCA History Project) indicating that she had worked with AMA to put together a complete set for the museum. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of John Konneker Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:20 AM To: Discussion List Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Back issues The other day there was some discussion about back issues of the K-Factor. If anyone has any scans of issues from 1983 and 1984 I would really appreciate seeing them. Don't know if the files would get thru the list but emailed to jlkonn at hotmail.com would be great! Thanks! JLK ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at toprudder.com Wed Mar 4 11:29:09 2009 From: bob at toprudder.com (Bob Richards) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 20:29:09 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs Message-ID: <75325.51375.qm@web1112.biz.mail.sk1.yahoo.com> Yeah, but the 3D guys that like to hover and torque roll a few feet from the flightline scare me too! --- On Tue, 3/3/09, John Pavlick wrote: Oh yeah, it's?still a good idea to run from the scale airplanes! Especially at my club field!? LOL ? John Pavlick From bob at toprudder.com Wed Mar 4 11:40:16 2009 From: bob at toprudder.com (Bob Richards) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 20:40:16 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs Message-ID: <939047.50316.qm@web1105.biz.mail.sk1.yahoo.com> With the pull-string sticking out of the tail. ;-) --- On Tue, 3/3/09, J N Hiller wrote: > > Isn't the > bag put in the airplane? It'll be there when you need > it. > > From bob at toprudder.com Wed Mar 4 11:44:32 2009 From: bob at toprudder.com (Bob Richards) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 20:44:32 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs Message-ID: <368880.69301.qm@web1110.biz.mail.sk1.yahoo.com> Only if the discussion "stalls". :-> --- On Tue, 3/3/09, Ron Van Putte wrote: > Yeah and, if things get slow, we can > always start/restart one on spins and snaps. > From jlkonn at hotmail.com Thu Mar 5 15:59:04 2009 From: jlkonn at hotmail.com (John Konneker) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 00:59:04 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: References: <407F0195E19548EA84381E77840245F2@Mattmobile> Message-ID: test > From: jnhiller at earthlink.net > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 07:45:34 -0800 > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > Maybe I am too dense for this but I don't understand how you do that. I've > seen may just go to full throttle and grab a handful of up elevator and hope > for the best, often over the pits. > Jim. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Matthew > Frederick > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:08 PM > To: General pattern discussion > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > Oh, I meant the crosswind, but landings too > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J N Hiller" > To: "General pattern discussion" > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:21 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > Right throttle is used to control climb and decent. I have even set some > > up > > elevator mix on non-flap equipped models to reduce the speed on final. The > > yaw and wind drift are what need constant attention. > > Jim > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Matthew > > Frederick > > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 6:48 PM > > To: General pattern discussion > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > No argument here... I manage that with throttle only... > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "J N Hiller" > > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" > > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:14 PM > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > > >> I've seen a lot of what you are talking about. IMAC airplanes are much > >> like > >> pattern airplanes although less forgiving of pilot error. > >> Cubs are scale airplanes also and making an on-line takeoff and landing > >> including climb-out and final in a quartering or crosswind with a high > >> wing > >> scale airplane is probably the most difficult and attention demanding > >> thing > >> an RC pilot can do. Cross controlling on the ground is needed and the > >> pilot > >> needs to transition to an upwind yaw as the wheels leave the ground to > >> hold > >> the line during climb-out. Cross controlling needs to be reapplied just > >> before touchdown to prevent a downwind roll with rudder as airplane > >> steered > >> along the centerline. It really is fun requiring nearly maximum use of > >> the > >> old processor. Flying a pattern airplane in a crosswind is a piece of > >> cake > >> by comparison. > >> > >> Jim > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > >> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of John > >> Pavlick > >> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:21 PM > >> To: General pattern discussion > >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > >> > >> > >> > >> OK, maybe that should only apply to some of the warbird guys in my club. > >> I > >> forgot, IMAC birds are "scale" too. :) > >> > >> > >> > >> John Pavlick > >> > >> --- On Tue, 3/3/09, J N Hiller wrote: > >> > >> From: J N Hiller > >> Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > >> To: jpavlick at idseng.com, "General pattern discussion" > >> > >> Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 7:30 PM > >> > >> > >> Hay, now I'm offended. Not all scale pilots have wild takeoffs. > >> > >> Jim > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list > >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > _______________________________________________ > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iflyrc24 at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 16:09:34 2009 From: iflyrc24 at gmail.com (iflyrc24 at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 01:09:34 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: References: <407F0195E19548EA84381E77840245F2@Mattmobile> Message-ID: <1578470726-1236301781-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1027896702-@bxe1189.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Works here John Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: John Konneker Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 18:59:08 To: Discussion List Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From Tim.Pascoe at ec.gc.ca Fri Mar 6 06:24:43 2009 From: Tim.Pascoe at ec.gc.ca (Pascoe,Tim [Burlington]) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 15:24:43 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] List Down Message-ID: <2DC5CCA14756424BBBEE8B4B2E4A682F09BA4771@ecburexch1.ontario.int.ec.gc.ca> Did the list go down, or did it just suddenly get really, really quiet? Or, as I suspect, am I suffering a technical glitch? Tim Pascoe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jaqfly at prodigy.net Fri Mar 6 06:30:58 2009 From: jaqfly at prodigy.net (Jim Quinn) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 15:30:58 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] List Down References: <2DC5CCA14756424BBBEE8B4B2E4A682F09BA4771@ecburexch1.ontario.int.ec.gc.ca> Message-ID: <764445.25904.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Tim, The list is fine. Jim Quinn ________________________________ From: "Pascoe,Tim [Burlington]" To: General pattern discussion Sent: Friday, March 6, 2009 10:24:38 AM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] List Down Did the list go down, or did it just suddenly get really, really quiet? Or, as I suspect, am I suffering a technical glitch? ? Tim Pascoe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lightfoot at sc.rr.com Fri Mar 6 06:32:38 2009 From: lightfoot at sc.rr.com (Jay Marshall) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 15:32:38 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] List Down In-Reply-To: <2DC5CCA14756424BBBEE8B4B2E4A682F09BA4771@ecburexch1.ontario.int.ec.gc.ca> Message-ID: Quiet. Jay Marshall -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Pascoe,Tim [Burlington] Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 10:25 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] List Down Did the list go down, or did it just suddenly get really, really quiet? Or, as I suspect, am I suffering a technical glitch? Tim Pascoe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billglaze at bellsouth.net Fri Mar 6 06:35:07 2009 From: billglaze at bellsouth.net (billglaze) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 15:35:07 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs References: <407F0195E19548EA84381E77840245F2@Mattmobile> Message-ID: <002501c99e71$20a7a300$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> O.K., this has gone far afield since I originally started the discussion. But, I believe it has blown away some of the smoke I had seen obscuring the subject/problem. So: If the airplane lands in the Landing Zone, (LZ) I will watch it for only the first 50 ft.and judge on that only. (That was never my real question, but just for clarification.) In the event the Landing Zone has been declared to be the entire mowed portion or some portion thereof, should the plane land at the far end of the strip, it will still be judged on the first 50 ft. of roll out, and, if it becomes entangled in the long grass, making it swerve, for example, it will be a downgrade. If, for any reason, (including being in the rough; doesn't matter the reason) it should end up on it's back, it will be a zero. Nosing over, ground looping, hooking a wing, etc. will be cause for a downgrade. If it lands outside the LZ, but within the LA, it will be a downgrade, unless, within the first 50 ft. it should finish on it's back, (mandatory 0) or ground loop, or hook a wing, or nose over, but not turn over, it will be a downgrade based on the severity. At least, that's my impression Thanks for y'all's patience. Bill Glaze ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker To: Discussion List Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 7:59 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs test > From: jnhiller at earthlink.net > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 07:45:34 -0800 > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > Maybe I am too dense for this but I don't understand how you do that. I've > seen may just go to full throttle and grab a handful of up elevator and hope > for the best, often over the pits. > Jim. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Matthew > Frederick > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:08 PM > To: General pattern discussion > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > Oh, I meant the crosswind, but landings too > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J N Hiller" > To: "General pattern discussion" > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:21 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > Right throttle is used to control climb and decent. I have even set some > > up > > elevator mix on non-flap equipped models to reduce the speed on final. The > > yaw and wind drift are what need constant attention. > > Jim > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Matthew > > Frederick > > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 6:48 PM > > To: General pattern discussion > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > No argument here... I manage that with throttle only... > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "J N Hiller" > > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" > > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:14 PM > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > > >> I've seen a lot of what you are talking about. IMAC airplanes are much > >> like > >> pattern airplanes although less forgiving of pilot error. > >> Cubs are scale airplanes also and making an on-line takeoff and landing > >> including climb-out and final in a quartering or crosswind with a high > >> wing > >> scale airplane is probably the most difficult and attention demanding > >> thing > >> an RC pilot can do. Cross controlling on the ground is needed and the > >> pilot > >> needs to transition to an upwind yaw as the wheels leave the ground to > >> hold > >> the line during climb-out. Cross controlling needs to be reapplied just > >> before touchdown to prevent a downwind roll with rudder as airplane > >> steered > >> along the centerline. It really is fun requiring nearly maximum use of > >> the > >> old processor. Flying a pattern airplane in a crosswind is a piece of > >> cake > >> by comparison. > >> > >> Jim > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > >> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of John > >> Pavlick > >> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:21 PM > >> To: General pattern discussion > >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > >> > >> > >> > >> OK, maybe that should only apply to some of the warbird guys in my club. > >> I > >> forgot, IMAC birds are "scale" too. :) > >> > >> > >> > >> John Pavlick > >> > >> --- On Tue, 3/3/09, J N Hiller wrote: > >> > >> From: J N Hiller > >> Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > >> To: jpavlick at idseng.com, "General pattern discussion" > >> > >> Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 7:30 PM > >> > >> > >> Hay, now I'm offended. Not all scale pilots have wild takeoffs. > >> > >> Jim > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list > >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > _______________________________________________ > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Tim.Pascoe at ec.gc.ca Fri Mar 6 06:51:00 2009 From: Tim.Pascoe at ec.gc.ca (Pascoe,Tim [Burlington]) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 15:51:00 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] List Down In-Reply-To: References: <2DC5CCA14756424BBBEE8B4B2E4A682F09BA4771@ecburexch1.ontario.int.ec.gc.ca> Message-ID: <2DC5CCA14756424BBBEE8B4B2E4A682F09BA477C@ecburexch1.ontario.int.ec.gc.ca> Wow. After the onslaught of judging and landing threads, it seemed eerily quiet. Guess everyone is just recovering from all that typing...... Timothy Pascoe Physical Sciences Specialist Yak Shaving - Any seemingly pointless activity which is actually necessary to solve a problem which solves a problem which, several levels of recursion later, solves the real problem you're working on Environment Canada / Environnement Canada Canada Centre for Inland Waters / Centre Canadien des Eaux Int?rieures 867 Lakeshore Road / 867, chemin Lakeshore Burlington, Ontario / Burlington (Ontario) L7R 4A6 Tel/T?l: (905) 336-6239 Fax/T?l?c: (905) 336-4609 E-mail/C. ?lec: tim.pascoe at ec.gc.ca Government of Canada/Gouvernement du Canada This e-mail represents the opinions and views solely held by its author and in no manner may be considered as representing those of his/her employer. ________________________________ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Jay Marshall Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 10:32 AM To: 'General pattern discussion' Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] List Down Quiet... Jay Marshall -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Pascoe,Tim [Burlington] Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 10:25 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] List Down Did the list go down, or did it just suddenly get really, really quiet? Or, as I suspect, am I suffering a technical glitch? Tim Pascoe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lightfoot at sc.rr.com Fri Mar 6 06:55:28 2009 From: lightfoot at sc.rr.com (Jay Marshall) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 15:55:28 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] List Down In-Reply-To: <2DC5CCA14756424BBBEE8B4B2E4A682F09BA477C@ecburexch1.ontario.int.ec.gc.ca> Message-ID: <9198F5DC62E24FE3B9B10186F15603A3@jaysdesktop> They all went to Perry, GA for the big swap . Jay Marshall -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Pascoe,Tim [Burlington] Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 10:51 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] List Down Wow. After the onslaught of judging and landing threads, it seemed eerily quiet. Guess everyone is just recovering from all that typing Timothy Pascoe Physical Sciences Specialist Yak Shaving - Any seemingly pointless activity which is actually necessary to solve a problem which solves a problem which, several levels of recursion later, solves the real problem you're working on Environment Canada / Environnement Canada Canada Centre for Inland Waters / Centre Canadien des Eaux Int?rieures 867 Lakeshore Road / 867, chemin Lakeshore Burlington, Ontario / Burlington (Ontario) L7R 4A6 Tel/T?l: (905) 336-6239 Fax/T?l?c: (905) 336-4609 E-mail/C. ?lec: tim.pascoe at ec.gc.ca Government of Canada/Gouvernement du Canada This e-mail represents the opinions and views solely held by its author and in no manner may be considered as representing those of his/her employer. _____ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Jay Marshall Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 10:32 AM To: 'General pattern discussion' Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] List Down Quiet Jay Marshall -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Pascoe,Tim [Burlington] Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 10:25 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] List Down Did the list go down, or did it just suddenly get really, really quiet? Or, as I suspect, am I suffering a technical glitch? Tim Pascoe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pamrich47 at hotmail.com Fri Mar 6 06:59:02 2009 From: pamrich47 at hotmail.com (Richard Strickland) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 15:59:02 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] List Down In-Reply-To: <2DC5CCA14756424BBBEE8B4B2E4A682F09BA477C@ecburexch1.ontario.int.ec.gc.ca> References: <2DC5CCA14756424BBBEE8B4B2E4A682F09BA4771@ecburexch1.ontario.int.ec.gc.ca> <2DC5CCA14756424BBBEE8B4B2E4A682F09BA477C@ecburexch1.ontario.int.ec.gc.ca> Message-ID: Headlines: Outbreak of decent weather in the Midwest--pattern flyers trying to figure out how to load their cars again--and trying not to forget wing tubes or transmitters... RS Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 10:50:57 -0500 From: Tim.Pascoe at ec.gc.ca To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] List Down Wow. After the onslaught of judging and landing threads, it seemed eerily quiet. Guess everyone is just recovering from all that typing?? Timothy Pascoe Physical Sciences Specialist Yak Shaving - Any seemingly pointless activity which is actually necessary to solve a problem which solves a problem which, several levels of recursion later, solves the real problem you're working on Environment Canada / Environnement Canada Canada Centre for Inland Waters / Centre Canadien des Eaux Int?rieures 867 Lakeshore Road / 867, chemin Lakeshore Burlington, Ontario / Burlington (Ontario) L7R 4A6 Tel/T?l: (905) 336-6239 Fax/T?l?c: (905) 336-4609 E-mail/C. ?lec: tim.pascoe at ec.gc.ca Government of Canada/Gouvernement du Canada This e-mail represents the opinions and views solely held by its author and in no manner may be considered as representing those of his/her employer. From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Jay Marshall Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 10:32 AM To: 'General pattern discussion' Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] List Down Quiet? Jay Marshall -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Pascoe,Tim [Burlington] Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 10:25 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] List Down Did the list go down, or did it just suddenly get really, really quiet? Or, as I suspect, am I suffering a technical glitch? Tim Pascoe _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Life without walls. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_allup_1a_explore_032009 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patrnflyr at hotmail.com Fri Mar 6 07:30:28 2009 From: patrnflyr at hotmail.com (John Johnson) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 16:30:28 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] YS 1.40DZ for sale Message-ID: I'm putting on the list a YS 1.40DZ that was flown for 1 season before I converted to electrics. After it was taken out of the plane, I sent it in for a checkup at YS performance just to bring it back up to new status. I don't know what they're worth now so make me a reasonable offer! John _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? Contacts: Organize your contact list. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/marcusatmicrosoft.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!503D1D86EBB2B53C!2285.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_UGC_Contacts_032009 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patternpilot at verizon.net Fri Mar 6 09:07:33 2009 From: patternpilot at verizon.net (Dennis Cone) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 18:07:33 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] RC Showcase Message-ID: <8585A9271323436F9B9EA647FB96CCC3@Dennis> Just got word that RC Showcase has been sold to Troybuilt models. They are not answering their phones anymore and there is a message on their answering machine that they have been sold. Don't know what this will mean to those who may have warranty issues or to prices. Here is the link. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_8550252/anchors_8550252/mpage_1/key_/ancho r/tm.htm#8550252 Dennis Cone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From don.ramsey at suddenlink.net Fri Mar 6 13:11:36 2009 From: don.ramsey at suddenlink.net (Don Ramsey) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 22:11:36 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: <002501c99e71$20a7a300$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> References: <407F0195E19548EA84381E77840245F2@Mattmobile> <002501c99e71$20a7a300$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Message-ID: <049201c99ea8$8a886a20$9f993e60$@ramsey@suddenlink.net> Bill, No, I'm sorry, that is not correct. For max points the model must land in the landing zone, usually 15 meters (about 50 feet) centered on the judges. It only need roll 10 meters (about 33 feet) and be below flying speed to end the landing. Don From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of billglaze Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 9:35 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs O.K., this has gone far afield since I originally started the discussion. But, I believe it has blown away some of the smoke I had seen obscuring the subject/problem. So: If the airplane lands in the Landing Zone, (LZ) I will watch it for only the first 50 ft.and judge on that only. (That was never my real question, but just for clarification.) In the event the Landing Zone has been declared to be the entire mowed portion or some portion thereof, should the plane land at the far end of the strip, it will still be judged on the first 50 ft. of roll out, and, if it becomes entangled in the long grass, making it swerve, for example, it will be a downgrade. If, for any reason, (including being in the rough; doesn't matter the reason) it should end up on it's back, it will be a zero. Nosing over, ground looping, hooking a wing, etc. will be cause for a downgrade. If it lands outside the LZ, but within the LA, it will be a downgrade, unless, within the first 50 ft. it should finish on it's back, (mandatory 0) or ground loop, or hook a wing, or nose over, but not turn over, it will be a downgrade based on the severity. At least, that's my impression Thanks for y'all's patience. Bill Glaze ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker To: Discussion List Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 7:59 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs test > From: jnhiller at earthlink.net > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 07:45:34 -0800 > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > Maybe I am too dense for this but I don't understand how you do that. I've > seen may just go to full throttle and grab a handful of up elevator and hope > for the best, often over the pits. > Jim. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Matthew > Frederick > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:08 PM > To: General pattern discussion > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > Oh, I meant the crosswind, but landings too > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J N Hiller" > To: "General pattern discussion" > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:21 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > Right throttle is used to control climb and decent. I have even set some > > up > > elevator mix on non-flap equipped models to reduce the speed on final. The > > yaw and wind drift are what need constant attention. > > Jim > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Matthew > > Frederick > > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 6:48 PM > > To: General pattern discussion > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > No argument here... I manage that with throttle only... > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "J N Hiller" > > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" > > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:14 PM > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > > >> I've seen a lot of what you are talking about. IMAC airplanes are much > >> like > >> pattern airplanes although less forgiving of pilot error. > >> Cubs are scale airplanes also and making an on-line takeoff and landing > >> including climb-out and final in a quartering or crosswind with a high > >> wing > >> scale airplane is probably the most difficult and attention demanding > >> thing > >> an RC pilot can do. Cross controlling on the ground is needed and the > >> pilot > >> needs to transition to an upwind yaw as the wheels leave the ground to > >> hold > >> the line during climb-out. Cross controlling needs to be reapplied just > >> before touchdown to prevent a downwind roll with rudder as airplane > >> steered > >> along the centerline. It really is fun requiring nearly maximum use of > >> the > >> old processor. Flying a pattern airplane in a crosswind is a piece of > >> cake > >> by comparison. > >> > >> Jim > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > >> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of John > >> Pavlick > >> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:21 PM > >> To: General pattern discussion > >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > >> > >> > >> > >> OK, maybe that should only apply to some of the warbird guys in my club. > >> I > >> forgot, IMAC birds are "scale" too. :) > >> > >> > >> > >> John Pavlick > >> > >> --- On Tue, 3/3/09, J N Hiller wrote: > >> > >> From: J N Hiller > >> Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > >> To: jpavlick at idseng.com, "General pattern discussion" > >> > >> Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 7:30 PM > >> > >> > >> Hay, now I'm offended. Not all scale pilots have wild takeoffs. > >> > >> Jim > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list > >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > _______________________________________________ > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From don.ramsey at suddenlink.net Fri Mar 6 13:19:15 2009 From: don.ramsey at suddenlink.net (Don Ramsey) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 22:19:15 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: <049201c99ea8$8a886a20$9f993e60$@ramsey@suddenlink.net> References: <407F0195E19548EA84381E77840245F2@Mattmobile> <002501c99e71$20a7a300$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> <049201c99ea8$8a886a20$9f993e60$@ramsey@suddenlink.net> Message-ID: <049d01c99ea9$9c108600$d4319200$@ramsey@suddenlink.net> Sorry about that last incorrect statement. The landing zone is 30 meters centered on the judges. About 50 feet either side of center! Don From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Don Ramsey Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 4:12 PM To: 'General pattern discussion' Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs Bill, No, I'm sorry, that is not correct. For max points the model must land in the landing zone, usually 15 meters (about 50 feet) centered on the judges. It only need roll 10 meters (about 33 feet) and be below flying speed to end the landing. Don From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of billglaze Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 9:35 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs O.K., this has gone far afield since I originally started the discussion. But, I believe it has blown away some of the smoke I had seen obscuring the subject/problem. So: If the airplane lands in the Landing Zone, (LZ) I will watch it for only the first 50 ft.and judge on that only. (That was never my real question, but just for clarification.) In the event the Landing Zone has been declared to be the entire mowed portion or some portion thereof, should the plane land at the far end of the strip, it will still be judged on the first 50 ft. of roll out, and, if it becomes entangled in the long grass, making it swerve, for example, it will be a downgrade. If, for any reason, (including being in the rough; doesn't matter the reason) it should end up on it's back, it will be a zero. Nosing over, ground looping, hooking a wing, etc. will be cause for a downgrade. If it lands outside the LZ, but within the LA, it will be a downgrade, unless, within the first 50 ft. it should finish on it's back, (mandatory 0) or ground loop, or hook a wing, or nose over, but not turn over, it will be a downgrade based on the severity. At least, that's my impression Thanks for y'all's patience. Bill Glaze ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker To: Discussion List Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 7:59 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs test > From: jnhiller at earthlink.net > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 07:45:34 -0800 > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > Maybe I am too dense for this but I don't understand how you do that. I've > seen may just go to full throttle and grab a handful of up elevator and hope > for the best, often over the pits. > Jim. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Matthew > Frederick > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:08 PM > To: General pattern discussion > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > Oh, I meant the crosswind, but landings too > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J N Hiller" > To: "General pattern discussion" > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:21 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > Right throttle is used to control climb and decent. I have even set some > > up > > elevator mix on non-flap equipped models to reduce the speed on final. The > > yaw and wind drift are what need constant attention. > > Jim > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Matthew > > Frederick > > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 6:48 PM > > To: General pattern discussion > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > No argument here... I manage that with throttle only... > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "J N Hiller" > > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" > > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:14 PM > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > > >> I've seen a lot of what you are talking about. IMAC airplanes are much > >> like > >> pattern airplanes although less forgiving of pilot error. > >> Cubs are scale airplanes also and making an on-line takeoff and landing > >> including climb-out and final in a quartering or crosswind with a high > >> wing > >> scale airplane is probably the most difficult and attention demanding > >> thing > >> an RC pilot can do. Cross controlling on the ground is needed and the > >> pilot > >> needs to transition to an upwind yaw as the wheels leave the ground to > >> hold > >> the line during climb-out. Cross controlling needs to be reapplied just > >> before touchdown to prevent a downwind roll with rudder as airplane > >> steered > >> along the centerline. It really is fun requiring nearly maximum use of > >> the > >> old processor. Flying a pattern airplane in a crosswind is a piece of > >> cake > >> by comparison. > >> > >> Jim > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > >> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of John > >> Pavlick > >> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:21 PM > >> To: General pattern discussion > >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > >> > >> > >> > >> OK, maybe that should only apply to some of the warbird guys in my club. > >> I > >> forgot, IMAC birds are "scale" too. :) > >> > >> > >> > >> John Pavlick > >> > >> --- On Tue, 3/3/09, J N Hiller wrote: > >> > >> From: J N Hiller > >> Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > >> To: jpavlick at idseng.com, "General pattern discussion" > >> > >> Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 7:30 PM > >> > >> > >> Hay, now I'm offended. Not all scale pilots have wild takeoffs. > >> > >> Jim > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list > >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > _______________________________________________ > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billglaze at bellsouth.net Fri Mar 6 13:21:40 2009 From: billglaze at bellsouth.net (billglaze) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 22:21:40 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs References: <407F0195E19548EA84381E77840245F2@Mattmobile> <002501c99e71$20a7a300$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> <049201c99ea8$8a886a20$9f993e60$@ramsey@suddenlink.net> Message-ID: <003901c99ea9$ea29a830$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Not to get it started again, but I posited that, as in many local contests, the LZ and the LA were one and the same. No markings on the field; in some cases, not even a marked centerline. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Ramsey To: 'General pattern discussion' Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 5:11 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs Bill, No, I'm sorry, that is not correct. For max points the model must land in the landing zone, usually 15 meters (about 50 feet) centered on the judges. It only need roll 10 meters (about 33 feet) and be below flying speed to end the landing. Don From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of billglaze Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 9:35 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs O.K., this has gone far afield since I originally started the discussion. But, I believe it has blown away some of the smoke I had seen obscuring the subject/problem. So: If the airplane lands in the Landing Zone, (LZ) I will watch it for only the first 50 ft.and judge on that only. (That was never my real question, but just for clarification.) In the event the Landing Zone has been declared to be the entire mowed portion or some portion thereof, should the plane land at the far end of the strip, it will still be judged on the first 50 ft. of roll out, and, if it becomes entangled in the long grass, making it swerve, for example, it will be a downgrade. If, for any reason, (including being in the rough; doesn't matter the reason) it should end up on it's back, it will be a zero. Nosing over, ground looping, hooking a wing, etc. will be cause for a downgrade. If it lands outside the LZ, but within the LA, it will be a downgrade, unless, within the first 50 ft. it should finish on it's back, (mandatory 0) or ground loop, or hook a wing, or nose over, but not turn over, it will be a downgrade based on the severity. At least, that's my impression Thanks for y'all's patience. Bill Glaze ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker To: Discussion List Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 7:59 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs test > From: jnhiller at earthlink.net > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 07:45:34 -0800 > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > Maybe I am too dense for this but I don't understand how you do that. I've > seen may just go to full throttle and grab a handful of up elevator and hope > for the best, often over the pits. > Jim. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Matthew > Frederick > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:08 PM > To: General pattern discussion > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > Oh, I meant the crosswind, but landings too > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J N Hiller" > To: "General pattern discussion" > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:21 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > Right throttle is used to control climb and decent. I have even set some > > up > > elevator mix on non-flap equipped models to reduce the speed on final. The > > yaw and wind drift are what need constant attention. > > Jim > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Matthew > > Frederick > > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 6:48 PM > > To: General pattern discussion > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > No argument here... I manage that with throttle only... > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "J N Hiller" > > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" > > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:14 PM > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > > >> I've seen a lot of what you are talking about. IMAC airplanes are much > >> like > >> pattern airplanes although less forgiving of pilot error. > >> Cubs are scale airplanes also and making an on-line takeoff and landing > >> including climb-out and final in a quartering or crosswind with a high > >> wing > >> scale airplane is probably the most difficult and attention demanding > >> thing > >> an RC pilot can do. Cross controlling on the ground is needed and the > >> pilot > >> needs to transition to an upwind yaw as the wheels leave the ground to > >> hold > >> the line during climb-out. Cross controlling needs to be reapplied just > >> before touchdown to prevent a downwind roll with rudder as airplane > >> steered > >> along the centerline. It really is fun requiring nearly maximum use of > >> the > >> old processor. Flying a pattern airplane in a crosswind is a piece of > >> cake > >> by comparison. > >> > >> Jim > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > >> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of John > >> Pavlick > >> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:21 PM > >> To: General pattern discussion > >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > >> > >> > >> > >> OK, maybe that should only apply to some of the warbird guys in my club. > >> I > >> forgot, IMAC birds are "scale" too. :) > >> > >> > >> > >> John Pavlick > >> > >> --- On Tue, 3/3/09, J N Hiller wrote: > >> > >> From: J N Hiller > >> Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > >> To: jpavlick at idseng.com, "General pattern discussion" > >> > >> Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 7:30 PM > >> > >> > >> Hay, now I'm offended. Not all scale pilots have wild takeoffs. > >> > >> Jim > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list > >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > _______________________________________________ > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From don.ramsey at suddenlink.net Fri Mar 6 13:25:49 2009 From: don.ramsey at suddenlink.net (Don Ramsey) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 22:25:49 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs In-Reply-To: <049d01c99ea9$9c108600$d4319200$@ramsey@suddenlink.net> References: <407F0195E19548EA84381E77840245F2@Mattmobile> <002501c99e71$20a7a300$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> <049201c99ea8$8a886a20$9f993e60$@ramsey@suddenlink.net> <049d01c99ea9$9c108600$d4319200$@ramsey@suddenlink.net> Message-ID: <04a801c99eaa$866a4470$933ecd50$@ramsey@suddenlink.net> I knew what I was trying to say, it just came out wrong. DR From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Don Ramsey Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 4:19 PM To: 'General pattern discussion' Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs Sorry about that last incorrect statement. The landing zone is 30 meters centered on the judges. About 50 feet either side of center! Don From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Don Ramsey Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 4:12 PM To: 'General pattern discussion' Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs Bill, No, I'm sorry, that is not correct. For max points the model must land in the landing zone, usually 15 meters (about 50 feet) centered on the judges. It only need roll 10 meters (about 33 feet) and be below flying speed to end the landing. Don From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of billglaze Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 9:35 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs O.K., this has gone far afield since I originally started the discussion. But, I believe it has blown away some of the smoke I had seen obscuring the subject/problem. So: If the airplane lands in the Landing Zone, (LZ) I will watch it for only the first 50 ft.and judge on that only. (That was never my real question, but just for clarification.) In the event the Landing Zone has been declared to be the entire mowed portion or some portion thereof, should the plane land at the far end of the strip, it will still be judged on the first 50 ft. of roll out, and, if it becomes entangled in the long grass, making it swerve, for example, it will be a downgrade. If, for any reason, (including being in the rough; doesn't matter the reason) it should end up on it's back, it will be a zero. Nosing over, ground looping, hooking a wing, etc. will be cause for a downgrade. If it lands outside the LZ, but within the LA, it will be a downgrade, unless, within the first 50 ft. it should finish on it's back, (mandatory 0) or ground loop, or hook a wing, or nose over, but not turn over, it will be a downgrade based on the severity. At least, that's my impression Thanks for y'all's patience. Bill Glaze ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker To: Discussion List Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 7:59 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs test > From: jnhiller at earthlink.net > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 07:45:34 -0800 > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > Maybe I am too dense for this but I don't understand how you do that. I've > seen may just go to full throttle and grab a handful of up elevator and hope > for the best, often over the pits. > Jim. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Matthew > Frederick > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:08 PM > To: General pattern discussion > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > Oh, I meant the crosswind, but landings too > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J N Hiller" > To: "General pattern discussion" > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:21 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > Right throttle is used to control climb and decent. I have even set some > > up > > elevator mix on non-flap equipped models to reduce the speed on final. The > > yaw and wind drift are what need constant attention. > > Jim > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Matthew > > Frederick > > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 6:48 PM > > To: General pattern discussion > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > No argument here... I manage that with throttle only... > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "J N Hiller" > > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" > > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:14 PM > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > > >> I've seen a lot of what you are talking about. IMAC airplanes are much > >> like > >> pattern airplanes although less forgiving of pilot error. > >> Cubs are scale airplanes also and making an on-line takeoff and landing > >> including climb-out and final in a quartering or crosswind with a high > >> wing > >> scale airplane is probably the most difficult and attention demanding > >> thing > >> an RC pilot can do. Cross controlling on the ground is needed and the > >> pilot > >> needs to transition to an upwind yaw as the wheels leave the ground to > >> hold > >> the line during climb-out. Cross controlling needs to be reapplied just > >> before touchdown to prevent a downwind roll with rudder as airplane > >> steered > >> along the centerline. It really is fun requiring nearly maximum use of > >> the > >> old processor. Flying a pattern airplane in a crosswind is a piece of > >> cake > >> by comparison. > >> > >> Jim > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > >> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of John > >> Pavlick > >> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:21 PM > >> To: General pattern discussion > >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > >> > >> > >> > >> OK, maybe that should only apply to some of the warbird guys in my club. > >> I > >> forgot, IMAC birds are "scale" too. :) > >> > >> > >> > >> John Pavlick > >> > >> --- On Tue, 3/3/09, J N Hiller wrote: > >> > >> From: J N Hiller > >> Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > >> To: jpavlick at idseng.com, "General pattern discussion" > >> > >> Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 7:30 PM > >> > >> > >> Hay, now I'm offended. Not all scale pilots have wild takeoffs. > >> > >> Jim > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list > >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > _______________________________________________ > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billglaze at bellsouth.net Fri Mar 6 13:30:25 2009 From: billglaze at bellsouth.net (billglaze) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 22:30:25 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs References: <407F0195E19548EA84381E77840245F2@Mattmobile> <002501c99e71$20a7a300$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst><049201c99ea8$8a886a20$9f993e60$@ramsey@suddenlink.net> <049d01c99ea9$9c108600$d4319200$@ramsey@suddenlink.net> Message-ID: <005201c99eab$21cae0f0$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Roger that, Don! We're on the same page and stanza now! Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Ramsey To: 'General pattern discussion' Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 5:19 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs Sorry about that last incorrect statement. The landing zone is 30 meters centered on the judges. About 50 feet either side of center! Don From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Don Ramsey Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 4:12 PM To: 'General pattern discussion' Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs Bill, No, I'm sorry, that is not correct. For max points the model must land in the landing zone, usually 15 meters (about 50 feet) centered on the judges. It only need roll 10 meters (about 33 feet) and be below flying speed to end the landing. Don From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of billglaze Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 9:35 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs O.K., this has gone far afield since I originally started the discussion. But, I believe it has blown away some of the smoke I had seen obscuring the subject/problem. So: If the airplane lands in the Landing Zone, (LZ) I will watch it for only the first 50 ft.and judge on that only. (That was never my real question, but just for clarification.) In the event the Landing Zone has been declared to be the entire mowed portion or some portion thereof, should the plane land at the far end of the strip, it will still be judged on the first 50 ft. of roll out, and, if it becomes entangled in the long grass, making it swerve, for example, it will be a downgrade. If, for any reason, (including being in the rough; doesn't matter the reason) it should end up on it's back, it will be a zero. Nosing over, ground looping, hooking a wing, etc. will be cause for a downgrade. If it lands outside the LZ, but within the LA, it will be a downgrade, unless, within the first 50 ft. it should finish on it's back, (mandatory 0) or ground loop, or hook a wing, or nose over, but not turn over, it will be a downgrade based on the severity. At least, that's my impression Thanks for y'all's patience. Bill Glaze ----- Original Message ----- From: John Konneker To: Discussion List Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 7:59 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs test > From: jnhiller at earthlink.net > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 07:45:34 -0800 > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > Maybe I am too dense for this but I don't understand how you do that. I've > seen may just go to full throttle and grab a handful of up elevator and hope > for the best, often over the pits. > Jim. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Matthew > Frederick > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:08 PM > To: General pattern discussion > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > Oh, I meant the crosswind, but landings too > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J N Hiller" > To: "General pattern discussion" > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:21 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > Right throttle is used to control climb and decent. I have even set some > > up > > elevator mix on non-flap equipped models to reduce the speed on final. The > > yaw and wind drift are what need constant attention. > > Jim > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Matthew > > Frederick > > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 6:48 PM > > To: General pattern discussion > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > No argument here... I manage that with throttle only... > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "J N Hiller" > > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" > > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:14 PM > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > > > > > >> I've seen a lot of what you are talking about. IMAC airplanes are much > >> like > >> pattern airplanes although less forgiving of pilot error. > >> Cubs are scale airplanes also and making an on-line takeoff and landing > >> including climb-out and final in a quartering or crosswind with a high > >> wing > >> scale airplane is probably the most difficult and attention demanding > >> thing > >> an RC pilot can do. Cross controlling on the ground is needed and the > >> pilot > >> needs to transition to an upwind yaw as the wheels leave the ground to > >> hold > >> the line during climb-out. Cross controlling needs to be reapplied just > >> before touchdown to prevent a downwind roll with rudder as airplane > >> steered > >> along the centerline. It really is fun requiring nearly maximum use of > >> the > >> old processor. Flying a pattern airplane in a crosswind is a piece of > >> cake > >> by comparison. > >> > >> Jim > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > >> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of John > >> Pavlick > >> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:21 PM > >> To: General pattern discussion > >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > >> > >> > >> > >> OK, maybe that should only apply to some of the warbird guys in my club. > >> I > >> forgot, IMAC birds are "scale" too. :) > >> > >> > >> > >> John Pavlick > >> > >> --- On Tue, 3/3/09, J N Hiller wrote: > >> > >> From: J N Hiller > >> Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs > >> To: jpavlick at idseng.com, "General pattern discussion" > >> > >> Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 7:30 PM > >> > >> > >> Hay, now I'm offended. Not all scale pilots have wild takeoffs. > >> > >> Jim > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list > >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > _______________________________________________ > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ksutherland at hughes.net Sun Mar 8 14:58:27 2009 From: ksutherland at hughes.net (ksutherland) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 22:58:27 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Mintor 170 Message-ID: <52464678.64214.1236553102756.JavaMail.mail@webmail03> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anthonyr105 at hotmail.com Mon Mar 9 04:20:00 2009 From: anthonyr105 at hotmail.com (Anthony Romano) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 12:20:00 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Nat's Frequency assingments Message-ID: Does anyone know how frequency assingments are going to be handled at the Nats this year? With everyone on 2.4 how do you make sure you fly with the people you are travelling with? Anthony _________________________________________________________________ Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail?. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/LearnMore/personalize.aspx?ocid=TXT_MSGTX_WL_HM_express_032009#colortheme -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patternrules at yahoo.com Mon Mar 9 05:24:34 2009 From: patternrules at yahoo.com (Steven Maxwell) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 13:24:34 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Chargers, Balancers, and power supply FOR SALE Message-ID: <896018.66948.qm@web111310.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I don't see me flying pattern for a couple of years at least and this stuff just sat last year so I selling what I'm not using. 2- 1010c Thunderpower charger and 210 balancer $185 each shipped US 1- Iota 55 amp power supply $100 shipped US Have to sell chargers before I'll sell power supply From patternrules at yahoo.com Mon Mar 9 07:56:25 2009 From: patternrules at yahoo.com (patternrules at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 15:56:25 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Smaragd For Sale Message-ID: <157810.94259.qm@web111302.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> ?It was glow for 4 years and was electric the last 2 even though I never flew it last year, not perfect but still good flying. Pics here. http://sites.google.com/site/handlauchglider/Home Contact patternrules at yahoo.comthanks?Steve Maxwell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anthonyr105 at hotmail.com Mon Mar 9 09:25:07 2009 From: anthonyr105 at hotmail.com (Anthony Romano) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 17:25:07 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Practice plane Message-ID: Managed to stall my Vanquish over the weekend on the bottom of the hour glass and make a mess of it. Extreme Flight is out of stock and didn't say if they would be back. Does anyone have any other suggestions for similiar size and capability ships? The Fliton Element 30 looks good. However, it is a little larger and calls out a bigger motor and is also out of stock. Anyone familiar with the Hyperion Helios 25e? Anthony _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Life without walls. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_allup_1a_explore_032009 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patternrules at yahoo.com Mon Mar 9 11:15:06 2009 From: patternrules at yahoo.com (Steven Maxwell) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 19:15:06 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Practice plane Message-ID: <651972.29764.qm@web111315.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> ?I have a Sting Ray that is very good flier from aeroworks very true but needs a little speed to do really well. haven't flown mine in a while.?Steve Maxwell? --- On Mon, 3/9/09, Anthony Romano wrote: From: Anthony Romano Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Practice plane To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Monday, March 9, 2009, 1:22 PM Managed to stall my Vanquish over the weekend on the bottom of the hour glass and make a mess of it. Extreme Flight is out of stock and didn't say if they would be back. Does anyone have any other suggestions for similiar size and capability ships? The Fliton Element 30 looks good. However, it is a little larger and calls out a bigger motor and is also out of stock. Anyone familiar with the Hyperion Helios 25e? ? Anthony Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. Check it out. -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cchariandy at yahoo.ca Mon Mar 9 12:11:26 2009 From: cchariandy at yahoo.ca (colin chariandy) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 20:11:26 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Practice plane In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <12012.74846.qm@web31302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I just got the first 4 flights on the Element. ? Awesome plane. ? I found mine at Atlanta hobbies even though it was'nt on the website. It's a much better looking plane than the others, is a bit larger and doesnt seen to mind a little wind. I used the A30-10XL and 3S 2600 25C batteries. ? Colin. --- On Mon, 3/9/09, Anthony Romano wrote: From: Anthony Romano Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Practice plane To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Received: Monday, March 9, 2009, 1:22 PM #yiv464563940 .hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #yiv464563940 { font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;} Managed to stall my Vanquish over the weekend on the bottom of the hour glass and make a mess of it. Extreme Flight is out of stock and didn't say if they would be back. Does anyone have any other suggestions for similiar size and capability ships? The Fliton Element 30 looks good. However, it is a little larger and calls out a bigger motor and is also out of stock. Anyone familiar with the Hyperion Helios 25e? ? Anthony Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. Check it out. _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion __________________________________________________________________ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lightfoot at sc.rr.com Mon Mar 9 13:32:39 2009 From: lightfoot at sc.rr.com (Jay Marshall) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 21:32:39 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Practice plane In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8594429896F94776991DAD2FD5DA3652@jaysdesktop> Looks like Atlanta Hobbies SebArt Katana S30 is almost the same as the Vanquish. Same wingspan, motor, etc... Jay Marshall -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Anthony Romano Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 1:22 PM To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Practice plane Managed to stall my Vanquish over the weekend on the bottom of the hour glass and make a mess of it. Extreme Flight is out of stock and didn't say if they would be back. Does anyone have any other suggestions for similiar size and capability ships? The Fliton Element 30 looks good. However, it is a little larger and calls out a bigger motor and is also out of stock. Anyone familiar with the Hyperion Helios 25e? Anthony _____ Windows LiveT: Keep your life in sync. Check it out. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at toprudder.com Mon Mar 9 16:11:53 2009 From: bob at toprudder.com (Bob Richards) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 00:11:53 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Practice plane In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <202215.59995.qm@web1110.biz.mail.sk1.yahoo.com> Take a serious look at the 3DHobbyshop Aspera. I have both the Aspera (V1 prototype) and the Vanquish. They both use the same equipment (I use 4S and the Torque 820 motor). I think the Vanquish snaps a little better, but the Aspera is better at knife edge, point rolls, etc. I also think it is a little better in the wind. http://www.3dhobbyshop.com/detail.aspx?ID=2421 Bob R. --- On Mon, 3/9/09, Anthony Romano wrote: > Does anyone have any other suggestions for similiar size and > capability ships? > From patternrules at yahoo.com Tue Mar 10 04:39:57 2009 From: patternrules at yahoo.com (Steven Maxwell) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 12:39:57 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Futaba 9450 servos FOR SALE Message-ID: <281695.21694.qm@web111312.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> ?Got these back from Tony 3 or 4 years ago had pots replaced and they have just set so make me a fair offer. 88.8/111.0 oz-in (6.4/8.0 kg-cm)0.10/0.08 sec @ 60 degcoreless, metal gears, watertight -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From getterflash at yahoo.com Tue Mar 10 06:06:43 2009 From: getterflash at yahoo.com (Bob Kane) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 14:06:43 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] FS: YS 61R Long Stroke Message-ID: <220154.23765.qm@web36704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have a NIB YS61R Long Stroke, #YS0090 for sale. It is NIB and has 2 extra gasket sets (YS1190), o-ring kit (YS1175) and even a new conrod (YS1035). I bought the extra parts for my YS61AR which was sold with a plane a couple of years ago. Let me know, thanks. Bob Kane getterflash at yahoo.com From wilsorc at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 08:23:39 2009 From: wilsorc at gmail.com (Bob Wilson) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 16:23:39 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Icepoint w/ 160 Message-ID: <888fdd980903100923u61dc768bjf7001d5befee4181@mail.gmail.com> I'm putting a O.S. 160 FX w tuned pipe on my "Icepoint". Thoughts are to hard mount it to the tray without any vibration mount. Should I be re-thinking this and if so, what's available for tray type vibration dampners? Bob Wilson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CHV69 at aol.com Tue Mar 10 08:29:21 2009 From: CHV69 at aol.com (CHV69 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 16:29:21 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Icepoint w/ 160 Message-ID: In a message dated 3/10/2009 12:24:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, wilsorc at gmail.com writes: I'm putting a O.S. 160 FX w tuned pipe on my "Icepoint". Thoughts are to hard mount it to the tray without any vibration mount. Should I be re-thinking this and if so, what's available for tray type vibration dampners? I would just hard mount it straight to the crutch. You could try the Brown Vibra-Damp mount. The nose of the Icepoint is very skinny and does not allow much room for movement with a soft soft mount. Carl **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1219671244x1201345076/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID %3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ed_alt at hotmail.com Tue Mar 10 14:41:46 2009 From: ed_alt at hotmail.com (Ed Alt) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 22:41:46 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Icepoint w/ 160 References: <888fdd980903100923u61dc768bjf7001d5befee4181@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The easiest thing is just go straight to the HW beam mounts. However, I had an Icepoint and hogged out the beams and added a firewall for a Hyde mount. Worked very nicely, but it was a lot of work. I had a different RCU handle back then, but here's the place in an Icepoint build thread where I started to post some info & pics of the mods to the nose: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_2202521/mpage_3/key_icepoint/tm.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Wilson To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 11:23 AM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Icepoint w/ 160 I'm putting a O.S. 160 FX w tuned pipe on my "Icepoint". Thoughts are to hard mount it to the tray without any vibration mount. Should I be re-thinking this and if so, what's available for tray type vibration dampners? Bob Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wilsorc at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 09:01:40 2009 From: wilsorc at gmail.com (Bob Wilson) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 17:01:40 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Tuned Pipe for OS 160FX Message-ID: <888fdd980903111001n7b7b0295ua615a853ca1c5da7@mail.gmail.com> I'm putting the OS 160 FX on my "Icepoint" with a wrap around header. Any recommendations out there for the tuned pipe? Karl Mueller recommended a Macs Pro #1092 which looks good but I wanted to check if anyone else has some ideas. Also, any special mounting tips? Thanks, Bob Wilson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jshulman at cfl.rr.com Wed Mar 11 09:15:30 2009 From: jshulman at cfl.rr.com (J Shu) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 17:15:30 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size Message-ID: I'm too lazy to go look right now, so what size tank do I need and what size prop do you like best for a nice pattern flight? Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com From aabdu at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 11 09:18:44 2009 From: aabdu at sbcglobal.net (Anthony Abdullah) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 17:18:44 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Wiring diagram In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <787388.18463.qm@web82108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Does anyone have a drawing or a link to a drawing of how 2 5S packsshould be wired to make a 10S pack for F3A use?ThanksAnthony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aeroslave at tx.rr.com Wed Mar 11 09:41:47 2009 From: aeroslave at tx.rr.com (aeroslave at tx.rr.com) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 17:41:47 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Tuned Pipe for OS 160 Message-ID: <20090311174144.UABK6.198525.root@cdptpa-web22-z02> Bob AeroSlave has two mufflers that work well with the OS 160. The regular muffler is 3 ounces and $170. The Ultralite is 2.3 ounces and $200. Tuning and performance data is on the website www.aeroslave.com. Thanks Gray Fowler I'm putting the OS 160 FX on my "Icepoint" with a wrap around header. Any recommendations out there for the tuned pipe? Karl Mueller recommended a Macs Pro #1092 which looks good but I wanted to check if anyone else has some ideas. Also, any special mounting tips? Thanks, Bob Wilson_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- AeroSlave 4408 Elmhurst Dr Plano, TX 75093 www.aeroslave.com PayPal: aeroslave at tx.rr.com From aeroslave at tx.rr.com Wed Mar 11 09:41:56 2009 From: aeroslave at tx.rr.com (aeroslave at tx.rr.com) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 17:41:56 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Tuned Pipe for OS 160 Message-ID: <20090311174153.SXPVK.198529.root@cdptpa-web22-z02> Bob AeroSlave has two mufflers that work well with the OS 160. The regular muffler is 3 ounces and $170. The Ultralite is 2.3 ounces and $200. Tuning and performance data is on the website www.aeroslave.com. Thanks Gray Fowler I'm putting the OS 160 FX on my "Icepoint" with a wrap around header. Any recommendations out there for the tuned pipe? Karl Mueller recommended a Macs Pro #1092 which looks good but I wanted to check if anyone else has some ideas. Also, any special mounting tips? Thanks, Bob Wilson_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- AeroSlave 4408 Elmhurst Dr Plano, TX 75093 www.aeroslave.com PayPal: aeroslave at tx.rr.com From jnhiller at earthlink.net Wed Mar 11 09:54:46 2009 From: jnhiller at earthlink.net (J N Hiller) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 17:54:46 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jason I'm running a 16-10 with either 14 or 16 oz tank. 14 oz got me through advanced twice in practice. I find I'm using just over 1 oz / minute running the 16-10, probably 1 1/2 oz on a windy day. I didn't like the higher RPM's using an 8-pitch prop. Jim Hiller -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of J Shu Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 10:15 AM To: NSRCA Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size I'm too lazy to go look right now, so what size tank do I need and what size prop do you like best for a nice pattern flight? Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From jpavlick at idseng.com Wed Mar 11 09:55:36 2009 From: jpavlick at idseng.com (John Pavlick) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 17:55:36 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <545418.81254.qm@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> An APC 16x10 works with an Aeroslave pipe. Without a pipe a 14x10 or even a 15x10 might be good.?A 16 oz. tank is about the smallest you'd want to have.?A 20 0z.?would be overkill but safe - just don't fill it all the way. ? John Pavlick --- On Wed, 3/11/09, J Shu wrote: From: J Shu Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size To: "NSRCA" Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 5:15 PM I'm too lazy to go look right now, so what size tank do I need and what size prop do you like best for a nice pattern flight? Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpavlick at idseng.com Wed Mar 11 10:01:14 2009 From: jpavlick at idseng.com (John Pavlick) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 18:01:14 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Wiring diagram In-Reply-To: <787388.18463.qm@web82108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <142356.36652.qm@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The positive lead of one pack goes to the positive lead of your speed controller. The negative lead of the OTHER pack goes to the negative lead of your speed controller. The two remaining wires connect to each other (one is positive and one is negative). You should make up a short harness to do this for you if you can?tolerate the added weight. ? John Pavlick --- On Wed, 3/11/09, Anthony Abdullah wrote: From: Anthony Abdullah Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Wiring diagram To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 5:18 PM Does anyone have a drawing or a link to a drawing of how 2 5S packsshould be wired to make a 10S pack for F3A use?ThanksAnthony_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CHV69 at aol.com Wed Mar 11 10:07:23 2009 From: CHV69 at aol.com (CHV69 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 18:07:23 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size Message-ID: In a message dated 3/11/2009 1:16:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jshulman at cfl.rr.com writes: I'm too lazy to go look right now, so what size tank do I need and what size prop do you like best for a nice pattern flight? 16 oz 17 x 8N APC if using a pipe 15 x 8 without **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1219671244x1201345076/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID %3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jshulman at cfl.rr.com Wed Mar 11 10:17:49 2009 From: jshulman at cfl.rr.com (J Shu) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 18:17:49 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7618080954214AF69758F73C52C5CBF9@UncleJasPC> It'll be run on a muffler in a 6lb pattern plane. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: CHV69 at aol.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size In a message dated 3/11/2009 1:16:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jshulman at cfl.rr.com writes: I'm too lazy to go look right now, so what size tank do I need and what size prop do you like best for a nice pattern flight? 16 oz 17 x 8N APC if using a pipe 15 x 8 without ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cjm767driver at hotmail.com Wed Mar 11 10:20:05 2009 From: cjm767driver at hotmail.com (Chris Moon) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 18:20:05 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Wiring diagram In-Reply-To: <787388.18463.qm@web82108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <787388.18463.qm@web82108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpavlick at idseng.com Wed Mar 11 10:55:21 2009 From: jpavlick at idseng.com (John Pavlick) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 18:55:21 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size In-Reply-To: <7618080954214AF69758F73C52C5CBF9@UncleJasPC> Message-ID: <911672.68787.qm@web80504.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Jeez, 6 lbs. I don't know if you'll have enough power with theOS120. LOL ? In that case you should be OK with a 16 oz. tank. :) ? John Pavlick --- On Wed, 3/11/09, J Shu wrote: From: J Shu Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 6:17 PM It'll be run on a muffler in a 6lb pattern plane. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: CHV69 at aol.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size In a message dated 3/11/2009 1:16:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jshulman at cfl.rr.com writes: I'm too lazy to go look right now, so what size tank do I need and what size prop do you like best for a nice pattern flight? 16 oz 17 x 8N APC if using a pipe 15 x 8 without A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pamrich47 at hotmail.com Wed Mar 11 11:59:13 2009 From: pamrich47 at hotmail.com (Richard Strickland) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 19:59:13 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Wiring diagram In-Reply-To: References: <787388.18463.qm@web82108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: OK, then what are you doing with the power leads so the Cellpro 10s will read resistance(which it will not do on nodes only)--making a harness to pick up the red from one and the black from the other into the corresponding colors/poles on A and B? (one each) RS Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 14:19:59 -0400 From: cjm767driver at hotmail.com To: aabdu at sbcglobal.net; nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wiring diagram http://www.electric-f3a.com/Pack%20wiring.htm Chris Anthony Abdullah wrote: Does anyone have a drawing or a link to a drawing of how 2 5S packsshould be wired to make a 10S pack for F3A use?ThanksAnthony _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Life without walls. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_allup_1a_explore_032009 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trexlesh at msn.com Wed Mar 11 12:03:52 2009 From: trexlesh at msn.com (Rex) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 20:03:52 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Wiring diagram In-Reply-To: References: <787388.18463.qm@web82108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That's very nice, Chris... R Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 14:19:59 -0400 From: cjm767driver at hotmail.com To: aabdu at sbcglobal.net; nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wiring diagram http://www.electric-f3a.com/Pack%20wiring.htm Chris Anthony Abdullah wrote: Does anyone have a drawing or a link to a drawing of how 2 5S packsshould be wired to make a 10S pack for F3A use?ThanksAnthony _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at toprudder.com Wed Mar 11 12:09:03 2009 From: bob at toprudder.com (Bob Richards) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 20:09:03 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size Message-ID: <296446.22513.qm@web1108.biz.mail.sk1.yahoo.com> 6 pounds. Hmmmm, don't you think you will need a bigger motor? ;-> Bob R. --- On Wed, 3/11/09, J Shu wrote: > > It'll be run on a > muffler in a 6lb pattern > plane. > > From jshulman at cfl.rr.com Wed Mar 11 12:19:37 2009 From: jshulman at cfl.rr.com (J Shu) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 20:19:37 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size In-Reply-To: <296446.22513.qm@web1108.biz.mail.sk1.yahoo.com> References: <296446.22513.qm@web1108.biz.mail.sk1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6B2D59A7C8F2416C81302A07F1066922@UncleJasPC> Sorry, airframe is 4 3/4, motor is 21oz, 8oz in servos, another 15oz for spinner and prop... 8 more for the rest. Looks more like 8lbs... I need to recheck my math next time...lol. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Richards" To: "General pattern discussion" Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 4:09 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size > > 6 pounds. Hmmmm, don't you think you will need a bigger motor? ;-> > > Bob R. > > > --- On Wed, 3/11/09, J Shu wrote: > >> >> It'll be run on a >> muffler in a 6lb pattern >> plane. >> >> > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > From CHV69 at aol.com Wed Mar 11 12:30:27 2009 From: CHV69 at aol.com (CHV69 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 20:30:27 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size Message-ID: In a message dated 3/11/2009 4:20:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jshulman at cfl.rr.com writes: Sorry, airframe is 4 3/4, motor is 21oz, 8oz in servos, another 15oz for spinner and prop... 8 more for the rest. Looks more like 8lbs... I need to recheck my math next time...lol. What are you putting together? Carl **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1219671244x1201345076/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID %3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jshulman at cfl.rr.com Wed Mar 11 12:37:50 2009 From: jshulman at cfl.rr.com (J Shu) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 20:37:50 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A new plane Hope to have it at Ocala. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: CHV69 at aol.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size In a message dated 3/11/2009 4:20:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jshulman at cfl.rr.com writes: Sorry, airframe is 4 3/4, motor is 21oz, 8oz in servos, another 15oz for spinner and prop... 8 more for the rest. Looks more like 8lbs... I need to recheck my math next time...lol. What are you putting together? Carl ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jshulman at cfl.rr.com Wed Mar 11 12:59:49 2009 From: jshulman at cfl.rr.com (J Shu) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 20:59:49 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48D3132A36634778BBC1E4BD77C6E350@UncleJasPC> The other color choice will be white instead of yellow and purple instead of black. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: CHV69 at aol.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size In a message dated 3/11/2009 4:20:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jshulman at cfl.rr.com writes: Sorry, airframe is 4 3/4, motor is 21oz, 8oz in servos, another 15oz for spinner and prop... 8 more for the rest. Looks more like 8lbs... I need to recheck my math next time...lol. What are you putting together? Carl ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_4475.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 56755 bytes Desc: not available URL: From CHV69 at aol.com Wed Mar 11 13:03:46 2009 From: CHV69 at aol.com (CHV69 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 21:03:46 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size Message-ID: In a message dated 3/11/2009 4:39:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jshulman at cfl.rr.com writes: A new plane Hope to have it at Ocala. Oh I see. Top secret weapon!! Good luck with it then. Carl **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1219671244x1201345076/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID %3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jshulman at cfl.rr.com Wed Mar 11 13:15:37 2009 From: jshulman at cfl.rr.com (J Shu) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 21:15:37 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3DFB5A7B110B4161A38C67881B0C112D@UncleJasPC> What's the picture size limit for the list? Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: CHV69 at aol.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 5:03 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size In a message dated 3/11/2009 4:39:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jshulman at cfl.rr.com writes: A new plane Hope to have it at Ocala. Oh I see. Top secret weapon!! Good luck with it then. Carl ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ed_alt at hotmail.com Wed Mar 11 13:28:15 2009 From: ed_alt at hotmail.com (Ed Alt) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 21:28:15 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size In-Reply-To: <545418.81254.qm@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <545418.81254.qm@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 14x10 is definitely not enough prop. A 15x10 to 15x12 is OK with no pipe. 16x10 with a pipe. I haven't tried anything else. Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 10:55:32 -0700 From: jpavlick at idseng.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size An APC 16x10 works with an Aeroslave pipe. Without a pipe a 14x10 or even a 15x10 might be good. A 16 oz. tank is about the smallest you'd want to have. A 20 0z. would be overkill but safe - just don't fill it all the way. John Pavlick --- On Wed, 3/11/09, J Shu wrote: From: J Shu Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size To: "NSRCA" Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 5:15 PM I'm too lazy to go look right now, so what size tank do I need and what size prop do you like best for a nice pattern flight? Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? Groups: Create an online spot for your favorite groups to meet. http://windowslive.com/online/groups?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_groups_032009 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From simestd at netexpress.com Wed Mar 11 13:33:23 2009 From: simestd at netexpress.com (Tom Simes) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 21:33:23 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size In-Reply-To: <3DFB5A7B110B4161A38C67881B0C112D@UncleJasPC> References: <3DFB5A7B110B4161A38C67881B0C112D@UncleJasPC> Message-ID: <20090311133319.337f4767.simestd@netexpress.com> On Wed, 11 Mar 2009 17:15:30 -0400 "J Shu" wrote: > What's the picture size limit for the list? > 100 KB I can't wait to see the picture of the white and purple 16 oz. tank strapped to a 1.20 with stabilizing fins :) Tom ====================================================================== "Z-80 system stack overflow. Shut 'er down Scotty, the system's sucking mud" - Error message on TRS 80 Model-16B Tom Simes simestd at netexpress.com ====================================================================== From vanputte at cox.net Wed Mar 11 13:45:18 2009 From: vanputte at cox.net (Ron Van Putte) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 21:45:18 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size In-Reply-To: <48D3132A36634778BBC1E4BD77C6E350@UncleJasPC> References: <48D3132A36634778BBC1E4BD77C6E350@UncleJasPC> Message-ID: I like the yellow instead of white, but prefer purple to black. Ron On Mar 11, 2009, at 3:59 PM, J Shu wrote: > The other color choice will be white instead of yellow and purple > instead of black. > > Regards, > Jason > www.shulmanaviation.com > www.composite-arf.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: CHV69 at aol.com > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 4:29 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size > > In a message dated 3/11/2009 4:20:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > jshulman at cfl.rr.com writes: > Sorry, airframe is 4 3/4, motor is 21oz, 8oz in servos, another > 15oz for spinner and prop... 8 more for the rest. Looks more like > 8lbs... I need to recheck my math next time...lol. > What are you putting together? > > Carl > > A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From cjm767driver at hotmail.com Wed Mar 11 13:50:03 2009 From: cjm767driver at hotmail.com (Chris Moon) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 21:50:03 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Wiring diagram In-Reply-To: References: <787388.18463.qm@web82108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trexlesh at msn.com Wed Mar 11 14:16:11 2009 From: trexlesh at msn.com (Rex) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 22:16:11 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size In-Reply-To: References: <48D3132A36634778BBC1E4BD77C6E350@UncleJasPC> Message-ID: Yellow and purple... That's called "pimping it out". I like it! > From: vanputte at cox.net > Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 16:45:12 -0500 > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size > > I like the yellow instead of white, but prefer purple to black. > > Ron > > On Mar 11, 2009, at 3:59 PM, J Shu wrote: > > > The other color choice will be white instead of yellow and purple > > instead of black. > > > > Regards, > > Jason > > www.shulmanaviation.com > > www.composite-arf.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: CHV69 at aol.com > > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 4:29 PM > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size > > > > In a message dated 3/11/2009 4:20:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > > jshulman at cfl.rr.com writes: > > Sorry, airframe is 4 3/4, motor is 21oz, 8oz in servos, another > > 15oz for spinner and prop... 8 more for the rest. Looks more like > > 8lbs... I need to recheck my math next time...lol. > > What are you putting together? > > > > Carl > > > > A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cjm767driver at hotmail.com Wed Mar 11 14:29:12 2009 From: cjm767driver at hotmail.com (Chris Moon) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 22:29:12 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Wiring diagram In-Reply-To: References: <787388.18463.qm@web82108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trexlesh at msn.com Wed Mar 11 14:44:44 2009 From: trexlesh at msn.com (Rex) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 22:44:44 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Wiring diagram In-Reply-To: References: <787388.18463.qm@web82108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yeppers... that's a bit better... easier to understand. R Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 18:29:03 -0400 From: cjm767driver at hotmail.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wiring diagram Thanks Rex. I forgot that I wanted to update that page - so anyone who has not seen that page in the last 5 minutes, check it again. I added another example and made the wording a little clearer. http://www.electric-f3a.com/Pack%20wiring.htm Chris Rex wrote: That's very nice, Chris... R Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 14:19:59 -0400 From: cjm767driver at hotmail.com To: aabdu at sbcglobal.net; nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wiring diagram http://www.electric-f3a.com/Pack%20wiring.htm Chris Anthony Abdullah wrote: Does anyone have a drawing or a link to a drawing of how 2 5S packsshould be wired to make a 10S pack for F3A use?ThanksAnthony _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date: 03/11/09 08:28:00 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From precisionaero at hotmail.com Wed Mar 11 14:58:05 2009 From: precisionaero at hotmail.com (Michael Cohen) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 22:58:05 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Two questions for the list In-Reply-To: References: <787388.18463.qm@web82108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: First, will there be a judging seminar at this year's Toledo Expo? Second, what can be used to safely lube the antenna on those ancient, 72 Mhz transmitters? Mine is a little "stiff" and I do not want to damage the mounting inside the transmitter. Mike "not yet on 2.4" Cohen D4 _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? Hotmail??more than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_howitworks_022009 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vanputte at cox.net Wed Mar 11 14:59:40 2009 From: vanputte at cox.net (Ron Van Putte) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 22:59:40 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size In-Reply-To: References: <48D3132A36634778BBC1E4BD77C6E350@UncleJasPC> Message-ID: <9ABEA8B3-A26B-4172-99D7-EFC1E2F583A7@cox.net> Nah! Pimping it out would have Circus Pink in lieu of black. Ron On Mar 11, 2009, at 5:16 PM, Rex wrote: > Yellow and purple... That's called "pimping it out". I like it! > > > From: vanputte at cox.net > > Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 16:45:12 -0500 > > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size > > > > I like the yellow instead of white, but prefer purple to black. > > > > Ron > > > > On Mar 11, 2009, at 3:59 PM, J Shu wrote: > > > > > The other color choice will be white instead of yellow and purple > > > instead of black. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Jason > > > www.shulmanaviation.com > > > www.composite-arf.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: CHV69 at aol.com > > > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 4:29 PM > > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size > > > > > > In a message dated 3/11/2009 4:20:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > > > jshulman at cfl.rr.com writes: > > > Sorry, airframe is 4 3/4, motor is 21oz, 8oz in servos, another > > > 15oz for spinner and prop... 8 more for the rest. Looks more like > > > 8lbs... I need to recheck my math next time...lol. > > > What are you putting together? > > > > > > Carl > > > > > > A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy > steps! > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca- > discussion > > > _______________________________________________ > > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > _______________________________________________ > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From trexlesh at msn.com Wed Mar 11 15:28:48 2009 From: trexlesh at msn.com (Rex) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 23:28:48 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size In-Reply-To: <9ABEA8B3-A26B-4172-99D7-EFC1E2F583A7@cox.net> References: <48D3132A36634778BBC1E4BD77C6E350@UncleJasPC> <9ABEA8B3-A26B-4172-99D7-EFC1E2F583A7@cox.net> Message-ID: Oh, I didn't want to even go THERE!!!!... Rex > From: vanputte at cox.net > Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 17:59:35 -0500 > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size > > Nah! Pimping it out would have Circus Pink in lieu of black. > > Ron > > On Mar 11, 2009, at 5:16 PM, Rex wrote: > > > Yellow and purple... That's called "pimping it out". I like it! > > > > > From: vanputte at cox.net > > > Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 16:45:12 -0500 > > > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size > > > > > > I like the yellow instead of white, but prefer purple to black. > > > > > > Ron > > > > > > On Mar 11, 2009, at 3:59 PM, J Shu wrote: > > > > > > > The other color choice will be white instead of yellow and purple > > > > instead of black. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Jason > > > > www.shulmanaviation.com > > > > www.composite-arf.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: CHV69 at aol.com > > > > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 4:29 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size > > > > > > > > In a message dated 3/11/2009 4:20:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > > > > jshulman at cfl.rr.com writes: > > > > Sorry, airframe is 4 3/4, motor is 21oz, 8oz in servos, another > > > > 15oz for spinner and prop... 8 more for the rest. Looks more like > > > > 8lbs... I need to recheck my math next time...lol. > > > > What are you putting together? > > > > > > > > Carl > > > > > > > > A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy > > steps! > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > > > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca- > > discussion > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > > > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tkeithblack at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 15:40:24 2009 From: tkeithblack at gmail.com (Keith Black) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 23:40:24 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Two questions for the list In-Reply-To: References: <787388.18463.qm@web82108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2F1B34A2-4D22-44FF-8EFF-00209608F11E@gmail.com> Thouroughly clean the antenna with denatured alcohol (remove from TX if you can). You'd be supprised how much sticky grime can build up over the years. You'll have extend and retract many times as cleaning. Thanks, Keith On Mar 11, 2009, at 6:58 PM, Michael Cohen wrote: > First, will there be a judging seminar at this year's Toledo Expo? > > Second, what can be used to safely lube the antenna on those > ancient, 72 Mhz transmitters? Mine is a little "stiff" and I do not > want to damage the mounting inside the transmitter. > > Mike "not yet on 2.4" Cohen > D4 > > > Windows Live? Hotmail??more than just e-mail. See how it works. > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnhiller at earthlink.net Wed Mar 11 16:35:43 2009 From: jnhiller at earthlink.net (J N Hiller) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 00:35:43 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size In-Reply-To: <6B2D59A7C8F2416C81302A07F1066922@UncleJasPC> Message-ID: Jason, A 16-10 APC weighs 3.7 oz. I started running a Master Airscrew 'Scimitar' series last summer which weighs 1.75 oz. I know it is heresy to even speak of a wood prop but it actually runs pretty well having a slightly lower top RPM but the mid range pulls well. They have nearly identical blade profiles but the wood is a little thicker. I thought the reduced gyroscopic effect would be beneficial on smaller lighter airplanes (mine is 8.5 lb). When selecting props I always thought the best one for a particular airplane / weight / motor combination was the one that offered the highest vertical up speed. Try several, fly the one you like. Jim Hiller -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of J Shu Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 1:19 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size Sorry, airframe is 4 3/4, motor is 21oz, 8oz in servos, another 15oz for spinner and prop... 8 more for the rest. Looks more like 8lbs... I need to recheck my math next time...lol. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Richards" To: "General pattern discussion" Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 4:09 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size > > 6 pounds. Hmmmm, don't you think you will need a bigger motor? ;-> > > Bob R. > > > --- On Wed, 3/11/09, J Shu wrote: > >> >> It'll be run on a >> muffler in a 6lb pattern >> plane. >> >> > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From aabdu at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 11 16:53:13 2009 From: aabdu at sbcglobal.net (Anthony Abdullah) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 00:53:13 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Wiring diagram In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <306463.14977.qm@web82106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I bought two 5S packs that already have Deans connectors on them, is it OK to just plug them into this then plug this into the ESC? http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=2156&Product_Name=HXT_T-Connector_Series_Pack_lead --- On Wed, 3/11/09, Chris Moon wrote: > From: Chris Moon > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wiring diagram > To: "General pattern discussion" > Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 6:29 PM >
"-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> > > > > > > > Thanks Rex.? I forgot that I wanted to update that > page - so anyone who > has not seen that page in the last 5 minutes, check it > again.? I added > another example and made the wording a little > clearer.
>
> class="moz-txt-link-freetext" > target="_blank" > href="http://www.electric-f3a.com/Pack%20wiring.htm">http://www.electric-f3a.com/Pack%20wiring.htm
>
> Chris
>
> Rex wrote: >
type="cite"> > That's very nice, > Chris...?
> ?
> R
> ?
>
> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 14:19:59 -0400
> From: class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" > target="_blank" > href="mailto:cjm767driver at hotmail.com">cjm767driver at hotmail.com
> To: class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" > target="_blank" > href="mailto:aabdu at sbcglobal.net">aabdu at sbcglobal.net; > class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" > target="_blank" > href="mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wiring diagram
>
> class="EC_moz-txt-link-freetext" > target="_blank" > href="http://www.electric-f3a.com/Pack%20wiring.htm">http://www.electric-f3a.com/Pack%20wiring.htm
>
> Chris
>
> Anthony Abdullah wrote: >
> cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> > > > > > >
valign="top"> >
style="padding-left:5px;margin-left:5px;"> > 
Does anyone have a drawing or a link
> to a drawing of how 2 5S packs
> 
should be wired to make a 10S pack
> for F3A use?
> 
Thanks
> 
Anthony
>
>
> 
 width="90%">
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>  class="EC_moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
>  target="_blank"
> href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>  class="EC_moz-txt-link-freetext"
>  target="_blank"
> href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
> 
> 

> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>  class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
> target="_blank"
> href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>  class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
> target="_blank"
> href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> 
> 

> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG -  class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
> target="_blank"
> href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com
> 
> Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release
> Date: 03/11/09 08:28:00
> 
>
>
> > > > >
_______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From KTHOMPSON56 at satx.rr.com Wed Mar 11 17:01:06 2009 From: KTHOMPSON56 at satx.rr.com (Ken Thompson) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 01:01:06 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Wiring diagram References: <306463.14977.qm@web82106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000401c9a2ae$c0fdfd90$0200a8c0@kencopepere> Yep. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Abdullah" To: "General pattern discussion" Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 7:53 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wiring diagram I bought two 5S packs that already have Deans connectors on them, is it OK to just plug them into this then plug this into the ESC? http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=2156&Product_Name=HXT_T-Connector_Series_Pack_lead --- On Wed, 3/11/09, Chris Moon wrote: > From: Chris Moon > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wiring diagram > To: "General pattern discussion" > Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 6:29 PM >
"-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> > > > > > > > Thanks Rex. I forgot that I wanted to update that > page - so anyone who > has not seen that page in the last 5 minutes, check it > again. I added > another example and made the wording a little > clearer.
>
> class="moz-txt-link-freetext" > target="_blank" > href="http://www.electric-f3a.com/Pack%20wiring.htm">http://www.electric-f3a.com/Pack%20wiring.htm
>
> Chris
>
> Rex wrote: >
type="cite"> > That's very nice, > Chris...
>
> R
>
>
> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 14:19:59 -0400
> From: class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" > target="_blank" > href="mailto:cjm767driver at hotmail.com">cjm767driver at hotmail.com
> To: class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" > target="_blank" > href="mailto:aabdu at sbcglobal.net">aabdu at sbcglobal.net; > class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" > target="_blank" > href="mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wiring diagram
>
> class="EC_moz-txt-link-freetext" > target="_blank" > href="http://www.electric-f3a.com/Pack%20wiring.htm">http://www.electric-f3a.com/Pack%20wiring.htm
>
> Chris
>
> Anthony Abdullah wrote: >
> cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> > > > > > >
valign="top"> >
style="padding-left:5px;margin-left:5px;"> > 
Does anyone have a drawing or a link
> to a drawing of how 2 5S packs
> 
should be wired to make a 10S pack
> for F3A use?
> 
Thanks
> 
Anthony
>
>
> 
 width="90%">
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>  class="EC_moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
>  target="_blank"
> href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>  class="EC_moz-txt-link-freetext"
>  target="_blank"
> href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
> 
> 

> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>  class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
> target="_blank"
> href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>  class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
> target="_blank"
> href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> 
> 

>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG -  class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
> target="_blank"
> href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com
>
> Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release
> Date: 03/11/09 08:28:00
>
>
>
> > > > >
_______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From pamrich47 at hotmail.com Wed Mar 11 17:16:12 2009 From: pamrich47 at hotmail.com (Richard Strickland) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 01:16:12 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Wiring diagram In-Reply-To: References: <787388.18463.qm@web82108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I was a little disappointed that resistance is not read when only using the nodes. I've got things set up with bullet conns right now--but I'm considering going to this set up as it's a little more fool-proof as upon occasion, I've been known to be a bit foolish... AND reading resistance is an excellent way of monitoring battery health--a lot of BS and adapters to hook up in its present config.... Thanks, Richard Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 17:49:53 -0400 From: cjm767driver at hotmail.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wiring diagram On the CellPro 10S you just need to connect the outer 2 charger outputs to the battery power lead. These are the terminals that would normally have the "blocking bar" inserted into them if you were not checking internal resistance or charging above 4 amps. Chris Richard Strickland wrote: OK, then what are you doing with the power leads so the Cellpro 10s will read resistance(which it will not do on nodes only)--making a harness to pick up the red from one and the black from the other into the corresponding colors/poles on A and B? (one each) RS Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 14:19:59 -0400 From: cjm767driver at hotmail.com To: aabdu at sbcglobal.net; nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wiring diagram http://www.electric-f3a.com/Pack%20wiring.htm Chris Anthony Abdullah wrote: Does anyone have a drawing or a link to a drawing of how 2 5S packsshould be wired to make a 10S pack for F3A use?ThanksAnthony _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. Check it out. _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date: 03/11/09 08:28:00 _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Life without walls. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_allup_1a_explore_032009 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jshulman at cfl.rr.com Wed Mar 11 17:39:14 2009 From: jshulman at cfl.rr.com (J Shu) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 01:39:14 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's what happens when I don't have props and spinners around. OK, safe guess around 8...lol. I'll look into props as I don't have many with 10 pitch. I think I gave Dave the last of my 15-10's a few years back, maybe he still has one. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "J N Hiller" To: "General pattern discussion" Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:35 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size > Jason, A 16-10 APC weighs 3.7 oz. I started running a Master Airscrew > 'Scimitar' series last summer which weighs 1.75 oz. I know it is heresy to > even speak of a wood prop but it actually runs pretty well having a slightly > lower top RPM but the mid range pulls well. They have nearly identical blade > profiles but the wood is a little thicker. I thought the reduced gyroscopic > effect would be beneficial on smaller lighter airplanes (mine is 8.5 lb). > When selecting props I always thought the best one for a particular airplane > / weight / motor combination was the one that offered the highest vertical > up speed. Try several, fly the one you like. > Jim Hiller > > -----Original Message----- > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of J Shu > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 1:19 PM > To: General pattern discussion > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size > > Sorry, airframe is 4 3/4, motor is 21oz, 8oz in servos, another 15oz for > spinner and prop... 8 more for the rest. Looks more like > 8lbs... I need to recheck my math next time...lol. > > Regards, > Jason > www.shulmanaviation.com > www.composite-arf.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob Richards" > To: "General pattern discussion" > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 4:09 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size > > >> >> 6 pounds. Hmmmm, don't you think you will need a bigger motor? ;-> >> >> Bob R. >> >> >> --- On Wed, 3/11/09, J Shu wrote: >> >>> >>> It'll be run on a >>> muffler in a 6lb pattern >>> plane. >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > From jerry at buddengineering.com Wed Mar 11 17:49:45 2009 From: jerry at buddengineering.com (Budd Engineering) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 01:49:45 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Wiring diagram In-Reply-To: <306463.14977.qm@web82106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <306463.14977.qm@web82106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: True RC has it for $6 and you won't get killed on shipping, plus it's a lot easier to handle customer service issues with a guy from Chicago who actually answers his phone, vs exchanging endless eMails with someone in Singapore who could care less about customer service (don't ask me how I know this). http://home.comcast.net/~truerc/Charge/chargers.htm Thx, Jerry Budd Engineering jerry at buddengineering.com http://www.buddengineering.com On Mar 11, 2009, at 5:53 PM, Anthony Abdullah wrote: > > I bought two 5S packs that already have Deans connectors on them, is > it OK to just plug them into this then plug this into the ESC? > > http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=2156&Product_Name=HXT_T-Connector_Series_Pack_lead > > > > > --- On Wed, 3/11/09, Chris Moon wrote: > >> From: Chris Moon >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wiring diagram >> To: "General pattern discussion" >> Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 6:29 PM >>
> "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks Rex. I forgot that I wanted to update that >> page - so anyone who >> has not seen that page in the last 5 minutes, check it >> again. I added >> another example and made the wording a little >> clearer.
>>
>> > class="moz-txt-link-freetext" >> target="_blank" >> href="http://www.electric-f3a.com/Pack%20wiring.htm">http://www.electric-f3a.com/Pack%20wiring.htm >>
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> Rex wrote: >>
> type="cite"> >> That's very nice, >> Chris...
>>
>> R
>>
>>
>> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 14:19:59 -0400
>> From: > class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" >> target="_blank" >> href="mailto:cjm767driver at hotmail.com">cjm767driver at hotmail.com> a>
>> To: > class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" >> target="_blank" >> href="mailto:aabdu at sbcglobal.net">aabdu at sbcglobal.net; >> > class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" >> target="_blank" >> href="mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wiring diagram
>>
>> > class="EC_moz-txt-link-freetext" >> target="_blank" >> href="http://www.electric-f3a.com/Pack%20wiring.htm">http://www.electric-f3a.com/Pack%20wiring.htm >>
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> Anthony Abdullah wrote: >>
>> > cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> valign="top"> >>
> style="padding-left:5px;margin-left:5px;"> >> 
Does anyone have a drawing or a link
>> to a drawing of how 2 5S packs
>> 
should be wired to make a 10S pack
>> for F3A use?
>> 
Thanks
>> 
Anthony
>>
>>
>> 
> width="90%">
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> > class="EC_moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
>> target="_blank"
>> href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
>> 
>> > class="EC_moz-txt-link-freetext"
>> target="_blank"
>> href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion 
>>
>>
>> 
>> 

>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> > class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
>> target="_blank"
>> href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
>> 
>> > class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
>> target="_blank"
>> href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion 
>>
>> 
>> 

>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - > class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
>> target="_blank"
>> href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com
>>
>> Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release
>> Date: 03/11/09 08:28:00
>>
>>
>>
>> >> >> >> >>
_______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From simestd at netexpress.com Wed Mar 11 18:43:41 2009 From: simestd at netexpress.com (Tom Simes) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 02:43:41 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Another advance in batteries Message-ID: <20090311184708.42370f66.simestd@netexpress.com> http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/22280/ According to the article, batteries with this electrode structure can be discharged in 10 seconds. "The new high rate, the researchers calculate, would allow a one-liter battery based on the material to deliver 25,000 watts". A123 has already licensed it. Tom ====================================================================== "Z-80 system stack overflow. Shut 'er down Scotty, the system's sucking mud" - Error message on TRS 80 Model-16B Tom Simes simestd at netexpress.com ====================================================================== From khoard at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 20:12:01 2009 From: khoard at gmail.com (Keith Hoard) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 04:12:01 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Another advance in batteries In-Reply-To: <20090311184708.42370f66.simestd@netexpress.com> References: <20090311184708.42370f66.simestd@netexpress.com> Message-ID: <6792ef120903112111t5b1a72eua49a8e1d5f688053@mail.gmail.com> Wow. . . we'll definately have to score takeoffs and landings, 'cause that's all you're going to get. . . On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Tom Simes wrote: > > > http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/22280/ > > According to the article, batteries with this electrode structure can be > discharged in 10 seconds. "The new high rate, the researchers > calculate, would allow a one-liter battery based on the material to > deliver 25,000 watts". A123 has already licensed it. > > Tom > > ====================================================================== > "Z-80 system stack overflow. Shut 'er down Scotty, the system's > sucking mud" - Error message on TRS 80 Model-16B > > Tom Simes simestd at netexpress.com > ====================================================================== > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AtwoodDon at aol.com Wed Mar 11 20:17:30 2009 From: AtwoodDon at aol.com (AtwoodDon at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 04:17:30 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Another advance in batteries Message-ID: We might have to strengthen the motor mounts and get ready for some serious acceleration Gs with 25,000 watts. I am not sure there would be much left to land after the 25,000 watt takeoff....... Don In a message dated 3/11/2009 9:13:09 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, khoard at gmail.com writes: Wow. . . we'll definately have to score takeoffs and landings, 'cause that's all you're going to get. . . On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Tom Simes <_simestd at netexpress.com_ (mailto:simestd at netexpress.com) > wrote: _http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/22280/_ (http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/22280/) According to the article, batteries with this electrode structure can be discharged in 10 seconds. "The new high rate, the researchers calculate, would allow a one-liter battery based on the material to deliver 25,000 watts". A123 has already licensed it. Tom ====================================================================== "Z-80 system stack overflow. Shut 'er down Scotty, the system's sucking mud" - Error message on TRS 80 Model-16B Tom Simes _simestd at netexpress.com_ (mailto:simestd at netexpress.com) ====================================================================== _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list _NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org_ (mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org) _http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion_ (http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion) -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN _khoard at gmail.com_ (mailto:khoard at gmail.com) _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From khoard at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 20:31:54 2009 From: khoard at gmail.com (Keith Hoard) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 04:31:54 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Another advance in batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6792ef120903112131l3a365da9j77a2328455585f89@mail.gmail.com> Hey, maybe we can adjust the schedules a little bit. . . You take off vertically, climb straaaaiiiggghhhhhttttt up for ten very fast and exciting seconds. . . . then do your aerobatics maneuver schedule Bob Hoover style all the way back down to the runway . . . On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 11:17 PM, wrote: > We might have to strengthen the motor mounts and get ready for some > serious acceleration Gs with 25,000 watts. I am not sure there would be > much left to land after the 25,000 watt takeoff....... > > Don > > In a message dated 3/11/2009 9:13:09 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > khoard at gmail.com writes: > > Wow. . . we'll definately have to score takeoffs and landings, 'cause > that's all you're going to get. . . > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Tom Simes wrote: > >> >> >> http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/22280/ >> >> According to the article, batteries with this electrode structure can be >> discharged in 10 seconds. "The new high rate, the researchers >> calculate, would allow a one-liter battery based on the material to >> deliver 25,000 watts". A123 has already licensed it. >> >> Tom >> >> ====================================================================== >> "Z-80 system stack overflow. Shut 'er down Scotty, the system's >> sucking mud" - Error message on TRS 80 Model-16B >> >> Tom Simes simestd at netexpress.com >> ====================================================================== >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> > > > > -- > > Keith Hoard > Collierville, TN > khoard at gmail.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > ------------------------------ > Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession > . > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trexlesh at msn.com Wed Mar 11 20:33:50 2009 From: trexlesh at msn.com (Rex) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 04:33:50 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Another advance in batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Great! Now we're back to vapor trails again!.... From: AtwoodDon at aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 00:17:21 -0400 To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Another advance in batteries We might have to strengthen the motor mounts and get ready for some serious acceleration Gs with 25,000 watts. I am not sure there would be much left to land after the 25,000 watt takeoff....... Don In a message dated 3/11/2009 9:13:09 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, khoard at gmail.com writes: Wow. . . we'll definately have to score takeoffs and landings, 'cause that's all you're going to get. . . On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Tom Simes wrote: http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/22280/ According to the article, batteries with this electrode structure can be discharged in 10 seconds. "The new high rate, the researchers calculate, would allow a one-liter battery based on the material to deliver 25,000 watts". A123 has already licensed it. Tom ====================================================================== "Z-80 system stack overflow. Shut 'er down Scotty, the system's sucking mud" - Error message on TRS 80 Model-16B Tom Simes simestd at netexpress.com ====================================================================== _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atwoodm at paragon-inc.com Wed Mar 11 20:34:33 2009 From: atwoodm at paragon-inc.com (Atwood, Mark) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 04:34:33 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size In-Reply-To: References: <48D3132A36634778BBC1E4BD77C6E350@UncleJasPC> Message-ID: <99B8EFCA36A5724F87FF3C71B431D872044F8A80D3@PEVM01.paragon-inc.com> I'm a fan of Black/Yellow/White and Silver...but then, I've never been accused of having any taste. -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ron Van Putte Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 5:45 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size I like the yellow instead of white, but prefer purple to black. Ron On Mar 11, 2009, at 3:59 PM, J Shu wrote: > The other color choice will be white instead of yellow and purple > instead of black. > > Regards, > Jason > www.shulmanaviation.com > www.composite-arf.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: CHV69 at aol.com > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 4:29 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] OS-120 tank and prop size > > In a message dated 3/11/2009 4:20:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > jshulman at cfl.rr.com writes: > Sorry, airframe is 4 3/4, motor is 21oz, 8oz in servos, another > 15oz for spinner and prop... 8 more for the rest. Looks more like > 8lbs... I need to recheck my math next time...lol. > What are you putting together? > > Carl > > A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From trexlesh at msn.com Wed Mar 11 20:47:12 2009 From: trexlesh at msn.com (Rex) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 04:47:12 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Another advance in batteries In-Reply-To: <6792ef120903112131l3a365da9j77a2328455585f89@mail.gmail.com> References: <6792ef120903112131l3a365da9j77a2328455585f89@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I wonder what an onboard halon system would weigh? Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 23:31:50 -0500 From: khoard at gmail.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Another advance in batteries Hey, maybe we can adjust the schedules a little bit. . . You take off vertically, climb straaaaiiiggghhhhhttttt up for ten very fast and exciting seconds. . . . then do your aerobatics maneuver schedule Bob Hoover style all the way back down to the runway . . . On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 11:17 PM, wrote: We might have to strengthen the motor mounts and get ready for some serious acceleration Gs with 25,000 watts. I am not sure there would be much left to land after the 25,000 watt takeoff....... Don In a message dated 3/11/2009 9:13:09 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, khoard at gmail.com writes: Wow. . . we'll definately have to score takeoffs and landings, 'cause that's all you're going to get. . . On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Tom Simes wrote: http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/22280/ According to the article, batteries with this electrode structure can be discharged in 10 seconds. "The new high rate, the researchers calculate, would allow a one-liter battery based on the material to deliver 25,000 watts". A123 has already licensed it. Tom ====================================================================== "Z-80 system stack overflow. Shut 'er down Scotty, the system's sucking mud" - Error message on TRS 80 Model-16B Tom Simes simestd at netexpress.com ====================================================================== _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From simestd at netexpress.com Wed Mar 11 20:57:14 2009 From: simestd at netexpress.com (Tom Simes) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 04:57:14 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Another advance in batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090311210040.35e1c82c.simestd@netexpress.com> On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 00:17:21 EDT AtwoodDon at aol.com wrote: > We might have to strengthen the motor mounts and get ready for some > serious acceleration Gs with 25,000 watts. I am not sure there > would be much left to land after the 25,000 watt takeoff....... :) 25,000 watts works out to a little over 33 horsepower - and according to Wikipedia is also about the power a typical automobile engine makes while cruising. Mighty impressive for a one liter battery! Now they just need to work on a widebody container with plug in wings :) Tom ====================================================================== "Z-80 system stack overflow. Shut 'er down Scotty, the system's sucking mud" - Error message on TRS 80 Model-16B Tom Simes simestd at netexpress.com ====================================================================== From trexlesh at msn.com Wed Mar 11 21:27:44 2009 From: trexlesh at msn.com (Rex) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 05:27:44 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Another advance in batteries In-Reply-To: <20090311210040.35e1c82c.simestd@netexpress.com> References: <20090311210040.35e1c82c.simestd@netexpress.com> Message-ID: I don't know if this is true or not, but I read an article about some guy that has found a new way to charge Lithium batteries.... according to him the charge in our batteries have a cobweb of crystalline like structure. Apparantly, he has figured out how to create a structure with twice as much capacity. He says that you can get twice the mAh out of the batteries.... If this is indeed true, most of our problems in electric modeling are solved. Just remember the old saying... don't believe anything you read or hear, and only half of what you see! Time will tell. When we were at the NW Expo last month, a guy came to the booth and was talking about his son, and that he is working on this sort of project. So, maybe there is some truth in it. Rex > Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 21:00:40 -0800 > From: simestd at netexpress.com > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Another advance in batteries > > On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 00:17:21 EDT > AtwoodDon at aol.com wrote: > > > We might have to strengthen the motor mounts and get ready for some > > serious acceleration Gs with 25,000 watts. I am not sure there > > would be much left to land after the 25,000 watt takeoff....... > > :) > > 25,000 watts works out to a little over 33 horsepower - and according to > Wikipedia is also about the power a typical automobile engine makes > while cruising. Mighty impressive for a one liter battery! Now they > just need to work on a widebody container with plug in wings :) > > Tom > > ====================================================================== > "Z-80 system stack overflow. Shut 'er down Scotty, the system's > sucking mud" - Error message on TRS 80 Model-16B > > Tom Simes simestd at netexpress.com > ====================================================================== > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From derekkoopowitz at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 21:46:48 2009 From: derekkoopowitz at gmail.com (Derek Koopowitz) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 05:46:48 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Another advance in batteries In-Reply-To: References: <20090311210040.35e1c82c.simestd@netexpress.com> Message-ID: <3861E32E896948B0B51441B2C8BCC258@BENICIA> Beautiful bridge over here for sale, Rex... LOL _____ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Rex Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 10:28 PM To: NSRCA-discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Another advance in batteries I don't know if this is true or not, but I read an article about some guy that has found a new way to charge Lithium batteries.... according to him the charge in our batteries have a cobweb of crystalline like structure. Apparantly, he has figured out how to create a structure with twice as much capacity. He says that you can get twice the mAh out of the batteries.... If this is indeed true, most of our problems in electric modeling are solved. Just remember the old saying... don't believe anything you read or hear, and only half of what you see! Time will tell. When we were at the NW Expo last month, a guy came to the booth and was talking about his son, and that he is working on this sort of project. So, maybe there is some truth in it. Rex > Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 21:00:40 -0800 > From: simestd at netexpress.com > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Another advance in batteries > > On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 00:17:21 EDT > AtwoodDon at aol.com wrote: > > > We might have to strengthen the motor mounts and get ready for some > > serious acceleration Gs with 25,000 watts. I am not sure there > > would be much left to land after the 25,000 watt takeoff....... > > :) > > 25,000 watts works out to a little over 33 horsepower - and according to > Wikipedia is also about the power a typical automobile engine makes > while cruising. Mighty impressive for a one liter battery! Now they > just need to work on a widebody container with plug in wings :) > > Tom > > ====================================================================== > "Z-80 system stack overflow. Shut 'er down Scotty, the system's > sucking mud" - Error message on TRS 80 Model-16B > > Tom Simes simestd at netexpress.com > ====================================================================== > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trexlesh at msn.com Wed Mar 11 23:03:37 2009 From: trexlesh at msn.com (Rex) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 07:03:37 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Another advance in batteries In-Reply-To: <3861E32E896948B0B51441B2C8BCC258@BENICIA> References: <20090311210040.35e1c82c.simestd@netexpress.com> <3861E32E896948B0B51441B2C8BCC258@BENICIA> Message-ID: Ya, well, I'm not holding my breath..... From: derekkoopowitz at gmail.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 22:46:40 -0700 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Another advance in batteries Beautiful bridge over here for sale, Rex... LOL From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Rex Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 10:28 PM To: NSRCA-discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Another advance in batteries I don't know if this is true or not, but I read an article about some guy that has found a new way to charge Lithium batteries.... according to him the charge in our batteries have a cobweb of crystalline like structure. Apparantly, he has figured out how to create a structure with twice as much capacity. He says that you can get twice the mAh out of the batteries.... If this is indeed true, most of our problems in electric modeling are solved. Just remember the old saying... don't believe anything you read or hear, and only half of what you see! Time will tell. When we were at the NW Expo last month, a guy came to the booth and was talking about his son, and that he is working on this sort of project. So, maybe there is some truth in it. Rex > Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 21:00:40 -0800 > From: simestd at netexpress.com > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Another advance in batteries > > On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 00:17:21 EDT > AtwoodDon at aol.com wrote: > > > We might have to strengthen the motor mounts and get ready for some > > serious acceleration Gs with 25,000 watts. I am not sure there > > would be much left to land after the 25,000 watt takeoff....... > > :) > > 25,000 watts works out to a little over 33 horsepower - and according to > Wikipedia is also about the power a typical automobile engine makes > while cruising. Mighty impressive for a one liter battery! Now they > just need to work on a widebody container with plug in wings :) > > Tom > > ====================================================================== > "Z-80 system stack overflow. Shut 'er down Scotty, the system's > sucking mud" - Error message on TRS 80 Model-16B > > Tom Simes simestd at netexpress.com > ====================================================================== > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lightfoot at sc.rr.com Thu Mar 12 08:15:41 2009 From: lightfoot at sc.rr.com (Jay Marshall) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 16:15:41 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Another advance in batteries In-Reply-To: <20090311184708.42370f66.simestd@netexpress.com> Message-ID: Another article: http://www.nature.com/news/2009/090311/full/news.2009.156.html#B1 Jay Marshall -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Tom Simes Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 10:47 PM To: NSRCA Mailing List Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Another advance in batteries http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/22280/ According to the article, batteries with this electrode structure can be discharged in 10 seconds. "The new high rate, the researchers calculate, would allow a one-liter battery based on the material to deliver 25,000 watts". A123 has already licensed it. Tom ====================================================================== "Z-80 system stack overflow. Shut 'er down Scotty, the system's sucking mud" - Error message on TRS 80 Model-16B Tom Simes simestd at netexpress.com ====================================================================== _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From rob at koolsoft.com Thu Mar 12 09:47:48 2009 From: rob at koolsoft.com (Robert L. Beaubien) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 17:47:48 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Yuma Contest weather Message-ID: Hey all, Weather looks great for the upcoming contest in Yuma, AZ. High temps around 90* and wind around 5mph. Hope to see you there. Contest Flyer: http://www.patternflying.net/NewsDetailPage.aspx?ID=28 Pre-Registration form: http://www.patternflying.net/TempRegistrationPage.aspx - Robert Beaubien - NSRCA, District 7 Webmaster - "No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From THERUPMAN at aol.com Thu Mar 12 09:57:22 2009 From: THERUPMAN at aol.com (THERUPMAN at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 17:57:22 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Yuma Contest weather Message-ID: Thank you for you're environmental message. Wish I'd thought oif it. Bob Ruppel Nashville,TN **************Need a job? Find employment help in your area. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rob at koolsoft.com Thu Mar 12 10:07:09 2009 From: rob at koolsoft.com (Robert L. Beaubien) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 18:07:09 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Yuma Contest weather In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Making you jealous of our weather here in the southwest? :-) I notice it's a bit damp in Nashville. - Robert Beaubien - NSRCA, District 7 Webmaster - "No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced." From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of THERUPMAN at aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 10:57 AM To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Yuma Contest weather Thank you for you're environmental message. Wish I'd thought oif it. Bob Ruppel Nashville,TN ________________________________ Need a job? Find employment help in your area . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From THERUPMAN at aol.com Thu Mar 12 10:27:34 2009 From: THERUPMAN at aol.com (THERUPMAN at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 18:27:34 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Yuma Contest weather Message-ID: I'm starting to call it "Caribou,TN". **************Need a job? Find employment help in your area. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skyjules1 at comcast.net Thu Mar 12 11:52:31 2009 From: skyjules1 at comcast.net (skyjules1 at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 19:52:31 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] FS: YS 61R Long Stroke In-Reply-To: <220154.23765.qm@web36704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1988612584.633541236887548909.JavaMail.root@sz0076a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Bob, I am interested in the extra parts for the engine. I also have a NIB 61 LS and want to protect myself in case some nasty thing happens. What are you asking for those parts? In case you may recall I asked you about the pipe length to? start from on my Summit 3, which as I recall, is the same plane you were working at that time. Mine is finished but not yet flown and, as they say here in Chicago for the Cubs "THIS IS THE YEAR!!!!:. Looking forward to your response. Thanks, Jules Kopielski ? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Kane" To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 9:06:40 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] FS: YS 61R Long Stroke I have a NIB YS61R Long Stroke, #YS0090 for sale. It is NIB and has 2 extra gasket sets (YS1190), o-ring kit (YS1175) and even a new conrod (YS1035). ?I bought the extra parts for my YS61AR which was sold with a plane a couple of years ago. ?Let me know, thanks. ?Bob Kane getterflash at yahoo.com ?? ? ? _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jacontrera at earthlink.net Thu Mar 12 13:29:00 2009 From: jacontrera at earthlink.net (John C) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 21:29:00 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Yuma Contest weather Message-ID: <8752355.1236893335861.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jshulman at cfl.rr.com Thu Mar 12 18:43:53 2009 From: jshulman at cfl.rr.com (J Shu) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 02:43:53 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] looking for Message-ID: Tuny... anyone have his email address? Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com From jonlowe at aol.com Thu Mar 12 19:07:00 2009 From: jonlowe at aol.com (Jon Lowe) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 03:07:00 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] looking for In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CB719FDD2C8B32-8A4-18CA@FWM-D34.sysops.aol.com> tuny90 at hotmail.com Jon Lowe -----Original Message----- From: J Shu To: NSRCA Sent: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 9:43 pm Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] looking for Tuny... anyone have his email address?? ? Regards,? Jason? www.shulmanaviation.com? www.composite-arf.com? ? _______________________________________________? NSRCA-discussion mailing list? NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org? http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion? From jshulman at cfl.rr.com Thu Mar 12 19:15:19 2009 From: jshulman at cfl.rr.com (J Shu) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 03:15:19 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] looking for In-Reply-To: <8CB719FDD2C8B32-8A4-18CA@FWM-D34.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CB719FDD2C8B32-8A4-18CA@FWM-D34.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Thanks Jon. Call me when you're here, we'll be flying too. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Lowe" To: Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 11:06 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] looking for > > tuny90 at hotmail.com > > Jon Lowe > > > -----Original Message----- > From: J Shu > To: NSRCA > Sent: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 9:43 pm > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] looking for > > > > > > > > > > Tuny... anyone have his email address? > > > Regards, > > Jason > > www.shulmanaviation.com > > www.composite-arf.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From jonlowe at aol.com Thu Mar 12 19:40:48 2009 From: jonlowe at aol.com (Jon Lowe) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 03:40:48 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] looking for In-Reply-To: References: <8CB719FDD2C8B32-8A4-18CA@FWM-D34.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CB71A4992BBA7C-8A4-19D4@FWM-D34.sysops.aol.com> Ok, planning on driving down Saturday. Hope to fly Sunday on, weather permitting. Weather here has been weird, couldn't fly for 2 weeks, then got 5 days straight. Now got rain and high winds. Hope FL is better! Jon Lowe -----Original Message----- From: J Shu To: General pattern discussion Sent: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 10:15 pm Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] looking for Thanks Jon. Call me when you're here, we'll be flying too.? ? Regards,? Jason? www.shulmanaviation.com? www.composite-arf.com? ? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Lowe" ? To: ? Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 11:06 PM? Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] looking for? ? >? > tuny90 at hotmail.com? > > Jon Lowe? > > > -----Original Message-----? > From: J Shu ? > To: NSRCA ? > Sent: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 9:43 pm? > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] looking for? > > > > > > > > > > Tuny... anyone have his email address? > > > Regards, > > Jason > > www.shulmanaviation.com > > www.composite-arf.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > > > _______________________________________________? > NSRCA-discussion mailing list? > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org? > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion? ? _______________________________________________? NSRCA-discussion mailing list? NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org? http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion? From chad at f3acanada.org Thu Mar 12 19:45:26 2009 From: chad at f3acanada.org (Chad Northeast) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 03:45:26 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] looking for In-Reply-To: <8CB71A4992BBA7C-8A4-19D4@FWM-D34.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CB719FDD2C8B32-8A4-18CA@FWM-D34.sysops.aol.com> <8CB71A4992BBA7C-8A4-19D4@FWM-D34.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <49B9D6C7.6030602@f3acanada.org> Me too! If it snows when I am there well............. Chad Jon Lowe wrote: > Ok, planning on driving down Saturday. Hope to fly Sunday on, weather > permitting. Weather here has been weird, couldn't fly for 2 weeks, > then got 5 days straight. Now got rain and high winds. Hope FL is > better! > > > Jon Lowe > > > -----Original Message----- > From: J Shu > To: General pattern discussion > Sent: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 10:15 pm > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] looking for > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Jon. Call me when you're here, we'll be flying too. > > > Regards, > > Jason > > www.shulmanaviation.com > > www.composite-arf.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jon Lowe" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 11:06 PM > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] looking for > > > >> > >> tuny90 at hotmail.com > >> >> Jon Lowe > >> >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: J Shu > >> To: NSRCA > >> Sent: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 9:43 pm > >> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] looking for > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Tuny... anyone have his email address? >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Jason >> >> www.shulmanaviation.com >> >> www.composite-arf.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list > >> >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list > >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > _______________________________________________ > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- Chad www.chadnortheast.ca From jshulman at cfl.rr.com Thu Mar 12 19:45:35 2009 From: jshulman at cfl.rr.com (J Shu) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 03:45:35 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] looking for In-Reply-To: <8CB71A4992BBA7C-8A4-19D4@FWM-D34.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CB719FDD2C8B32-8A4-18CA@FWM-D34.sysops.aol.com> <8CB71A4992BBA7C-8A4-19D4@FWM-D34.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <5D476273C5D244EF9AD946CC58176981@UncleJasPC> Don't you bring that here... it's started to get a bit windy today in the evening... Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Lowe" To: Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 11:40 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] looking for > Ok, planning on driving down Saturday. Hope to fly Sunday on, weather > permitting. Weather here has been weird, couldn't fly for 2 weeks, > then got 5 days straight. Now got rain and high winds. Hope FL is > better! > > > Jon Lowe > > > -----Original Message----- > From: J Shu > To: General pattern discussion > Sent: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 10:15 pm > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] looking for > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Jon. Call me when you're here, we'll be flying too. > > > Regards, > > Jason > > www.shulmanaviation.com > > www.composite-arf.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jon Lowe" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 11:06 PM > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] looking for > > > >> > >> tuny90 at hotmail.com > >> >> Jon Lowe > >> >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: J Shu > >> To: NSRCA > >> Sent: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 9:43 pm > >> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] looking for > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Tuny... anyone have his email address? >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Jason >> >> www.shulmanaviation.com >> >> www.composite-arf.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list > >> >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list > >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > _______________________________________________ > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From jshulman at cfl.rr.com Thu Mar 12 19:51:37 2009 From: jshulman at cfl.rr.com (J Shu) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 03:51:37 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] looking for In-Reply-To: <49B9D6C7.6030602@f3acanada.org> References: <8CB719FDD2C8B32-8A4-18CA@FWM-D34.sysops.aol.com><8CB71A4992BBA7C-8A4-19D4@FWM-D34.sysops.aol.com> <49B9D6C7.6030602@f3acanada.org> Message-ID: If it snows... then you're on the first flight HOME!!! Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Northeast" To: "General pattern discussion" Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 11:45 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] looking for > Me too! If it snows when I am there well............. > > Chad > > Jon Lowe wrote: >> Ok, planning on driving down Saturday. Hope to fly Sunday on, weather >> permitting. Weather here has been weird, couldn't fly for 2 weeks, >> then got 5 days straight. Now got rain and high winds. Hope FL is >> better! >> >> >> Jon Lowe >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: J Shu >> To: General pattern discussion >> Sent: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 10:15 pm >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] looking for >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks Jon. Call me when you're here, we'll be flying too. >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Jason >> >> www.shulmanaviation.com >> >> www.composite-arf.com >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jon Lowe" >> >> To: >> >> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 11:06 PM >> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] looking for >> >> >> >>> >> >>> tuny90 at hotmail.com >> >>> >>> Jon Lowe >> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: J Shu >> >>> To: NSRCA >> >>> Sent: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 9:43 pm >> >>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] looking for >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Tuny... anyone have his email address? >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Jason >>> >>> www.shulmanaviation.com >>> >>> www.composite-arf.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> >>> >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>> >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > -- > Chad > > www.chadnortheast.ca > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > From jonlowe at aol.com Thu Mar 12 20:08:16 2009 From: jonlowe at aol.com (Jon Lowe) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 04:08:16 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] looking for In-Reply-To: References: <8CB719FDD2C8B32-8A4-18CA@FWM-D34.sysops.aol.com><8CB71A4992BBA7C-8A4-19D4@FWM-D34.sysops.aol.com><49B9D6C7.6030602@f3acanada.org> Message-ID: <8CB71A86EF95EC1-8A4-1A9F@FWM-D34.sysops.aol.com> Hey, don't forget, last year at Ocala we had torrential rain on Friday, 30+mph wind Saturday, and frost/ice Sunday morning. Only contest I've ever been to that I literally had to wipe ice off my wings before I could fly my first round. Hopefully, the weather got that out of its system last year... Jon Lowe -----Original Message----- From: J Shu To: chad at f3acanada.org; General pattern discussion Sent: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 10:51 pm Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] looking for If it snows... then you're on the first flight HOME!!!? ? Regards,? Jason? www.shulmanaviation.com? www.composite-arf.com? ? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Northeast" ? To: "General pattern discussion" ? Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 11:45 PM? Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] looking for? ? > Me too! If it snows when I am there well.............? > > Chad? > > Jon Lowe wrote:? >> Ok, planning on driving down Saturday. Hope to fly Sunday on, weather >> permitting. Weather here has been weird, couldn't fly for 2 weeks, >> then got 5 days straight. Now got rain and high winds. Hope FL is >> better!? >>? >>? >> Jon Lowe? >>? >>? >> -----Original Message-----? >> From: J Shu ? >> To: General pattern discussion ? >> Sent: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 10:15 pm? >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] looking for? >>? >>? >>? >>? >>? >>? >>? >>? >>? >> Thanks Jon. Call me when you're here, we'll be flying too. >> >>? >> Regards, >>? >> Jason >>? >> www.shulmanaviation.com >>? >> www.composite-arf.com >> >>? >> ----- Original Message -----? >> From: "Jon Lowe" >>? >> To: >>? >> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 11:06 PM >>? >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] looking for >> >>? >>? >>> >>? >>> tuny90 at hotmail.com >>? >>>? >>> Jon Lowe >>? >>>? >>>? >>> -----Original Message----- >>? >>> From: J Shu >>? >>> To: NSRCA >>? >>> Sent: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 9:43 pm >>? >>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] looking for >>? >>>? >>>? >>>? >>>? >>>? >>>? >>>? >>>? >>>? >>> Tuny... anyone have his email address?? >>>? >>>? >>> Regards,? >>>? >>> Jason? >>>? >>> www.shulmanaviation.com? >>>? >>> www.composite-arf.com? >>>? >>>? >>>? >>> _______________________________________________? >>>? >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list? >>? >>>? >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org? >>>? >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion? >>>? >>>? >>>? >>>? >>>? >>> _______________________________________________ >>? >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>? >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>? >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >>? >> _______________________________________________ >>? >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>? >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>? >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>? >>? >>? >>? >>? >> _______________________________________________? >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list? >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org? >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion? > > -- > Chad? > > www.chadnortheast.ca? > > _______________________________________________? > NSRCA-discussion mailing list? > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org? > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dis cussion? >? ? _______________________________________________? NSRCA-discussion mailing list? NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org? http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion? From jpavlick at idseng.com Sat Mar 14 17:02:13 2009 From: jpavlick at idseng.com (John Pavlick) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 01:02:13 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Hopper tanks Message-ID: <005001c9a509$a988bfd0$9501a8c0@GW7422> I'm about to install a hopper tank for the first time. If anybody has any advice / pictures, please pass it along. TIA John Pavlick http://www.idseng.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonlowe at aol.com Sat Mar 14 17:14:58 2009 From: jonlowe at aol.com (Jon Lowe) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 01:14:58 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Hopper tanks In-Reply-To: <005001c9a509$a988bfd0$9501a8c0@GW7422> References: <005001c9a509$a988bfd0$9501a8c0@GW7422> Message-ID: <8CB7322919CAF89-868-3AD7@FWM-D34.sysops.aol.com> I'm assuming this is for a YS. The real question is why? Do you need it to move the CG? I've found no need otherwise. I've run with and without, and could not tell any difference. Just more weight. That being said, just set it up like a normal tank, and use a bubbleless clunk in it also. Run the output of the main tank to the vent line of the hopper. Jon Lowe -----Original Message----- From: John Pavlick To: NSRCA Discussion Sent: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 8:02 pm Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Hopper tanks I'm about to install a hopper tank for the first time. If anybody has any advice / pictures, please pass it along. TIA ? John Pavlick http://www.idseng.com _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From completemarine02 at sprintpcs.com Sat Mar 14 17:57:45 2009 From: completemarine02 at sprintpcs.com (Rusty Fried) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 01:57:45 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Hopper tanks In-Reply-To: <005001c9a509$a988bfd0$9501a8c0@GW7422> References: <005001c9a509$a988bfd0$9501a8c0@GW7422> Message-ID: <001501c9a511$6d25f140$4771d3c0$@com> Go to sunvalleyfliers.com. From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John Pavlick Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 6:02 PM To: NSRCA Discussion Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Hopper tanks I'm about to install a hopper tank for the first time. If anybody has any advice / pictures, please pass it along. TIA John Pavlick http://www.idseng.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 14 20:18:07 2009 From: homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com (krishlan fitzsimmons) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 04:18:07 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Hopper tanks In-Reply-To: <001501c9a511$6d25f140$4771d3c0$@com> Message-ID: <615472.82637.qm@web33005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hey Tinkerbell!!!!!!!!!!!!! Chris ? ? ? --- On Sat, 3/14/09, Rusty Fried wrote: From: Rusty Fried Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Hopper tanks To: "'General pattern discussion'" Date: Saturday, March 14, 2009, 6:57 PM Go to sunvalleyfliers.com. ? From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John Pavlick Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 6:02 PM To: NSRCA Discussion Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Hopper tanks ? I'm about to install a hopper tank for the first time. If anybody has any advice / pictures, please pass it along. TIA ? John Pavlick http://www.idseng.com _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpavlick at idseng.com Sat Mar 14 20:27:19 2009 From: jpavlick at idseng.com (John Pavlick) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 04:27:19 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Hopper tanks References: <005001c9a509$a988bfd0$9501a8c0@GW7422> <001501c9a511$6d25f140$4771d3c0$@com> Message-ID: <009501c9a526$4f692180$9501a8c0@GW7422> OK, there's a lot of stuff there. Any specific area that I should be looking at? John Pavlick http://www.idseng.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Rusty Fried To: 'General pattern discussion' Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 9:57 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Hopper tanks Go to sunvalleyfliers.com. From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John Pavlick Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 6:02 PM To: NSRCA Discussion Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Hopper tanks I'm about to install a hopper tank for the first time. If anybody has any advice / pictures, please pass it along. TIA John Pavlick http://www.idseng.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jshulman at cfl.rr.com Sat Mar 14 23:14:39 2009 From: jshulman at cfl.rr.com (J Shu) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 07:14:39 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Message-ID: <404DFD2C1D4B4F3DA252AB6D72D71F8D@UncleJasPC> I want to add another layer of sealer to the firewall and tunnel on my plane... what's the best way to do it with epoxy? I've got 30 minute but not sure how to thin it to seal it. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_4498 (500 x 299).jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 56892 bytes Desc: not available URL: From trexlesh at msn.com Sat Mar 14 23:27:22 2009 From: trexlesh at msn.com (Rex) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 07:27:22 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? In-Reply-To: <404DFD2C1D4B4F3DA252AB6D72D71F8D@UncleJasPC> References: <404DFD2C1D4B4F3DA252AB6D72D71F8D@UncleJasPC> Message-ID: You can use denatured alcohol... I've used laquer thinner, but it evaporates pretty fast... Rex > From: jshulman at cfl.rr.com > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 03:14:26 -0400 > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? > > I want to add another layer of sealer to the firewall and tunnel on my plane... what's the best way to do it with epoxy? I've got 30 > minute but not sure how to thin it to seal it. > > Regards, > Jason > www.shulmanaviation.com > www.composite-arf.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jshulman at cfl.rr.com Sat Mar 14 23:32:16 2009 From: jshulman at cfl.rr.com (J Shu) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 07:32:16 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? In-Reply-To: <404DFD2C1D4B4F3DA252AB6D72D71F8D@UncleJasPC> References: <404DFD2C1D4B4F3DA252AB6D72D71F8D@UncleJasPC> Message-ID: This is the tunnel area, then of course the firewall area. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_4503 (450 x 357).jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 59220 bytes Desc: not available URL: From patternrules at yahoo.com Sat Mar 14 23:37:00 2009 From: patternrules at yahoo.com (Steven Maxwell) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 07:37:00 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Message-ID: <286212.91671.qm@web111306.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Night owls on both coast and one in the middle --- On Sun, 3/15/09, J Shu wrote: From: J Shu Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Sunday, March 15, 2009, 3:32 AM This is the tunnel area, then of course the firewall area. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vanputte at cox.net Sun Mar 15 05:51:48 2009 From: vanputte at cox.net (Ron Van Putte) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 13:51:48 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? In-Reply-To: References: <404DFD2C1D4B4F3DA252AB6D72D71F8D@UncleJasPC> Message-ID: I've used denatured alcohol and it works well, but I like heating the applied 30 minute epoxy even better. I spread on a light coat of epoxy and heat the whole area with a heat gun. The heat thins the epoxy dramatically and will even start to run. That's good, because the epoxy will seep into all the crevices it can find. I rotate the fuselage and let gravity take the epoxy into the crevices. The heat also accelerates the curing process, causing it to cure in far less than 30 minutes. Ron On Mar 15, 2009, at 2:27 AM, Rex wrote: > You can use denatured alcohol... I've used laquer thinner, but it > evaporates pretty fast... > > Rex > > > From: jshulman at cfl.rr.com > > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 03:14:26 -0400 > > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? > > > > I want to add another layer of sealer to the firewall and tunnel > on my plane... what's the best way to do it with epoxy? I've got 30 > > minute but not sure how to thin it to seal it. > > > > Regards, > > Jason > > www.shulmanaviation.com > > www.composite-arf.com > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From kvelez at rochester.rr.com Sun Mar 15 06:37:11 2009 From: kvelez at rochester.rr.com (Ken Velez) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 14:37:11 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3A22A751FAD6412E943A1916E4F2D6C7@ken42e65a0511d> Why don't you use Epoxy Resin instead of Epoxy glue, it already comes thin if what your doing in none structural, sealing. Unless all you have 30 min Epoxy and thinner. Easier yet Midwest Formula U Clear varnish Spray #20127. Ken -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ron Van Putte Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 9:52 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? I've used denatured alcohol and it works well, but I like heating the applied 30 minute epoxy even better. I spread on a light coat of epoxy and heat the whole area with a heat gun. The heat thins the epoxy dramatically and will even start to run. That's good, because the epoxy will seep into all the crevices it can find. I rotate the fuselage and let gravity take the epoxy into the crevices. The heat also accelerates the curing process, causing it to cure in far less than 30 minutes. Ron On Mar 15, 2009, at 2:27 AM, Rex wrote: > You can use denatured alcohol... I've used laquer thinner, but it > evaporates pretty fast... > > Rex > > > From: jshulman at cfl.rr.com > > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 03:14:26 -0400 > > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? > > > > I want to add another layer of sealer to the firewall and tunnel > on my plane... what's the best way to do it with epoxy? I've got 30 > > minute but not sure how to thin it to seal it. > > > > Regards, > > Jason > > www.shulmanaviation.com > > www.composite-arf.com > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From khoard at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 06:59:40 2009 From: khoard at gmail.com (Keith Hoard) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 14:59:40 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? In-Reply-To: References: <404DFD2C1D4B4F3DA252AB6D72D71F8D@UncleJasPC> Message-ID: <6792ef120903150759v2fae3c20j60bf83660478514a@mail.gmail.com> Another good way is to take a bowl of water and heat it up, then float your epoxy mixing bowl in the hot water. And Ron is right, you need to work quickly 'cause the epoxy will cure very quickly once you heat it up. When the first batch hardens up, just keep adding new epoxy to the bowl and the hot water will keep it liquid. . . I also have (my wife's) hair dryer standing by to heat up any epoxy once its on the plane and help it flow. On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 8:51 AM, Ron Van Putte wrote: > I've used denatured alcohol and it works well, but I like heating the > applied 30 minute epoxy even better. I spread on a light coat of epoxy and > heat the whole area with a heat gun. The heat thins the epoxy dramatically > and will even start to run. That's good, because the epoxy will seep into > all the crevices it can find. I rotate the fuselage and let gravity take > the epoxy into the crevices. The heat also accelerates the curing process, > causing it to cure in far less than 30 minutes. > > Ron > > On Mar 15, 2009, at 2:27 AM, Rex wrote: > > You can use denatured alcohol... I've used laquer thinner, but it >> evaporates pretty fast... >> >> Rex >> >> > From: jshulman at cfl.rr.com >> > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> > Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 03:14:26 -0400 >> > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? >> > >> > I want to add another layer of sealer to the firewall and tunnel on my >> plane... what's the best way to do it with epoxy? I've got 30 >> > minute but not sure how to thin it to seal it. >> > >> > Regards, >> > Jason >> > www.shulmanaviation.com >> > www.composite-arf.com >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kerlock at comcast.net Sun Mar 15 07:51:44 2009 From: kerlock at comcast.net (Mike Hester) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 15:51:44 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Hopper tanks References: <005001c9a509$a988bfd0$9501a8c0@GW7422><001501c9a511$6d25f140$4771d3c0$@com> <009501c9a526$4f692180$9501a8c0@GW7422> Message-ID: <032BD299C61B4FDB8C748EE805AFA418@Sanity> I posted a pic of the set up somewhere. The big thing to keep in mind is that a hopper tank and a header tank are not the same thing. A header tank is used to keep the fuel pick up closer to the carb/needle, while the hopper tank is used primarily for removing unwanted air bubbles in a high vibration environment. usually, people call them ALL header tanks, and I'm guilty as charged. Hopper tanks have been used in helicopters and ducted fans (remember those?) for years. Basically you want a 2 ounce tank (or 4+ if you need nose weight but don't want it to be permanent, as in you can drain it for the weight check LOL...I know I know, "evil"....). One line you set up like a standard fuel tank vent tube. This runs straight to the pick up of your main tank; and yes use the foam clunk that YS makes in the main tank. The other is the more important, this is a solid piece of brass/aluminum tubing that has it's end pick up geometric center of the 2 ounce tank. This leads to the engine. The way it works is, as the fuel flows into the hopper tank, any air bubbles travel to the outside of the tank, and the pickup always draws pure fuel. Since even a pinhead size air bubble can cause the DZ to caugh or sag (or worse), it's just extra insurance. I could tell a difference, some can't, some need it, some don't. if weight ins't an issue, it's definitely a good insurance policy against that dreaded caugh under high G manuevers toward the end of the flight. The old masters and FAI patterns had quite a few of these and it was more pronounced than now, but I still enjoy the confidence in KNOWING that if my engine caughs, I'm down to about 1 ounce of fuel and I have been up WAY too long =) I know what you're building, and I know it'll be light. Don't overthink it with that engineer noggin. Install one and call it a day. One less thing to worry about. or one more, depending on how you look at it.... -Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: John Pavlick To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 12:27 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Hopper tanks OK, there's a lot of stuff there. Any specific area that I should be looking at? John Pavlick http://www.idseng.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Rusty Fried To: 'General pattern discussion' Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 9:57 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Hopper tanks Go to sunvalleyfliers.com. From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John Pavlick Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 6:02 PM To: NSRCA Discussion Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Hopper tanks I'm about to install a hopper tank for the first time. If anybody has any advice / pictures, please pass it along. TIA John Pavlick http://www.idseng.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.1.440) Database version: 6.11960 http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.1.440) Database version: 6.11960 http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.1.440) Database version: 6.11960 http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kerlock at comcast.net Sun Mar 15 08:00:10 2009 From: kerlock at comcast.net (Mike Hester) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 16:00:10 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? References: <404DFD2C1D4B4F3DA252AB6D72D71F8D@UncleJasPC> Message-ID: <7716C876A7EF4E76BCD9822586AA5660@Sanity> Just mix some in a cup, and then pour in a little less than that much in acetone. Stir and serve at room temp.....LOL BTW since the acetone slows down the curing process, 5 minute works fine too. Cool looking plane BTW, this the 120 size? -Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "J Shu" To: "NSRCA" Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 3:14 AM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? >I want to add another layer of sealer to the firewall and tunnel on my >plane... what's the best way to do it with epoxy? I've got 30 > minute but not sure how to thin it to seal it. > > Regards, > Jason > www.shulmanaviation.com > www.composite-arf.com > > > > > E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.1.440) > Database version: 6.11960 > http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.1.440) > Database version: 6.11960 > http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ > E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.1.440) Database version: 6.11960 http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ From derekkoopowitz at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 08:27:20 2009 From: derekkoopowitz at gmail.com (Derek Koopowitz) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 16:27:20 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? In-Reply-To: <404DFD2C1D4B4F3DA252AB6D72D71F8D@UncleJasPC> References: <404DFD2C1D4B4F3DA252AB6D72D71F8D@UncleJasPC> Message-ID: <8E780244B5A94625AC8FAC72F0DAE813@BENICIA> Denatured alcohol... It should be nice and runny after being mixed. -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of J Shu Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 12:14 AM To: NSRCA Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? I want to add another layer of sealer to the firewall and tunnel on my plane... what's the best way to do it with epoxy? I've got 30 minute but not sure how to thin it to seal it. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com From mkmsg at cox.net Sun Mar 15 09:17:03 2009 From: mkmsg at cox.net (MKMSG) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 17:17:03 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Futaba 2.4 7 Channel Receiver Message-ID: <6B195B3CE2474A7CB2A4EECC62CFFECA@usera1262bf031> Outside of the number of channels, is there any appreciable performance difference between the Futaba 2.4 gig 8 channel receiver and the 2.4 gig 7 channel receiver? I have the 8 channel 2.4 module in my 9 ZAP. It has a very small micro switch which must be moved whenever I want to use a receiver less than 8 channels. Since I fly some indoor using the Futaba 4 channel 2.4 receiver, that switch does get a workout. However, it doesn't look like it was built to be repeately moved back and forth like a receiver on/off switch and I fear it will eventually fail. If I use the 7 channel receiver in my 2 meter ships, the problem goes away since the switch would be able to remain in the 7 channel position forever. Any feedback would be appreciated. Mike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rob at koolsoft.com Sun Mar 15 09:28:59 2009 From: rob at koolsoft.com (Robert L. Beaubien) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 17:28:59 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Futaba 2.4 7 Channel Receiver In-Reply-To: <6B195B3CE2474A7CB2A4EECC62CFFECA@usera1262bf031> References: <6B195B3CE2474A7CB2A4EECC62CFFECA@usera1262bf031> Message-ID: The 8- and 14- (and upcoming 10-) channel receivers all are 2048 bit resolution. The 4-, 6-, and 7- channnel receivers are all 1024 resolution. The other difference is the 8-, 10-, and 14-channel receiver all support all channel failsafe. The rest only support channel 3 failsafe and hold on the rest of the channels. - Robert Beaubien - NSRCA, District 7 Webmaster - "No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced." From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of MKMSG Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 10:17 AM To: NSRCA Discussion List Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Futaba 2.4 7 Channel Receiver Outside of the number of channels, is there any appreciable performance difference between the Futaba 2.4 gig 8 channel receiver and the 2.4 gig 7 channel receiver? I have the 8 channel 2.4 module in my 9 ZAP. It has a very small micro switch which must be moved whenever I want to use a receiver less than 8 channels. Since I fly some indoor using the Futaba 4 channel 2.4 receiver, that switch does get a workout. However, it doesn't look like it was built to be repeately moved back and forth like a receiver on/off switch and I fear it will eventually fail. If I use the 7 channel receiver in my 2 meter ships, the problem goes away since the switch would be able to remain in the 7 channel position forever. Any feedback would be appreciated. Mike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rob at koolsoft.com Sun Mar 15 09:42:29 2009 From: rob at koolsoft.com (Robert L. Beaubien) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 17:42:29 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Futaba 2.4 7 Channel Receiver In-Reply-To: References: <6B195B3CE2474A7CB2A4EECC62CFFECA@usera1262bf031> Message-ID: I figured I should clarify what that means for you. Because you are using a 9ZAP, failsafe is not supported at all by the radio in PPM mode so you only have failsafe (set in the receiver) for channel 3 with hold on the remaining channels even if you use the 8-channel receiver. Additionally, your radio is only designed to output 1024 resolution, if you use the 8-channel receiver, the conversion process to 2048 resolution will not double what the radio outputs, though it will improve. Real world, I doubt you would see any difference between the 2. Hope that helps. - Robert Beaubien - NSRCA, District 7 Webmaster - "No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced." From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Robert L. Beaubien Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 10:29 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Futaba 2.4 7 Channel Receiver The 8- and 14- (and upcoming 10-) channel receivers all are 2048 bit resolution. The 4-, 6-, and 7- channnel receivers are all 1024 resolution. The other difference is the 8-, 10-, and 14-channel receiver all support all channel failsafe. The rest only support channel 3 failsafe and hold on the rest of the channels. - Robert Beaubien - NSRCA, District 7 Webmaster - "No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced." From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of MKMSG Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 10:17 AM To: NSRCA Discussion List Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Futaba 2.4 7 Channel Receiver Outside of the number of channels, is there any appreciable performance difference between the Futaba 2.4 gig 8 channel receiver and the 2.4 gig 7 channel receiver? I have the 8 channel 2.4 module in my 9 ZAP. It has a very small micro switch which must be moved whenever I want to use a receiver less than 8 channels. Since I fly some indoor using the Futaba 4 channel 2.4 receiver, that switch does get a workout. However, it doesn't look like it was built to be repeately moved back and forth like a receiver on/off switch and I fear it will eventually fail. If I use the 7 channel receiver in my 2 meter ships, the problem goes away since the switch would be able to remain in the 7 channel position forever. Any feedback would be appreciated. Mike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkmsg at cox.net Sun Mar 15 10:00:21 2009 From: mkmsg at cox.net (MKMSG) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 18:00:21 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Futaba 2.4 7 Channel Receiver References: <6B195B3CE2474A7CB2A4EECC62CFFECA@usera1262bf031> Message-ID: Robert: Thanks....very clear explanation. Mike Moritko ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert L. Beaubien To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 12:42 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Futaba 2.4 7 Channel Receiver I figured I should clarify what that means for you. Because you are using a 9ZAP, failsafe is not supported at all by the radio in PPM mode so you only have failsafe (set in the receiver) for channel 3 with hold on the remaining channels even if you use the 8-channel receiver. Additionally, your radio is only designed to output 1024 resolution, if you use the 8-channel receiver, the conversion process to 2048 resolution will not double what the radio outputs, though it will improve. Real world, I doubt you would see any difference between the 2. Hope that helps. - Robert Beaubien - NSRCA, District 7 Webmaster - "No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced." From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Robert L. Beaubien Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 10:29 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Futaba 2.4 7 Channel Receiver The 8- and 14- (and upcoming 10-) channel receivers all are 2048 bit resolution. The 4-, 6-, and 7- channnel receivers are all 1024 resolution. The other difference is the 8-, 10-, and 14-channel receiver all support all channel failsafe. The rest only support channel 3 failsafe and hold on the rest of the channels. - Robert Beaubien - NSRCA, District 7 Webmaster - "No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced." From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of MKMSG Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 10:17 AM To: NSRCA Discussion List Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Futaba 2.4 7 Channel Receiver Outside of the number of channels, is there any appreciable performance difference between the Futaba 2.4 gig 8 channel receiver and the 2.4 gig 7 channel receiver? I have the 8 channel 2.4 module in my 9 ZAP. It has a very small micro switch which must be moved whenever I want to use a receiver less than 8 channels. Since I fly some indoor using the Futaba 4 channel 2.4 receiver, that switch does get a workout. However, it doesn't look like it was built to be repeately moved back and forth like a receiver on/off switch and I fear it will eventually fail. If I use the 7 channel receiver in my 2 meter ships, the problem goes away since the switch would be able to remain in the 7 channel position forever. Any feedback would be appreciated. Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drmikedds at sbcglobal.net Sun Mar 15 10:08:04 2009 From: drmikedds at sbcglobal.net (michael s harrison) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 18:08:04 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? In-Reply-To: <7716C876A7EF4E76BCD9822586AA5660@Sanity> References: <404DFD2C1D4B4F3DA252AB6D72D71F8D@UncleJasPC> <7716C876A7EF4E76BCD9822586AA5660@Sanity> Message-ID: <005701c9a598$f9100b00$eb302100$@net> Jason, The quality of epoxy is very important because of heat and soluability issues. The 5 and 30 minute epoxies are a poor choice because they will not hold up to heat or soluables. They will become rubbery and absorb fuels. Consider the better laminating epoxies. The best off the shelf is probably Z-poxy or equivilant. Others are better still, but become costly because of quantity purchase requirements. Also, for best results do not thin but put on and wipe very thin, do a couple of coats for longevity and integrity. -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hester Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 11:00 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Just mix some in a cup, and then pour in a little less than that much in acetone. Stir and serve at room temp.....LOL BTW since the acetone slows down the curing process, 5 minute works fine too. Cool looking plane BTW, this the 120 size? -Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "J Shu" To: "NSRCA" Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 3:14 AM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? >I want to add another layer of sealer to the firewall and tunnel on my >plane... what's the best way to do it with epoxy? I've got 30 > minute but not sure how to thin it to seal it. > > Regards, > Jason > www.shulmanaviation.com > www.composite-arf.com > > > > > E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.1.440) > Database version: 6.11960 > http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.1.440) > Database version: 6.11960 > http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ > E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.1.440) Database version: 6.11960 http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From robcase1 at cox.net Sun Mar 15 16:31:56 2009 From: robcase1 at cox.net (Robert & Casey Green) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 00:31:56 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? References: <404DFD2C1D4B4F3DA252AB6D72D71F8D@UncleJasPC><7716C876A7EF4E76BCD9822586AA5660@Sanity> <005701c9a598$f9100b00$eb302100$@net> Message-ID: <006401c9a5ce$9b01eb10$6401a8c0@DOWNSTAIRS> or better yet go e-power ----- Original Message ----- From: "michael s harrison" To: "'General pattern discussion'" Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 1:07 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? > Jason, > The quality of epoxy is very important because of heat and soluability > issues. The 5 and 30 minute epoxies are a poor choice because they will > not > hold up to heat or soluables. They will become rubbery and absorb fuels. > Consider the better laminating epoxies. The best off the shelf is > probably > Z-poxy or equivilant. Others are better still, but become costly because > of > quantity purchase requirements. Also, for best results do not thin but put > on and wipe very thin, do a couple of coats for longevity and integrity. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hester > Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 11:00 AM > To: General pattern discussion > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? > > Just mix some in a cup, and then pour in a little less than that much in > acetone. Stir and serve at room temp.....LOL BTW since the acetone slows > down the curing process, 5 minute works fine too. > > Cool looking plane BTW, this the 120 size? > > -Mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J Shu" > To: "NSRCA" > Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 3:14 AM > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? > > >>I want to add another layer of sealer to the firewall and tunnel on my >>plane... what's the best way to do it with epoxy? I've got 30 >> minute but not sure how to thin it to seal it. >> >> Regards, >> Jason >> www.shulmanaviation.com >> www.composite-arf.com >> >> >> >> >> E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.1.440) >> Database version: 6.11960 >> http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ >> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> >> >> E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.1.440) >> Database version: 6.11960 >> http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ >> > > > > > > E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.1.440) > Database version: 6.11960 > http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > From wgalligan at att.net Sun Mar 15 17:51:39 2009 From: wgalligan at att.net (Wayne Galligan) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 01:51:39 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? In-Reply-To: <006401c9a5ce$9b01eb10$6401a8c0@DOWNSTAIRS> References: <404DFD2C1D4B4F3DA252AB6D72D71F8D@UncleJasPC><7716C876A7EF4E76BCD9822586AA5660@Sanity><005701c9a598$f9100b00$eb302100$@net> <006401c9a5ce$9b01eb10$6401a8c0@DOWNSTAIRS> Message-ID: <3F8F68A3BE6745DFBB3FB02E1F8F92BE@WaynePC> How do you thin ion proofing? Wayne ----- From: "Robert & Casey Green" To: "General pattern discussion" Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 7:31 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? > or better yet go e-power > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "michael s harrison" > To: "'General pattern discussion'" > Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 1:07 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? > > >> Jason, >> The quality of epoxy is very important because of heat and soluability >> issues. The 5 and 30 minute epoxies are a poor choice because they will >> not >> hold up to heat or soluables. They will become rubbery and absorb fuels. >> Consider the better laminating epoxies. The best off the shelf is >> probably >> Z-poxy or equivilant. Others are better still, but become costly because >> of >> quantity purchase requirements. Also, for best results do not thin but >> put >> on and wipe very thin, do a couple of coats for longevity and integrity. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org >> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Mike >> Hester >> Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 11:00 AM >> To: General pattern discussion >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? >> >> Just mix some in a cup, and then pour in a little less than that much in >> acetone. Stir and serve at room temp.....LOL BTW since the acetone slows >> down the curing process, 5 minute works fine too. >> >> Cool looking plane BTW, this the 120 size? >> >> -Mike >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "J Shu" >> To: "NSRCA" >> Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 3:14 AM >> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? >> >> >>>I want to add another layer of sealer to the firewall and tunnel on my >>>plane... what's the best way to do it with epoxy? I've got 30 >>> minute but not sure how to thin it to seal it. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Jason >>> www.shulmanaviation.com >>> www.composite-arf.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.1.440) >>> Database version: 6.11960 >>> http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ >>> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ---- >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>> >>> >>> >>> E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.1.440) >>> Database version: 6.11960 >>> http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.1.440) >> Database version: 6.11960 >> http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 15 17:56:14 2009 From: homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com (Chris Fitzsimmons) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 01:56:14 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Message-ID: <56958.96420.qm@web33001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Fire extinguishar Sent from my iPhone On Mar 15, 2009, at 6:50 PM, "Wayne Galligan" wrote: How do you thin ion proofing? Wayne ----- From: "Robert & Casey Green" To: "General pattern discussion" Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 7:31 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? or better yet go e-power ----- Original Message ----- From: "michael s harrison" To: "'General pattern discussion'" Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 1:07 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Jason, The quality of epoxy is very important because of heat and soluability issues. The 5 and 30 minute epoxies are a poor choice because they will not hold up to heat or soluables. They will become rubbery and absorb fuels. Consider the better laminating epoxies. The best off the shelf is probably Z-poxy or equivilant. Others are better still, but become costly because of quantity purchase requirements. Also, for best results do not thin but put on and wipe very thin, do a couple of coats for longevity and integrity. -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hester Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 11:00 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Just mix some in a cup, and then pour in a little less than that much in acetone. Stir and serve at room temp.....LOL BTW since the acetone slows down the curing process, 5 minute works fine too. Cool looking plane BTW, this the 120 size? -Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "J Shu" To: "NSRCA" Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 3:14 AM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? I want to add another layer of sealer to the firewall and tunnel on my plane... what's the best way to do it with epoxy? I've got 30 minute but not sure how to thin it to seal it. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.1.440) Database version: 6.11960 http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.1.440) Database version: 6.11960 http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.1.440) Database version: 6.11960 http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From pamrich47 at hotmail.com Sun Mar 15 19:33:35 2009 From: pamrich47 at hotmail.com (Richard Strickland) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 03:33:35 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? In-Reply-To: <286212.91671.qm@web111306.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <286212.91671.qm@web111306.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 00:36:57 -0700 From: patternrules at yahoo.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Night owls on both coast and one in the middle --- On Sun, 3/15/09, J Shu wrote: From: J Shu Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Sunday, March 15, 2009, 3:32 AM This is the tunnel area, then of course the firewall area. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? Groups: Create an online spot for your favorite groups to meet. http://windowslive.com/online/groups?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_groups_032009 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From love2flypattern at yahoo.com Sun Mar 15 21:48:32 2009 From: love2flypattern at yahoo.com (Jarvis Johnson) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 05:48:32 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <43130.82556.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hey, Jason What airplane is that ? --- On Sun, 3/15/09, J Shu wrote: From: J Shu Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Sunday, March 15, 2009, 12:32 AM This is the tunnel area, then of course the firewall area. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gfowler at raytheon.com Mon Mar 16 05:24:20 2009 From: gfowler at raytheon.com (Gray E Fowler) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 13:24:20 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? In-Reply-To: <404DFD2C1D4B4F3DA252AB6D72D71F8D@UncleJasPC> Message-ID: Fast curing epoxy adhesives such as the 30 minute are a bad initial choice. I realize that thousands have used it in these applications, but that still does not make it a good choice. The non reactive components in the fast epoxy plasticize with age and methanol and nitro will seriously degrade the stuff. Using one of the thinner slower curing laminating resins will require less solvent, if any and provide a much longer lasting barrier. Any solvent added to an epoxy needs to evaporate completely or you will created a problem. Denatured alcohol (ethanol) evaporates very slowly. Cutting a fast cure epoxy with a slow evaporating solvent is a recipe for trapping alot of solvent, making the chemical resistant even worse. Methanol evaporates much faster and epoxy is much more soluable in methanol. Be very careful using ketone solvents (acetone, MEK) or aromatics (Toluene, Xylene) because many kit manufacturers use styrofoam as a core material that will be destroyed in seconds with all solvents except the alcohols. SO! 1. Use a thin slower cure laminating resin 2. Use Acetone, MEK or Laquer thinner 3. NO puddles, super thin coat 4. Alcohols if you have a styrofoam core 5. rule #3 again 6. If you only need the plane to last 1 year, then use 15 minute epoxy and do not worry..it will last 1 year or so. Gray Fowler Senior Principal Chemical Engineer Radomes and Specialty Apertures Technical Staff Composites Engineering Raytheon "J Shu" Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 03/15/2009 02:15 AM Please respond to General pattern discussion To "NSRCA" cc Subject [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? I want to add another layer of sealer to the firewall and tunnel on my plane... what's the best way to do it with epoxy? I've got 30 minute but not sure how to thin it to seal it. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com [attachment "IMG_4498 (500 x 299).jpg" deleted by Gray E Fowler/US/Raytheon] _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From simestd at netexpress.com Mon Mar 16 06:54:21 2009 From: simestd at netexpress.com (Tom Simes) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 14:54:21 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? In-Reply-To: References: <404DFD2C1D4B4F3DA252AB6D72D71F8D@UncleJasPC> Message-ID: <20090316065414.744feb73.simestd@netexpress.com> On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 08:23:32 -0500 Gray E Fowler wrote: > SO! > > 1. Use a thin slower cure laminating resin I always enjoy your informative posts on composites and adhesives Gray, thanks for taking the time to educate! With respect to laminating resin, Is there anything you'd recommend with an easy mixing ratio (no pumps) that's sold in small quantities and has a couple year shelf life? Tom ====================================================================== "Z-80 system stack overflow. Shut 'er down Scotty, the system's sucking mud" - Error message on TRS 80 Model-16B Tom Simes simestd at netexpress.com ====================================================================== From vanputte at cox.net Mon Mar 16 07:02:06 2009 From: vanputte at cox.net (Ron Van Putte) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 15:02:06 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Rhett Miller Jr Message-ID: <14CB16A1-2C14-485E-A8EC-87D05EE522F6@cox.net> I just received the following from Rhett Miller III, who was a 4-time Nats winner in the 1970s, regarding his father, Rhett Miller, Jr. Ron: I hope all is well with you and your family. I believe you had been corresponding recently with Daddy regarding the NSRCA. I just wanted to let you know that Daddy passed away on 3/3/09. He had been battling cancer since last year. He had been very unhappy since Mother passed away in 2007 and just didn't have the fight to go on. Some of my best memories of Daddy will always be our times flying RC. It was a very happy time in all of our lives and I will always have very fond memories of you and the many others in the RC community. Rhett A. Miller III 6427 Deloache Ave. Dallas, TX 75225 214-676-0366 rhett_miller at sbcglobal.net From jnhiller at earthlink.net Mon Mar 16 07:14:46 2009 From: jnhiller at earthlink.net (J N Hiller) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 15:14:46 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you for the very informative information. I have never used epoxy for fuel proofing. I've used Polyester finishing resin and K&B epoxy paint until I ran out and recently Formula-U Polyurethane paint. What are your thoughts on these alternate materials? I find fuel proof compromising gouges are more visible using colored paint rather than a clear coating. Jim Hiller -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Gray E Fowler Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 6:24 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Fast curing epoxy adhesives such as the 30 minute are a bad initial choice. I realize that thousands have used it in these applications, but that still does not make it a good choice. The non reactive components in the fast epoxy plasticize with age and methanol and nitro will seriously degrade the stuff. Using one of the thinner slower curing laminating resins will require less solvent, if any and provide a much longer lasting barrier. Any solvent added to an epoxy needs to evaporate completely or you will created a problem. Denatured alcohol (ethanol) evaporates very slowly. Cutting a fast cure epoxy with a slow evaporating solvent is a recipe for trapping alot of solvent, making the chemical resistant even worse. Methanol evaporates much faster and epoxy is much more soluable in methanol. Be very careful using ketone solvents (acetone, MEK) or aromatics (Toluene, Xylene) because many kit manufacturers use styrofoam as a core material that will be destroyed in seconds with all solvents except the alcohols. SO! 1. Use a thin slower cure laminating resin 2. Use Acetone, MEK or Laquer thinner 3. NO puddles, super thin coat 4. Alcohols if you have a styrofoam core 5. rule #3 again 6. If you only need the plane to last 1 year, then use 15 minute epoxy and do not worry..it will last 1 year or so. Gray Fowler Senior Principal Chemical Engineer Radomes and Specialty Apertures Technical Staff Composites Engineering Raytheon "J Shu" Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 03/15/2009 02:15 AM Please respond to General pattern discussion To "NSRCA" cc Subject [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? I want to add another layer of sealer to the firewall and tunnel on my plane... what's the best way to do it with epoxy? I've got 30 minute but not sure how to thin it to seal it. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com [attachment "IMG_4498 (500 x 299).jpg" deleted by Gray E Fowler/US/Raytheon] _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gfowler at raytheon.com Mon Mar 16 07:34:56 2009 From: gfowler at raytheon.com (Gray E Fowler) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 15:34:56 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? In-Reply-To: <20090316065414.744feb73.simestd@netexpress.com> Message-ID: Tom Most epoxies need to be weighed, not dispensed volumetrically. Volume changes with temperature and the chemicals used to absorb the mix ratio errors associated with volume mixing do work...but kind of defeat what we want as properties for our airplanes...such as max Tg and chemical resistance. West Systems and Fiber Glast both have good laminating resins by the quart, which in our world is a bunch, but stored in airtight containers it will last for many years. Buying these epoxies is like buying a pint of car paint to add that 4th color accent to your plane's artistic design. Once you have it, you have it for life. I do not have any product numbers in mind as I buy the actual raw materials for Aeroslave so I can formuate a resin system that meets our plane manufacturing needs as opposed to being semi-fool proof for the masses. But there are many good products available for our applications. Me not being happy with them (from an AeroSlave perspective) as they are purchased is another issue. Gray Fowler Senior Principal Chemical Engineer Radomes and Specialty Apertures Technical Staff Composites Engineering Raytheon Tom Simes Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 03/16/2009 09:55 AM Please respond to General pattern discussion To General pattern discussion cc Subject Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 08:23:32 -0500 Gray E Fowler wrote: > SO! > > 1. Use a thin slower cure laminating resin I always enjoy your informative posts on composites and adhesives Gray, thanks for taking the time to educate! With respect to laminating resin, Is there anything you'd recommend with an easy mixing ratio (no pumps) that's sold in small quantities and has a couple year shelf life? Tom ====================================================================== "Z-80 system stack overflow. Shut 'er down Scotty, the system's sucking mud" - Error message on TRS 80 Model-16B Tom Simes simestd at netexpress.com ====================================================================== _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gfowler at raytheon.com Mon Mar 16 07:44:52 2009 From: gfowler at raytheon.com (Gray E Fowler) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 15:44:52 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jim Polyesters will not cure when in contact with oxygen, leaving a sticky surface. If your surface is not sticky after applying-curing polyester then you are using a "true" polyester finishing resin, which is fine, BUT look out because to stop the oxygen inhibition polyester "finishing" resins add 5% wax, which floats to the surface and blocks the oxygen. I say lookout, because any future bonding to this area will be extremely poor. If you are not bonding to an area saturated with this resin you are fine. K&B paint was fine, just a regular epoxy cured with a polyamide, meaning the mixture needs to be "inducted" prior to use, that is mixed up and then sits in a mass for a t least 15 minutes (read the instructions) or the polyimide will slightly separate giving you a sticky surface. Unfamiliar Formula U, but Concept clear works very well. I always clear coat with Concept 2021..easy, lightweight and more durable. My entire engine area is sealed with Concept clear or laminating epoxy. Gray Fowler Senior Principal Chemical Engineer Radomes and Specialty Apertures Technical Staff Composites Engineering Raytheon "J N Hiller" Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 03/16/2009 10:16 AM Please respond to General pattern discussion To "General pattern discussion" cc Subject Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Thank you for the very informative information. I have never used epoxy for fuel proofing. I've used Polyester finishing resin and K&B epoxy paint until I ran out and recently Formula-U Polyurethane paint. What are your thoughts on these alternate materials? I find fuel proof compromising gouges are more visible using colored paint rather than a clear coating. Jim Hiller -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Gray E Fowler Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 6:24 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Fast curing epoxy adhesives such as the 30 minute are a bad initial choice. I realize that thousands have used it in these applications, but that still does not make it a good choice. The non reactive components in the fast epoxy plasticize with age and methanol and nitro will seriously degrade the stuff. Using one of the thinner slower curing laminating resins will require less solvent, if any and provide a much longer lasting barrier. Any solvent added to an epoxy needs to evaporate completely or you will created a problem. Denatured alcohol (ethanol) evaporates very slowly. Cutting a fast cure epoxy with a slow evaporating solvent is a recipe for trapping alot of solvent, making the chemical resistant even worse. Methanol evaporates much faster and epoxy is much more soluable in methanol. Be very careful using ketone solvents (acetone, MEK) or aromatics (Toluene, Xylene) because many kit manufacturers use styrofoam as a core material that will be destroyed in seconds with all solvents except the alcohols. SO! 1. Use a thin slower cure laminating resin 2. Use Acetone, MEK or Laquer thinner 3. NO puddles, super thin coat 4. Alcohols if you have a styrofoam core 5. rule #3 again 6. If you only need the plane to last 1 year, then use 15 minute epoxy and do not worry..it will last 1 year or so. Gray Fowler Senior Principal Chemical Engineer Radomes and Specialty Apertures Technical Staff Composites Engineering Raytheon "J Shu" Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 03/15/2009 02:15 AM Please respond to General pattern discussion To "NSRCA" cc Subject [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? I want to add another layer of sealer to the firewall and tunnel on my plane... what's the best way to do it with epoxy? I've got 30 minute but not sure how to thin it to seal it. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com [attachment "IMG_4498 (500 x 299).jpg" deleted by Gray E Fowler/US/Raytheon] _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mups1953 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 16 08:25:13 2009 From: mups1953 at yahoo.com (mike mueller) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 16:25:13 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Rhett Miller Jr In-Reply-To: <14CB16A1-2C14-485E-A8EC-87D05EE522F6@cox.net> Message-ID: <790926.97631.qm@web51005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> ?Thanks for the forward Ron. ?Men like Rhett Jr?is an? true example?of many?great fathers who were responsible for nurturing our interest in this hobby. He was a?genuine southern gentleman and responsible for starting the NSRCA as our first President. No father has ever been?prouder than he of his son?and his many accomplishments. ?We lost a very good man. God bless Rhett the 3rd and his family. Mike Mueller --- On Mon, 3/16/09, Ron Van Putte wrote: From: Ron Van Putte Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Rhett Miller Jr To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Monday, March 16, 2009, 10:02 AM I just received the following from Rhett Miller III, who was a 4-time Nats winner in the 1970s, regarding his father, Rhett Miller, Jr. Ron: I hope all is well with you and your family. I believe you had been corresponding recently with Daddy regarding the NSRCA. I just wanted to let you know that Daddy passed away on 3/3/09. He had been battling cancer since last year. He had been very unhappy since Mother passed away in 2007 and just didn't have the fight to go on. Some of my best memories of Daddy will always be our times flying RC. It was a very happy time in all of our lives and I will always have very fond memories of you and the many others in the RC community. Rhett A. Miller III 6427 Deloache Ave. Dallas, TX 75225 214-676-0366 rhett_miller at sbcglobal.net _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jshulman at cfl.rr.com Mon Mar 16 08:46:07 2009 From: jshulman at cfl.rr.com (J Shu) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 16:46:07 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2CF20ECFE33F4689AB1D5018AE0C67C1@UncleJasPC> So much good info. I'm gonna use Finishing resin to seal the motor area. How bad of an idea would it to be the finishing resin to glue in the fiberglass horns into the wood surfaces? Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Gray E Fowler To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 11:44 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Jim Polyesters will not cure when in contact with oxygen, leaving a sticky surface. If your surface is not sticky after applying-curing polyester then you are using a "true" polyester finishing resin, which is fine, BUT look out because to stop the oxygen inhibition polyester "finishing" resins add 5% wax, which floats to the surface and blocks the oxygen. I say lookout, because any future bonding to this area will be extremely poor. If you are not bonding to an area saturated with this resin you are fine. K&B paint was fine, just a regular epoxy cured with a polyamide, meaning the mixture needs to be "inducted" prior to use, that is mixed up and then sits in a mass for a t least 15 minutes (read the instructions) or the polyimide will slightly separate giving you a sticky surface. Unfamiliar Formula U, but Concept clear works very well. I always clear coat with Concept 2021..easy, lightweight and more durable. My entire engine area is sealed with Concept clear or laminating epoxy. Gray Fowler Senior Principal Chemical Engineer Radomes and Specialty Apertures Technical Staff Composites Engineering Raytheon "J N Hiller" Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 03/16/2009 10:16 AM Please respond to General pattern discussion To "General pattern discussion" cc Subject Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Thank you for the very informative information. I have never used epoxy for fuel proofing. I've used Polyester finishing resin and K&B epoxy paint until I ran out and recently Formula-U Polyurethane paint. What are your thoughts on these alternate materials? I find fuel proof compromising gouges are more visible using colored paint rather than a clear coating. Jim Hiller -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Gray E Fowler Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 6:24 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Fast curing epoxy adhesives such as the 30 minute are a bad initial choice. I realize that thousands have used it in these applications, but that still does not make it a good choice. The non reactive components in the fast epoxy plasticize with age and methanol and nitro will seriously degrade the stuff. Using one of the thinner slower curing laminating resins will require less solvent, if any and provide a much longer lasting barrier. Any solvent added to an epoxy needs to evaporate completely or you will created a problem. Denatured alcohol (ethanol) evaporates very slowly. Cutting a fast cure epoxy with a slow evaporating solvent is a recipe for trapping alot of solvent, making the chemical resistant even worse. Methanol evaporates much faster and epoxy is much more soluable in methanol. Be very careful using ketone solvents (acetone, MEK) or aromatics (Toluene, Xylene) because many kit manufacturers use styrofoam as a core material that will be destroyed in seconds with all solvents except the alcohols. SO! 1. Use a thin slower cure laminating resin 2. Use Acetone, MEK or Laquer thinner 3. NO puddles, super thin coat 4. Alcohols if you have a styrofoam core 5. rule #3 again 6. If you only need the plane to last 1 year, then use 15 minute epoxy and do not worry..it will last 1 year or so. Gray Fowler Senior Principal Chemical Engineer Radomes and Specialty Apertures Technical Staff Composites Engineering Raytheon "J Shu" Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 03/15/2009 02:15 AM Please respond to General pattern discussion To "NSRCA" cc Subject [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? I want to add another layer of sealer to the firewall and tunnel on my plane... what's the best way to do it with epoxy? I've got 30 minute but not sure how to thin it to seal it. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com [attachment "IMG_4498 (500 x 299).jpg" deleted by Gray E Fowler/US/Raytheon] _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gfowler at raytheon.com Mon Mar 16 10:18:16 2009 From: gfowler at raytheon.com (Gray E Fowler) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 18:18:16 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? In-Reply-To: <2CF20ECFE33F4689AB1D5018AE0C67C1@UncleJasPC> Message-ID: Jason When you say finishing resin do mean epoxy or polyester? I do not understand your configuration of bonding the horns, but if the bond is the only thing holding the horns on, best use and adhesive. Laminating epoxies and all polyesters have low peel strength = bad bond characteristics. Horns will experience a cleave stress which is shear+peel, if there is any flex then lots of peel stress. A good adhesive has thousands PSI shear strength, but only 25 lbs of peel. Laminating resins peel = 0. Gray Fowler Senior Principal Chemical Engineer Radomes and Specialty Apertures Technical Staff Composites Engineering Raytheon "J Shu" Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 03/16/2009 11:46 AM Please respond to General pattern discussion To "General pattern discussion" cc Subject Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? So much good info. I'm gonna use Finishing resin to seal the motor area. How bad of an idea would it to be the finishing resin to glue in the fiberglass horns into the wood surfaces? Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Gray E Fowler To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 11:44 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Jim Polyesters will not cure when in contact with oxygen, leaving a sticky surface. If your surface is not sticky after applying-curing polyester then you are using a "true" polyester finishing resin, which is fine, BUT look out because to stop the oxygen inhibition polyester "finishing" resins add 5% wax, which floats to the surface and blocks the oxygen. I say lookout, because any future bonding to this area will be extremely poor. If you are not bonding to an area saturated with this resin you are fine. K&B paint was fine, just a regular epoxy cured with a polyamide, meaning the mixture needs to be "inducted" prior to use, that is mixed up and then sits in a mass for a t least 15 minutes (read the instructions) or the polyimide will slightly separate giving you a sticky surface. Unfamiliar Formula U, but Concept clear works very well. I always clear coat with Concept 2021..easy, lightweight and more durable. My entire engine area is sealed with Concept clear or laminating epoxy. Gray Fowler Senior Principal Chemical Engineer Radomes and Specialty Apertures Technical Staff Composites Engineering Raytheon "J N Hiller" Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 03/16/2009 10:16 AM Please respond to General pattern discussion To "General pattern discussion" cc Subject Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Thank you for the very informative information. I have never used epoxy for fuel proofing. I've used Polyester finishing resin and K&B epoxy paint until I ran out and recently Formula-U Polyurethane paint. What are your thoughts on these alternate materials? I find fuel proof compromising gouges are more visible using colored paint rather than a clear coating. Jim Hiller -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Gray E Fowler Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 6:24 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Fast curing epoxy adhesives such as the 30 minute are a bad initial choice. I realize that thousands have used it in these applications, but that still does not make it a good choice. The non reactive components in the fast epoxy plasticize with age and methanol and nitro will seriously degrade the stuff. Using one of the thinner slower curing laminating resins will require less solvent, if any and provide a much longer lasting barrier. Any solvent added to an epoxy needs to evaporate completely or you will created a problem. Denatured alcohol (ethanol) evaporates very slowly. Cutting a fast cure epoxy with a slow evaporating solvent is a recipe for trapping alot of solvent, making the chemical resistant even worse. Methanol evaporates much faster and epoxy is much more soluable in methanol. Be very careful using ketone solvents (acetone, MEK) or aromatics (Toluene, Xylene) because many kit manufacturers use styrofoam as a core material that will be destroyed in seconds with all solvents except the alcohols. SO! 1. Use a thin slower cure laminating resin 2. Use Acetone, MEK or Laquer thinner 3. NO puddles, super thin coat 4. Alcohols if you have a styrofoam core 5. rule #3 again 6. If you only need the plane to last 1 year, then use 15 minute epoxy and do not worry..it will last 1 year or so. Gray Fowler Senior Principal Chemical Engineer Radomes and Specialty Apertures Technical Staff Composites Engineering Raytheon "J Shu" Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 03/15/2009 02:15 AM Please respond to General pattern discussion To "NSRCA" cc Subject [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? I want to add another layer of sealer to the firewall and tunnel on my plane... what's the best way to do it with epoxy? I've got 30 minute but not sure how to thin it to seal it. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com [attachment "IMG_4498 (500 x 299).jpg" deleted by Gray E Fowler/US/Raytheon] _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jshulman at cfl.rr.com Mon Mar 16 10:24:30 2009 From: jshulman at cfl.rr.com (J Shu) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 18:24:30 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6494E94D94F5435F881CA36D22E88F8A@UncleJasPC> I have Z-Poxy 30 min and Finishing resin Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Gray E Fowler To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 2:17 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Jason When you say finishing resin do mean epoxy or polyester? I do not understand your configuration of bonding the horns, but if the bond is the only thing holding the horns on, best use and adhesive. Laminating epoxies and all polyesters have low peel strength = bad bond characteristics. Horns will experience a cleave stress which is shear+peel, if there is any flex then lots of peel stress. A good adhesive has thousands PSI shear strength, but only 25 lbs of peel. Laminating resins peel = 0. Gray Fowler Senior Principal Chemical Engineer Radomes and Specialty Apertures Technical Staff Composites Engineering Raytheon "J Shu" Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 03/16/2009 11:46 AM Please respond to General pattern discussion To "General pattern discussion" cc Subject Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? So much good info. I'm gonna use Finishing resin to seal the motor area. How bad of an idea would it to be the finishing resin to glue in the fiberglass horns into the wood surfaces? Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Gray E Fowler To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 11:44 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Jim Polyesters will not cure when in contact with oxygen, leaving a sticky surface. If your surface is not sticky after applying-curing polyester then you are using a "true" polyester finishing resin, which is fine, BUT look out because to stop the oxygen inhibition polyester "finishing" resins add 5% wax, which floats to the surface and blocks the oxygen. I say lookout, because any future bonding to this area will be extremely poor. If you are not bonding to an area saturated with this resin you are fine. K&B paint was fine, just a regular epoxy cured with a polyamide, meaning the mixture needs to be "inducted" prior to use, that is mixed up and then sits in a mass for a t least 15 minutes (read the instructions) or the polyimide will slightly separate giving you a sticky surface. Unfamiliar Formula U, but Concept clear works very well. I always clear coat with Concept 2021..easy, lightweight and more durable. My entire engine area is sealed with Concept clear or laminating epoxy. Gray Fowler Senior Principal Chemical Engineer Radomes and Specialty Apertures Technical Staff Composites Engineering Raytheon "J N Hiller" Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 03/16/2009 10:16 AM Please respond to General pattern discussion To "General pattern discussion" cc Subject Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Thank you for the very informative information. I have never used epoxy for fuel proofing. I've used Polyester finishing resin and K&B epoxy paint until I ran out and recently Formula-U Polyurethane paint. What are your thoughts on these alternate materials? I find fuel proof compromising gouges are more visible using colored paint rather than a clear coating. Jim Hiller -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Gray E Fowler Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 6:24 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Fast curing epoxy adhesives such as the 30 minute are a bad initial choice. I realize that thousands have used it in these applications, but that still does not make it a good choice. The non reactive components in the fast epoxy plasticize with age and methanol and nitro will seriously degrade the stuff. Using one of the thinner slower curing laminating resins will require less solvent, if any and provide a much longer lasting barrier. Any solvent added to an epoxy needs to evaporate completely or you will created a problem. Denatured alcohol (ethanol) evaporates very slowly. Cutting a fast cure epoxy with a slow evaporating solvent is a recipe for trapping alot of solvent, making the chemical resistant even worse. Methanol evaporates much faster and epoxy is much more soluable in methanol. Be very careful using ketone solvents (acetone, MEK) or aromatics (Toluene, Xylene) because many kit manufacturers use styrofoam as a core material that will be destroyed in seconds with all solvents except the alcohols. SO! 1. Use a thin slower cure laminating resin 2. Use Acetone, MEK or Laquer thinner 3. NO puddles, super thin coat 4. Alcohols if you have a styrofoam core 5. rule #3 again 6. If you only need the plane to last 1 year, then use 15 minute epoxy and do not worry..it will last 1 year or so. Gray Fowler Senior Principal Chemical Engineer Radomes and Specialty Apertures Technical Staff Composites Engineering Raytheon "J Shu" Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 03/15/2009 02:15 AM Please respond to General pattern discussion To "NSRCA" cc Subject [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? I want to add another layer of sealer to the firewall and tunnel on my plane... what's the best way to do it with epoxy? I've got 30 minute but not sure how to thin it to seal it. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com [attachment "IMG_4498 (500 x 299).jpg" deleted by Gray E Fowler/US/Raytheon] _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gfowler at raytheon.com Mon Mar 16 10:36:13 2009 From: gfowler at raytheon.com (Gray E Fowler) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 18:36:13 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? In-Reply-To: <6494E94D94F5435F881CA36D22E88F8A@UncleJasPC> Message-ID: Jason Use the finishing resin...if no styrofoam core issues, cut with acetone of MEK, both sold at Home Depot or Lowes. If the core is yellow-brown then that is a urethane ridgid foam and okay for acetone/MEK. Gray Fowler Senior Principal Chemical Engineer Radomes and Specialty Apertures Technical Staff Composites Engineering Raytheon "J Shu" Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 03/16/2009 01:25 PM Please respond to General pattern discussion To "General pattern discussion" cc Subject Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? I have Z-Poxy 30 min and Finishing resin Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Gray E Fowler To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 2:17 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Jason When you say finishing resin do mean epoxy or polyester? I do not understand your configuration of bonding the horns, but if the bond is the only thing holding the horns on, best use and adhesive. Laminating epoxies and all polyesters have low peel strength = bad bond characteristics. Horns will experience a cleave stress which is shear+peel, if there is any flex then lots of peel stress. A good adhesive has thousands PSI shear strength, but only 25 lbs of peel. Laminating resins peel = 0. Gray Fowler Senior Principal Chemical Engineer Radomes and Specialty Apertures Technical Staff Composites Engineering Raytheon "J Shu" Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 03/16/2009 11:46 AM Please respond to General pattern discussion To "General pattern discussion" cc Subject Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? So much good info. I'm gonna use Finishing resin to seal the motor area. How bad of an idea would it to be the finishing resin to glue in the fiberglass horns into the wood surfaces? Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Gray E Fowler To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 11:44 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Jim Polyesters will not cure when in contact with oxygen, leaving a sticky surface. If your surface is not sticky after applying-curing polyester then you are using a "true" polyester finishing resin, which is fine, BUT look out because to stop the oxygen inhibition polyester "finishing" resins add 5% wax, which floats to the surface and blocks the oxygen. I say lookout, because any future bonding to this area will be extremely poor. If you are not bonding to an area saturated with this resin you are fine. K&B paint was fine, just a regular epoxy cured with a polyamide, meaning the mixture needs to be "inducted" prior to use, that is mixed up and then sits in a mass for a t least 15 minutes (read the instructions) or the polyimide will slightly separate giving you a sticky surface. Unfamiliar Formula U, but Concept clear works very well. I always clear coat with Concept 2021..easy, lightweight and more durable. My entire engine area is sealed with Concept clear or laminating epoxy. Gray Fowler Senior Principal Chemical Engineer Radomes and Specialty Apertures Technical Staff Composites Engineering Raytheon "J N Hiller" Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 03/16/2009 10:16 AM Please respond to General pattern discussion To "General pattern discussion" cc Subject Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Thank you for the very informative information. I have never used epoxy for fuel proofing. I've used Polyester finishing resin and K&B epoxy paint until I ran out and recently Formula-U Polyurethane paint. What are your thoughts on these alternate materials? I find fuel proof compromising gouges are more visible using colored paint rather than a clear coating. Jim Hiller -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Gray E Fowler Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 6:24 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Fast curing epoxy adhesives such as the 30 minute are a bad initial choice. I realize that thousands have used it in these applications, but that still does not make it a good choice. The non reactive components in the fast epoxy plasticize with age and methanol and nitro will seriously degrade the stuff. Using one of the thinner slower curing laminating resins will require less solvent, if any and provide a much longer lasting barrier. Any solvent added to an epoxy needs to evaporate completely or you will created a problem. Denatured alcohol (ethanol) evaporates very slowly. Cutting a fast cure epoxy with a slow evaporating solvent is a recipe for trapping alot of solvent, making the chemical resistant even worse. Methanol evaporates much faster and epoxy is much more soluable in methanol. Be very careful using ketone solvents (acetone, MEK) or aromatics (Toluene, Xylene) because many kit manufacturers use styrofoam as a core material that will be destroyed in seconds with all solvents except the alcohols. SO! 1. Use a thin slower cure laminating resin 2. Use Acetone, MEK or Laquer thinner 3. NO puddles, super thin coat 4. Alcohols if you have a styrofoam core 5. rule #3 again 6. If you only need the plane to last 1 year, then use 15 minute epoxy and do not worry..it will last 1 year or so. Gray Fowler Senior Principal Chemical Engineer Radomes and Specialty Apertures Technical Staff Composites Engineering Raytheon "J Shu" Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 03/15/2009 02:15 AM Please respond to General pattern discussion To "NSRCA" cc Subject [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? I want to add another layer of sealer to the firewall and tunnel on my plane... what's the best way to do it with epoxy? I've got 30 minute but not sure how to thin it to seal it. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com [attachment "IMG_4498 (500 x 299).jpg" deleted by Gray E Fowler/US/Raytheon] _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jshulman at cfl.rr.com Mon Mar 16 10:45:10 2009 From: jshulman at cfl.rr.com (J Shu) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 18:45:10 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9926F70C13744F9F8FD8FBD441B2BD01@UncleJasPC> This is for the firewall and pipe tunnel. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Gray E Fowler To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Jason Use the finishing resin...if no styrofoam core issues, cut with acetone of MEK, both sold at Home Depot or Lowes. If the core is yellow-brown then that is a urethane ridgid foam and okay for acetone/MEK. Gray Fowler Senior Principal Chemical Engineer Radomes and Specialty Apertures Technical Staff Composites Engineering Raytheon "J Shu" Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 03/16/2009 01:25 PM Please respond to General pattern discussion To "General pattern discussion" cc Subject Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? I have Z-Poxy 30 min and Finishing resin Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Gray E Fowler To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 2:17 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Jason When you say finishing resin do mean epoxy or polyester? I do not understand your configuration of bonding the horns, but if the bond is the only thing holding the horns on, best use and adhesive. Laminating epoxies and all polyesters have low peel strength = bad bond characteristics. Horns will experience a cleave stress which is shear+peel, if there is any flex then lots of peel stress. A good adhesive has thousands PSI shear strength, but only 25 lbs of peel. Laminating resins peel = 0. Gray Fowler Senior Principal Chemical Engineer Radomes and Specialty Apertures Technical Staff Composites Engineering Raytheon "J Shu" Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 03/16/2009 11:46 AM Please respond to General pattern discussion To "General pattern discussion" cc Subject Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? So much good info. I'm gonna use Finishing resin to seal the motor area. How bad of an idea would it to be the finishing resin to glue in the fiberglass horns into the wood surfaces? Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Gray E Fowler To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 11:44 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Jim Polyesters will not cure when in contact with oxygen, leaving a sticky surface. If your surface is not sticky after applying-curing polyester then you are using a "true" polyester finishing resin, which is fine, BUT look out because to stop the oxygen inhibition polyester "finishing" resins add 5% wax, which floats to the surface and blocks the oxygen. I say lookout, because any future bonding to this area will be extremely poor. If you are not bonding to an area saturated with this resin you are fine. K&B paint was fine, just a regular epoxy cured with a polyamide, meaning the mixture needs to be "inducted" prior to use, that is mixed up and then sits in a mass for a t least 15 minutes (read the instructions) or the polyimide will slightly separate giving you a sticky surface. Unfamiliar Formula U, but Concept clear works very well. I always clear coat with Concept 2021..easy, lightweight and more durable. My entire engine area is sealed with Concept clear or laminating epoxy. Gray Fowler Senior Principal Chemical Engineer Radomes and Specialty Apertures Technical Staff Composites Engineering Raytheon "J N Hiller" Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 03/16/2009 10:16 AM Please respond to General pattern discussion To "General pattern discussion" cc Subject Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Thank you for the very informative information. I have never used epoxy for fuel proofing. I've used Polyester finishing resin and K&B epoxy paint until I ran out and recently Formula-U Polyurethane paint. What are your thoughts on these alternate materials? I find fuel proof compromising gouges are more visible using colored paint rather than a clear coating. Jim Hiller -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Gray E Fowler Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 6:24 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Fast curing epoxy adhesives such as the 30 minute are a bad initial choice. I realize that thousands have used it in these applications, but that still does not make it a good choice. The non reactive components in the fast epoxy plasticize with age and methanol and nitro will seriously degrade the stuff. Using one of the thinner slower curing laminating resins will require less solvent, if any and provide a much longer lasting barrier. Any solvent added to an epoxy needs to evaporate completely or you will created a problem. Denatured alcohol (ethanol) evaporates very slowly. Cutting a fast cure epoxy with a slow evaporating solvent is a recipe for trapping alot of solvent, making the chemical resistant even worse. Methanol evaporates much faster and epoxy is much more soluable in methanol. Be very careful using ketone solvents (acetone, MEK) or aromatics (Toluene, Xylene) because many kit manufacturers use styrofoam as a core material that will be destroyed in seconds with all solvents except the alcohols. SO! 1. Use a thin slower cure laminating resin 2. Use Acetone, MEK or Laquer thinner 3. NO puddles, super thin coat 4. Alcohols if you have a styrofoam core 5. rule #3 again 6. If you only need the plane to last 1 year, then use 15 minute epoxy and do not worry..it will last 1 year or so. Gray Fowler Senior Principal Chemical Engineer Radomes and Specialty Apertures Technical Staff Composites Engineering Raytheon "J Shu" Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 03/15/2009 02:15 AM Please respond to General pattern discussion To "NSRCA" cc Subject [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? I want to add another layer of sealer to the firewall and tunnel on my plane... what's the best way to do it with epoxy? I've got 30 minute but not sure how to thin it to seal it. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com [attachment "IMG_4498 (500 x 299).jpg" deleted by Gray E Fowler/US/Raytheon] _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patternlady at tds.net Mon Mar 16 10:51:32 2009 From: patternlady at tds.net (Linda A Carnes) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 18:51:32 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? In-Reply-To: <9926F70C13744F9F8FD8FBD441B2BD01@UncleJasPC> References: <9926F70C13744F9F8FD8FBD441B2BD01@UncleJasPC> Message-ID: I always use 5 minute epoxy, and add a few drops of denatured alcohol until I thinned it to the point I wanted, then painted it on. I use a heat gun to really make it soak and it is always dried in sort time. I have one plane with several years on it and no fuel-oil damage. Also make sure it gets into the holes for the fuel lines. Sincerely Linda A. Carnes _____ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of J Shu Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 2:45 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? This is for the firewall and pipe tunnel. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Gray E Fowler To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Jason Use the finishing resin...if no styrofoam core issues, cut with acetone of MEK, both sold at Home Depot or Lowes. If the core is yellow-brown then that is a urethane ridgid foam and okay for acetone/MEK. Gray Fowler Senior Principal Chemical Engineer Radomes and Specialty Apertures Technical Staff Composites Engineering Raytheon "J Shu" Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 03/16/2009 01:25 PM Please respond to General pattern discussion To "General pattern discussion" cc Subject Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? I have Z-Poxy 30 min and Finishing resin Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Gray E Fowler To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 2:17 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Jason When you say finishing resin do mean epoxy or polyester? I do not understand your configuration of bonding the horns, but if the bond is the only thing holding the horns on, best use and adhesive. Laminating epoxies and all polyesters have low peel strength = bad bond characteristics. Horns will experience a cleave stress which is shear+peel, if there is any flex then lots of peel stress. A good adhesive has thousands PSI shear strength, but only 25 lbs of peel. Laminating resins peel = 0. Gray Fowler Senior Principal Chemical Engineer Radomes and Specialty Apertures Technical Staff Composites Engineering Raytheon "J Shu" Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 03/16/2009 11:46 AM Please respond to General pattern discussion To "General pattern discussion" cc Subject Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? So much good info. I'm gonna use Finishing resin to seal the motor area. How bad of an idea would it to be the finishing resin to glue in the fiberglass horns into the wood surfaces? Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Gray E Fowler To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 11:44 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Jim Polyesters will not cure when in contact with oxygen, leaving a sticky surface. If your surface is not sticky after applying-curing polyester then you are using a "true" polyester finishing resin, which is fine, BUT look out because to stop the oxygen inhibition polyester "finishing" resins add 5% wax, which floats to the surface and blocks the oxygen. I say lookout, because any future bonding to this area will be extremely poor. If you are not bonding to an area saturated with this resin you are fine. K&B paint was fine, just a regular epoxy cured with a polyamide, meaning the mixture needs to be "inducted" prior to use, that is mixed up and then sits in a mass for a t least 15 minutes (read the instructions) or the polyimide will slightly separate giving you a sticky surface. Unfamiliar Formula U, but Concept clear works very well. I always clear coat with Concept 2021..easy, lightweight and more durable. My entire engine area is sealed with Concept clear or laminating epoxy. Gray Fowler Senior Principal Chemical Engineer Radomes and Specialty Apertures Technical Staff Composites Engineering Raytheon "J N Hiller" Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 03/16/2009 10:16 AM Please respond to General pattern discussion To "General pattern discussion" cc Subject Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Thank you for the very informative information. I have never used epoxy for fuel proofing. I've used Polyester finishing resin and K&B epoxy paint until I ran out and recently Formula-U Polyurethane paint. What are your thoughts on these alternate materials? I find fuel proof compromising gouges are more visible using colored paint rather than a clear coating. Jim Hiller -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Gray E Fowler Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 6:24 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Fast curing epoxy adhesives such as the 30 minute are a bad initial choice. I realize that thousands have used it in these applications, but that still does not make it a good choice. The non reactive components in the fast epoxy plasticize with age and methanol and nitro will seriously degrade the stuff. Using one of the thinner slower curing laminating resins will require less solvent, if any and provide a much longer lasting barrier. Any solvent added to an epoxy needs to evaporate completely or you will created a problem. Denatured alcohol (ethanol) evaporates very slowly. Cutting a fast cure epoxy with a slow evaporating solvent is a recipe for trapping alot of solvent, making the chemical resistant even worse. Methanol evaporates much faster and epoxy is much more soluable in methanol. Be very careful using ketone solvents (acetone, MEK) or aromatics (Toluene, Xylene) because many kit manufacturers use styrofoam as a core material that will be destroyed in seconds with all solvents except the alcohols. SO! 1. Use a thin slower cure laminating resin 2. Use Acetone, MEK or Laquer thinner 3. NO puddles, super thin coat 4. Alcohols if you have a styrofoam core 5. rule #3 again 6. If you only need the plane to last 1 year, then use 15 minute epoxy and do not worry..it will last 1 year or so. Gray Fowler Senior Principal Chemical Engineer Radomes and Specialty Apertures Technical Staff Composites Engineering Raytheon "J Shu" Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 03/15/2009 02:15 AM Please respond to General pattern discussion To "NSRCA" cc Subject [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? I want to add another layer of sealer to the firewall and tunnel on my plane... what's the best way to do it with epoxy? I've got 30 minute but not sure how to thin it to seal it. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com [attachment "IMG_4498 (500 x 299).jpg" deleted by Gray E Fowler/US/Raytheon] _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion____________________ ___________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion____________________ ___________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billglaze at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 16 11:00:49 2009 From: billglaze at bellsouth.net (billglaze) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 19:00:49 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? References: <9926F70C13744F9F8FD8FBD441B2BD01@UncleJasPC> Message-ID: <003e01c9a669$8142b7e0$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> My exact experience also. Just a few drops per ounce of mix, (proportion, not necessarily the amount mixed) stirred very well to good brushing consistency, then put on without delay. I've also used Fiberglas Resin thinned with a few drops of Acetone or MEK, and see little difference in the finished product over the long haul. Big thing, (at least for me) is don't over-thin. Bill Glaze ----- Original Message ----- From: Linda A Carnes To: 'General pattern discussion' Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 2:51 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? I always use 5 minute epoxy, and add a few drops of denatured alcohol until I thinned it to the point I wanted, then painted it on. I use a heat gun to really make it soak and it is always dried in sort time. I have one plane with several years on it and no fuel-oil damage. Also make sure it gets into the holes for the fuel lines. Sincerely Linda A. Carnes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of J Shu Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 2:45 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? This is for the firewall and pipe tunnel. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Gray E Fowler To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Jason Use the finishing resin...if no styrofoam core issues, cut with acetone of MEK, both sold at Home Depot or Lowes. If the core is yellow-brown then that is a urethane ridgid foam and okay for acetone/MEK. Gray Fowler Senior Principal Chemical Engineer Radomes and Specialty Apertures Technical Staff Composites Engineering Raytheon "J Shu" Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 03/16/2009 01:25 PM Please respond to General pattern discussion To "General pattern discussion" cc Subject Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? I have Z-Poxy 30 min and Finishing resin Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Gray E Fowler To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 2:17 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Jason When you say finishing resin do mean epoxy or polyester? I do not understand your configuration of bonding the horns, but if the bond is the only thing holding the horns on, best use and adhesive. Laminating epoxies and all polyesters have low peel strength = bad bond characteristics. Horns will experience a cleave stress which is shear+peel, if there is any flex then lots of peel stress. A good adhesive has thousands PSI shear strength, but only 25 lbs of peel. Laminating resins peel = 0. Gray Fowler Senior Principal Chemical Engineer Radomes and Specialty Apertures Technical Staff Composites Engineering Raytheon "J Shu" Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 03/16/2009 11:46 AM Please respond to General pattern discussion To "General pattern discussion" cc Subject Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? So much good info. I'm gonna use Finishing resin to seal the motor area. How bad of an idea would it to be the finishing resin to glue in the fiberglass horns into the wood surfaces? Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Gray E Fowler To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 11:44 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Jim Polyesters will not cure when in contact with oxygen, leaving a sticky surface. If your surface is not sticky after applying-curing polyester then you are using a "true" polyester finishing resin, which is fine, BUT look out because to stop the oxygen inhibition polyester "finishing" resins add 5% wax, which floats to the surface and blocks the oxygen. I say lookout, because any future bonding to this area will be extremely poor. If you are not bonding to an area saturated with this resin you are fine. K&B paint was fine, just a regular epoxy cured with a polyamide, meaning the mixture needs to be "inducted" prior to use, that is mixed up and then sits in a mass for a t least 15 minutes (read the instructions) or the polyimide will slightly separate giving you a sticky surface. Unfamiliar Formula U, but Concept clear works very well. I always clear coat with Concept 2021..easy, lightweight and more durable. My entire engine area is sealed with Concept clear or laminating epoxy. Gray Fowler Senior Principal Chemical Engineer Radomes and Specialty Apertures Technical Staff Composites Engineering Raytheon "J N Hiller" Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 03/16/2009 10:16 AM Please respond to General pattern discussion To "General pattern discussion" cc Subject Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Thank you for the very informative information. I have never used epoxy for fuel proofing. I've used Polyester finishing resin and K&B epoxy paint until I ran out and recently Formula-U Polyurethane paint. What are your thoughts on these alternate materials? I find fuel proof compromising gouges are more visible using colored paint rather than a clear coating. Jim Hiller -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Gray E Fowler Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 6:24 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? Fast curing epoxy adhesives such as the 30 minute are a bad initial choice. I realize that thousands have used it in these applications, but that still does not make it a good choice. The non reactive components in the fast epoxy plasticize with age and methanol and nitro will seriously degrade the stuff. Using one of the thinner slower curing laminating resins will require less solvent, if any and provide a much longer lasting barrier. Any solvent added to an epoxy needs to evaporate completely or you will created a problem. Denatured alcohol (ethanol) evaporates very slowly. Cutting a fast cure epoxy with a slow evaporating solvent is a recipe for trapping alot of solvent, making the chemical resistant even worse. Methanol evaporates much faster and epoxy is much more soluable in methanol. Be very careful using ketone solvents (acetone, MEK) or aromatics (Toluene, Xylene) because many kit manufacturers use styrofoam as a core material that will be destroyed in seconds with all solvents except the alcohols. SO! 1. Use a thin slower cure laminating resin 2. Use Acetone, MEK or Laquer thinner 3. NO puddles, super thin coat 4. Alcohols if you have a styrofoam core 5. rule #3 again 6. If you only need the plane to last 1 year, then use 15 minute epoxy and do not worry..it will last 1 year or so. Gray Fowler Senior Principal Chemical Engineer Radomes and Specialty Apertures Technical Staff Composites Engineering Raytheon "J Shu" Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 03/15/2009 02:15 AM Please respond to General pattern discussion To "NSRCA" cc Subject [NSRCA-discussion] thinning epoxy, how? I want to add another layer of sealer to the firewall and tunnel on my plane... what's the best way to do it with epoxy? I've got 30 minute but not sure how to thin it to seal it. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com [attachment "IMG_4498 (500 x 299).jpg" deleted by Gray E Fowler/US/Raytheon] _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffghughes at comcast.net Mon Mar 16 15:22:08 2009 From: jeffghughes at comcast.net (jeffghughes at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 23:22:08 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Old Kfactors In-Reply-To: <2CF20ECFE33F4689AB1D5018AE0C67C1@UncleJasPC> Message-ID: <1415020012.619441237245725294.JavaMail.root@sz0016a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I joined the chat list to ask if anyone wants a bunch of old K factors. I've cleaned out my work shop and have K factors from 1996 to present. I hate to throw them out, so if anyone wants them, their yours for postage.? Jeff? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlkonn at hotmail.com Mon Mar 16 15:45:20 2009 From: jlkonn at hotmail.com (John Konneker) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 23:45:20 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Old Kfactors In-Reply-To: <1415020012.619441237245725294.JavaMail.root@sz0016a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <2CF20ECFE33F4689AB1D5018AE0C67C1@UncleJasPC> <1415020012.619441237245725294.JavaMail.root@sz0016a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Jeff, This subject has come up recently on the list. I bet within a day or so you'll hear from some folks. Thanks for thinking of us! JLK Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 23:22:05 +0000 From: jeffghughes at comcast.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Old Kfactors I joined the chat list to ask if anyone wants a bunch of old K factors. I've cleaned out my work shop and have K factors from 1996 to present. I hate to throw them out, so if anyone wants them, their yours for postage. Jeff -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Tom.Koenig at actewagl.com.au Mon Mar 16 17:56:43 2009 From: Tom.Koenig at actewagl.com.au (Koenig, Tom) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 01:56:43 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Old Kfactors In-Reply-To: <1415020012.619441237245725294.JavaMail.root@sz0016a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <2CF20ECFE33F4689AB1D5018AE0C67C1@UncleJasPC> <1415020012.619441237245725294.JavaMail.root@sz0016a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <724ADB95DA93CC4BA53B10F84AF857775EB80B1C@CBRMAIL10.actewagl.production.com.au> Wow-I just did the same! Except mine go back to 95....I doubt anyone would want me to post them from Australia! I have passed mine on to some local potential new pattern flyers. So far they are in awe of the 'information' gold mine. Lets see what develops. Tom ________________________________ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of jeffghughes at comcast.net Sent: Tuesday, 17 March 2009 10:22 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Old Kfactors I joined the chat list to ask if anyone wants a bunch of old K factors. I've cleaned out my work shop and have K factors from 1996 to present. I hate to throw them out, so if anyone wants them, their yours for postage. Jeff ________________________________ ************************************************************************ *PLEASE NOTE* This email and any attachments may be confidential. If received in error, please delete all copies and advise the sender. The reproduction or dissemination of this email or its attachments is prohibited without the consent of the sender. WARNING RE VIRUSES: Our computer systems sweep outgoing email to guard against viruses, but no warranty is given that this email or its attachments are virus free. Before opening or using attachments, please check for viruses. Our liability is limited to the re-supply of any affected attachments. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender expressly, and with authority, states them to be the views of the organisation. ************************************************************************ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rgc1701 at earthlink.net Mon Mar 16 20:00:23 2009 From: rgc1701 at earthlink.net (Robert Campbell) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 04:00:23 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Looking for Electric Airplane Message-ID: I just sufferfed a bad crash last week and am in the market for a replacement aircraft. My preference is an electric powered 2 meter ship. If anybody has one for sale, please contact me at rgc1701 at earthlink.net. I live in Niceville, FL (about an hour east of Pensacola). If you're within a few hours drive, I'm willing to meet you. I also plan on being at the Ocala contest this weekend with my last competition slimer. Rob Campbell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From completemarine02 at sprintpcs.com Tue Mar 17 06:51:18 2009 From: completemarine02 at sprintpcs.com (Rusty Fried) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 14:51:18 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Looking for Electric Airplane In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000901c9a70f$d39adee0$7ad09ca0$@com> I have an Integral for sale. It is set up for Hacker endrunner. You can call me at 602 540 3991. TKS Rusty Fried From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Robert Campbell Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 9:00 PM To: 'General pattern discussion' Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Looking for Electric Airplane Importance: High I just sufferfed a bad crash last week and am in the market for a replacement aircraft. My preference is an electric powered 2 meter ship. If anybody has one for sale, please contact me at rgc1701 at earthlink.net. I live in Niceville, FL (about an hour east of Pensacola). If you're within a few hours drive, I'm willing to meet you. I also plan on being at the Ocala contest this weekend with my last competition slimer. Rob Campbell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 17 07:41:24 2009 From: homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com (Chris Fitzsimmons) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 15:41:24 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Looking for Electric Airplane Message-ID: <833831.88226.qm@web33007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> What's an endrunner Tinky? Sent from my iPhone On Mar 17, 2009, at 7:51 AM, Rusty Fried wrote: I have an Integral for sale. It is set up for Hacker endrunner. You can call me at 602 540 3991. TKS Rusty Fried From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Robert Campbell Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 9:00 PM To: 'General pattern discussion' Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Looking for Electric Airplane Importance: High I just sufferfed a bad crash last week and am in the market for a replacement aircraft. My preference is an electric powered 2 meter ship. If anybody has one for sale, please contact me at rgc1701 at earthlink.net. I live in Niceville, FL (about an hour east of Pensacola). If you're within a few hours drive, I'm willing to meet you. I also plan on being at the Ocala contest this weekend with my last competition slimer. Rob Campbell _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lightfoot at sc.rr.com Tue Mar 17 07:48:53 2009 From: lightfoot at sc.rr.com (Jay Marshall) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 15:48:53 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Looking for Electric Airplane In-Reply-To: <833831.88226.qm@web33007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: He is right next to the Guard. Jay Marshall -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Chris Fitzsimmons Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 11:41 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Looking for Electric Airplane What's an endrunner Tinky? Sent from my iPhone On Mar 17, 2009, at 7:51 AM, Rusty Fried wrote: I have an Integral for sale. It is set up for Hacker endrunner. You can call me at 602 540 3991. TKS Rusty Fried From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Robert Campbell Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 9:00 PM To: 'General pattern discussion' Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Looking for Electric Airplane Importance: High I just sufferfed a bad crash last week and am in the market for a replacement aircraft. My preference is an electric powered 2 meter ship. If anybody has one for sale, please contact me at rgc1701 at earthlink.net. I live in Niceville, FL (about an hour east of Pensacola). If you're within a few hours drive, I'm willing to meet you. I also plan on being at the Ocala contest this weekend with my last competition slimer. Rob Campbell _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joddino at socal.rr.com Tue Mar 17 16:02:10 2009 From: joddino at socal.rr.com (James Oddino) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 00:02:10 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ encoders In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <137DDDEA-D2FE-4E81-A2FD-CD6CCAFD47F9@socal.rr.com> I seem to remember a thread about someone with bad pots in a 14MZ (Adrian?). The last couple of sessions I'm aware of an intermittent delay before the airplane responds to an aileron command. It is not on every flight and usually only once per flight. Only on aileron at neutral. It never holds any other position. Ny system is just a little over one year old. I thought it had the latest "encoders". Time to send it to the hospital? Jim O From joddino at socal.rr.com Tue Mar 17 16:04:19 2009 From: joddino at socal.rr.com (James Oddino) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 00:04:19 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Looking for Electric Airplane In-Reply-To: <000901c9a70f$d39adee0$7ad09ca0$@com> References: <000901c9a70f$d39adee0$7ad09ca0$@com> Message-ID: <868F56C3-E953-438F-8453-6D22E205A1F4@socal.rr.com> Does Hacker make an up the middle runner? Just pulling your chain Rusty. Jim O On Mar 17, 2009, at 7:51 AM, Rusty Fried wrote: > I have an Integral for sale. It is set up for Hacker endrunner. > You can call me at 602 540 3991. > TKS Rusty Fried > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > ] On Behalf Of Robert Campbell > Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 9:00 PM > To: 'General pattern discussion' > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Looking for Electric Airplane > Importance: High > > I just sufferfed a bad crash last week and am in the market for a > replacement aircraft. My preference is an electric powered 2 meter > ship. If anybody has one for sale, please contact me at rgc1701 at earthlink.net > . I live in Niceville, FL (about an hour east of Pensacola). If > you're within a few hours drive, I'm willing to meet you. I also > plan on being at the Ocala contest this weekend with my last > competition slimer. > > Rob Campbell > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rharn at carolina.rr.com Tue Mar 17 16:10:35 2009 From: rharn at carolina.rr.com (rharn) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 00:10:35 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Old Kfactors In-Reply-To: References: <2CF20ECFE33F4689AB1D5018AE0C67C1@UncleJasPC><1415020012.619441237245725294.JavaMail.root@sz0016a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: I?ll take em. Rharn at carolina.rr.com _____ From: John Konneker [mailto:jlkonn at hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 7:45 PM To: Discussion List Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Old Kfactors Jeff, This subject has come up recently on the list. I bet within a day or so you'll hear from some folks. Thanks for thinking of us! JLK _____ Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 23:22:05 +0000 From: jeffghughes at comcast.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Old Kfactors I joined the chat list to ask if anyone wants a bunch of old K factors. I've cleaned out my work shop and have K factors from 1996 to present. I hate to throw them out, so if anyone wants them, their yours for postage. Jeff No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.16/2005 - Release Date: 3/16/2009 7:01 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schale at optonline.net Tue Mar 17 16:52:44 2009 From: schale at optonline.net (Stuart Chale) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 00:52:44 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ encoders In-Reply-To: <137DDDEA-D2FE-4E81-A2FD-CD6CCAFD47F9@socal.rr.com> References: <137DDDEA-D2FE-4E81-A2FD-CD6CCAFD47F9@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <49C045D7.3090309@optonline.net> It is easy to tell if you have the new or old. Just pull off the back cover. The new ones are white the old were blue. If your radio is really only 1 year old then it should have the new ones. With an encoder issue from what I have read you experience typical pot issues, jumpiness around a certain point. Should be repeatable. Also possible shifting neutral (trim). The new white ones have a better cycle life. Unfortunately it is difficult to be sure what some of the issues might be as it seems Futaba just replaces them when a radio is sent in for whatever reason or problem if they are the original ones. Mine were replaced when I sent it in for a screen issue. Generally Futaba denies any problems and just fixes the item when sent in. As I understand it the 12Z has the identical stick assembly/encoders as the 14. I recently called Futaba about a 12 with the blue encoders and was told by a technician that only the 14 had issues. Don't think I really believe that. Stuart C. James Oddino wrote: > > I seem to remember a thread about someone with bad pots in a 14MZ > (Adrian?). The last couple of sessions I'm aware of an intermittent > delay before the airplane responds to an aileron command. It is not > on every flight and usually only once per flight. Only on aileron at > neutral. It never holds any other position. > > Ny system is just a little over one year old. I thought it had the > latest "encoders". Time to send it to the hospital? > > Jim O > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > From adriancwong at earthlink.net Tue Mar 17 18:42:51 2009 From: adriancwong at earthlink.net (adriancwong at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 02:42:51 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ encoders Message-ID: <17644133.1237344169364.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Yes, that was me. As a matter of fact, it happened to both of my team mates, and it could happen to any of the 4 major channels. You'll first notice some minute unwanted inputs, and will eventually getting worse and worse, to the point that you can actually duplicate the problem on the ground. My first set of 14 has the older type, and was replaced free of charge by Futaba, and my spare set has the newer type. After repair, I used it for over a year without any issue. I recently sent it back to Futaba for annual check-up, with a note advising them about my concern on the normal wear and tear of the encoders, and they went ahead and change it again. One of the major cause besides normal wear and tear is dust. A lot of times when we fly alone, we'll put the Tx on the ground for engine start up - especially us glow guys. The dust from the engine blow back can get inside the stick pots causing them to be worn out prematurely. Therefore, I always put the Tx on a stool, or, a chair high off the ground during engine start up. Adrian -----Original Message----- >From: Stuart Chale >Sent: Mar 17, 2009 8:52 PM >To: General pattern discussion >Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ encoders > >It is easy to tell if you have the new or old. Just pull off the back >cover. The new ones are white the old were blue. If your radio is >really only 1 year old then it should have the new ones. With an >encoder issue from what I have read you experience typical pot issues, >jumpiness around a certain point. Should be repeatable. Also possible >shifting neutral (trim). The new white ones have a better cycle life. >Unfortunately it is difficult to be sure what some of the issues might >be as it seems Futaba just replaces them when a radio is sent in for >whatever reason or problem if they are the original ones. Mine were >replaced when I sent it in for a screen issue. Generally Futaba denies >any problems and just fixes the item when sent in. As I understand it >the 12Z has the identical stick assembly/encoders as the 14. I recently >called Futaba about a 12 with the blue encoders and was told by a >technician that only the 14 had issues. Don't think I really believe that. > >Stuart C. > >James Oddino wrote: >> >> I seem to remember a thread about someone with bad pots in a 14MZ >> (Adrian?). The last couple of sessions I'm aware of an intermittent >> delay before the airplane responds to an aileron command. It is not >> on every flight and usually only once per flight. Only on aileron at >> neutral. It never holds any other position. >> >> Ny system is just a little over one year old. I thought it had the >> latest "encoders". Time to send it to the hospital? >> >> Jim O >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >NSRCA-discussion mailing list >NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From jpavlick at idseng.com Tue Mar 17 19:39:36 2009 From: jpavlick at idseng.com (John Pavlick) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 03:39:36 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ encoders References: <137DDDEA-D2FE-4E81-A2FD-CD6CCAFD47F9@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <005601c9a77b$26a31dd0$9501a8c0@GW7422> I just sent my 12Z in and they replaced the encoders for free. I only had to pay the regular service charge + shipping. Mine had the old (blue) encoders though. John Pavlick http://www.idseng.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Oddino" To: "General pattern discussion" Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 8:02 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ encoders > > I seem to remember a thread about someone with bad pots in a 14MZ > (Adrian?). The last couple of sessions I'm aware of an intermittent > delay before the airplane responds to an aileron command. It is not on > every flight and usually only once per flight. Only on aileron at > neutral. It never holds any other position. > > Ny system is just a little over one year old. I thought it had the > latest "encoders". Time to send it to the hospital? > > Jim O > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From jpavlick at idseng.com Tue Mar 17 19:39:36 2009 From: jpavlick at idseng.com (John Pavlick) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 03:39:36 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ encoders References: <137DDDEA-D2FE-4E81-A2FD-CD6CCAFD47F9@socal.rr.com> <49C045D7.3090309@optonline.net> Message-ID: <005701c9a77b$26fb4ff0$9501a8c0@GW7422> Yes the 12Z has the same encoders as the 14Mz. I just had mine replaced for free during the annual checkup. Mine had the "old" blue ones and it was about 2 or 3 years old. It just started showing signs of problems. John Pavlick http://www.idseng.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stuart Chale" To: "General pattern discussion" Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 8:52 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ encoders > It is easy to tell if you have the new or old. Just pull off the back > cover. The new ones are white the old were blue. If your radio is really > only 1 year old then it should have the new ones. With an encoder issue > from what I have read you experience typical pot issues, jumpiness around > a certain point. Should be repeatable. Also possible shifting neutral > (trim). The new white ones have a better cycle life. Unfortunately it is > difficult to be sure what some of the issues might be as it seems Futaba > just replaces them when a radio is sent in for whatever reason or problem > if they are the original ones. Mine were replaced when I sent it in for a > screen issue. Generally Futaba denies any problems and just fixes the > item when sent in. As I understand it the 12Z has the identical stick > assembly/encoders as the 14. I recently called Futaba about a 12 with the > blue encoders and was told by a technician that only the 14 had issues. > Don't think I really believe that. > > Stuart C. > > James Oddino wrote: >> >> I seem to remember a thread about someone with bad pots in a 14MZ >> (Adrian?). The last couple of sessions I'm aware of an intermittent >> delay before the airplane responds to an aileron command. It is not on >> every flight and usually only once per flight. Only on aileron at >> neutral. It never holds any other position. >> >> Ny system is just a little over one year old. I thought it had the >> latest "encoders". Time to send it to the hospital? >> >> Jim O >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From rob at koolsoft.com Tue Mar 17 19:45:23 2009 From: rob at koolsoft.com (Robert L. Beaubien) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 03:45:23 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ encoders In-Reply-To: <005701c9a77b$26fb4ff0$9501a8c0@GW7422> References: <137DDDEA-D2FE-4E81-A2FD-CD6CCAFD47F9@socal.rr.com><49C045D7.3090309@optonline.net> <005701c9a77b$26fb4ff0$9501a8c0@GW7422> Message-ID: They replaced mine (12z) during my regular annual checkup as well. I was not experiencing any problems with the old ones and the new ones seem just as solid. - Robert Beaubien - NSRCA, District 7 Webmaster - "No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced." -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John Pavlick Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 8:40 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ encoders Yes the 12Z has the same encoders as the 14Mz. I just had mine replaced for free during the annual checkup. Mine had the "old" blue ones and it was about 2 or 3 years old. It just started showing signs of problems. John Pavlick http://www.idseng.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stuart Chale" To: "General pattern discussion" Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 8:52 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ encoders > It is easy to tell if you have the new or old. Just pull off the back > cover. The new ones are white the old were blue. If your radio is really > only 1 year old then it should have the new ones. With an encoder issue > from what I have read you experience typical pot issues, jumpiness around > a certain point. Should be repeatable. Also possible shifting neutral > (trim). The new white ones have a better cycle life. Unfortunately it is > difficult to be sure what some of the issues might be as it seems Futaba > just replaces them when a radio is sent in for whatever reason or problem > if they are the original ones. Mine were replaced when I sent it in for a > screen issue. Generally Futaba denies any problems and just fixes the > item when sent in. As I understand it the 12Z has the identical stick > assembly/encoders as the 14. I recently called Futaba about a 12 with the > blue encoders and was told by a technician that only the 14 had issues. > Don't think I really believe that. > > Stuart C. > > James Oddino wrote: >> >> I seem to remember a thread about someone with bad pots in a 14MZ >> (Adrian?). The last couple of sessions I'm aware of an intermittent >> delay before the airplane responds to an aileron command. It is not on >> every flight and usually only once per flight. Only on aileron at >> neutral. It never holds any other position. >> >> Ny system is just a little over one year old. I thought it had the >> latest "encoders". Time to send it to the hospital? >> >> Jim O >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From AtwoodDon at aol.com Wed Mar 18 16:59:43 2009 From: AtwoodDon at aol.com (AtwoodDon at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 00:59:43 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Sale - Electric Genesis and Eclipse Message-ID: A friend has asked me to post this to the NSRCA discussion group prior to him posting on other sites. He has a e-Genesis as well as an e-Eclipse for sale. I have a Word Doc (9 meg) with full descriptions and pictures I will forward to anyone that is interested, just contact me directly at _atwooddon at aol.com_ (mailto:atwooddon at aol.com) and I send the file or put you in direct contact with the seller. Here are some brief descriptions of each. Genesis $1000 Includes: Futaba 9650 (x2) Ail Servos Futaba 9550 Elev Servo Futaba 9451 Rudder Servo Jeti 90 Opto ESC w/ Futaba Choke Futaba R319 Rx TP 730 mah 2s Rx battery Jaccio Switch Model has several seasons on it, but still like nearly perfect condition. A couple of scrapes on the chin cowl and one wing tip. Otherwise paint and covering are in new condition. Flown with AXI 5330/F3A and that motor combined with a APC 20x13 prop yields a terrific combo. The hole spacing is consistent with other motors like the Dualsky series. Eclipse $700 Includes: 2x Fut 9451 Servos (Elev and Rudd) 2x Hitec 5945 Servos (Ail) Jeti 90 Opto ESC Fut PCM Rx Plane was originally built for glow and had a YS 140 L for power. Conversion was done a few years ago and plane is now set up for AXI or Dualsky nose ring mount. Plane flies really well, has some wear on it from lots of flying but is still clean and like new. **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jshulman at cfl.rr.com Wed Mar 18 18:47:18 2009 From: jshulman at cfl.rr.com (J Shu) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 02:47:18 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Electric X-mount questions Message-ID: <80015E13E6C742F09F1387888330CC72@UncleJasPC> Hi you 'tron pilots. Can someone send me a pic of the X-mount for their big pattern motor (if not in a plane) and send me some mounting dims please. Want to make sure our motor is the same (of close to) the one's out there. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com From vanputte at cox.net Wed Mar 18 20:27:35 2009 From: vanputte at cox.net (Ron Van Putte) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 04:27:35 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Electric X-mount questions In-Reply-To: <80015E13E6C742F09F1387888330CC72@UncleJasPC> References: <80015E13E6C742F09F1387888330CC72@UncleJasPC> Message-ID: Jason - If you want, I will bring a Dualsky 6360CA-12 (2450 watt) motor to the Ocala contest with a X mount. Ron On Mar 18, 2009, at 9:47 PM, J Shu wrote: > Hi you 'tron pilots. Can someone send me a pic of the X-mount for > their big pattern motor (if not in a plane) and send me some > mounting dims please. Want to make sure our motor is the same (of > close to) the one's out there. > > Regards, > Jason > www.shulmanaviation.com > www.composite-arf.com > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From joddino at socal.rr.com Wed Mar 18 21:12:38 2009 From: joddino at socal.rr.com (James Oddino) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 05:12:38 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Electric X-mount questions In-Reply-To: <80015E13E6C742F09F1387888330CC72@UncleJasPC> References: <80015E13E6C742F09F1387888330CC72@UncleJasPC> Message-ID: <233BB953-24C0-4096-983E-3F7F01E95082@socal.rr.com> Seems like the X-mount is just added weight? After installing the Plettenberg I don't see a need for it. What do you think? Jim O On Mar 18, 2009, at 7:47 PM, J Shu wrote: > Hi you 'tron pilots. Can someone send me a pic of the X-mount for > their big pattern motor (if not in a plane) and send me some > mounting dims please. Want to make sure our motor is the same (of > close to) the one's out there. > > Regards, > Jason > www.shulmanaviation.com > www.composite-arf.com > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From jshulman at cfl.rr.com Wed Mar 18 21:17:50 2009 From: jshulman at cfl.rr.com (J Shu) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 05:17:50 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Electric X-mount questions In-Reply-To: <233BB953-24C0-4096-983E-3F7F01E95082@socal.rr.com> References: <80015E13E6C742F09F1387888330CC72@UncleJasPC> <233BB953-24C0-4096-983E-3F7F01E95082@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: Not everyone likes to bolt it through the rear of the firewall. I don't mind cause it's lighter... but. I do think that the current 4-bolt mount (for production) will remain, but the X-mount (a bit heavier) will be an option for those who want it. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Oddino" To: "General pattern discussion" Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 1:12 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electric X-mount questions > Seems like the X-mount is just added weight? After installing the Plettenberg I don't see a need for it. What do you think? > > Jim O > > > On Mar 18, 2009, at 7:47 PM, J Shu wrote: > >> Hi you 'tron pilots. Can someone send me a pic of the X-mount for their big pattern motor (if not in a plane) and send me some >> mounting dims please. Want to make sure our motor is the same (of close to) the one's out there. >> >> Regards, >> Jason >> www.shulmanaviation.com >> www.composite-arf.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > From joddino at socal.rr.com Wed Mar 18 21:28:04 2009 From: joddino at socal.rr.com (James Oddino) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 05:28:04 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery References: <463269.90901.qm@web82002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: A buddy sent me this and I know it has been discussed here but.... I read the comments at the time and couldn't figure out why you guys were dismissing it so quickly. It seems to me it is exactly what we need. To charge and discharge fast you need extremely low internal resistance and we like that, so our voltage doesn't drop under high current loads. More power to the motor. Instead of 80 Amps at 35 volts you might get 95 Amps at 41 volts. At that point we might need better motors and ESCs but the batteries wouldn't be the limiting factor in the power train. It is definitely a step in the right direction. Any comments? Jim O Begin forwarded message: > From: Chas J Manzo > Date: March 18, 2009 4:52:31 PM PDT > To: Robert Halvorsen , Terry Johnson > , Jim Oddino > Subject: Fw: New fast charge battery > Reply-To: cmanzo at sbcglobal.net > > > > --- On Mon, 3/16/09, George Romain wrote: > From: George Romain > Subject: New fast charge battery > To: > Date: Monday, March 16, 2009, 7:40 PM > > New Batteries > > http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/health/ultra-high-power-lithium-ion-battery-charges-in-seconds_100165457.html > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 18 21:31:02 2009 From: homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com (krishlan fitzsimmons) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 05:31:02 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Electric X-mount questions Message-ID: <940247.69852.qm@web33004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I think the X-mount is great for those who want to use it. But, if mounting something such as a Pletty or Axi, there is no need if you are going to have a firewall anyway. I used the X-mount with my Dualsky's though. Was quite helpful as the Axi has a deeper mounting depth which is what my plane was setup for. Chris ? ? ? --- On Wed, 3/18/09, J Shu wrote: From: J Shu Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electric X-mount questions To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 10:17 PM Not everyone likes to bolt it through the rear of the firewall. I don't mind cause it's lighter... but. I do think that the current 4-bolt mount (for production) will remain, but the X-mount (a bit heavier) will be an option for those who want it. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Oddino" To: "General pattern discussion" Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 1:12 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electric X-mount questions > Seems like the X-mount is just added weight?? After installing the? Plettenberg I don't see a need for it.? What do you think? > > Jim O > > > On Mar 18, 2009, at 7:47 PM, J Shu wrote: > >> Hi you 'tron pilots. Can someone send me a pic of the X-mount for? their big pattern motor (if not in a plane) and send me some >> mounting dims please. Want to make sure our motor is the same (of? close to) the one's out there. >> >> Regards, >> Jason >> www.shulmanaviation.com >> www.composite-arf.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joddino at socal.rr.com Wed Mar 18 21:32:22 2009 From: joddino at socal.rr.com (James Oddino) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 05:32:22 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Electric X-mount questions In-Reply-To: References: <80015E13E6C742F09F1387888330CC72@UncleJasPC> <233BB953-24C0-4096-983E-3F7F01E95082@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: How are they going to get it in the plane? From the back with a big hole in the firewall? Seems you need to bolt something from the back because it is going to be bigger than the spinner diameter on most planes. Jim On Mar 18, 2009, at 10:17 PM, J Shu wrote: > Not everyone likes to bolt it through the rear of the firewall. I > don't mind cause it's lighter... but. > > I do think that the current 4-bolt mount (for production) will > remain, but the X-mount (a bit heavier) will be an option for those > who want it. > > Regards, > Jason > www.shulmanaviation.com > www.composite-arf.com > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Oddino" > > To: "General pattern discussion" > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 1:12 AM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electric X-mount questions > > >> Seems like the X-mount is just added weight? After installing the >> Plettenberg I don't see a need for it. What do you think? >> >> Jim O >> >> >> On Mar 18, 2009, at 7:47 PM, J Shu wrote: >> >>> Hi you 'tron pilots. Can someone send me a pic of the X-mount for >>> their big pattern motor (if not in a plane) and send me some >>> mounting dims please. Want to make sure our motor is the same (of >>> close to) the one's out there. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Jason >>> www.shulmanaviation.com >>> www.composite-arf.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 18 21:36:28 2009 From: homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com (krishlan fitzsimmons) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 05:36:28 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Electric X-mount questions Message-ID: <165570.68864.qm@web33001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I get it in my Abbra with no issues. I dremel the nose ring for the x mount on a 45 so that I can still nose mount a Budd mount for the C50. . Chris ? ? ? --- On Wed, 3/18/09, James Oddino wrote: From: James Oddino Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electric X-mount questions To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 10:32 PM How are they going to get it in the plane?? From the back with a big hole in the firewall?? Seems you need to bolt something from the back because it is going to be bigger than the spinner diameter on most planes. Jim On Mar 18, 2009, at 10:17 PM, J Shu wrote: > Not everyone likes to bolt it through the rear of the firewall. I don't mind cause it's lighter... but. > > I do think that the current 4-bolt mount (for production) will remain, but the X-mount (a bit heavier) will be an option for those who want it. > > Regards, > Jason > www.shulmanaviation.com > www.composite-arf.com > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Oddino" > To: "General pattern discussion" > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 1:12 AM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electric X-mount questions > > >> Seems like the X-mount is just added weight?? After installing the? Plettenberg I don't see a need for it.? What do you think? >> >> Jim O >> >> >> On Mar 18, 2009, at 7:47 PM, J Shu wrote: >> >>> Hi you 'tron pilots. Can someone send me a pic of the X-mount for? their big pattern motor (if not in a plane) and send me some mounting dims please. Want to make sure our motor is the same (of? close to) the one's out there. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Jason >>> www.shulmanaviation.com >>> www.composite-arf.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jshulman at cfl.rr.com Wed Mar 18 21:37:25 2009 From: jshulman at cfl.rr.com (J Shu) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 05:37:25 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Electric X-mount questions In-Reply-To: References: <80015E13E6C742F09F1387888330CC72@UncleJasPC><233BB953-24C0-4096-983E-3F7F01E95082@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: I don't know... this is just what I was asked. If there is an X-mount option. So it will be just that, an option . Now once the engraving is done, box art complete, into production it goes... I think. Regards, Jason www.shulmanaviation.com www.composite-arf.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Oddino" To: "General pattern discussion" Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 1:32 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electric X-mount questions > How are they going to get it in the plane? From the back with a big > hole in the firewall? Seems you need to bolt something from the back > because it is going to be bigger than the spinner diameter on most > planes. > > Jim > > > On Mar 18, 2009, at 10:17 PM, J Shu wrote: > >> Not everyone likes to bolt it through the rear of the firewall. I >> don't mind cause it's lighter... but. >> >> I do think that the current 4-bolt mount (for production) will >> remain, but the X-mount (a bit heavier) will be an option for those >> who want it. >> >> Regards, >> Jason >> www.shulmanaviation.com >> www.composite-arf.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Oddino" > > >> To: "General pattern discussion" >> Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 1:12 AM >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electric X-mount questions >> >> >>> Seems like the X-mount is just added weight? After installing the >>> Plettenberg I don't see a need for it. What do you think? >>> >>> Jim O >>> >>> >>> On Mar 18, 2009, at 7:47 PM, J Shu wrote: >>> >>>> Hi you 'tron pilots. Can someone send me a pic of the X-mount for >>>> their big pattern motor (if not in a plane) and send me some >>>> mounting dims please. Want to make sure our motor is the same (of >>>> close to) the one's out there. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Jason >>>> www.shulmanaviation.com >>>> www.composite-arf.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > From homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 18 21:38:15 2009 From: homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com (krishlan fitzsimmons) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 05:38:15 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery Message-ID: <433422.38597.qm@web33008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> My comment Jim is that I don't feel the batteries are limiting us, it's the weight of the batteries. If we could goto 30C batteries, we would have silly, silly power. You going to Riverside? Chris ? ? ? --- On Wed, 3/18/09, James Oddino wrote: From: James Oddino Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery To: "General discussion" Date: Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 10:28 PM A buddy sent me this and I know it has been discussed here but.... ?I read the comments at the time and couldn't figure out why you guys were dismissing it so quickly. ?It seems to me it is exactly what we need. ?To charge and discharge fast you need extremely low internal resistance and we like that, so our voltage doesn't drop under high current loads. ?More power to the motor. ?Instead of 80 Amps at 35 volts you might get 95 Amps at 41 volts. ?At that point we might need better motors and ESCs but the batteries wouldn't be the limiting factor in the power train. ?It is definitely a step in the right direction. ?Any comments? Jim O Begin forwarded message: From: Chas J Manzo Date: March 18, 2009 4:52:31 PM PDTTo: Robert Halvorsen , Terry Johnson , Jim Oddino Subject: Fw: New fast charge batteryReply-To: cmanzo at sbcglobal.net --- On Mon, 3/16/09, George Romain wrote: From: George Romain Subject: New fast charge battery To: Date: Monday, March 16, 2009, 7:40 PM New Batteries http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/health/ultra-high-power-lithium-ion-battery-charges-in-seconds_100165457.html -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joddino at socal.rr.com Wed Mar 18 21:54:46 2009 From: joddino at socal.rr.com (James Oddino) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 05:54:46 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery In-Reply-To: <433422.38597.qm@web33008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <433422.38597.qm@web33008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <26CCAE62-62FA-44D0-9A61-C83DAE170429@socal.rr.com> Hi Chris, I didn't see anything that indicated this mod would make them heavier. So assuming you could get a 5200 mah pack the same size as the new TP Prolite V2 or whatever they're called, and it was a 100C battery, I think we'd be very happy. I'm planning on going to Riverside but I'm a little worried about my radio. Maybe I'm losing it but I think I detect a hesitation in the ailerons every once in awhile. I need to do some testing to isolate the problem. Jim On Mar 18, 2009, at 10:38 PM, krishlan fitzsimmons wrote: > My comment Jim is that I don't feel the batteries are limiting us, > it's the weight of the batteries. If we could goto 30C batteries, we > would have silly, silly power. > > You going to Riverside? > > Chris > > > > > > --- On Wed, 3/18/09, James Oddino wrote: > > From: James Oddino > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery > To: "General discussion" > Date: Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 10:28 PM > > A buddy sent me this and I know it has been discussed here but.... > I read the comments at the time and couldn't figure out why you guys > were dismissing it so quickly. It seems to me it is exactly what we > need. To charge and discharge fast you need extremely low internal > resistance and we like that, so our voltage doesn't drop under high > current loads. More power to the motor. Instead of 80 Amps at 35 > volts you might get 95 Amps at 41 volts. At that point we might > need better motors and ESCs but the batteries wouldn't be the > limiting factor in the power train. It is definitely a step in the > right direction. Any comments? > > Jim O > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: Chas J Manzo >> Date: March 18, 2009 4:52:31 PM PDT >> To: Robert Halvorsen , Terry >> Johnson , Jim Oddino >> >> Subject: Fw: New fast charge battery >> Reply-To: cmanzo at sbcglobal.net >> >> >> >> --- On Mon, 3/16/09, George Romain wrote: >> From: George Romain >> Subject: New fast charge battery >> To: >> Date: Monday, March 16, 2009, 7:40 PM >> >> New Batteries >> >> http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/health/ultra-high-power-lithium-ion-battery-charges-in-seconds_100165457.html >> > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trexlesh at msn.com Wed Mar 18 22:02:43 2009 From: trexlesh at msn.com (Rex) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 06:02:43 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery In-Reply-To: References: <463269.90901.qm@web82002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm the guy that submitted the info that got bashed... lol As I was told, the reality of the charges in the batteries we use today, only receive about half of the charge they can actually take, because of the crystaline structure inside... I suppose that's what some of this quick charge structure is eluding to. The article I read stated that scientists have figured out how to get a better charge structure so the batteries will actually fill with charge. This would more than double the mAh of the battery. They had already been using this technology on their own laptops and cell phones, and were getting twice the run time.... I read a few of the other articles attached to the link you provided... They elude to exactly what I was talking about. If all of this is indeed going to be available to us in the near future, most all of our electrical problems using batteries will be eliminated, except we will have to adjust by using bigger, more powerful motors and esc's.... Wouldn't that be horrible? lol At the NW model Expo in March, a guy came to the NSRCA booth and began talking about all of this, stating that his son was working on this technology. Pretty much everything that he talked about was somewhat discussed in the articles. Pretty exciting, but it's like everything else... we are only going to see and hear tidbits of what's going on. They need to dangle the carrot, to get investment capitol. Rex From: joddino at socal.rr.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 22:28:00 -0700 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery A buddy sent me this and I know it has been discussed here but.... I read the comments at the time and couldn't figure out why you guys were dismissing it so quickly. It seems to me it is exactly what we need. To charge and discharge fast you need extremely low internal resistance and we like that, so our voltage doesn't drop under high current loads. More power to the motor. Instead of 80 Amps at 35 volts you might get 95 Amps at 41 volts. At that point we might need better motors and ESCs but the batteries wouldn't be the limiting factor in the power train. It is definitely a step in the right direction. Any comments? Jim O Begin forwarded message: From: Chas J Manzo Date: March 18, 2009 4:52:31 PM PDT To: Robert Halvorsen , Terry Johnson , Jim Oddino Subject: Fw: New fast charge battery Reply-To: cmanzo at sbcglobal.net --- On Mon, 3/16/09, George Romain wrote: From: George Romain Subject: New fast charge battery To: Date: Monday, March 16, 2009, 7:40 PM New Batteries http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/health/ultra-high-power-lithium-ion-battery-charges-in-seconds_100165457.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 18 22:26:29 2009 From: homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com (krishlan fitzsimmons) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 06:26:29 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery Message-ID: <224490.20467.qm@web33006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> A hesitation isn't normal? lol I tell my fingers to move, it just doesn't work. lol I missed the posts on this before I guess. If I could get a battery that was anything over mine (c rating) and the same weight, I would love it. But, what's the price? lol Chris ? ? ? --- On Wed, 3/18/09, James Oddino wrote: From: James Oddino Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 10:54 PM Hi Chris, I didn't see anything that indicated this mod would make them heavier. ?So assuming you could get a 5200 mah pack the same size as the new TP Prolite V2 or whatever they're called, and it was a 100C battery, I think we'd be very happy. I'm planning on going to Riverside but I'm a little worried about my radio. ?Maybe I'm losing it but I think I detect a hesitation in the ailerons ?every once in awhile. ?I need to do some testing to isolate the problem. Jim On Mar 18, 2009, at 10:38 PM, krishlan fitzsimmons wrote: My comment Jim is that I don't feel the batteries are limiting us, it's the weight of the batteries. If we could goto 30C batteries, we would have silly, silly power. You going to Riverside? Chris ? ? ? --- On Wed, 3/18/09, James Oddino wrote: From: James Oddino Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery To: "General discussion" Date: Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 10:28 PM A buddy sent me this and I know it has been discussed here but.... ?I read the comments at the time and couldn't figure out why you guys were dismissing it so quickly. ?It seems to me it is exactly what we need. ?To charge and discharge fast you need extremely low internal resistance and we like that, so our voltage doesn't drop under high current loads. ?More power to the motor. ?Instead of 80 Amps at 35 volts you might get 95 Amps at 41 volts. ?At that point we might need better motors and ESCs but the batteries wouldn't be the limiting factor in the power train. ?It is definitely a step in the right direction. ?Any comments? Jim O Begin forwarded message: From: Chas J Manzo Date: March 18, 2009 4:52:31 PM PDTTo: Robert Halvorsen , Terry Johnson , Jim Oddino Subject: Fw: New fast charge batteryReply-To: cmanzo at sbcglobal.net --- On Mon, 3/16/09, George Romain wrote: From: George Romain Subject: New fast charge battery To: Date: Monday, March 16, 2009, 7:40 PM New Batteries http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/health/ultra-high-power-lithium-ion-battery-charges-in-seconds_100165457.html -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pamrich47 at hotmail.com Thu Mar 19 07:23:57 2009 From: pamrich47 at hotmail.com (Richard Strickland) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 15:23:57 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Electric X-mount questions In-Reply-To: References: <80015E13E6C742F09F1387888330CC72@UncleJasPC> <233BB953-24C0-4096-983E-3F7F01E95082@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: I used some stuff left over from an Impact E mounting kit to firewall mount an AXI in a Pinnacle. One of the Items was a flat CF plate originally designed for a Plettenberg with a three point mount--and with the AXI, it did require the large hole in the firewall--or I was going to have to remove the 8mm adapater for installation or removal. The three point mount seems to have a little too much flex for my taste so I've got a little internal debate on whether trash the entire three point set-up for a four point--or to do some remedial work on stiffening the three point involving some CF/balsa sandwich perpendicular stiffeners maybe 1/2" wide from the three hardpoints back to the fuse--not much weight and might do the trick. RS > From: joddino at socal.rr.com > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 22:32:18 -0700 > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electric X-mount questions > > How are they going to get it in the plane? From the back with a big > hole in the firewall? Seems you need to bolt something from the back > because it is going to be bigger than the spinner diameter on most > planes. > > Jim > > > On Mar 18, 2009, at 10:17 PM, J Shu wrote: > > > Not everyone likes to bolt it through the rear of the firewall. I > > don't mind cause it's lighter... but. > > > > I do think that the current 4-bolt mount (for production) will > > remain, but the X-mount (a bit heavier) will be an option for those > > who want it. > > > > Regards, > > Jason > > www.shulmanaviation.com > > www.composite-arf.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Oddino" > > > > To: "General pattern discussion" > > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 1:12 AM > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electric X-mount questions > > > > > >> Seems like the X-mount is just added weight? After installing the > >> Plettenberg I don't see a need for it. What do you think? > >> > >> Jim O > >> > >> > >> On Mar 18, 2009, at 7:47 PM, J Shu wrote: > >> > >>> Hi you 'tron pilots. Can someone send me a pic of the X-mount for > >>> their big pattern motor (if not in a plane) and send me some > >>> mounting dims please. Want to make sure our motor is the same (of > >>> close to) the one's out there. > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> Jason > >>> www.shulmanaviation.com > >>> www.composite-arf.com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list > >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list > >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_70faster_032009 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnhiller at earthlink.net Thu Mar 19 07:29:49 2009 From: jnhiller at earthlink.net (J N Hiller) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 15:29:49 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hay Rex how much power do you need? You can do a vertical ROG now. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Rex Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 11:03 PM To: NSRCA-discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery I'm the guy that submitted the info that got bashed... lol As I was told, the reality of the charges in the batteries we use today, only receive about half of the charge they can actually take, because of the crystaline structure inside... I suppose that's what some of this quick charge structure is eluding to. The article I read stated that scientists have figured out how to get a better charge structure so the batteries will actually fill with charge. This would more than double the mAh of the battery. They had already been using this technology on their own laptops and cell phones, and were getting twice the run time.... I read a few of the other articles attached to the link you provided... They elude to exactly what I was talking about. If all of this is indeed going to be available to us in the near future, most all of our electrical problems using batteries will be eliminated, except we will have to adjust by using bigger, more powerful motors and esc's.... Wouldn't that be horrible? lol At the NW model Expo in March, a guy came to the NSRCA booth and began talking about all of this, stating that his son was working on this technology. Pretty much everything that he talked about was somewhat discussed in the articles. Pretty exciting, but it's like everything else... we are only going to see and hear tidbits of what's going on. They need to dangle the carrot, to get investment capitol. Rex _____ From: joddino at socal.rr.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 22:28:00 -0700 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery A buddy sent me this and I know it has been discussed here but.... I read the comments at the time and couldn't figure out why you guys were dismissing it so quickly. It seems to me it is exactly what we need. To charge and discharge fast you need extremely low internal resistance and we like that, so our voltage doesn't drop under high current loads. More power to the motor. Instead of 80 Amps at 35 volts you might get 95 Amps at 41 volts. At that point we might need better motors and ESCs but the batteries wouldn't be the limiting factor in the power train. It is definitely a step in the right direction. Any comments? Jim O Begin forwarded message: From: Chas J Manzo < cmanzo at sbcglobal.net > Date: March 18, 2009 4:52:31 PM PDT To: Robert Halvorsen < robert.halvorsen at sbcglobal.net >, Terry Johnson < terryljohnson at verizon.net >, Jim Oddino < joddino at socal.rr.com > Subject: Fw: New fast charge battery Reply-To: cmanzo at sbcglobal.net --- On Mon, 3/16/09, George Romain < gromain at dslextreme.com > wrote: From: George Romain < gromain at dslextreme.com > Subject: New fast charge battery To: Date: Monday, March 16, 2009, 7:40 PM New Batteries http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/health/ultra-high-power-lithium-ion-batt ery-charges-in-seconds_100165457.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpavlick at idseng.com Thu Mar 19 08:05:42 2009 From: jpavlick at idseng.com (John Pavlick) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 16:05:42 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <259949.32307.qm@web80501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> How many of you E-heads ever raced R/C cars competitively? Just curious. ? John Pavlick --- On Thu, 3/19/09, Rex wrote: From: Rex Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery To: "NSRCA-discussion" Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 6:02 AM #yiv966184145 .hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #yiv966184145 { font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;} I'm the guy that submitted?the info that got bashed...? lol As I was told, the reality of the charges?in?the batteries we use today, only?receive about half of the charge they can actually take, because of the crystaline structure inside...? I suppose that's what some of this?quick charge structure is eluding to.? The article I read stated that scientists have figured out how to get?a better?charge structure so the batteries will actually fill with charge. This?would?more than double the?mAh of the battery.? They had already been using this technology on their own laptops and cell phones, and were getting twice the run time....? I read a few of the other articles attached to the link you provided...? They elude to exactly what I was talking about.??If all of this is indeed?going to be available to us in the near future,??most all of our electrical problems using batteries will be? eliminated, except we will have to adjust by using bigger, more powerful motors and esc's....? Wouldn't that be horrible?? lol At the NW model Expo in March, a guy came to the NSRCA booth and began talking about all of this, stating that his son was working on this technology.? Pretty much everything that he talked about was somewhat discussed in the articles. Pretty exciting, but it's like everything else...? we are only going to see and hear tidbits of what's going on.? They need to dangle the carrot, to get investment capitol.? ? Rex ? ? From: joddino at socal.rr.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 22:28:00 -0700 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery A buddy sent me this and I know it has been discussed here but.... ?I read the comments at the time and couldn't figure out why you guys were dismissing it so quickly. ?It seems to me it is exactly what we need. ?To charge and discharge fast you need extremely low internal resistance and we like that, so our voltage doesn't drop under high current loads. ?More power to the motor. ?Instead of 80 Amps at 35 volts you might get 95 Amps at 41 volts. ?At that point we might need better motors and ESCs but the batteries wouldn't be the limiting factor in the power train. ?It is definitely a step in the right direction. ?Any comments? Jim O Begin forwarded message: From: Chas J Manzo Date: March 18, 2009 4:52:31 PM PDT To: Robert Halvorsen , Terry Johnson , Jim Oddino Subject: Fw: New fast charge battery Reply-To: cmanzo at sbcglobal.net --- On Mon, 3/16/09, George Romain wrote: From: George Romain Subject: New fast charge battery To: Date: Monday, March 16, 2009, 7:40 PM New Batteries http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/health/ultra-high-power-lithium-ion-battery-charges-in-seconds_100165457.html _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trexlesh at msn.com Thu Mar 19 08:41:32 2009 From: trexlesh at msn.com (Rex) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 16:41:32 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ya, you're right.... what was I thinking? lol In the real world, all this would allow for smaller, lighter batteries. Making weight would be a cinch, allowing a lot more planes to be used for electric power. From: jnhiller at earthlink.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 08:29:51 -0700 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery Hay Rex how much power do you need? You can do a vertical ROG now. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Rex Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 11:03 PM To: NSRCA-discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery I'm the guy that submitted the info that got bashed... lol As I was told, the reality of the charges in the batteries we use today, only receive about half of the charge they can actually take, because of the crystaline structure inside... I suppose that's what some of this quick charge structure is eluding to. The article I read stated that scientists have figured out how to get a better charge structure so the batteries will actually fill with charge. This would more than double the mAh of the battery. They had already been using this technology on their own laptops and cell phones, and were getting twice the run time.... I read a few of the other articles attached to the link you provided... They elude to exactly what I was talking about. If all of this is indeed going to be available to us in the near future, most all of our electrical problems using batteries will be eliminated, except we will have to adjust by using bigger, more powerful motors and esc's.... Wouldn't that be horrible? lol At the NW model Expo in March, a guy came to the NSRCA booth and began talking about all of this, stating that his son was working on this technology. Pretty much everything that he talked about was somewhat discussed in the articles. Pretty exciting, but it's like everything else... we are only going to see and hear tidbits of what's going on. They need to dangle the carrot, to get investment capitol. Rex From: joddino at socal.rr.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 22:28:00 -0700 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery A buddy sent me this and I know it has been discussed here but.... I read the comments at the time and couldn't figure out why you guys were dismissing it so quickly. It seems to me it is exactly what we need. To charge and discharge fast you need extremely low internal resistance and we like that, so our voltage doesn't drop under high current loads. More power to the motor. Instead of 80 Amps at 35 volts you might get 95 Amps at 41 volts. At that point we might need better motors and ESCs but the batteries wouldn't be the limiting factor in the power train. It is definitely a step in the right direction. Any comments? Jim O Begin forwarded message: From: Chas J Manzo Date: March 18, 2009 4:52:31 PM PDT To: Robert Halvorsen , Terry Johnson , Jim Oddino Subject: Fw: New fast charge battery Reply-To: cmanzo at sbcglobal.net --- On Mon, 3/16/09, George Romain wrote: From: George Romain Subject: New fast charge battery To: Date: Monday, March 16, 2009, 7:40 PMNew Batteries http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/health/ultra-high-power-lithium-ion-battery-charges-in-seconds_100165457.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From derekkoopowitz at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 08:41:42 2009 From: derekkoopowitz at gmail.com (Derek Koopowitz) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 16:41:42 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery In-Reply-To: <259949.32307.qm@web80501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <259949.32307.qm@web80501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3454543c0903190941m51253ddei24426ac943635aae@mail.gmail.com> I did... but it was 1/8 scale glow back in the mid 70's. 2009/3/19 John Pavlick > How many of you E-heads ever raced R/C cars competitively? Just curious. > > > John Pavlick > > --- On *Thu, 3/19/09, Rex * wrote: > > From: Rex > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery > To: "NSRCA-discussion" > Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 6:02 AM > > > I'm the guy that submitted the info that got bashed... lol > As I was told, the reality of the charges in the batteries we use today, > only receive about half of the charge they can actually take, because of > the > crystaline structure inside... I suppose that's what some of this quick > charge > structure is eluding to. The article I read stated that scientists have > figured out > how to get a better charge structure so the batteries will actually fill > with charge. > This would more than double the mAh of the battery. They had already been > using > this technology on their own laptops and cell phones, and were getting > twice the > run time.... > I read a few of the other articles attached to the link you provided... > They elude > to exactly what I was talking about. If all of this is indeed going to be > available to > us in the near future, most all of our electrical problems using batteries > will be > eliminated, except we will have to adjust by using bigger, more powerful > motors and > esc's.... Wouldn't that be horrible? lol > At the NW model Expo in March, a guy came to the NSRCA booth and began > talking > about all of this, stating that his son was working on this technology. > Pretty much > everything that he talked about was somewhat discussed in the articles. > Pretty exciting, but it's like everything else... we are only going to see > and hear > tidbits of what's going on. They need to dangle the carrot, to get > investment > capitol. > > Rex > > > > ------------------------------ > From: joddino at socal.rr.com > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 22:28:00 -0700 > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery > > A buddy sent me this and I know it has been discussed here but.... I read > the comments at the time and couldn't figure out why you guys were > dismissing it so quickly. It seems to me it is exactly what we need. To > charge and discharge fast you need extremely low internal resistance and we > like that, so our voltage doesn't drop under high current loads. More power > to the motor. Instead of 80 Amps at 35 volts you might get 95 Amps at 41 > volts. At that point we might need better motors and ESCs but the batteries > wouldn't be the limiting factor in the power train. It is definitely a step > in the right direction. Any comments? > Jim O > > Begin forwarded message: > > *From: *Chas J Manzo > *Date: *March 18, 2009 4:52:31 PM PDT > *To: *Robert Halvorsen , Terry Johnson < > terryljohnson at verizon.net>, Jim Oddino > *Subject: **Fw: New fast charge battery* > *Reply-To: *cmanzo at sbcglobal.net > > > > --- On *Mon, 3/16/09, George Romain * wrote: > > From: George Romain > Subject: New fast charge battery > To: > Date: Monday, March 16, 2009, 7:40 PM > > New Batteries > http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/health/ultra-high-power-lithium-ion-battery-charges-in-seconds_100165457.html > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing listNSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.orghttp://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joddino at socal.rr.com Thu Mar 19 13:10:10 2009 From: joddino at socal.rr.com (James Oddino) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 21:10:10 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA8E1BC-5B7B-4168-B25C-D09D76FAD153@socal.rr.com> I used to say that an engine is a machine that doesn't make enough power. Now I say a motor is also a machine that doesn't make enough power. Jim On Mar 19, 2009, at 8:29 AM, J N Hiller wrote: > Hay Rex how much power do you need? You can do a vertical ROG now. > Jim > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trexlesh at msn.com Thu Mar 19 13:33:24 2009 From: trexlesh at msn.com (Rex) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 21:33:24 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery In-Reply-To: <4EA8E1BC-5B7B-4168-B25C-D09D76FAD153@socal.rr.com> References: <4EA8E1BC-5B7B-4168-B25C-D09D76FAD153@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: Now I'm just guessing here.... I'm thinking that if you throttle up and the paint strips off the fuse, that's probably a bit too much! Rex From: joddino at socal.rr.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:10:06 -0700 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery I used to say that an engine is a machine that doesn't make enough power. Now I say a motor is also a machine that doesn't make enough power. Jim On Mar 19, 2009, at 8:29 AM, J N Hiller wrote: Hay Rex how much power do you need? You can do a vertical ROG now. Jim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ed_alt at hotmail.com Thu Mar 19 14:13:58 2009 From: ed_alt at hotmail.com (Ed Alt) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 22:13:58 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery References: <4EA8E1BC-5B7B-4168-B25C-D09D76FAD153@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: No way! That is simply evidence that your paint needs to be upgraded! ----- Original Message ----- From: Rex To: NSRCA-discussion Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery Now I'm just guessing here.... I'm thinking that if you throttle up and the paint strips off the fuse, that's probably a bit too much! Rex ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: joddino at socal.rr.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:10:06 -0700 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery I used to say that an engine is a machine that doesn't make enough power. Now I say a motor is also a machine that doesn't make enough power. Jim On Mar 19, 2009, at 8:29 AM, J N Hiller wrote: Hay Rex how much power do you need? You can do a vertical ROG now. Jim ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From khoard at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 14:15:53 2009 From: khoard at gmail.com (Keith Hoard) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 22:15:53 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery In-Reply-To: References: <4EA8E1BC-5B7B-4168-B25C-D09D76FAD153@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <6792ef120903191515g67aa71a7q27008327a9b233d5@mail.gmail.com> How good would these batteries work in my glow starter?. . . 2009/3/19 Ed Alt > No way! That is simply evidence that your paint needs to be upgraded! > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Rex > *To:* NSRCA-discussion > *Sent:* Thursday, March 19, 2009 4:33 PM > *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery > > Now I'm just guessing here.... I'm thinking that if you throttle up and > the paint > strips off the fuse, that's probably a bit too much! > > Rex > > ------------------------------ > From: joddino at socal.rr.com > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:10:06 -0700 > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery > > I used to say that an engine is a machine that doesn't make enough power. > Now I say a motor is also a machine that doesn't make enough power. > Jim > > > On Mar 19, 2009, at 8:29 AM, J N Hiller wrote: > > Hay Rex how much power do you need? You can do a vertical ROG now. > Jim > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AtwoodDon at aol.com Thu Mar 19 14:20:57 2009 From: AtwoodDon at aol.com (AtwoodDon at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 22:20:57 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery Message-ID: you might exceed the rpm limit for the valve train...... Don In a message dated 3/19/2009 3:16:25 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, khoard at gmail.com writes: How good would these batteries work in my glow starter?. . . 2009/3/19 Ed Alt <_ed_alt at hotmail.com_ (mailto:ed_alt at hotmail.com) > No way! That is simply evidence that your paint needs to be upgraded! ----- Original Message ----- From: _Rex_ (mailto:trexlesh at msn.com) To: _NSRCA-discussion_ (mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org) Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery Now I'm just guessing here.... I'm thinking that if you throttle up and the paint strips off the fuse, that's probably a bit too much! Rex ____________________________________ From: _joddino at socal.rr.com_ (mailto:joddino at socal.rr.com) To: _nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org_ (mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:10:06 -0700 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery I used to say that an engine is a machine that doesn't make enough power. Now I say a motor is also a machine that doesn't make enough power. Jim On Mar 19, 2009, at 8:29 AM, J N Hiller wrote: Hay Rex how much power do you need? You can do a vertical ROG now. Jim ____________________________________ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list _NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org_ (mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org) _http://lists.nsrca..org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion_ (http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion) _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list _NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org_ (mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org) _http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion_ (http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion) -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN _khoard at gmail.com_ (mailto:khoard at gmail.com) _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ed_alt at hotmail.com Thu Mar 19 14:32:02 2009 From: ed_alt at hotmail.com (Ed Alt) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 22:32:02 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery References: <4EA8E1BC-5B7B-4168-B25C-D09D76FAD153@socal.rr.com> <6792ef120903191515g67aa71a7q27008327a9b233d5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: This is very straightforward. The ideal battery is one that has 0 ohms internal resistance and infinite current delivery capability. This new technology gets you somewhat closer to that ideal. All it means is that it minimizes power losses due to much lower internal resistance, and reduces limitations that are placed on the performance of the thing you are powering with it. Even the ideal battery can only deliver as much current into the load as that device will draw based on its own resistance (actually impedance, but we'll keep it simple) Doesn't matter whether it is a motor, a light bulb or whatever. It's all good... Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Hoard To: General pattern discussion Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery How good would these batteries work in my glow starter?. . . 2009/3/19 Ed Alt No way! That is simply evidence that your paint needs to be upgraded! ----- Original Message ----- From: Rex To: NSRCA-discussion Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery Now I'm just guessing here.... I'm thinking that if you throttle up and the paint strips off the fuse, that's probably a bit too much! Rex -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: joddino at socal.rr.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:10:06 -0700 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery I used to say that an engine is a machine that doesn't make enough power. Now I say a motor is also a machine that doesn't make enough power. Jim On Mar 19, 2009, at 8:29 AM, J N Hiller wrote: Hay Rex how much power do you need? You can do a vertical ROG now. Jim -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trexlesh at msn.com Thu Mar 19 14:44:24 2009 From: trexlesh at msn.com (Rex) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 22:44:24 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery In-Reply-To: References: <4EA8E1BC-5B7B-4168-B25C-D09D76FAD153@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: A clear fuse with the paint on the inside!..... it works for the cars! From: ed_alt at hotmail.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:13:59 -0500 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery No way! That is simply evidence that your paint needs to be upgraded! ----- Original Message ----- From: Rex To: NSRCA-discussion Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery Now I'm just guessing here.... I'm thinking that if you throttle up and the paint strips off the fuse, that's probably a bit too much! Rex From: joddino at socal.rr.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:10:06 -0700 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery I used to say that an engine is a machine that doesn't make enough power. Now I say a motor is also a machine that doesn't make enough power. Jim On Mar 19, 2009, at 8:29 AM, J N Hiller wrote: Hay Rex how much power do you need? You can do a vertical ROG now. Jim _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trexlesh at msn.com Thu Mar 19 14:44:46 2009 From: trexlesh at msn.com (Rex) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 22:44:46 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery In-Reply-To: <6792ef120903191515g67aa71a7q27008327a9b233d5@mail.gmail.com> References: <4EA8E1BC-5B7B-4168-B25C-D09D76FAD153@socal.rr.com> <6792ef120903191515g67aa71a7q27008327a9b233d5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Sunglasses or a welder's hood! Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:15:50 -0500 From: khoard at gmail.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery How good would these batteries work in my glow starter?. . . 2009/3/19 Ed Alt No way! That is simply evidence that your paint needs to be upgraded! ----- Original Message ----- From: Rex To: NSRCA-discussion Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery Now I'm just guessing here.... I'm thinking that if you throttle up and the paint strips off the fuse, that's probably a bit too much! Rex From: joddino at socal.rr.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:10:06 -0700 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery I used to say that an engine is a machine that doesn't make enough power. Now I say a motor is also a machine that doesn't make enough power. Jim On Mar 19, 2009, at 8:29 AM, J N Hiller wrote: Hay Rex how much power do you need? You can do a vertical ROG now. Jim _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trexlesh at msn.com Thu Mar 19 14:46:37 2009 From: trexlesh at msn.com (Rex) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 22:46:37 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery In-Reply-To: References: <4EA8E1BC-5B7B-4168-B25C-D09D76FAD153@socal.rr.com> <6792ef120903191515g67aa71a7q27008327a9b233d5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Exactly... one of the big benefits would be the ability to use smaller batteries. Rex From: ed_alt at hotmail.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:32:03 -0500 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery This is very straightforward. The ideal battery is one that has 0 ohms internal resistance and infinite current delivery capability. This new technology gets you somewhat closer to that ideal. All it means is that it minimizes power losses due to much lower internal resistance, and reduces limitations that are placed on the performance of the thing you are powering with it. Even the ideal battery can only deliver as much current into the load as that device will draw based on its own resistance (actually impedance, but we'll keep it simple) Doesn't matter whether it is a motor, a light bulb or whatever. It's all good... Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Hoard To: General pattern discussion Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery How good would these batteries work in my glow starter?. . . 2009/3/19 Ed Alt No way! That is simply evidence that your paint needs to be upgraded! ----- Original Message ----- From: Rex To: NSRCA-discussion Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery Now I'm just guessing here.... I'm thinking that if you throttle up and the paint strips off the fuse, that's probably a bit too much! Rex From: joddino at socal.rr.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:10:06 -0700 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery I used to say that an engine is a machine that doesn't make enough power. Now I say a motor is also a machine that doesn't make enough power. Jim On Mar 19, 2009, at 8:29 AM, J N Hiller wrote: Hay Rex how much power do you need? You can do a vertical ROG now. Jim _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schale at optonline.net Thu Mar 19 14:48:30 2009 From: schale at optonline.net (Stuart Chale) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 22:48:30 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery In-Reply-To: References: <4EA8E1BC-5B7B-4168-B25C-D09D76FAD153@socal.rr.com> <6792ef120903191515g67aa71a7q27008327a9b233d5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49C2CBBC.4020909@optonline.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ojfrets at earthlink.net Thu Mar 19 14:50:24 2009 From: ojfrets at earthlink.net (ORLANDO FRETS) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 22:50:24 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery In-Reply-To: References: <4EA8E1BC-5B7B-4168-B25C-D09D76FAD153@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <0BB95E3B2AE3489D884E9D6AAD7276FE@OrlandoPC> Or; if yu throttle up and your paint stripes wrap around the fuse, that may be a little too much!! Orlando Frets -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Rex Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 5:33 PM To: NSRCA-discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery Now I'm just guessing here.... I'm thinking that if you throttle up and the paint strips off the fuse, that's probably a bit too much! Rex ________________________________ From: joddino at socal.rr.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:10:06 -0700 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery I used to say that an engine is a machine that doesn't make enough power. Now I say a motor is also a machine that doesn't make enough power. Jim On Mar 19, 2009, at 8:29 AM, J N Hiller wrote: Hay Rex how much power do you need? You can do a vertical ROG now. Jim From ed_alt at hotmail.com Thu Mar 19 14:51:48 2009 From: ed_alt at hotmail.com (Ed Alt) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 22:51:48 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery References: <4EA8E1BC-5B7B-4168-B25C-D09D76FAD153@socal.rr.com><6792ef120903191515g67aa71a7q27008327a9b233d5@mail.gmail.com> <49C2CBBC.4020909@optonline.net> Message-ID: Stu: This battery technology will run cooler and deliver more usable power to the motor. As long as the weight and reliability is good, it is a good thing. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Stuart Chale To: General pattern discussion Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 5:48 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery The key in my mind as we already have enough power in a makable weight for a new set of batteries, is the number of cycles you can get. It the new technology gets us 200 cycles before degradation then I'll take 2 :) Don't need three any more because they charge faster. Stuart Ed Alt wrote: This is very straightforward. The ideal battery is one that has 0 ohms internal resistance and infinite current delivery capability. This new technology gets you somewhat closer to that ideal. All it means is that it minimizes power losses due to much lower internal resistance, and reduces limitations that are placed on the performance of the thing you are powering with it. Even the ideal battery can only deliver as much current into the load as that device will draw based on its own resistance (actually impedance, but we'll keep it simple) Doesn't matter whether it is a motor, a light bulb or whatever. It's all good... Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Hoard To: General pattern discussion Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery How good would these batteries work in my glow starter?. . . 2009/3/19 Ed Alt No way! That is simply evidence that your paint needs to be upgraded! ----- Original Message ----- From: Rex To: NSRCA-discussion Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery Now I'm just guessing here.... I'm thinking that if you throttle up and the paint strips off the fuse, that's probably a bit too much! Rex ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: joddino at socal.rr.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:10:06 -0700 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery I used to say that an engine is a machine that doesn't make enough power. Now I say a motor is also a machine that doesn't make enough power. Jim On Mar 19, 2009, at 8:29 AM, J N Hiller wrote: Hay Rex how much power do you need? You can do a vertical ROG now. Jim ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at toprudder.com Thu Mar 19 15:41:48 2009 From: bob at toprudder.com (Bob Richards) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 23:41:48 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery Message-ID: <201848.5699.qm@web1111.biz.mail.sk1.yahoo.com> You were a little unclear. By "strips", do you mean the propwash blows the paint off, or do you mean the heat generated inside the fuselage melts it off? ;-) The reason I ask, I've never seen the former, but I have seen the latter. You can have a great smoke system with an electric plane -- ONCE! Bob R. --- On Thu, 3/19/09, Rex wrote: > Now I'm just guessing here....? I'm thinking > that if you throttle up and the paint > strips off the fuse, that's probably a bit too much! From trexlesh at msn.com Thu Mar 19 16:29:26 2009 From: trexlesh at msn.com (Rex) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 00:29:26 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery In-Reply-To: <201848.5699.qm@web1111.biz.mail.sk1.yahoo.com> References: <201848.5699.qm@web1111.biz.mail.sk1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I've heard about the "electric vapor trail", but haven't witnessed it.... And I don't want to! R > Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 16:41:44 -0700 > From: bob at toprudder.com > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery > > > You were a little unclear. By "strips", do you mean the propwash blows the paint off, or do you mean the heat generated inside the fuselage melts it off? ;-) The reason I ask, I've never seen the former, but I have seen the latter. > > You can have a great smoke system with an electric plane -- ONCE! > > Bob R. > > > --- On Thu, 3/19/09, Rex wrote: > > > Now I'm just guessing here.... I'm thinking > > that if you throttle up and the paint > > strips off the fuse, that's probably a bit too much! > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schale at optonline.net Thu Mar 19 17:07:06 2009 From: schale at optonline.net (Stuart Chale) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 01:07:06 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Mode 1 In-Reply-To: <49C2CBBC.4020909@optonline.net> References: <4EA8E1BC-5B7B-4168-B25C-D09D76FAD153@socal.rr.com> <6792ef120903191515g67aa71a7q27008327a9b233d5@mail.gmail.com> <49C2CBBC.4020909@optonline.net> Message-ID: <49C2EC29.5000803@optonline.net> We have had discussions of mode 1 vs 2 and this is not meant to renew them. But, I have always wanted to try mode 1 and just happened to have a radio that I bought that was in mode 1, thanks Mike. Trying it on the sim was interesting to say the least. This near 50 year old is not going to try to make the switch. I can see where some maneuvers like rolls are made for mode 1 though. I think it could be a lot of fun to get a group of mode 2 fliers and have them all try to fly mode 1 (on a sim) You wouldn't even need the beer. Very impressive for those that can switch back and forth between modes. And a friend said he doesn't fly helis because the inputs sometimes get mixed up when he flies planes :) Stuart From DaveL322 at comcast.net Thu Mar 19 17:59:12 2009 From: DaveL322 at comcast.net (Dave) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 01:59:12 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery In-Reply-To: <49C2CBBC.4020909@optonline.net> References: <4EA8E1BC-5B7B-4168-B25C-D09D76FAD153@socal.rr.com><6792ef120903191515g67aa71a7q27008327a9b233d5@mail.gmail.com> <49C2CBBC.4020909@optonline.net> Message-ID: <325303B0FE3542628F8922D930E700F5@davedesktop> The faster you charge, the fewer the cycles you get!! Figure cycle life is reduced by about 50% at 3C charge rates. Regards, Dave _____ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Stuart Chale Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 6:48 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery The key in my mind as we already have enough power in a makable weight for a new set of batteries, is the number of cycles you can get. It the new technology gets us 200 cycles before degradation then I'll take 2 :) Don't need three any more because they charge faster. Stuart Ed Alt wrote: This is very straightforward. The ideal battery is one that has 0 ohms internal resistance and infinite current delivery capability. This new technology gets you somewhat closer to that ideal. All it means is that it minimizes power losses due to much lower internal resistance, and reduces limitations that are placed on the performance of the thing you are powering with it. Even the ideal battery can only deliver as much current into the load as that device will draw based on its own resistance (actually impedance, but we'll keep it simple) Doesn't matter whether it is a motor, a light bulb or whatever. It's all good... Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Hoard To: General pattern discussion Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery How good would these batteries work in my glow starter?. . . 2009/3/19 Ed Alt No way! That is simply evidence that your paint needs to be upgraded! ----- Original Message ----- From: Rex To: NSRCA-discussion Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery Now I'm just guessing here.... I'm thinking that if you throttle up and the paint strips off the fuse, that's probably a bit too much! Rex _____ From: joddino at socal.rr.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:10:06 -0700 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery I used to say that an engine is a machine that doesn't make enough power. Now I say a motor is also a machine that doesn't make enough power. Jim On Mar 19, 2009, at 8:29 AM, J N Hiller wrote: Hay Rex how much power do you need? You can do a vertical ROG now. Jim _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kvelez at rochester.rr.com Thu Mar 19 20:10:41 2009 From: kvelez at rochester.rr.com (Ken Velez) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 04:10:41 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Mode 1 In-Reply-To: <49C2EC29.5000803@optonline.net> Message-ID: <9BED07E2D6164EACA87893C6C34F083B@ken42e65a0511d> Try Mode 4, it does the same thing separates the ailerons from the elevator but reverse. With your mode 2 radio on your simulator swap the channel 1 and 4 if you fly Futaba or 2 and 4 if you fly JR on the computer program, it might feel a little more normal although I'm not suggesting to switch modes. It's a hard thing to do but fun. Ken -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Stuart Chale Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 9:07 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Mode 1 We have had discussions of mode 1 vs 2 and this is not meant to renew them. But, I have always wanted to try mode 1 and just happened to have a radio that I bought that was in mode 1, thanks Mike. Trying it on the sim was interesting to say the least. This near 50 year old is not going to try to make the switch. I can see where some maneuvers like rolls are made for mode 1 though. I think it could be a lot of fun to get a group of mode 2 fliers and have them all try to fly mode 1 (on a sim) You wouldn't even need the beer. Very impressive for those that can switch back and forth between modes. And a friend said he doesn't fly helis because the inputs sometimes get mixed up when he flies planes :) Stuart _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joddino at socal.rr.com Thu Mar 19 21:00:33 2009 From: joddino at socal.rr.com (James Oddino) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 05:00:33 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery In-Reply-To: <325303B0FE3542628F8922D930E700F5@davedesktop> References: <4EA8E1BC-5B7B-4168-B25C-D09D76FAD153@socal.rr.com><6792ef120903191515g67aa71a7q27008327a9b233d5@mail.gmail.com> <49C2CBBC.4020909@optonline.net> <325303B0FE3542628F8922D930E700F5@davedesktop> Message-ID: <97E81E76-5960-4FE8-943A-FFDE41125F36@socal.rr.com> I don't know for sure but I would guess it depends on how much heat is generated. With lower internal resistance it could be a push (10C on the new batteries might be equivalent to 1C on our present state of the art packs). Jim On Mar 19, 2009, at 6:54 PM, Dave wrote: > The faster you charge, the fewer the cycles you get!! Figure cycle > life is reduced by about 50% at 3C charge rates. > > Regards, > > Dave > > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > ] On Behalf Of Stuart Chale > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 6:48 PM > To: General pattern discussion > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery > > The key in my mind as we already have enough power in a makable > weight for a new set of batteries, is the number of cycles you can > get. It the new technology gets us 200 cycles before degradation > then I'll take 2 :) Don't need three any more because they charge > faster. > Stuart > > Ed Alt wrote: > This is very straightforward. The ideal battery is one that has 0 > ohms internal resistance and infinite current delivery capability. > This new technology gets you somewhat closer to that ideal. All it > means is that it minimizes power losses due to much lower internal > resistance, and reduces limitations that are placed on the > performance of the thing you are powering with it. Even the ideal > battery can only deliver as much current into the load as that > device will draw based on its own resistance (actually impedance, > but we'll keep it simple) Doesn't matter whether it is a motor, a > light bulb or whatever. It's all good... > > > Ed > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Keith Hoard > To: General pattern discussion > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 5:15 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery > > How good would these batteries work in my glow starter?. . . > > 2009/3/19 Ed Alt > No way! That is simply evidence that your paint needs to be upgraded! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rex > To: NSRCA-discussion > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 4:33 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery > > Now I'm just guessing here.... I'm thinking that if you throttle up > and the paint > strips off the fuse, that's probably a bit too much! > > Rex > > From: joddino at socal.rr.com > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:10:06 -0700 > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery > > I used to say that an engine is a machine that doesn't make enough > power. Now I say a motor is also a machine that doesn't make enough > power. > > Jim > > > On Mar 19, 2009, at 8:29 AM, J N Hiller wrote: > > Hay Rex how much power do you need? You can do a vertical ROG now. > Jim > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > -- > > Keith Hoard > Collierville, TN > khoard at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpavlick at idseng.com Thu Mar 19 21:09:17 2009 From: jpavlick at idseng.com (John Pavlick) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 05:09:17 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery References: <4EA8E1BC-5B7B-4168-B25C-D09D76FAD153@socal.rr.com><6792ef120903191515g67aa71a7q27008327a9b233d5@mail.gmail.com><49C2CBBC.4020909@optonline.net> <325303B0FE3542628F8922D930E700F5@davedesktop> Message-ID: <008701c9a91a$00c25770$9501a8c0@GW7422> Going back to my "How many of you guys ever raced R/C cars" question - the reason I asked is because if you did you'd already be thinking like Dave. Well, not exactly. I don't believe anyone can think like Dave! LOL Back when I raced, we used NiCADs. Why? Because that's all we had. We had basically 2 kinds: high output / fast charge (SCR) and high capacity / slow charge (SCE) types. At the risk of oversimplifying - the difference had to do with internal resistance. For stock class we ran the high output type, for modifieds we used the high capacity type. To get Max performance from the high output batteries in stock class we charged them at 1 - 4C, then we re-peaked them before the race at 10 - 30C! Some guys used to charge until the cell vents opened. The result: a super hole-shot, lotsa power, 4 minutes worth of fun. Then we threw the battery pack out. They could only handle this kind of abuse once. You didn't do this every weekend, just for the really big events. OK, if you were spoonsored you did this all the time. :) The high capacity batteries had to be treated differently. Normally you charged at 1-4C. In a 2WD modified car you could expect to get at least a few cycles before you used the pack for practice. If you were "cheap" you'd take a pack that had been used 4 or 5 times, put it on a trickle charger overnight to "re-balance" the cells (sound familiar?) and used it until it dumped on the last lap and cost you a race. If you were sponsored you always had brand new "computer matched" batteries so you didn't have to do this. Bottom line: You can't have everything. You're going to trade off something. You need to understand exactly what you're getting with a new technology and if it's worth giving up something that the existing technology might do better. I doubt very much that you'll see a 30C discharge rate + 3C charge rate capable pack that weighs half as much as what we have now AND delivers more usable cycles as well. But I guess we can dream. VBG John Pavlick http://www.idseng.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave To: 'General pattern discussion' Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 9:54 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery The faster you charge, the fewer the cycles you get!! Figure cycle life is reduced by about 50% at 3C charge rates. Regards, Dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Stuart Chale Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 6:48 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery The key in my mind as we already have enough power in a makable weight for a new set of batteries, is the number of cycles you can get. It the new technology gets us 200 cycles before degradation then I'll take 2 :) Don't need three any more because they charge faster. Stuart Ed Alt wrote: This is very straightforward. The ideal battery is one that has 0 ohms internal resistance and infinite current delivery capability. This new technology gets you somewhat closer to that ideal. All it means is that it minimizes power losses due to much lower internal resistance, and reduces limitations that are placed on the performance of the thing you are powering with it. Even the ideal battery can only deliver as much current into the load as that device will draw based on its own resistance (actually impedance, but we'll keep it simple) Doesn't matter whether it is a motor, a light bulb or whatever. It's all good... Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Hoard To: General pattern discussion Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery How good would these batteries work in my glow starter?. . . 2009/3/19 Ed Alt No way! That is simply evidence that your paint needs to be upgraded! ----- Original Message ----- From: Rex To: NSRCA-discussion Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery Now I'm just guessing here.... I'm thinking that if you throttle up and the paint strips off the fuse, that's probably a bit too much! Rex -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: joddino at socal.rr.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:10:06 -0700 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery I used to say that an engine is a machine that doesn't make enough power. Now I say a motor is also a machine that doesn't make enough power. Jim On Mar 19, 2009, at 8:29 AM, J N Hiller wrote: Hay Rex how much power do you need? You can do a vertical ROG now. Jim -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________NSRCA-discussion mailing listNSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.orghttp://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pnahobbies at sbcglobal.net Thu Mar 19 21:15:12 2009 From: pnahobbies at sbcglobal.net (Ihncheol Park) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 05:15:12 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Mode 1 References: <4EA8E1BC-5B7B-4168-B25C-D09D76FAD153@socal.rr.com> <6792ef120903191515g67aa71a7q27008327a9b233d5@mail.gmail.com> <49C2CBBC.4020909@optonline.net> <49C2EC29.5000803@optonline.net> Message-ID: <479321.86118.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Stu, I fly Mode 1 for airplane. Learned to fly Mode 1 since 1982. Started flying heli about?5 years ago with a lot of crashes in?Mode 1.? Switched to?Mode 2 for Heli, so far so good.??I just need to be careful of the throttle stick location and carry 2 transmitters whenever flying both. Whenever people ask me, I tell them that I think having rudder/elevator grouped together so Mode 1 is easier for airplane.? heli has aileron/elevator grouped together, so Mode 2. That is just my way and feel comfortable. IP ________________________________ From: Stuart Chale To: General pattern discussion Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 8:06:49 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Mode 1 We have had discussions of mode 1 vs 2 and this is not meant to renew them.? But, I have always wanted to try mode 1 and just happened to have a radio that I bought that was in mode 1, thanks Mike.? Trying it on the sim was interesting to say the least.? This near 50 year old is not going to try to make the switch.? I can see where some maneuvers like rolls are made for mode 1 though. I think it could be a lot of fun to get a group of mode 2 fliers and have them all try to fly mode 1 (on a sim)? You wouldn't even need the beer.? Very impressive for those that can switch back and forth between modes.? And a friend said he doesn't fly helis because the inputs sometimes get mixed up when he flies planes :) Stuart _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joddino at socal.rr.com Thu Mar 19 21:27:12 2009 From: joddino at socal.rr.com (James Oddino) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 05:27:12 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery In-Reply-To: <008701c9a91a$00c25770$9501a8c0@GW7422> References: <4EA8E1BC-5B7B-4168-B25C-D09D76FAD153@socal.rr.com><6792ef120903191515g67aa71a7q27008327a9b233d5@mail.gmail.com><49C2CBBC.4020909@optonline.net> <325303B0FE3542628F8922D930E700F5@davedesktop> <008701c9a91a$00c25770$9501a8c0@GW7422> Message-ID: <3A3C3996-772E-4575-9DFE-7489AC60D657@socal.rr.com> John, you've got to be an optimist. We want it all. Who ever dreamed we'd have what we have now back in the NiCd days. The peaking you did was no doubt heating them and lowering the Internal resistance. Did anyone ever try just heating them with an oven? That's what I do now and I believe it not only gives you better power right off the ground but I believe it is easier on the batteries. We'll see how my new packs hold up over time but so far they are looking great. Jim On Mar 19, 2009, at 10:09 PM, John Pavlick wrote: > Going back to my "How many of you guys ever raced R/C cars" question > - the reason I asked is because if you did you'd already be thinking > like Dave. Well, not exactly. I don't believe anyone can think like > Dave! LOL > > Back when I raced, we used NiCADs. Why? Because that's all we had. > We had basically 2 kinds: high output / fast charge (SCR) and high > capacity / slow charge (SCE) types. At the risk of oversimplifying - > the difference had to do with internal resistance. For stock class > we ran the high output type, for modifieds we used the high capacity > type. To get Max performance from the high output batteries in stock > class we charged them at 1 - 4C, then we re-peaked them before the > race at 10 - 30C! Some guys used to charge until the cell vents > opened. The result: a super hole-shot, lotsa power, 4 minutes worth > of fun. Then we threw the battery pack out. They could only handle > this kind of abuse once. You didn't do this every weekend, just for > the really big events. OK, if you were spoonsored you did this all > the time. :) > The high capacity batteries had to be treated differently. Normally > you charged at 1-4C. In a 2WD modified car you could expect to get > at least a few cycles before you used the pack for practice. If you > were "cheap" you'd take a pack that had been used 4 or 5 times, put > it on a trickle charger overnight to "re-balance" the cells (sound > familiar?) and used it until it dumped on the last lap and cost you > a race. If you were sponsored you always had brand new "computer > matched" batteries so you didn't have to do this. > > Bottom line: You can't have everything. You're going to trade off > something. You need to understand exactly what you're getting with a > new technology and if it's worth giving up something that the > existing technology might do better. I doubt very much that you'll > see a 30C discharge rate + 3C charge rate capable pack that weighs > half as much as what we have now AND delivers more usable cycles as > well. But I guess we can dream. VBG > > John Pavlick > http://www.idseng.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dave > To: 'General pattern discussion' > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 9:54 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery > > The faster you charge, the fewer the cycles you get!! Figure cycle > life is reduced by about 50% at 3C charge rates. > > Regards, > > Dave > > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > ] On Behalf Of Stuart Chale > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 6:48 PM > To: General pattern discussion > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery > > The key in my mind as we already have enough power in a makable > weight for a new set of batteries, is the number of cycles you can > get. It the new technology gets us 200 cycles before degradation > then I'll take 2 :) Don't need three any more because they charge > faster. > Stuart > > Ed Alt wrote: > This is very straightforward. The ideal battery is one that has 0 > ohms internal resistance and infinite current delivery capability. > This new technology gets you somewhat closer to that ideal. All it > means is that it minimizes power losses due to much lower internal > resistance, and reduces limitations that are placed on the > performance of the thing you are powering with it. Even the ideal > battery can only deliver as much current into the load as that > device will draw based on its own resistance (actually impedance, > but we'll keep it simple) Doesn't matter whether it is a motor, a > light bulb or whatever. It's all good... > > > Ed > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Keith Hoard > To: General pattern discussion > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 5:15 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery > > How good would these batteries work in my glow starter?. . . > > 2009/3/19 Ed Alt > No way! That is simply evidence that your paint needs to be upgraded! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rex > To: NSRCA-discussion > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 4:33 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery > > Now I'm just guessing here.... I'm thinking that if you throttle up > and the paint > strips off the fuse, that's probably a bit too much! > > Rex > > From: joddino at socal.rr.com > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:10:06 -0700 > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery > > I used to say that an engine is a machine that doesn't make enough > power. Now I say a motor is also a machine that doesn't make enough > power. > > Jim > > > On Mar 19, 2009, at 8:29 AM, J N Hiller wrote: > > Hay Rex how much power do you need? You can do a vertical ROG now. > Jim > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > -- > > Keith Hoard > Collierville, TN > khoard at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 19 22:05:03 2009 From: homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com (krishlan fitzsimmons) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 06:05:03 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery Message-ID: <445285.55507.qm@web33007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> What packs are you running now Jim? ? Heating the packs is the way to go. Chris ? ? ? --- On Thu, 3/19/09, James Oddino wrote: From: James Oddino Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 10:27 PM John, you've got to be an?optimist. ?We want it all. ?Who ever dreamed we'd have what we have now back in the NiCd days. The peaking you did was no doubt heating them and lowering the Internal resistance. ?Did anyone ever try just heating them with an oven? ?That's what I do now and I believe it not only gives you better power right off the ground but I believe it is easier on the batteries. ?We'll see how my new packs hold up over time but so far they are looking great. Jim On Mar 19, 2009, at 10:09 PM, John Pavlick wrote: Going back to my "How many of you guys ever raced R/C cars" question - the reason I asked is because if you did you'd already be thinking like Dave. Well, not exactly. I don't?believe anyone can think like Dave! LOL ? Back when I raced, we used NiCADs. Why? Because that's all we had. We had basically 2 kinds: high output / fast charge (SCR) and high?capacity / slow charge (SCE) types. At the risk of oversimplifying - the difference had to do with internal resistance. For stock class we ran the high output type, for modifieds we used the high capacity type. To get Max performance from the high output batteries in stock class we charged them at 1 - 4C, then we re-peaked them before the race at 10 - 30C! Some guys used to charge until the cell vents opened. The result: a super hole-shot, lotsa power, 4 minutes worth of fun. Then we threw the battery pack out. They could only handle this kind of abuse once. You didn't do this every weekend, just for the really big events. OK, if you were spoonsored you did this all the time. :) The high capacity batteries had to be treated differently. Normally you charged at 1-4C. In a 2WD modified car you could expect to get at least a few cycles before you used the pack for practice. If you were "cheap" you'd take a pack that had been used 4 or 5 times, put it on a trickle charger overnight to "re-balance" the cells (sound familiar?) and used it until it dumped on the last lap and cost you a race. If you were sponsored you always had brand new "computer matched" batteries so you didn't have to do this. ? Bottom line: You can't have everything. You're going to trade off something. You need to understand exactly what you're getting with a new technology and if it's worth giving up something that the existing technology might do better. I doubt very much that you'll see a 30C discharge rate + 3C charge rate capable pack that weighs half as much as what we have now AND delivers more usable cycles as well. But?I guess we can dream. VBG ? John Pavlick http://www.idseng.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave To: 'General pattern discussion' Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 9:54 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery The faster you charge, the fewer the cycles you get!! ?Figure cycle life is reduced by about 50% at 3C charge rates. ? Regards, ? Dave ? From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Stuart Chale Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 6:48 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery ? The key in my mind as we already have enough power in a makable weight for a new set of batteries, is the number of cycles you can get.? It the new technology gets us 200 cycles before degradation then I'll take 2 :)? Don't need three any more because they charge faster. Stuart Ed Alt wrote: This is very straightforward.? The ideal battery is one that has 0 ohms internal resistance and infinite current delivery capability.? This new technology gets you somewhat closer to that ideal.? All it means is that it minimizes power losses due to much lower internal resistance, and reduces limitations that are placed on the performance of the thing you are powering with it.? Even the ideal battery can only deliver as much current into the load as that device will draw based on its own resistance (actually impedance, but we'll keep it simple) Doesn't matter whether it is a motor, a light bulb or whatever.? It's all good... ? ? Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Hoard To: General pattern discussion Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery ? How good would these batteries work in my glow starter?. . . 2009/3/19 Ed Alt No way!?That is simply evidence that your paint needs to be upgraded! ----- Original Message ----- From: Rex To: NSRCA-discussion Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery ? Now I'm just guessing here....? I'm thinking that if you throttle up and the paint strips off the fuse, that's probably a bit too much! ? Rex ? From: joddino at socal.rr.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:10:06 -0700 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery I used to say that an engine is a machine that doesn't make enough power. ?Now I say a motor is also a machine that doesn't make enough power. ? ? Jim ? ? On Mar 19, 2009, at 8:29 AM, J N Hiller wrote: ? Hay Rex how much power do you need? You can do a vertical ROG now. Jim ? ? _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- Keith Hoard Collierville , TN khoard at gmail.com _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ? ?_______________________________________________NSRCA-discussion mailing listNSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.orghttp://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion? _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mups1953 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 20 02:07:58 2009 From: mups1953 at yahoo.com (mike mueller) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 10:07:58 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Mode 1 In-Reply-To: <479321.86118.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <417591.76644.qm@web51006.mail.re2.yahoo.com> ?Mr Park is correct. Mode 1 planes and Mode2 Heli. I flew Mode 1 all my life just like a lot of guys who came up?from old reeds sets. After a long time away from the hobby I tried to fly Mode 2 for a year. Not!!!!! For me it was a wasted year. ?Bob Fortino is a natural Mode 1 flyer. He flys Heli's on Mode 2 and found that the back and forth was so bad that he trained himself to fly Mode 2 on planes. It's taken the better part of 2 years to get back where he was on the plane side. ?Changing Modes is very difficult. I feel confident that Mode1 allows a slight advantage in rolls while Mode2 allows easier rudder corrections. 6 of 1 half dozen of another.? Still it's fun to fly once in a while on another Mode. Keeps you on your toes.?????????????? Mike --- On Fri, 3/20/09, Ihncheol Park wrote: From: Ihncheol Park Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Mode 1 To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Friday, March 20, 2009, 12:15 AM Stu, ? I fly Mode 1 for airplane. Learned to fly Mode 1 since 1982. Started flying heli about?5 years ago with a lot of crashes in?Mode 1.? Switched to?Mode 2 for Heli, so far so good.??I just need to be careful of the throttle stick location and carry 2 transmitters whenever flying both. ? Whenever people ask me, I tell them that I think having rudder/elevator grouped together so Mode 1 is easier for airplane.? heli has aileron/elevator grouped together, so Mode 2. That is just my way and feel comfortable. ? IP From: Stuart Chale To: General pattern discussion Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 8:06:49 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Mode 1 We have had discussions of mode 1 vs 2 and this is not meant to renew them.? But, I have always wanted to try mode 1 and just happened to have a radio that I bought that was in mode 1, thanks Mike.? Trying it on the sim was interesting to say the least.? This near 50 year old is not going to try to make the switch.? I can see where some maneuvers like rolls are made for mode 1 though. I think it could be a lot of fun to get a group of mode 2 fliers and have them all try to fly mode 1 (on a sim)? You wouldn't even need the beer.? Very impressive for those that can switch back and forth between modes.? And a friend said he doesn't fly helis because the inputs sometimes get mixed up when he flies planes :) Stuart _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schale at optonline.net Fri Mar 20 03:46:46 2009 From: schale at optonline.net (Stuart Chale) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 11:46:46 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Mode 1 In-Reply-To: <417591.76644.qm@web51006.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <417591.76644.qm@web51006.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49C3821B.20907@optonline.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chuenkan at comcast.net Fri Mar 20 04:07:54 2009 From: chuenkan at comcast.net (Phil Spelt) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 12:07:54 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Mode 1 In-Reply-To: <49C3821B.20907@optonline.net> References: <417591.76644.qm@web51006.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <49C3821B.20907@optonline.net> Message-ID: <20090320120753.C426F114B0@bridi.netexpress.com> FWIW, at the strong urging of my good flying buddy Ed Hartley -- aka ROHO -- I tried mode 4 on the sim. Everything went as planned 'til it came to landing. THEN, I the $#!^$& hit the fan!!! Later, Ed told me to "just wiggle both sticks..." (Ail & Rud). I have yet to try it that way, but I will stick to mode 2, for now. Maybe, sometime when I get "lots of time"... :-D :-D At 07:46 AM 3/20/2009, Stuart Chale wrote: >I wasn't suggesting any one change or try it with a real plane >unless you are 12 years old and pick up this stuff more quickly :) >It was an interesting experiment though, and something I had wanted >to try, and my 15 year old son who just learned to fly couldn't do any better. >Stuart -->There are only two types of aircraft -- fighters and targets. Phil Spelt, Webmaster & Past President, Knox County Radio Control Society, Inc. URL: http://www.kcrctn.com AMA--1294, Scientific Leader Member, SPA--177 My URL: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/~chuenkan/ (865) 435-1476 v (865) 604-0541 c -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mups1953 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 20 04:32:55 2009 From: mups1953 at yahoo.com (mike mueller) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 12:32:55 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Mode 1 In-Reply-To: <49C3821B.20907@optonline.net> Message-ID: <89245.9933.qm@web51009.mail.re2.yahoo.com> ?Stuart I get what you were saying. I like to get a sport plane up high and hand it over to a Mode 2 guy. It can be pretty funny. Mike --- On Fri, 3/20/09, Stuart Chale wrote: From: Stuart Chale Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Mode 1 To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Friday, March 20, 2009, 6:46 AM I wasn't suggesting any one change or try it with a real plane unless you are 12 years old and pick up this stuff more quickly :) It was an interesting experiment though, and something I had wanted to try, and my 15 year old son who just learned to fly couldn't do any better. Stuart mike mueller wrote: ?Mr Park is correct. Mode 1 planes and Mode2 Heli. I flew Mode 1 all my life just like a lot of guys who came up?from old reeds sets. After a long time away from the hobby I tried to fly Mode 2 for a year. Not!!!!! For me it was a wasted year. ?Bob Fortino is a natural Mode 1 flyer. He flys Heli's on Mode 2 and found that the back and forth was so bad that he trained himself to fly Mode 2 on planes. It's taken the better part of 2 years to get back where he was on the plane side. ?Changing Modes is very difficult. I feel confident that Mode1 allows a slight advantage in rolls while Mode2 allows easier rudder corrections. 6 of 1 half dozen of another.? Still it's fun to fly once in a while on another Mode. Keeps you on your toes.?????????????? Mike --- On Fri, 3/20/09, Ihncheol Park wrote: From: Ihncheol Park Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Mode 1 To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Friday, March 20, 2009, 12:15 AM Stu, ? I fly Mode 1 for airplane. Learned to fly Mode 1 since 1982. Started flying heli about?5 years ago with a lot of crashes in?Mode 1.? Switched to?Mode 2 for Heli, so far so good.??I just need to be careful of the throttle stick location and carry 2 transmitters whenever flying both. ? Whenever people ask me, I tell them that I think having rudder/elevator grouped together so Mode 1 is easier for airplane.? heli has aileron/elevator grouped together, so Mode 2. That is just my way and feel comfortable. ? IP From: Stuart Chale To: General pattern discussion Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 8:06:49 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Mode 1 We have had discussions of mode 1 vs 2 and this is not meant to renew them.? But, I have always wanted to try mode 1 and just happened to have a radio that I bought that was in mode 1, thanks Mike.? Trying it on the sim was interesting to say the least.? This near 50 year old is not going to try to make the switch.? I can see where some maneuvers like rolls are made for mode 1 though. I think it could be a lot of fun to get a group of mode 2 fliers and have them all try to fly mode 1 (on a sim)? You wouldn't even need the beer.? Very impressive for those that can switch back and forth between modes.? And a friend said he doesn't fly helis because the inputs sometimes get mixed up when he flies planes :) Stuart _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpavlick at idseng.com Fri Mar 20 05:02:47 2009 From: jpavlick at idseng.com (John Pavlick) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 13:02:47 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery In-Reply-To: <3A3C3996-772E-4575-9DFE-7489AC60D657@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <206499.37068.qm@web80504.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Yup - heated with ovens and even other more desperate methods. :) Every week there was another "trick" that promised more power AND more longevity. As long as I've been doing this?I can't ever remember the two going hand in hand. Don't get me wrong, I welcome new technology and new techniques as much as anyone. I just prefer to be "cautiously optimistic" and I try to look at all of the facts before jumping on the latest thing. I'm still flying 72MHz and?I just recently gave up my analog cell phone. LOL ? John Pavlick ? BTW - My new cell phone takes nice pictures and the appointment calendar is a big help too. The telephone "feature" doesn't work all that well though. --- On Fri, 3/20/09, James Oddino wrote: From: James Oddino Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Friday, March 20, 2009, 5:27 AM John, you've got to be an?optimist. ?We want it all. ?Who ever dreamed we'd have what we have now back in the NiCd days. The peaking you did was no doubt heating them and lowering the Internal resistance. ?Did anyone ever try just heating them with an oven? ?That's what I do now and I believe it not only gives you better power right off the ground but I believe it is easier on the batteries. ?We'll see how my new packs hold up over time but so far they are looking great. Jim On Mar 19, 2009, at 10:09 PM, John Pavlick wrote: Going back to my "How many of you guys ever raced R/C cars" question - the reason I asked is because if you did you'd already be thinking like Dave. Well, not exactly. I don't?believe anyone can think like Dave! LOL ? Back when I raced, we used NiCADs. Why? Because that's all we had. We had basically 2 kinds: high output / fast charge (SCR) and high?capacity / slow charge (SCE) types. At the risk of oversimplifying - the difference had to do with internal resistance. For stock class we ran the high output type, for modifieds we used the high capacity type. To get Max performance from the high output batteries in stock class we charged them at 1 - 4C, then we re-peaked them before the race at 10 - 30C! Some guys used to charge until the cell vents opened. The result: a super hole-shot, lotsa power, 4 minutes worth of fun. Then we threw the battery pack out. They could only handle this kind of abuse once. You didn't do this every weekend, just for the really big events. OK, if you were spoonsored you did this all the time. :) The high capacity batteries had to be treated differently. Normally you charged at 1-4C. In a 2WD modified car you could expect to get at least a few cycles before you used the pack for practice. If you were "cheap" you'd take a pack that had been used 4 or 5 times, put it on a trickle charger overnight to "re-balance" the cells (sound familiar?) and used it until it dumped on the last lap and cost you a race. If you were sponsored you always had brand new "computer matched" batteries so you didn't have to do this. ? Bottom line: You can't have everything. You're going to trade off something. You need to understand exactly what you're getting with a new technology and if it's worth giving up something that the existing technology might do better. I doubt very much that you'll see a 30C discharge rate + 3C charge rate capable pack that weighs half as much as what we have now AND delivers more usable cycles as well. But?I guess we can dream. VBG ? John Pavlick http://www.idseng.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave To: 'General pattern discussion' Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 9:54 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery The faster you charge, the fewer the cycles you get!! ?Figure cycle life is reduced by about 50% at 3C charge rates. ? Regards, ? Dave ? From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Stuart Chale Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 6:48 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery ? The key in my mind as we already have enough power in a makable weight for a new set of batteries, is the number of cycles you can get.? It the new technology gets us 200 cycles before degradation then I'll take 2 :)? Don't need three any more because they charge faster. Stuart Ed Alt wrote: This is very straightforward.? The ideal battery is one that has 0 ohms internal resistance and infinite current delivery capability.? This new technology gets you somewhat closer to that ideal.? All it means is that it minimizes power losses due to much lower internal resistance, and reduces limitations that are placed on the performance of the thing you are powering with it.? Even the ideal battery can only deliver as much current into the load as that device will draw based on its own resistance (actually impedance, but we'll keep it simple) Doesn't matter whether it is a motor, a light bulb or whatever.? It's all good... ? ? Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Hoard To: General pattern discussion Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery ? How good would these batteries work in my glow starter?. . . 2009/3/19 Ed Alt No way!?That is simply evidence that your paint needs to be upgraded! ----- Original Message ----- From: Rex To: NSRCA-discussion Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery ? Now I'm just guessing here....? I'm thinking that if you throttle up and the paint strips off the fuse, that's probably a bit too much! ? Rex ? From: joddino at socal.rr.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:10:06 -0700 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery I used to say that an engine is a machine that doesn't make enough power. ?Now I say a motor is also a machine that doesn't make enough power. ? ? Jim ? ? On Mar 19, 2009, at 8:29 AM, J N Hiller wrote: ? Hay Rex how much power do you need? You can do a vertical ROG now. Jim ? ? _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- Keith Hoard Collierville , TN khoard at gmail.com _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ? ?_______________________________________________NSRCA-discussion mailing listNSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.orghttp://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion? _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lagrue at hotmail.com Fri Mar 20 05:31:51 2009 From: lagrue at hotmail.com (JEREMY CHINN) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 13:31:51 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Mode 1 In-Reply-To: <49C2EC29.5000803@optonline.net> References: <4EA8E1BC-5B7B-4168-B25C-D09D76FAD153@socal.rr.com> <6792ef120903191515g67aa71a7q27008327a9b233d5@mail.gmail.com> <49C2CBBC.4020909@optonline.net> <49C2EC29.5000803@optonline.net> Message-ID: I started on mode 1 back in the eighties. I flew only Mode 1 until somewhere around the year 2000. Then, at the urging of some other friends, I taught myself Mode 2 as well. No buddy box, no sim, just took the transmitter from a buddy and flew the rest of the flight out.... At fly-ins and other events, I regularly go back and forth on modes all day. I have to throw a mental 'switch' when I flip from one mode to the other..... I still compete on Mode 1, and fly 3D primarily on mode 1, but can fly pattern and sport flying on either without any difficulty. When I tried to learn to fly helis, I tried to teach myself on Mode 2. That was an expensive disaster.... After about 6 months I gave up. Then I tried a heli on Mode1. I taught myself and soloed on the first flight. Unfortunately, as pointed out in someone else's email, some of the more complex heli maneuvers are much easier on mode 2. I've managed to get past that though.... Both modes have their advantages, but neither is 'better'. One genuine positive of flying mode 1 - no one asks to fly my birds...... : ) You want a real challenge? Learn to fly with your toes.... its actually not nearly as hard as it sounds though..... > Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 21:06:49 -0400 > From: schale at optonline.net > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Mode 1 > > We have had discussions of mode 1 vs 2 and this is not meant to renew > them. But, I have always wanted to try mode 1 and just happened to have > a radio that I bought that was in mode 1, thanks Mike. Trying it on the > sim was interesting to say the least. This near 50 year old is not > going to try to make the switch. I can see where some maneuvers like > rolls are made for mode 1 though. > > I think it could be a lot of fun to get a group of mode 2 fliers and > have them all try to fly mode 1 (on a sim) You wouldn't even need the > beer. Very impressive for those that can switch back and forth between > modes. And a friend said he doesn't fly helis because the inputs > sometimes get mixed up when he flies planes :) > > Stuart > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _________________________________________________________________ Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail?. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/LearnMore/personalize.aspx?ocid=TXT_MSGTX_WL_HM_express_032009#colortheme -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mups1953 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 20 05:44:09 2009 From: mups1953 at yahoo.com (mike mueller) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 13:44:09 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Mode 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <323732.70138.qm@web51005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> ?Funny about Mode1 is that in some parts of the world like parts of Asia it's the prefered Mode. Also many in South America, QQ among them are flying it. I don't know why this is but I find it interesting. Mike --- On Fri, 3/20/09, JEREMY CHINN wrote: From: JEREMY CHINN Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Mode 1 To: "NSRCA Mailing List" Date: Friday, March 20, 2009, 8:31 AM #yiv654568416 .hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #yiv654568416 { font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;} I?started on?mode 1 back in the eighties. I flew only Mode 1 until somewhere around the year 2000. Then, at the urging of some other?friends, I taught myself Mode 2 as well. No buddy box, no sim, just took the transmitter from a?buddy and flew the rest of the flight out.... ? At fly-ins and other events, I regularly go back and forth on modes all day. I have to throw a mental 'switch' when I flip from one mode to the other..... I still compete on Mode 1, and fly 3D primarily on mode 1, but can fly pattern?and sport flying on either without any difficulty. ? When I tried to?learn?to fly?helis, I tried to teach myself on?Mode 2. That was an expensive disaster.... After about 6 months I gave up. Then I tried a heli on Mode1. I?taught myself and soloed on the first flight. Unfortunately, as pointed out in someone else's email, some of the more complex heli maneuvers are?much easier on mode 2. I've managed to get?past that though.... ? Both modes have their advantages,?but neither is 'better'. ? One genuine positive of flying mode 1 - no one asks to fly my birds...... : ) ? You want a real challenge? Learn to fly with your toes.... its actually not nearly as hard as it sounds though..... ? > Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 21:06:49 -0400 > From: schale at optonline.net > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Mode 1 > > We have had discussions of mode 1 vs 2 and this is not meant to renew > them. But, I have always wanted to try mode 1 and just happened to have > a radio that I bought that was in mode 1, thanks Mike. Trying it on the > sim was interesting to say the least. This near 50 year old is not > going to try to make the switch. I can see where some maneuvers like > rolls are made for mode 1 though. > > I think it could be a lot of fun to get a group of mode 2 fliers and > have them all try to fly mode 1 (on a sim) You wouldn't even need the > beer. Very impressive for those that can switch back and forth between > modes. And a friend said he doesn't fly helis because the inputs > sometimes get mixed up when he flies planes :) > > Stuart > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail?. See how. _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schale at optonline.net Fri Mar 20 05:55:31 2009 From: schale at optonline.net (Stuart Chale) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 13:55:31 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Mode 1 In-Reply-To: <323732.70138.qm@web51005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <323732.70138.qm@web51005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49C3A04C.5050709@optonline.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From perkinsrx at centurytel.net Fri Mar 20 06:50:19 2009 From: perkinsrx at centurytel.net (W. Eddie Batchelor) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:50:19 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Pack Damage from being dropped Message-ID: <200903201450.n2KEoDUD030589@mail958c35.nsolutionszone.com> While setting up my new bird I foolishly was trying to cut some Velcro while holding one of my brand new F.P 5350 packs. It slipped out of my hand and fell on the concrete floor, resulting in some crumpled foil in 1 corner of the pack. Not enough that I'd describe it as a dent. I feel fortunate that it landed in a position as to not take a HARD hit on that corner BUT What would you guys do now? Use it and monitor it for degradation. Consider it ruined - that's gonna hurt with a new never used pack. Just asking for your opinion as to my options. Eddie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joddino at socal.rr.com Fri Mar 20 06:59:17 2009 From: joddino at socal.rr.com (joddino at socal.rr.com) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:59:17 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery In-Reply-To: <445285.55507.qm@web33007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090320145915.CMQ8Y.473452.root@cdptpa-web27-z02> I still fly my original TrueRC 10C that has about 114 flights as I recall but it is getting tired with internal resistances up around 10 to 12 milliohms. I have a new one that was a replacement for the original "short" TrueRCs but it only has 5 flights. The two "first string" packs are a sample 20C pack from True and a new TP Prolite V2 or whatever it is called. These two packs are really good with IRs in the 2.0 to 3.0 range after about 24 flights each. These packs never drop below 35 volts even at the end of the flight. I found I was consistently exceeding the power spec of the Dualsky 6360 and that is probably why it failed. The answer was to get a Plettenberg that can handle 3500 Watts. It's working great and I will probably get another one. When we get batteries that can hold 40 volts under load at the end of flight we'll want 5000 Watt motors. I love this stuff. Jim O ---- krishlan fitzsimmons wrote: > What packs are you running now Jim? > ? > Heating the packs is the way to go. > > > Chris > ? > ? > ? > > --- On Thu, 3/19/09, James Oddino wrote: > > > From: James Oddino > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery > To: "General pattern discussion" > Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 10:27 PM > > > John, you've got to be an?optimist. ?We want it all. ?Who ever dreamed we'd have what we have now back in the NiCd days. > > > The peaking you did was no doubt heating them and lowering the Internal resistance. ?Did anyone ever try just heating them with an oven? ?That's what I do now and I believe it not only gives you better power right off the ground but I believe it is easier on the batteries. ?We'll see how my new packs hold up over time but so far they are looking great. > > > Jim > > > > > > > > On Mar 19, 2009, at 10:09 PM, John Pavlick wrote: > > > > > > Going back to my "How many of you guys ever raced R/C cars" question - the reason I asked is because if you did you'd already be thinking like Dave. Well, not exactly. I don't?believe anyone can think like Dave! LOL > ? > Back when I raced, we used NiCADs. Why? Because that's all we had. We had basically 2 kinds: high output / fast charge (SCR) and high?capacity / slow charge (SCE) types. At the risk of oversimplifying - the difference had to do with internal resistance. For stock class we ran the high output type, for modifieds we used the high capacity type. To get Max performance from the high output batteries in stock class we charged them at 1 - 4C, then we re-peaked them before the race at 10 - 30C! Some guys used to charge until the cell vents opened. The result: a super hole-shot, lotsa power, 4 minutes worth of fun. Then we threw the battery pack out. They could only handle this kind of abuse once. You didn't do this every weekend, just for the really big events. OK, if you were spoonsored you did this all the time. :) > The high capacity batteries had to be treated differently. Normally you charged at 1-4C. In a 2WD modified car you could expect to get at least a few cycles before you used the pack for practice. If you were "cheap" you'd take a pack that had been used 4 or 5 times, put it on a trickle charger overnight to "re-balance" the cells (sound familiar?) and used it until it dumped on the last lap and cost you a race. If you were sponsored you always had brand new "computer matched" batteries so you didn't have to do this. > ? > Bottom line: You can't have everything. You're going to trade off something. You need to understand exactly what you're getting with a new technology and if it's worth giving up something that the existing technology might do better. I doubt very much that you'll see a 30C discharge rate + 3C charge rate capable pack that weighs half as much as what we have now AND delivers more usable cycles as well. But?I guess we can dream. VBG > ? > John Pavlick > http://www.idseng.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dave > To: 'General pattern discussion' > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 9:54 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery > > > > The faster you charge, the fewer the cycles you get!! ?Figure cycle life is reduced by about 50% at 3C charge rates. > ? > Regards, > ? > Dave > ? > > > > > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Stuart Chale > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 6:48 PM > To: General pattern discussion > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery > ? > The key in my mind as we already have enough power in a makable weight for a new set of batteries, is the number of cycles you can get.? It the new technology gets us 200 cycles before degradation then I'll take 2 :)? Don't need three any more because they charge faster. > Stuart > > Ed Alt wrote: > > This is very straightforward.? The ideal battery is one that has 0 ohms internal resistance and infinite current delivery capability.? This new technology gets you somewhat closer to that ideal.? All it means is that it minimizes power losses due to much lower internal resistance, and reduces limitations that are placed on the performance of the thing you are powering with it.? Even the ideal battery can only deliver as much current into the load as that device will draw based on its own resistance (actually impedance, but we'll keep it simple) Doesn't matter whether it is a motor, a light bulb or whatever.? It's all good... > > ? > > ? > > Ed > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Keith Hoard > > To: General pattern discussion > > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 5:15 PM > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery > > ? > How good would these batteries work in my glow starter?. . . > > 2009/3/19 Ed Alt > > > No way!?That is simply evidence that your paint needs to be upgraded! > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Rex > > To: NSRCA-discussion > > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 4:33 PM > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery > > ? > Now I'm just guessing here....? I'm thinking that if you throttle up and the paint > strips off the fuse, that's probably a bit too much! > ? > Rex > ? > > > > From: joddino at socal.rr.com > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:10:06 -0700 > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery > > I used to say that an engine is a machine that doesn't make enough power. ?Now I say a motor is also a machine that doesn't make enough power. ? > > ? > > Jim > > ? > > ? > > > On Mar 19, 2009, at 8:29 AM, J N Hiller wrote: > > ? > > > > Hay Rex how much power do you need? You can do a vertical ROG now. > > Jim > > ? > ? > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > -- > > Keith Hoard > Collierville , TN > khoard at gmail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ? > > > > ?_______________________________________________NSRCA-discussion mailing listNSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.orghttp://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion? > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion_______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From pamrich47 at hotmail.com Fri Mar 20 07:05:07 2009 From: pamrich47 at hotmail.com (Richard Strickland) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 15:05:07 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Pack Damage from being dropped In-Reply-To: <200903201450.n2KEoDUD030589@mail958c35.nsolutionszone.com> References: <200903201450.n2KEoDUD030589@mail958c35.nsolutionszone.com> Message-ID: I guess I would run it down, charge it and see how the internal resistance looks on that cell. If no difference, then I would check it every few flights and if it remained constant, then I would treat it as any other. This early in the season, though, how big a deal is it to send it back and have that cell replaced? RS From: perkinsrx at centurytel.net To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 09:50:14 -0500 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Pack Damage from being dropped While setting up my new bird I foolishly was trying to cut some Velcro while holding one of my brand new F.P 5350 packs. It slipped out of my hand and fell on the concrete floor, resulting in some crumpled foil in 1 corner of the pack. Not enough that I?d describe it as a dent. I feel fortunate that it landed in a position as to not take a HARD hit on that corner BUT What would you guys do now? Use it and monitor it for degradation. Consider it ruined - that?s gonna hurt with a new never used pack. Just asking for your opinion as to my options. Eddie _________________________________________________________________ Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail?. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/LearnMore/personalize.aspx?ocid=TXT_MSGTX_WL_HM_express_032009#colortheme -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpavlick at idseng.com Fri Mar 20 07:23:58 2009 From: jpavlick at idseng.com (John Pavlick) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 15:23:58 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery In-Reply-To: <20090320145915.CMQ8Y.473452.root@cdptpa-web27-z02> Message-ID: <731349.74172.qm@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "When we get batteries that can hold 40 volts under load at the end of flight we'll want 5000 Watt motors." We already have them - unfortunately they run on gasoline and they're a little on the heavy side. LOL ? John Pavlick --- On Fri, 3/20/09, joddino at socal.rr.com wrote: From: joddino at socal.rr.com Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Friday, March 20, 2009, 2:59 PM I still fly my original TrueRC 10C that has about 114 flights as I recall but it is getting tired with internal resistances up around 10 to 12 milliohms. I have a new one that was a replacement for the original "short" TrueRCs but it only has 5 flights. The two "first string" packs are a sample 20C pack from True and a new TP Prolite V2 or whatever it is called. These two packs are really good with IRs in the 2.0 to 3.0 range after about 24 flights each. These packs never drop below 35 volts even at the end of the flight. I found I was consistently exceeding the power spec of the Dualsky 6360 and that is probably why it failed. The answer was to get a Plettenberg that can handle 3500 Watts. It's working great and I will probably get another one. When we get batteries that can hold 40 volts under load at the end of flight we'll want 5000 Watt motors. I love this stuff. Jim O ---- krishlan fitzsimmons wrote: > What packs are you running now Jim? > ? > Heating the packs is the way to go. > > > Chris > ? > ? > ? > > --- On Thu, 3/19/09, James Oddino wrote: > > > From: James Oddino > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery > To: "General pattern discussion" > Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 10:27 PM > > > John, you've got to be an?optimist. ?We want it all. ?Who ever dreamed we'd have what we have now back in the NiCd days. > > > The peaking you did was no doubt heating them and lowering the Internal resistance. ?Did anyone ever try just heating them with an oven? ?That's what I do now and I believe it not only gives you better power right off the ground but I believe it is easier on the batteries. ?We'll see how my new packs hold up over time but so far they are looking great. > > > Jim > > > > > > > > On Mar 19, 2009, at 10:09 PM, John Pavlick wrote: > > > > > > Going back to my "How many of you guys ever raced R/C cars" question - the reason I asked is because if you did you'd already be thinking like Dave. Well, not exactly. I don't?believe anyone can think like Dave! LOL > ? > Back when I raced, we used NiCADs. Why? Because that's all we had. We had basically 2 kinds: high output / fast charge (SCR) and high?capacity / slow charge (SCE) types. At the risk of oversimplifying - the difference had to do with internal resistance. For stock class we ran the high output type, for modifieds we used the high capacity type. To get Max performance from the high output batteries in stock class we charged them at 1 - 4C, then we re-peaked them before the race at 10 - 30C! Some guys used to charge until the cell vents opened. The result: a super hole-shot, lotsa power, 4 minutes worth of fun. Then we threw the battery pack out. They could only handle this kind of abuse once. You didn't do this every weekend, just for the really big events. OK, if you were spoonsored you did this all the time. :) > The high capacity batteries had to be treated differently. Normally you charged at 1-4C. In a 2WD modified car you could expect to get at least a few cycles before you used the pack for practice. If you were "cheap" you'd take a pack that had been used 4 or 5 times, put it on a trickle charger overnight to "re-balance" the cells (sound familiar?) and used it until it dumped on the last lap and cost you a race. If you were sponsored you always had brand new "computer matched" batteries so you didn't have to do this. > ? > Bottom line: You can't have everything. You're going to trade off something. You need to understand exactly what you're getting with a new technology and if it's worth giving up something that the existing technology might do better. I doubt very much that you'll see a 30C discharge rate + 3C charge rate capable pack that weighs half as much as what we have now AND delivers more usable cycles as well. But?I guess we can dream. VBG > ? > John Pavlick > http://www.idseng.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dave > To: 'General pattern discussion' > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 9:54 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery > > > > The faster you charge, the fewer the cycles you get!! ?Figure cycle life is reduced by about 50% at 3C charge rates. > ? > Regards, > ? > Dave > ? > > > > > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Stuart Chale > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 6:48 PM > To: General pattern discussion > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery > ? > The key in my mind as we already have enough power in a makable weight for a new set of batteries, is the number of cycles you can get.? It the new technology gets us 200 cycles before degradation then I'll take 2 :)? Don't need three any more because they charge faster. > Stuart > > Ed Alt wrote: > > This is very straightforward.? The ideal battery is one that has 0 ohms internal resistance and infinite current delivery capability.? This new technology gets you somewhat closer to that ideal.? All it means is that it minimizes power losses due to much lower internal resistance, and reduces limitations that are placed on the performance of the thing you are powering with it.? Even the ideal battery can only deliver as much current into the load as that device will draw based on its own resistance (actually impedance, but we'll keep it simple) Doesn't matter whether it is a motor, a light bulb or whatever.? It's all good... > > ? > > ? > > Ed > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Keith Hoard > > To: General pattern discussion > > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 5:15 PM > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery > > ? > How good would these batteries work in my glow starter?. . . > > 2009/3/19 Ed Alt > > > No way!?That is simply evidence that your paint needs to be upgraded! > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Rex > > To: NSRCA-discussion > > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 4:33 PM > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery > > ? > Now I'm just guessing here....? I'm thinking that if you throttle up and the paint > strips off the fuse, that's probably a bit too much! > ? > Rex > ? > > > > From: joddino at socal.rr.com > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:10:06 -0700 > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery > > I used to say that an engine is a machine that doesn't make enough power. ?Now I say a motor is also a machine that doesn't make enough power. ? > > ? > > Jim > > ? > > ? > > > On Mar 19, 2009, at 8:29 AM, J N Hiller wrote: > > ? > > > > Hay Rex how much power do you need? You can do a vertical ROG now. > > Jim > > ? > ? > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > -- > > Keith Hoard > Collierville , TN > khoard at gmail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ? > > > > ?_______________________________________________NSRCA-discussion mailing listNSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.orghttp://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion? > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion_______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pamrich47 at hotmail.com Fri Mar 20 07:29:59 2009 From: pamrich47 at hotmail.com (Richard Strickland) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 15:29:59 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery In-Reply-To: <20090320145915.CMQ8Y.473452.root@cdptpa-web27-z02> References: <445285.55507.qm@web33007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20090320145915.CMQ8Y.473452.root@cdptpa-web27-z02> Message-ID: I agree--this is interesting/exciting to be on the threshold of something that we really don't know where it's going--or will eventually end up... What I DO know is we have fairly practical power now if we manage it properly. RS PS--two new sets of batts just came to my desk! > I love this stuff. > > Jim O _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? SkyDrive: Get 25 GB of free online storage. http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_skydrive_032009 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geobet4 at verizon.net Fri Mar 20 08:11:29 2009 From: geobet4 at verizon.net (George W.Kennie) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 16:11:29 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery References: <4EA8E1BC-5B7B-4168-B25C-D09D76FAD153@socal.rr.com><6792ef120903191515g67aa71a7q27008327a9b233d5@mail.gmail.com> <49C2CBBC.4020909@optonline.net> <325303B0FE3542628F8922D930E700F5@davedesktop> <97E81E76-5960-4FE8-943A-FFDE41125F36@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <2A3A4B247BDF401CA12ED4BFABC5E40D@CYBERPOWER> It must take an awful lot of current ! I charged a pak once at 5C and when the charger indicated "Charge Done" the pak was like an Ice cube. There is even a battery vendor now that is recommending 5C charge rates. Take an old pak and experiment and see how far you need to go to generate excessive heat. I don't know if it's going to happen? G. ----- Original Message ----- From: James Oddino To: General pattern discussion Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 1:00 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery I don't know for sure but I would guess it depends on how much heat is generated. With lower internal resistance it could be a push (10C on the new batteries might be equivalent to 1C on our present state of the art packs). Jim On Mar 19, 2009, at 6:54 PM, Dave wrote: The faster you charge, the fewer the cycles you get!! Figure cycle life is reduced by about 50% at 3C charge rates. Regards, Dave ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Stuart Chale Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 6:48 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery The key in my mind as we already have enough power in a makable weight for a new set of batteries, is the number of cycles you can get. It the new technology gets us 200 cycles before degradation then I'll take 2 :) Don't need three any more because they charge faster. Stuart Ed Alt wrote: This is very straightforward. The ideal battery is one that has 0 ohms internal resistance and infinite current delivery capability. This new technology gets you somewhat closer to that ideal. All it means is that it minimizes power losses due to much lower internal resistance, and reduces limitations that are placed on the performance of the thing you are powering with it. Even the ideal battery can only deliver as much current into the load as that device will draw based on its own resistance (actually impedance, but we'll keep it simple) Doesn't matter whether it is a motor, a light bulb or whatever. It's all good... Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Hoard To: General pattern discussion Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery How good would these batteries work in my glow starter?. . . 2009/3/19 Ed Alt No way! That is simply evidence that your paint needs to be upgraded! ----- Original Message ----- From: Rex To: NSRCA-discussion Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery Now I'm just guessing here.... I'm thinking that if you throttle up and the paint strips off the fuse, that's probably a bit too much! Rex ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: joddino at socal.rr.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:10:06 -0700 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: New fast charge battery I used to say that an engine is a machine that doesn't make enough power. Now I say a motor is also a machine that doesn't make enough power. Jim On Mar 19, 2009, at 8:29 AM, J N Hiller wrote: Hay Rex how much power do you need? You can do a vertical ROG now. Jim ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________NSRCA-discussion mailing listNSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.orghttp://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25178 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pnahobbies at sbcglobal.net Fri Mar 20 08:30:47 2009 From: pnahobbies at sbcglobal.net (Ihncheol Park) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 16:30:47 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] JR9303 Throttle cut/hold in airplane software for e-power References: <4EA8E1BC-5B7B-4168-B25C-D09D76FAD153@socal.rr.com> <6792ef120903191515g67aa71a7q27008327a9b233d5@mail.gmail.com> <49C2CBBC.4020909@optonline.net> <49C2EC29.5000803@optonline.net> <479321.86118.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <426640.90427.qm@web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Ok.? I have a question to all those who fly E-power. I've been flying a little of e-powered planes, but mostly foamy and small ones. Now going with 90 size before starting 2m. Is there any way to set throttle cut/hold?in Airplane software for entire range of the throttle? I've mixed throttle to throttle on a switch?to 0 in all 5 point.? It works on idle, but not if I move the throttle stick more than 1/4 throttle.? Motor still turns.? Am I missing something? I don't want that 19 + inch props turn without my approval! Thanks, Ihncheol -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schale at optonline.net Fri Mar 20 08:54:12 2009 From: schale at optonline.net (Stuart Chale) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 16:54:12 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] JR9303 Throttle cut/hold in airplane software for e-power In-Reply-To: <426640.90427.qm@web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <4EA8E1BC-5B7B-4168-B25C-D09D76FAD153@socal.rr.com> <6792ef120903191515g67aa71a7q27008327a9b233d5@mail.gmail.com> <49C2CBBC.4020909@optonline.net> <49C2EC29.5000803@optonline.net> <479321.86118.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <426640.90427.qm@web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49C3CA33.80607@optonline.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pnahobbies at sbcglobal.net Fri Mar 20 09:03:08 2009 From: pnahobbies at sbcglobal.net (Ihncheol Park) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 17:03:08 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] JR9303 Throttle cut/hold in airplane software for e-power References: <4EA8E1BC-5B7B-4168-B25C-D09D76FAD153@socal.rr.com> <6792ef120903191515g67aa71a7q27008327a9b233d5@mail.gmail.com> <49C2CBBC.4020909@optonline.net> <49C2EC29.5000803@optonline.net> <479321.86118.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <426640.90427.qm@web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <49C3CA33.80607@optonline.net> Message-ID: <437236.52836.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Stuart, It is for JR 9303.? The mixing is set for entire range of the throttle stick to have output of 0 on a flip of mixing switch.? It still turns.? It is the only mix that I use switch.? I try to set all other mixes?on permanently.?? Somepeople suggested using Heli software for it, but I don't really like it on airplane. Ihncheol ________________________________ From: Stuart Chale To: General pattern discussion Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 11:54:11 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] JR9303 Throttle cut/hold in airplane software for e-power Depends on the radio, Futaba higher models have throttle hold, or conditions that could be used.? Just set a condition where the throttle is always at 0. You can probably get more specific info if we know the radio.? On another note I did have a throttle hold set to a switch, rarely used it and forgot about it.? Added a mix assigned to the same switch (14MZ) and when activated the throttle well you figured it out.? Damaged the plane on a dead stick.? Even though I unflipped the switch what I didn't remember is that the throttle stick had to be cycled back to 0 to reset it, a safety feature preventing you from accidentally flipping the throttle hold off with the throttle advanced.? I no longer use a throttle hold. Stuart Ihncheol Park wrote: Ok.? I have a question to all those who fly E-power. I've been flying a little of e-powered planes, but mostly foamy and small ones. Now going with 90 size before starting 2m. Is there any way to set throttle cut/hold?in Airplane software for entire range of the throttle? I've mixed throttle to throttle on a switch?to 0 in all 5 point.? It works on idle, but not if I move the throttle stick more than 1/4 throttle.? Motor still turns.? Am I missing something? I don't want that 19 + inch props turn without my approval! Thanks, Ihncheol ________________________________ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From xaviermouraux at yahoo.com Fri Mar 20 09:09:52 2009 From: xaviermouraux at yahoo.com (Xavier Mouraux) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 17:09:52 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] JR9303 Throttle cut/hold in airplane software for e-power Message-ID: <74015.53034.qm@web38908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I use a simple mix and the gear switch on a DX7 so it should work similarly on the 9303. The mix is trottle-trottle with -125 travel and also -125 offset. Setting the offset was important to make it work. The switch stops the motor at any position of the trottle. Xavier --- On Fri, 3/20/09, Ihncheol Park wrote: > From: Ihncheol Park > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] JR9303 Throttle cut/hold in airplane software for e-power > To: "General pattern discussion" > Date: Friday, March 20, 2009, 9:30 AM > Ok.? I have a question to > all those who fly E-power. > I've been flying a little of e-powered planes, but > mostly foamy and small ones. > Now going with 90 size before starting 2m. > ? > Is there any way to set throttle cut/hold?in > Airplane software for entire range of the throttle? > I've mixed throttle to throttle on a > switch?to 0 in all 5 point.? It works on idle, but > not if I move the throttle stick more than 1/4 > throttle.? Motor still turns.? > ? > Am I missing something? > ? > I don't want that 19 + inch props turn without my > approval! > ? > Thanks, > ? > Ihncheol > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From verne at twmi.rr.com Fri Mar 20 09:57:40 2009 From: verne at twmi.rr.com (verne at twmi.rr.com) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 17:57:40 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Pack Damage from being dropped In-Reply-To: <200903201450.n2KEoDUD030589@mail958c35.nsolutionszone.com> Message-ID: <20090320175737.2BQNU.360353.root@hrndva-web11-z01> Eddie, I flew all last year with a pack like that with no problems. Keep a very close eye on it the first few times you charge it. If it's like mine was, the balancer will be working a little harder on the damaged cell, but that's about it. Hope this helps! Verne Koester ---- "W. Eddie Batchelor" wrote: > While setting up my new bird I foolishly was trying to cut some Velcro while > holding one of my brand new F.P 5350 packs. > > It slipped out of my hand and fell on the concrete floor, resulting in some > crumpled foil in 1 corner of the pack. Not enough that I'd describe it as a > dent. > > I feel fortunate that it landed in a position as to not take a HARD hit on > that corner BUT What would you guys do now? > > > > Use it and monitor it for degradation. > > Consider it ruined - that's gonna hurt with a new never used pack. > > > > Just asking for your opinion as to my options. > > > > Eddie > From troy at troynewman.net Fri Mar 20 11:09:55 2009 From: troy at troynewman.net (Troy Newman) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 19:09:55 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] JR9303 Throttle cut/hold in airplanesoftware for e-power References: <4EA8E1BC-5B7B-4168-B25C-D09D76FAD153@socal.rr.com><6792ef120903191515g67aa71a7q27008327a9b233d5@mail.gmail.com><49C2CBBC.4020909@optonline.net> <49C2EC29.5000803@optonline.net><479321.86118.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><426640.90427.qm@web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><49C3CA33.80607@optonline.net> <437236.52836.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: two ways to do it. type 1 One go into your throttle curve and seta switch that will give you a Curve POS0 and curve POS1 set one of those curves to all Zero values. just run them all down to zero...this will disable the throttle stick. You are fooling the throttle into following a new curve...one that drives the servo to zero throttle and doesn't change as the stick moves up and down. type 2 The throttle to throttle mix works...but here is what you are doing in the logic. Throttle to throttle mix says take the current throttle stick position and mix a % of throttle to it. So if you had a mix value of -5% and your throttle stick was at say 35% the mix would take the 35% and subtract the -5% from it. So the output value would be 30% NET. The way you have it setup now with a 0% at each point you are saying take the current stick position and add or subtract ZERO from it. So you are not doing anything. To make this option work....do this. Don't use a curve mix. Use a normal linear mix. Set the values at -125% or even -150% if they will go that high....I don't have my 9303 in front of me right now. This will take the current position of the throttle and subtracts out all values and the throttle should not move. You may need to mess with the stick position value as it appears with your everything works below 1/4 throttle statement means you probably changed this from the default. The stick pos or thro stick function on these mixes allows the mix to turn on or off or change from one mix value to another at a given throttle stick position. Its basically setting the inflection point where the throttle stick activates the mix. If you thro stk value at 1/4 throttle stick then this would make the mix change from POS0 to POS1 at that throttle stick location. This allows you to play with this type of mixing in order to customize it even more than a simple on/off. Example is you can have different mix settings based on your throttle stick location. If you want 3%up elevator with rudder for knife edge. You can use the throttle stick position to change it to 8%up elevator when the throttle is below say 10% and have the same 3% knife edge mix when the throttle is above 10% This allows you to have really 2 mixes or rather mix values built into one mix....Or you can leave one value as ZERO and this will make the mix turn on or off at that point just like it was a switch. After all this is said I prefer the throttle curve method I suggested at first. This is type 1 if you have Q's send me a line and I'll work it out with you. I can get my 9303 when I get home and walk you through it. Troy Newman Team Horizon Hobby / Team JR ________________________________ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org on behalf of Ihncheol Park Sent: Fri 3/20/2009 10:03 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] JR9303 Throttle cut/hold in airplanesoftware for e-power Stuart, It is for JR 9303. The mixing is set for entire range of the throttle stick to have output of 0 on a flip of mixing switch. It still turns. It is the only mix that I use switch. I try to set all other mixes on permanently. Somepeople suggested using Heli software for it, but I don't really like it on airplane. Ihncheol ________________________________ From: Stuart Chale To: General pattern discussion Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 11:54:11 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] JR9303 Throttle cut/hold in airplane software for e-power Depends on the radio, Futaba higher models have throttle hold, or conditions that could be used. Just set a condition where the throttle is always at 0. You can probably get more specific info if we know the radio. On another note I did have a throttle hold set to a switch, rarely used it and forgot about it. Added a mix assigned to the same switch (14MZ) and when activated the throttle well you figured it out. Damaged the plane on a dead stick. Even though I unflipped the switch what I didn't remember is that the throttle stick had to be cycled back to 0 to reset it, a safety feature preventing you from accidentally flipping the throttle hold off with the throttle advanced. I no longer use a throttle hold. Stuart Ihncheol Park wrote: Ok. I have a question to all those who fly E-power. I've been flying a little of e-powered planes, but mostly foamy and small ones. Now going with 90 size before starting 2m. Is there any way to set throttle cut/hold in Airplane software for entire range of the throttle? I've mixed throttle to throttle on a switch to 0 in all 5 point. It works on idle, but not if I move the throttle stick more than 1/4 throttle. Motor still turns. Am I missing something? I don't want that 19 + inch props turn without my approval! Thanks, Ihncheol ________________________________ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 9600 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mtliprie at centurytel.net Sat Mar 21 05:55:07 2009 From: mtliprie at centurytel.net (MATT LIPRIE) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 13:55:07 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] JR 9303 for sale Message-ID: <9472A0541710493A935241F461434596@deonna> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mtliprie at centurytel.net Sat Mar 21 06:26:07 2009 From: mtliprie at centurytel.net (MATT LIPRIE) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 14:26:07 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] JR 9303 For sale Message-ID: <1A974C916129461494C1604A9F523643@deonna> Guys, I have a JR 9303 ,72 megahurtz transmitter that I will not be using anymore since I bought a 12X... It already has a scan select module on it, and I am selling it with two pcm scan select JR recievers. It is all in good condition. Matt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billglaze at bellsouth.net Sat Mar 21 06:30:03 2009 From: billglaze at bellsouth.net (billglaze) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 14:30:03 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] JR 9303 For sale References: <1A974C916129461494C1604A9F523643@deonna> Message-ID: <002a01c9aa31$84465110$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> Matt: What's your off-list email address? billglaze at bellsouth.net ----- Original Message ----- From: MATT LIPRIE To: MATTS NSRCA Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 10:00 AM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] JR 9303 For sale Guys, I have a JR 9303 ,72 megahurtz transmitter that I will not be using anymore since I bought a 12X... It already has a scan select module on it, and I am selling it with two pcm scan select JR recievers. It is all in good condition. Matt ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From verne at twmi.rr.com Sat Mar 21 21:56:58 2009 From: verne at twmi.rr.com (Verne Koester) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 05:56:58 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Toledo Judging Seminar Message-ID: <1F60465633864C8C9869B5C58CCEFD65@Vinnie> Just wondering if anyone is planning a Judging Seminar at Toledo? Tony????? Verne Koester -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel.hudock at yahoo.com Sun Mar 22 06:23:08 2009 From: daniel.hudock at yahoo.com (Daniel Hudock) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 14:23:08 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Boxer .60 plans Message-ID: <468802.90992.qm@web111001.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hello all. I am looking for Boxer .60 plans, or something that would be good with a Hanno Special/18 inch long tuned pipe. (I am building the Hanno from correct parts I've been accumulating, and have an ES carbon fiber pipe. I still need an exhaust header for the motor too). I noticed a Summit III on ebay and I watch RCuniverse for things too. Thanks in advance -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jaqfly at prodigy.net Sun Mar 22 06:30:05 2009 From: jaqfly at prodigy.net (Jim Quinn) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 14:30:05 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] D1 Shirts In-Reply-To: <468802.90992.qm@web111001.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <468802.90992.qm@web111001.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <209848.27516.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Last call for D1 shirts. I will be?signing the contract with AMA?on Monday. If you still haven't ordered a beautiful D1 shirt call me today, Sunday, March 22 at 315.292.0309. ? Jim Q. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From d_bodary at yahoo.com Sun Mar 22 06:56:09 2009 From: d_bodary at yahoo.com (Dennis Bodary) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 14:56:09 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Boxer .60 plans In-Reply-To: <468802.90992.qm@web111001.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <95265.5557.qm@web51705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I've got some plans for a Gitano. They were RCM plans. Can't remember the year. Maybe 94 --- On Sun, 3/22/09, Daniel Hudock wrote: From: Daniel Hudock Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Boxer .60 plans To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Sunday, March 22, 2009, 10:23 AM Hello all. I am looking for Boxer .60 plans, or something that would be good with a Hanno Special/18 inch long tuned pipe. (I am building the Hanno from correct parts I've been accumulating, and have an ES carbon fiber pipe. I still need an exhaust header for the motor too). I noticed a Summit III on ebay and I watch RCuniverse for things too. Thanks in advance _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lightfoot at sc.rr.com Sun Mar 22 11:02:11 2009 From: lightfoot at sc.rr.com (Jay Marshall) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 19:02:11 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] JR9303 Throttle cut/hold in airplane softwarefor e-power In-Reply-To: <426640.90427.qm@web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <604679D77E2D4133AD0C0F574B73D5F5@jaysdesktop> Use an MPI safety plug to insure that everything is ready before the prop turns. Jay Marshall -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ihncheol Park Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 12:31 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] JR9303 Throttle cut/hold in airplane softwarefor e-power Ok. I have a question to all those who fly E-power. I've been flying a little of e-powered planes, but mostly foamy and small ones. Now going with 90 size before starting 2m. Is there any way to set throttle cut/hold in Airplane software for entire range of the throttle? I've mixed throttle to throttle on a switch to 0 in all 5 point. It works on idle, but not if I move the throttle stick more than 1/4 throttle. Motor still turns. Am I missing something? I don't want that 19 + inch props turn without my approval! Thanks, Ihncheol -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pnahobbies at sbcglobal.net Sun Mar 22 11:40:38 2009 From: pnahobbies at sbcglobal.net (Ihncheol Park) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 19:40:38 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] JR9303 Throttle cut/hold in airplanesoftware for e-power References: <4EA8E1BC-5B7B-4168-B25C-D09D76FAD153@socal.rr.com><6792ef120903191515g67aa71a7q27008327a9b233d5@mail.gmail.com><49C2CBBC.4020909@optonline.net> <49C2EC29.5000803@optonline.net><479321.86118.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><426640.90427.qm@web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><49C3CA33.80607@optonline.net> <437236.52836.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <874653.35416.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> For those that may have interest in the result.? I got the result with Type 2 listed below. I used PMix 3 : Throttle to Throttle.? Pos 0 with 0%/0%, Pos 1 with -100%/-100%.? -200% Offset. Switch?was set for mix switch.? Now I can cut the engine at any throttle.? With a flip of the mixing switch, motor will not turn at any throttle. Somehow, I still can't make the Type 1 to work.? The motor still turn at low RPM wtih POS1 values set to all 0.? POS0 has been set to curve that I wanted. Thanks to all those who replied. Ihncheol ________________________________ From: Troy Newman To: General pattern discussion Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 2:09:50 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] JR9303 Throttle cut/hold in airplanesoftware for e-power two ways to do it. type 1 One go into your throttle curve and seta? switch that will give you a? Curve POS0 and curve POS1 set one of those curves to all Zero values. just run them all down to zero...this will disable the throttle stick. You are fooling the throttle into following a new curve...one that drives the servo to zero throttle and doesn't change as the stick moves up and down. type 2 The throttle to throttle mix works...but here is what you are doing in the logic. Throttle to throttle mix says take the current throttle stick position and mix a % of throttle to it. So if you had a mix value of -5% and your throttle stick was at say 35% the mix would take the 35% and subtract the -5% from it. So the output value would be 30% NET. The way you have it setup now with a 0% at each point you are saying take the current stick position and add or subtract ZERO from it. So you are not doing anything. To make this option work....do this. Don't use a curve mix. Use a normal linear mix. Set the values at -125% or even -150% if they will go that high....I don't have my 9303 in front of me right now. This will take the current position of the throttle and subtracts out all values and the throttle should not move. You may need to mess with the stick position value as it appears with your everything works below 1/4 throttle statement means you probably changed this from the default. The stick pos or thro stick function on these mixes allows the mix to turn on or off or change from one mix value to another at a given throttle stick position. Its basically setting the inflection point where the throttle stick activates the mix. If you thro stk value at 1/4 throttle stick then this would make the mix change from POS0 to POS1 at that throttle stick location. This allows you to play with this type of mixing in order to customize it even more than a simple on/off. Example is you can have different mix settings based on your throttle stick location. If you want 3%up elevator with rudder for knife edge. You can use the throttle stick position to change it to 8%up elevator when the throttle is below say 10% and have the same 3% knife edge mix when the throttle is above 10% This allows you to have really 2 mixes or rather mix values built into one mix....Or you can leave one value as ZERO and this will make the mix turn on or off at that point just like it was a switch. After all this is said I prefer the throttle curve method I suggested at first. This is type 1 if you have Q's send me a line and I'll work it out with you. I can get my 9303 when I get home and walk you through it. Troy Newman Team Horizon Hobby / Team JR ________________________________ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org on behalf of Ihncheol Park Sent: Fri 3/20/2009 10:03 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] JR9303 Throttle cut/hold in airplanesoftware for e-power Stuart, It is for JR 9303.? The mixing is set for entire range of the throttle stick to have output of 0 on a flip of mixing switch.? It still turns.? It is the only mix that I use switch.? I try to set all other mixes on permanently.? Somepeople suggested using Heli software for it, but I don't really like it on airplane. Ihncheol ________________________________ From: Stuart Chale To: General pattern discussion Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 11:54:11 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] JR9303 Throttle cut/hold in airplane software for e-power Depends on the radio, Futaba higher models have throttle hold, or conditions that could be used.? Just set a condition where the throttle is always at 0. You can probably get more specific info if we know the radio.? On another note I did have a throttle hold set to a switch, rarely used it and forgot about it.? Added a mix assigned to the same switch (14MZ) and when activated the throttle well you figured it out.? Damaged the plane on a dead stick.? Even though I unflipped the switch what I didn't remember is that the throttle stick had to be cycled back to 0 to reset it, a safety feature preventing you from accidentally flipping the throttle hold off with the throttle advanced.? I no longer use a throttle hold. Stuart Ihncheol Park wrote: ??? Ok.? I have a question to all those who fly E-power. ??? I've been flying a little of e-powered planes, but mostly foamy and small ones. ??? Now going with 90 size before starting 2m. ??? ??? Is there any way to set throttle cut/hold in Airplane software for entire range of the throttle? ??? I've mixed throttle to throttle on a switch to 0 in all 5 point.? It works on idle, but not if I move the throttle stick more than 1/4 throttle.? Motor still turns. ??? ??? Am I missing something? ??? ??? I don't want that 19 + inch props turn without my approval! ??? ??? Thanks, ??? ??? Ihncheol ??? ________________________________ ??? _______________________________________________ ??? NSRCA-discussion mailing list ??? NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org ??? http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnhiller at earthlink.net Sun Mar 22 13:35:31 2009 From: jnhiller at earthlink.net (J N Hiller) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 21:35:31 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] JR9303 Throttle cut/hold in airplanesoftwarefor e-power In-Reply-To: <874653.35416.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I don't know anything about JR could it be a sub-trim offset. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Ihncheol Park Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 12:41 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] JR9303 Throttle cut/hold in airplanesoftwarefor e-power For those that may have interest in the result. I got the result with Type 2 listed below. I used PMix 3 : Throttle to Throttle. Pos 0 with 0%/0%, Pos 1 with -100%/-100%. -200% Offset. Switch was set for mix switch. Now I can cut the engine at any throttle. With a flip of the mixing switch, motor will not turn at any throttle. Somehow, I still can't make the Type 1 to work. The motor still turn at low RPM wtih POS1 values set to all 0. POS0 has been set to curve that I wanted. Thanks to all those who replied. Ihncheol _____ From: Troy Newman To: General pattern discussion Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 2:09:50 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] JR9303 Throttle cut/hold in airplanesoftware for e-power two ways to do it. type 1 One go into your throttle curve and seta switch that will give you a Curve POS0 and curve POS1 set one of those curves to all Zero values. just run them all down to zero...this will disable the throttle stick. You are fooling the throttle into following a new curve...one that drives the servo to zero throttle and doesn't change as the stick moves up and down. type 2 The throttle to throttle mix works...but here is what you are doing in the logic. Throttle to throttle mix says take the current throttle stick position and mix a % of throttle to it. So if you had a mix value of -5% and your throttle stick was at say 35% the mix would take the 35% and subtract the -5% from it. So the output value would be 30% NET. The way you have it setup now with a 0% at each point you are saying take the current stick position and add or subtract ZERO from it. So you are not doing anything. To make this option work....do this. Don't use a curve mix. Use a normal linear mix. Set the values at -125% or even -150% if they will go that high....I don't have my 9303 in front of me right now. This will take the current position of the throttle and subtracts out all values and the throttle should not move. You may need to mess with the stick position value as it appears with your everything works below 1/4 throttle statement means you probably changed this from the default. The stick pos or thro stick function on these mixes allows the mix to turn on or off or change from one mix value to another at a given throttle stick position. Its basically setting the inflection point where the throttle stick activates the mix. If you thro stk value at 1/4 throttle stick then this would make the mix change from POS0 to POS1 at that throttle stick location. This allows you to play with this type of mixing in order to customize it even more than a simple on/off. Example is you can have different mix settings based on your throttle stick location. If you want 3%up elevator with rudder for knife edge. You can use the throttle stick position to change it to 8%up elevator when the throttle is below say 10% and have the same 3% knife edge mix when the throttle is above 10% This allows you to have really 2 mixes or rather mix values built into one mix....Or you can leave one value as ZERO and this will make the mix turn on or off at that point just like it was a switch. After all this is said I prefer the throttle curve method I suggested at first. This is type 1 if you have Q's send me a line and I'll work it out with you. I can get my 9303 when I get home and walk you through it. Troy Newman Team Horizon Hobby / Team JR ________________________________ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org on behalf of Ihncheol Park Sent: Fri 3/20/2009 10:03 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] JR9303 Throttle cut/hold in airplanesoftware for e-power Stuart, It is for JR 9303. The mixing is set for entire range of the throttle stick to have output of 0 on a flip of mixing switch. It still turns. It is the only mix that I use switch. I try to set all other mixes on permanently. Somepeople suggested using Heli software for it, but I don't really like it on airplane. Ihncheol ________________________________ From: Stuart Chale < schale at optonline.net > To: General pattern discussion < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 11:54:11 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] JR9303 Throttle cut/hold in airplane software for e-power Depends on the radio, Futaba higher models have throttle hold, or conditions that could be used. Just set a condition where the throttle is always at 0. You can probably get more specific info if we know the radio. On another note I did have a throttle hold set to a switch, rarely used it and forgot about it. Added a mix assigned to the same switch (14MZ) and when activated the throttle well you figured it out. Damaged the plane on a dead stick. Even though I unflipped the switch what I didn't remember is that the throttle stick had to be cycled back to 0 to reset it, a safety feature preventing you from accidentally flipping the throttle hold off with the throttle advanced. I no longer use a throttle hold. Stuart Ihncheol Park wrote: Ok. I have a question to all those who fly E-power. I've been flying a little of e-powered planes, but mostly foamy and small ones. Now going with 90 size before starting 2m. Is there any way to set throttle cut/hold in Airplane software for entire range of the throttle? I've mixed throttle to throttle on a switch to 0 in all 5 point. It works on idle, but not if I move the throttle stick more than 1/4 throttle. Motor still turns. Am I missing something? I don't want that 19 + inch props turn without my approval! Thanks, Ihncheol ________________________________ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From troy at troynewman.net Sun Mar 22 14:22:19 2009 From: troy at troynewman.net (Troy Newman) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 22:22:19 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] JR9303 Throttle cut/hold in airplanesoftwarefor e-power In-Reply-To: <874653.35416.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <4EA8E1BC-5B7B-4168-B25C-D09D76FAD153@socal.rr.com><6792ef120903191515g67aa71a7q27008327a9b233d5@mail.gmail.com><49C2CBBC.4020909@optonline.net><49C2EC29.5000803@optonline.net><479321.86118.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><426640.90427.qm@web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><49C3CA33.80607@optonline.net><437236.52836.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <874653.35416.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: When the throttle curve menu is entered you have a 3 point curve. The middle needs to be set to zero% and both the L and H points needs to also be set to zero. I just set it up. Go to sw select, I chose the mix switch. Leave STK at INH otherwise you will be switch from curve POS0 and curve POS1 at a certain point on the throttle stick. This is probably your problem. The built in throttle curve program has the ability to use the throttle stick as a switch to change curves. This is why you have the option to set the stick position. LEAVE it at INH or it will cause you to change from POS0 and POS 1.... Then at the bottom you will see the "IN" and "OUT" The In is the stick position. The Out is the servo or in your case speed controller output position. When setup properly the "IN" will move from 0 to 100 as the throttle stick moves. But the "OUT" will stay at zero. Then its programmed properly. Next is you can look up at the top next to the [thro curve] it will have either a 0 or a 1 this tells you which curve you are in at the time. So do two things to make sure its programmed properly. Flip the switch you choose in my case it was the mix switch. The ) or 1 at the top will change. Letting you know which curve the radio is following at the time. Next is with the switch in the properly position for your "kill/thro hold" Move the throttle still up and down and make sure the "OUT" doesn't move....If it doesn't move off zero then its programmed correctly. There is one thing that will affect the end point at idle and that is throttle trim. Even with the mix in place the throttle trim will still work...and if you move the trim up the motor might turn depending on your speed controller settings. So be aware of this. To disable the throttle trim....go into the setup menu....Hold the "ENT" and turn the radio on. Under Trim step you will find the throttle trim sensitivity..Ste this to zero % and the throttle trim will be turned off. In an electric you should not need that trim anyway. There are ways you make sure its setup with the curve and still have a throttle trim if you want it but it will require you to program your speed controller for a fixed low position on the throttle rather than an auto. Auto means that when you power up the controller the speed controller takes the lowest point it sees at the bottom.....If it is fixed in the program you now adjust your ATV (travel volume) to get the motor to turn where you want it to. Another option is to setup the curve at zero and throttle trim at zero control and use a thro to thro mix to get your perfect idle...again the controller would have to be in a "Fixed" program option rather than auto....or you would have your "Kill" switch active when you power the controller and arm it...and then you flip "kill" switch to the run position and the thro to thro mix is adjusted to give you the idle you want. This is how I have setup radios for guys flying Futaba radios with all digital trims. If you make the switch be the same as your kill just the other position of the switch then it's a no brainer....kill and run positions...Take it off kill and the motor idles where you want. Put it on kill and the throttle stick and trim are disabled. The higher end radios like the 12X have a throttle hold function...you just turn it on and it drives the throttle to your preset position and keeps it there no matter what the trim or stick do. You can create the same function in the 9303 just not as elegant. As I said before contact me offlist and I will walk you through it on the phone. It will take about 2mins' Troy From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ihncheol Park Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 12:41 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] JR9303 Throttle cut/hold in airplanesoftwarefor e-power For those that may have interest in the result. I got the result with Type 2 listed below. I used PMix 3 : Throttle to Throttle. Pos 0 with 0%/0%, Pos 1 with -100%/-100%. -200% Offset. Switch was set for mix switch. Now I can cut the engine at any throttle. With a flip of the mixing switch, motor will not turn at any throttle. Somehow, I still can't make the Type 1 to work. The motor still turn at low RPM wtih POS1 values set to all 0. POS0 has been set to curve that I wanted. Thanks to all those who replied. Ihncheol ________________________________ From: Troy Newman To: General pattern discussion Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 2:09:50 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] JR9303 Throttle cut/hold in airplanesoftware for e-power two ways to do it. type 1 One go into your throttle curve and seta switch that will give you a Curve POS0 and curve POS1 set one of those curves to all Zero values. just run them all down to zero...this will disable the throttle stick. You are fooling the throttle into following a new curve...one that drives the servo to zero throttle and doesn't change as the stick moves up and down. type 2 The throttle to throttle mix works...but here is what you are doing in the logic. Throttle to throttle mix says take the current throttle stick position and mix a % of throttle to it. So if you had a mix value of -5% and your throttle stick was at say 35% the mix would take the 35% and subtract the -5% from it. So the output value would be 30% NET. The way you have it setup now with a 0% at each point you are saying take the current stick position and add or subtract ZERO from it. So you are not doing anything. To make this option work....do this. Don't use a curve mix. Use a normal linear mix. Set the values at -125% or even -150% if they will go that high....I don't have my 9303 in front of me right now. This will take the current position of the throttle and subtracts out all values and the throttle should not move. You may need to mess with the stick position value as it appears with your everything works below 1/4 throttle statement means you probably changed this from the default. The stick pos or thro stick function on these mixes allows the mix to turn on or off or change from one mix value to another at a given throttle stick position. Its basically setting the inflection point where the throttle stick activates the mix. If you thro stk value at 1/4 throttle stick then this would make the mix change from POS0 to POS1 at that throttle stick location. This allows you to play with this type of mixing in order to customize it even more than a simple on/off. Example is you can have different mix settings based on your throttle stick location. If you want 3%up elevator with rudder for knife edge. You can use the throttle stick position to change it to 8%up elevator when the throttle is below say 10% and have the same 3% knife edge mix when the throttle is above 10% This allows you to have really 2 mixes or rather mix values built into one mix....Or you can leave one value as ZERO and this will make the mix turn on or off at that point just like it was a switch. After all this is said I prefer the throttle curve method I suggested at first. This is type 1 if you have Q's send me a line and I'll work it out with you. I can get my 9303 when I get home and walk you through it. Troy Newman Team Horizon Hobby / Team JR ________________________________ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org on behalf of Ihncheol Park Sent: Fri 3/20/2009 10:03 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] JR9303 Throttle cut/hold in airplanesoftware for e-power Stuart, It is for JR 9303. The mixing is set for entire range of the throttle stick to have output of 0 on a flip of mixing switch. It still turns. It is the only mix that I use switch. I try to set all other mixes on permanently. Somepeople suggested using Heli software for it, but I don't really like it on airplane. Ihncheol ________________________________ From: Stuart Chale To: General pattern discussion Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 11:54:11 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] JR9303 Throttle cut/hold in airplane software for e-power Depends on the radio, Futaba higher models have throttle hold, or conditions that could be used. Just set a condition where the throttle is always at 0. You can probably get more specific info if we know the radio. On another note I did have a throttle hold set to a switch, rarely used it and forgot about it. Added a mix assigned to the same switch (14MZ) and when activated the throttle well you figured it out. Damaged the plane on a dead stick. Even though I unflipped the switch what I didn't remember is that the throttle stick had to be cycled back to 0 to reset it, a safety feature preventing you from accidentally flipping the throttle hold off with the throttle advanced. I no longer use a throttle hold. Stuart Ihncheol Park wrote: Ok. I have a question to all those who fly E-power. I've been flying a little of e-powered planes, but mostly foamy and small ones. Now going with 90 size before starting 2m. Is there any way to set throttle cut/hold in Airplane software for entire range of the throttle? I've mixed throttle to throttle on a switch to 0 in all 5 point. It works on idle, but not if I move the throttle stick more than 1/4 throttle. Motor still turns. Am I missing something? I don't want that 19 + inch props turn without my approval! Thanks, Ihncheol ________________________________ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From astafford at swtexas.net Sun Mar 22 14:26:05 2009 From: astafford at swtexas.net (Archie Stafford) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 22:26:05 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Sale In-Reply-To: <200902040208.n1428ugO023541@mail962c35.nsolutionszone.com> References: <246662.86916.qm@web83814.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <200902040208.n1428ugO023541@mail962c35.nsolutionszone.com> Message-ID: <00de01c9ab3d$2f5871d0$8e095570$@net> Selling for a local club member. 2 - JR 9303 2.4 Transmitters. He is moving up to a 12X. I've tried to talk him into switching to Futaba..but hasn't worked yet. He is just selling the TX's. Both are fresh back from Horizon with a clean bill of health. 400 each shipped. Arch -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rob at koolsoft.com Mon Mar 23 10:56:28 2009 From: rob at koolsoft.com (Robert L. Beaubien) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 18:56:28 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Riverside, CA contest pre-registration online Message-ID: Pre-registration for the upcoming Riverside, CA contest is online. Get it while its hot. Contest Flyer: http://www.patternflying.net/NewsDetailPage.aspx?ID=33 Pre Registration: http://www.patternflying.net/TempRegistrationPage.aspx - Robert Beaubien - Sr. Software Architect - Kool Software LLC - "No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pamrich47 at hotmail.com Mon Mar 23 11:19:54 2009 From: pamrich47 at hotmail.com (Richard Strickland) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 19:19:54 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Riverside, CA contest pre-registration online In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: (OFF TOPIC) Any of you guys going to the "Legends of Riverside" thing this weekend? I thought about it--but you can't do everything your interests take you. For local racing nuts--might be hard to pass up... RS Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 11:56:24 -0700 From: rob at koolsoft.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org; nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Riverside, CA contest pre-registration online Pre-registration for the upcoming Riverside, CA contest is online. Get it while its hot. Contest Flyer: http://www.patternflying.net/NewsDetailPage.aspx?ID=33 Pre Registration: http://www.patternflying.net/TempRegistrationPage.aspx - Robert Beaubien - Sr. Software Architect - Kool Software LLC - "No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced." _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_70faster_032009 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rdpee at juno.com Mon Mar 23 14:00:15 2009 From: rdpee at juno.com (rdpee at juno.com) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 22:00:15 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Boxer .60 plans Message-ID: <20090323.175900.15183.0@webmail17.dca.untd.com> Daniel: If your interested I have a new still in the shipping tube set of Boxer 60 plans. I purchased them some time back but never got around to building it. There yours for $15.00 plus shipping, let me know. Ralph D Perillo rdpee at juno.com NSRCA 440 ____________________________________________________________ Click now for low prices on a huge selection of quality gift bags! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTFa6hGhbbPv0eFW2VkClgUd9gZu907gMWMBFOh6wA9cQbYrEmLguU/ From daniel.hudock at yahoo.com Mon Mar 23 17:09:35 2009 From: daniel.hudock at yahoo.com (Daniel Hudock) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 01:09:35 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Boxer .60 plans In-Reply-To: <20090323.175900.15183.0@webmail17.dca.untd.com> References: <20090323.175900.15183.0@webmail17.dca.untd.com> Message-ID: <394233.23368.qm@web111005.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Ralph Yes, Id like to buy them. To calculate shipping, I live in Grosse Pointe, Mi 48230 Let me know the total and where to send it to, and I'll get it going. Thanks! P.S. I'll be going to the Toledo Expo in April, just in case you are a mid-westerner and are going too, I could? pick them up there? ________________________________ From: "rdpee at juno.com" To: d_bodary at yahoo.com; nsrca-discussion at lists..nsrca.org Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 5:59:00 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Boxer .60 plans Daniel: If your interested I have a new still in the shipping tube set of Boxer 60 plans. I purchased them some time back but never got around to building it. There yours for $15.00 plus shipping, let me know. Ralph D Perillo rdpee at juno.com NSRCA 440 ____________________________________________________________ Click now for low prices on a huge selection of quality gift bags! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTFa6hGhbbPv0eFW2VkClgUd9gZu907gMWMBFOh6wA9cQbYrEmLguU/ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From deanfunk1 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 24 07:45:10 2009 From: deanfunk1 at yahoo.com (Dean Funk) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 15:45:10 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Joe Z - Please contact me off list Message-ID: <691304.9448.qm@web37406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hey Joe, Please contact or call me as I no longer have your contact info.... thanks buddy, dean From reidar.johansson at broadpark.no Wed Mar 25 03:18:31 2009 From: reidar.johansson at broadpark.no (Reidar Johansson) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 11:18:31 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] OLD K-Factors In-Reply-To: <5B40C54782404B168369DC5A5BB649F5@BENICIA> References: <5B40C54782404B168369DC5A5BB649F5@BENICIA> Message-ID: Hello everyone. Can I help You with K-Factors? I have all since May 1977 up to today. I am member 921 since 1977. Best regards Reidar Johansson _____ Fra: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] P? vegne av Derek Koopowitz Sendt: 21. februar 2009 21:12 Til: 'General pattern discussion' Emne: [NSRCA-discussion] OLD K-Factors A couple of years ago I was fortunate enough to receive a bunch of old K-Factors from Jim Hiller. I went through them today and I'm missing a number of issues in order to make it complete. If anyone has the following old issues of the K-Factor that is willing to part with them (briefly I might add) then I can scan them and send them back to you. I need the following issues: 1974 - All issues (this was the 1st year that the K-Factor was produced) 1975 - January 1977 - Feb, March and July 1978 - December (Vol 5, #12) 1979 - November and December 1980 - All issues 1981 - Vol 8, #'s 1, 2 and 5 1982 - Vol 9, # 9 (December) 1983 - All issues 1984 - All issues 1985 - Vol 13, # 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8 and 10 (December) 1986 - All issues 1987 - Vol 15, Jan, Mar to Dec. 1988 - All issues 1989 - All issues 1990 - All issues 1991 - All issues 1992 - January to September Some years they combined months into one issue anyway, any help with this would really be appreciated. If I can scan these then I can put them online into the archives. -Derek -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From derekkoopowitz at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 13:58:15 2009 From: derekkoopowitz at gmail.com (Derek Koopowitz) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 21:58:15 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] OLD K-Factors In-Reply-To: References: <5B40C54782404B168369DC5A5BB649F5@BENICIA> Message-ID: <3454543c0903251458v71144fcaka393b96211994a6c@mail.gmail.com> Reidar, I will contact you when I get back home next week... I'm over in France heading to the CIAM meeting in Switzerland. Thanks, -Derek 2009/3/25 Reidar Johansson > Hello everyone. > > > > Can I help You with K-Factors? I have all since May 1977 up to today. > > I am member 921 since 1977. > > > > Best regards > > > > Reidar Johansson > > > ------------------------------ > > *Fra:* nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto: > nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] *P? vegne av* Derek Koopowitz > *Sendt:* 21. februar 2009 21:12 > *Til:* 'General pattern discussion' > *Emne:* [NSRCA-discussion] OLD K-Factors > > > > A couple of years ago I was fortunate enough to receive a bunch of old > K-Factors from Jim Hiller. I went through them today and I'm missing a > number of issues in order to make it complete. > > If anyone has the following old issues of the K-Factor that is willing to > part with them (briefly I might add) then I can scan them and send them back > to you. I need the following issues: > > 1974 - All issues (this was the 1st year that the K-Factor was produced) > 1975 - January > 1977 - Feb, March and July > 1978 - December (Vol 5, #12) > 1979 - November and December > 1980 - All issues > 1981 - Vol 8, #'s 1, 2 and 5 > 1982 - Vol 9, # 9 (December) > 1983 - All issues > 1984 - All issues > 1985 - Vol 13, # 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8 and 10 (December) > 1986 - All issues > 1987 - Vol 15, Jan, Mar to Dec. > 1988 - All issues > 1989 - All issues > 1990 - All issues > 1991 - All issues > 1992 - January to September > > > > Some years they combined months into one issue? anyway, any help with this > would really be appreciated. If I can scan these then I can put them online > into the archives. > > -Derek > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trexlesh at msn.com Wed Mar 25 14:31:14 2009 From: trexlesh at msn.com (Rex) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 22:31:14 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] OLD K-Factors In-Reply-To: <3454543c0903251458v71144fcaka393b96211994a6c@mail.gmail.com> References: <5B40C54782404B168369DC5A5BB649F5@BENICIA> <3454543c0903251458v71144fcaka393b96211994a6c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Bring me back some chocolate..... :) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 14:58:14 -0700 From: derekkoopowitz at gmail.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] OLD K-Factors Reidar, I will contact you when I get back home next week... I'm over in France heading to the CIAM meeting in Switzerland. Thanks, -Derek 2009/3/25 Reidar Johansson Hello everyone. Can I help You with K-Factors? I have all since May 1977 up to today. I am member 921 since 1977. Best regards Reidar Johansson Fra: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] P? vegne av Derek Koopowitz Sendt: 21. februar 2009 21:12 Til: 'General pattern discussion' Emne: [NSRCA-discussion] OLD K-Factors A couple of years ago I was fortunate enough to receive a bunch of old K-Factors from Jim Hiller. I went through them today and I'm missing a number of issues in order to make it complete. If anyone has the following old issues of the K-Factor that is willing to part with them (briefly I might add) then I can scan them and send them back to you. I need the following issues: 1974 - All issues (this was the 1st year that the K-Factor was produced) 1975 - January 1977 - Feb, March and July 1978 - December (Vol 5, #12) 1979 - November and December 1980 - All issues 1981 - Vol 8, #'s 1, 2 and 5 1982 - Vol 9, # 9 (December) 1983 - All issues 1984 - All issues 1985 - Vol 13, # 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8 and 10 (December) 1986 - All issues 1987 - Vol 15, Jan, Mar to Dec. 1988 - All issues 1989 - All issues 1990 - All issues 1991 - All issues 1992 - January to September Some years they combined months into one issue? anyway, any help with this would really be appreciated. If I can scan these then I can put them online into the archives. -Derek _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cjm767driver at hotmail.com Wed Mar 25 14:32:02 2009 From: cjm767driver at hotmail.com (Chris Moon) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 22:32:02 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] OLD K-Factors In-Reply-To: <3454543c0903251458v71144fcaka393b96211994a6c@mail.gmail.com> References: <5B40C54782404B168369DC5A5BB649F5@BENICIA> <3454543c0903251458v71144fcaka393b96211994a6c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnfuqua at embarqmail.com Wed Mar 25 17:46:02 2009 From: johnfuqua at embarqmail.com (John Fuqua) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 01:46:02 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Mike Wingo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009d01c9adb4$9c4ab4f0$7101a8c0@ltm733c31251f5> Anybody have Mike Wingo's email address. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kgamueller at rogers.com Wed Mar 25 17:58:25 2009 From: kgamueller at rogers.com (Karl G. Mueller) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 01:58:25 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Mike Wingo References: <009d01c9adb4$9c4ab4f0$7101a8c0@ltm733c31251f5> Message-ID: Michael.Wingo at dyn-intl.com ----- Original Message ----- From: John Fuqua To: 'General pattern discussion' Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:45 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Mike Wingo Anybody have Mike Wingo's email address. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.horan at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 25 21:01:36 2009 From: paul.horan at sbcglobal.net (Paul Horan) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 05:01:36 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Pattern Contest, Temple, Tx, April 18, 19 Message-ID: <331902.3297.qm@web83607.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> ?? April 18, 19 Temple Texas Sportsman, Intermediate, Advanced, Masters and FAI. Awards thru 3rd Place. Entry fee is $25.? Paul Horan NSRCA 3606Tried posting the PDF Flier but bounced due to being too big, so below is the plain text info from it. ------------------------------------- Location: Club Field in Moffat, Texas Registration ? 8:30am Saturday Flying will begin approx. 10:00am Saturday Field open for practice Friday at noon Food concessions available at noon Saturday & Sunday Camping allowed ? no hookups ?To promote pattern flying in our club, club memberswill be allowed to compete? Motels: Holiday Inn Express 1301 N. Gen. Bruce (254)770-1100 Stratford House Inn 1602 N. Gen Bruce (254)771-1495 Fairfield Inn 1402 SW H.K. Dodgen (254)771-3030 La Quinta Inn 1604 W. Barton (254)771-2980 Hilton Garden Inn 1749 Scott Blvd. (254)773-0200 Hampton Inn 1414 SW H.K. Dodgen (254)778-6700 Best Western Inn 602 N. Gen. Bruce (254)742-1122 Comfort Suites 1415 N. Gen. Bruce (254)770-0300 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KTHOMPSON56 at satx.rr.com Thu Mar 26 02:20:42 2009 From: KTHOMPSON56 at satx.rr.com (Ken Thompson) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:20:42 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Pattern Contest, Temple, Tx, April 18, 19 References: <331902.3297.qm@web83607.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001d01c9adfd$19beb6f0$0200a8c0@kencopepere> Sure wish I could be there...currently without a bird for practice or comp. I plan on picking up a plane I will use for backup after my v 2.2 is done, but that's not until the end of April or 1st part of May. Best of luck to all who can attend! Ken ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Horan To: General pattern discussion Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 12:01 AM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Pattern Contest, Temple, Tx, April 18, 19 April 18, 19 Temple Texas Sportsman, Intermediate, Advanced, Masters and FAI. Awards thru 3rd Place. Entry fee is $25. Paul Horan NSRCA 3606Tried posting the PDF Flier but bounced due to being too big, so below is the plain text info from it. ------------------------------------- Location: Club Field in Moffat, Texas Registration ? 8:30am Saturday Flying will begin approx. 10:00am Saturday Field open for practice Friday at noon Food concessions available at noon Saturday & Sunday Camping allowed ? no hookups ?To promote pattern flying in our club, club memberswill be allowed to compete? Motels: Holiday Inn Express 1301 N. Gen. Bruce (254)770-1100 Stratford House Inn 1602 N. Gen Bruce (254)771-1495 Fairfield Inn 1402 SW H.K. Dodgen (254)771-3030 La Quinta Inn 1604 W. Barton (254)771-2980 Hilton Garden Inn 1749 Scott Blvd. (254)773-0200 Hampton Inn 1414 SW H.K. Dodgen (254)778-6700 Best Western Inn 602 N. Gen. Bruce (254)742-1122 Comfort Suites 1415 N. Gen. Bruce (254)770-0300 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From derekkoopowitz at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 02:27:36 2009 From: derekkoopowitz at gmail.com (Derek Koopowitz) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:27:36 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] OLD K-Factors In-Reply-To: References: <5B40C54782404B168369DC5A5BB649F5@BENICIA> <3454543c0903251458v71144fcaka393b96211994a6c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3454543c0903260327i3a2f0166yc9a3cffac15a36bf@mail.gmail.com> I've got a few pieces for you... 2009/3/25 Rex > Bring me back some chocolate..... :) > > ------------------------------ > Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 14:58:14 -0700 > From: derekkoopowitz at gmail.com > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] OLD K-Factors > > > Reidar, > > I will contact you when I get back home next week... I'm over in France > heading to the CIAM meeting in Switzerland. > > Thanks, > > -Derek > > 2009/3/25 Reidar Johansson > > Hello everyone. > > Can I help You with K-Factors? I have all since May 1977 up to today. > I am member 921 since 1977. > > Best regards > > Reidar Johansson > > ------------------------------ > *Fra:* nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto: > nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] *P? vegne av* Derek Koopowitz > *Sendt:* 21. februar 2009 21:12 > *Til:* 'General pattern discussion' > *Emne:* [NSRCA-discussion] OLD K-Factors > > A couple of years ago I was fortunate enough to receive a bunch of old > K-Factors from Jim Hiller. I went through them today and I'm missing a > number of issues in order to make it complete. > If anyone has the following old issues of the K-Factor that is willing to > part with them (briefly I might add) then I can scan them and send them back > to you. I need the following issues: > 1974 - All issues (this was the 1st year that the K-Factor was produced) > 1975 - January > 1977 - Feb, March and July > 1978 - December (Vol 5, #12) > 1979 - November and December > 1980 - All issues > 1981 - Vol 8, #'s 1, 2 and 5 > 1982 - Vol 9, # 9 (December) > 1983 - All issues > 1984 - All issues > 1985 - Vol 13, # 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8 and 10 (December) > 1986 - All issues > 1987 - Vol 15, Jan, Mar to Dec. > 1988 - All issues > 1989 - All issues > 1990 - All issues > 1991 - All issues > 1992 - January to September > > Some years they combined months into one issue? anyway, any help with this > would really be appreciated. If I can scan these then I can put them online > into the archives. > -Derek > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From derekkoopowitz at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 02:28:40 2009 From: derekkoopowitz at gmail.com (Derek Koopowitz) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:28:40 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] OLD K-Factors In-Reply-To: References: <5B40C54782404B168369DC5A5BB649F5@BENICIA> <3454543c0903251458v71144fcaka393b96211994a6c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3454543c0903260328i5a3be4a0raaecee09acb556a6@mail.gmail.com> Sounds like a plan, Chris. I think our presentation is top-notch. I just hope "they" like it... 2009/3/25 Chris Moon > Derek: > > Good luck over there! Bring us back the WC for 2011!! > > Thanks for all of your work on this too. > > Chris > > Derek Koopowitz wrote: > > Reidar, > > I will contact you when I get back home next week... I'm over in France > heading to the CIAM meeting in Switzerland. > > Thanks, > > -Derek > > 2009/3/25 Reidar Johansson > >> Hello everyone. >> >> >> >> Can I help You with K-Factors? I have all since May 1977 up to today. >> >> I am member 921 since 1977. >> >> >> >> Best regards >> >> >> >> Reidar Johansson >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *Fra:* nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto: >> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] *P? vegne av* Derek Koopowitz >> *Sendt:* 21. februar 2009 21:12 >> *Til:* 'General pattern discussion' >> *Emne:* [NSRCA-discussion] OLD K-Factors >> >> >> >> A couple of years ago I was fortunate enough to receive a bunch of old >> K-Factors from Jim Hiller. I went through them today and I'm missing a >> number of issues in order to make it complete. >> >> If anyone has the following old issues of the K-Factor that is willing to >> part with them (briefly I might add) then I can scan them and send them back >> to you. I need the following issues: >> >> 1974 - All issues (this was the 1st year that the K-Factor was produced) >> 1975 - January >> 1977 - Feb, March and July >> 1978 - December (Vol 5, #12) >> 1979 - November and December >> 1980 - All issues >> 1981 - Vol 8, #'s 1, 2 and 5 >> 1982 - Vol 9, # 9 (December) >> 1983 - All issues >> 1984 - All issues >> 1985 - Vol 13, # 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8 and 10 (December) >> 1986 - All issues >> 1987 - Vol 15, Jan, Mar to Dec. >> 1988 - All issues >> 1989 - All issues >> 1990 - All issues >> 1991 - All issues >> 1992 - January to September >> >> >> >> Some years they combined months into one issue? anyway, any help with this >> would really be appreciated. If I can scan these then I can put them online >> into the archives. >> >> -Derek >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing listNSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.orghttp://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > ------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.283 / Virus Database: 270.11.29/2023 - Release Date: 03/25/09 18:54:00 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schroetere at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 26 02:31:20 2009 From: schroetere at bellsouth.net (Emory Schroeter) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:31:20 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Ocala contest In-Reply-To: <200903201450.n2KEoDUD030589@mail958c35.nsolutionszone.com> References: <200903201450.n2KEoDUD030589@mail958c35.nsolutionszone.com> Message-ID: <10D4258B-8A9A-4D3E-AE99-61E9FD40B516@bellsouth.net> Hey Guys, I haven't heard anything about last weekends contest in Ocala. How did everything go? How many folks were there and who won, etc... I would have liked to have been there, but I had a convention in Atlanta. Thanks, Emory From vanputte at cox.net Thu Mar 26 04:19:30 2009 From: vanputte at cox.net (Ron Van Putte) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 12:19:30 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Ocala contest In-Reply-To: <10D4258B-8A9A-4D3E-AE99-61E9FD40B516@bellsouth.net> References: <200903201450.n2KEoDUD030589@mail958c35.nsolutionszone.com> <10D4258B-8A9A-4D3E-AE99-61E9FD40B516@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <9886E633-9810-4352-9A44-696ADC219523@cox.net> Geez! The excuses some guys use. John Fuqua was told by his wife that he was attending the wedding of a distant relative in Little Rock, so he wasn't there. The Ocala Model Flying Model Club usually has small, different color towels made up with a emblem on them that includes Kingdom of the Sun Annual Contest and the contest date. We were invited to take one, so I selected a pretty pink one for John. It was VERY windy. On one flight, my airplane blew back over my head and, before I could get control, I started feeling dizzy from looking back and up so long. I stumbled a couple of times, but finally managed to save the airplane. There were 24 contestants. Jason won F3A over Chad Northeast and Ivan Kristensen. Mike Hester barely won over Jon Lowe. Gary Courtney won Advanced; I think Chris Odom was second. My memory is blank on the rest. Ernie Meredith and Chris Hamel did their usual great job running the contest. I believe Jason took a bazillion pictures. Ron Van Putte On Mar 26, 2009, at 5:31 AM, Emory Schroeter wrote: > Hey Guys, > > I haven't heard anything about last weekends contest in Ocala. How > did everything go? How many folks were there and who won, etc... I > would have liked to have been there, but I had a convention in > Atlanta. > > Thanks, > Emory > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From jonlowe at aol.com Thu Mar 26 04:44:33 2009 From: jonlowe at aol.com (Jon Lowe) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 12:44:33 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Ocala contest In-Reply-To: <9886E633-9810-4352-9A44-696ADC219523@cox.net> References: <200903201450.n2KEoDUD030589@mail958c35.nsolutionszone.com><10D4258B-8A9A-4D3E-AE99-61E9FD40B516@bellsouth.net> <9886E633-9810-4352-9A44-696ADC219523@cox.net> Message-ID: <8CB7C27B3D5FBC4-D70-188A@FWM-D34.sysops.aol.com> Credit where credit is due: Mike Hester barely won over Steve Homenda in Masters. I was a distant 3rd, after zeroing my spin 3 times! Been doing them all week in pratice without a problem. There were lots of new pilots and airplanes. A slew of Osmoses and Integrals turned up, as well as Black Magics. Full results and lots of pictures are on RCU. Jon Lowe -----Original Message----- From: Ron Van Putte To: General pattern discussion Sent: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 7:19 am Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Ocala contest Geez! The excuses some guys use. John Fuqua was told by his wife that he was attending the wedding of a distant relative in Little Rock, so he wasn't there. The Ocala Model Flying Model Club usually has small, different color towels made up with a emblem on them that includes Kingdom of the Sun Annual Contest and the contest date. We were invited to take one, so I selected a pretty pink one for John.? ? It was VERY windy. On one flight, my airplane blew back over my head and, before I could get control, I started feeling dizzy from looking back and up so long. I stumbled a couple of times, but finally managed to save the airplane.? ? There were 24 contestants. Jason won F3A over Chad Northeast and Ivan Kristensen. Mike Hester barely won ov er Jon Lowe. Gary Courtney won Advanced; I think Chris Odom was second. My memory is blank on the rest.? ? Ernie Meredith and Chris Hamel did their usual great job running the contest.? ? I believe Jason took a bazillion pictures.? ? Ron Van Putte? ? On Mar 26, 2009, at 5:31 AM, Emory Schroeter wrote:? ? > Hey Guys,? >? > I haven't heard anything about last weekends contest in Ocala. How > did everything go? How many folks were there and who won, etc... I > would have liked to have been there, but I had a convention in > Atlanta.? >? > Thanks,? > Emory? > _______________________________________________? > NSRCA-discussion mailing list? > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org? > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion? ? _______________________________________________? NSRCA-discussion mailing list? NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org? http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion? From schroetere at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 26 04:47:15 2009 From: schroetere at bellsouth.net (Emory Schroeter) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 12:47:15 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Ocala contest References: <200903201450.n2KEoDUD030589@mail958c35.nsolutionszone.com> <10D4258B-8A9A-4D3E-AE99-61E9FD40B516@bellsouth.net> <9886E633-9810-4352-9A44-696ADC219523@cox.net> Message-ID: <863687.93749.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hy Ron, After I posted that, I remembered that I neede to check RCU. So, I got to see some of the pics and results. Anyway, I'm sorry I missed that. The Ocala contest has always been a fun one.? So when is the Lakeland contest?? Emory. ________________________________ From: Ron Van Putte To: General pattern discussion Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:19:34 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Ocala contest Geez!? The excuses some guys use.? John Fuqua was told by his wife that he was attending the wedding of a distant relative in Little Rock, so he wasn't there.? The Ocala Model Flying Model Club usually has small, different color towels made up with a emblem on them that includes Kingdom of the Sun Annual Contest and the contest date.? We were invited to take one, so I selected a pretty pink one for John. It was VERY windy.? On one flight, my airplane blew back over my head and, before I could get control, I started feeling dizzy from looking back and up so long.? I stumbled a couple of times, but finally managed to save the airplane. There were 24 contestants.? Jason won F3A over Chad Northeast and Ivan Kristensen.? Mike Hester barely won over Jon Lowe.? Gary Courtney won Advanced; I think Chris Odom was second.? My memory is blank on the rest. Ernie Meredith and Chris Hamel did their usual great job running the contest. I believe Jason took a bazillion pictures. Ron Van Putte On Mar 26, 2009, at 5:31 AM, Emory Schroeter wrote: > Hey Guys, > > I haven't heard anything about last weekends contest in Ocala. How did everything go? How many folks were there and who won, etc... I would have liked to have been there, but I had a convention in Atlanta. > > Thanks, > Emory > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vanputte at cox.net Thu Mar 26 04:53:16 2009 From: vanputte at cox.net (Ron Van Putte) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 12:53:16 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Ocala contest In-Reply-To: <863687.93749.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <200903201450.n2KEoDUD030589@mail958c35.nsolutionszone.com> <10D4258B-8A9A-4D3E-AE99-61E9FD40B516@bellsouth.net> <9886E633-9810-4352-9A44-696ADC219523@cox.net> <863687.93749.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <417D0ABB-520B-41C6-9508-6128DB091B3B@cox.net> The Lakeland contest is April 25th and 26th. BTW, sorry about the screwup in reporting the Master class finish. My memory is usually perfect, just very short. Ron On Mar 26, 2009, at 7:47 AM, Emory Schroeter wrote: > Hy Ron, > > After I posted that, I remembered that I neede to check RCU. So, I > got to see some of the pics and results. Anyway, I'm sorry I missed > that. The Ocala contest has always been a fun one. > > So when is the Lakeland contest?? > > Emory. > > From: Ron Van Putte > To: General pattern discussion > Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:19:34 AM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Ocala contest > > Geez! The excuses some guys use. John Fuqua was told by his wife > that he was attending the wedding of a distant relative in Little > Rock, so he wasn't there. The Ocala Model Flying Model Club > usually has small, different color towels made up with a emblem on > them that includes Kingdom of the Sun Annual Contest and the > contest date. We were invited to take one, so I selected a pretty > pink one for John. > > It was VERY windy. On one flight, my airplane blew back over my > head and, before I could get control, I started feeling dizzy from > looking back and up so long. I stumbled a couple of times, but > finally managed to save the airplane. > > There were 24 contestants. Jason won F3A over Chad Northeast and > Ivan Kristensen. Mike Hester barely won over Jon Lowe. Gary > Courtney won Advanced; I think Chris Odom was second. My memory is > blank on the rest. > > Ernie Meredith and Chris Hamel did their usual great job running > the contest. > > I believe Jason took a bazillion pictures. > > Ron Van Putte > > On Mar 26, 2009, at 5:31 AM, Emory Schroeter wrote: > > > Hey Guys, > > > > I haven't heard anything about last weekends contest in Ocala. > How did everything go? How many folks were there and who won, > etc... I would have liked to have been there, but I had a > convention in Atlanta. > > > > Thanks, > > Emory > > _______________________________________________ > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From jpavlick at idseng.com Thu Mar 26 09:38:21 2009 From: jpavlick at idseng.com (John Pavlick) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:38:21 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] C.F. Gear Message-ID: <179662.80049.qm@web80501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> A?friend of mine is looking for replacement landing gear for a 120-size, 70", 12 lb. Yak-54. Someone posted a link to some C.F. gear that looked like they'd work on an airplane like this a while ago - could you please repost the link? Thanks. ? John Pavlick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billt2 at verizon.net Thu Mar 26 10:49:33 2009 From: billt2 at verizon.net (EDWARD THOMPSON) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 18:49:33 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] C.F. Gear References: <179662.80049.qm@web80501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <65CCFAD24E5A411BB40588DA38ECECDB@Owner> http://www.troybuiltmodels.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: John Pavlick To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 1:38 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] C.F. Gear A friend of mine is looking for replacement landing gear for a 120-size, 70", 12 lb. Yak-54. Someone posted a link to some C.F. gear that looked like they'd work on an airplane like this a while ago - could you please repost the link? Thanks. John Pavlick ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joddino at socal.rr.com Thu Mar 26 15:20:13 2009 From: joddino at socal.rr.com (James Oddino) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 23:20:13 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs In-Reply-To: <179662.80049.qm@web80501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <179662.80049.qm@web80501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6377D0A1-705D-422B-8FD6-13295A37F116@socal.rr.com> I remember seeing an in depth procedure with photos showing how to replace the springs in a 14MZ. Seems like it was on someone's website. I thought I bookmarked it but I can't seem to find it. anyone know what I'm talking about? Jim O From schale at optonline.net Thu Mar 26 16:18:06 2009 From: schale at optonline.net (Stuart Chale) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 00:18:06 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs In-Reply-To: <6377D0A1-705D-422B-8FD6-13295A37F116@socal.rr.com> References: <179662.80049.qm@web80501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6377D0A1-705D-422B-8FD6-13295A37F116@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <49CC1B40.9010903@optonline.net> I don't have the link but they were very easy to install. Although Futaba says not to use their regular heavy duty springs I did and have not had an issue with it. I suspect many have used the same springs. The springs that Tony from Radio South sells are stiffer and I guess could be a problem if Futaba says that their HD springs are too heavy. I suspect that there are people that have installed them as well without problems though. The main thing is to make sure that the two loops on each end of the spring are perpendicular to each other before installing them. A fine needle nose plier or thin hemostat makes the job easier. Stuart C. James Oddino wrote: > > I remember seeing an in depth procedure with photos showing how to > replace the springs in a 14MZ. Seems like it was on someone's > website. I thought I bookmarked it but I can't seem to find it. > anyone know what I'm talking about? > > Jim O > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > From adriancwong at earthlink.net Thu Mar 26 16:32:12 2009 From: adriancwong at earthlink.net (adriancwong at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 00:32:12 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs Message-ID: <2293285.1238113929875.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Be careful on using springs that is too stiff. I've be warned that was one of the reason that can wear out the encoders prematurely. Adrian -----Original Message----- >From: Stuart Chale >Sent: Mar 26, 2009 8:18 PM >To: General pattern discussion >Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs > >I don't have the link but they were very easy to install. Although >Futaba says not to use their regular heavy duty springs I did and have >not had an issue with it. I suspect many have used the same springs. >The springs that Tony from Radio South sells are stiffer and I guess >could be a problem if Futaba says that their HD springs are too heavy. >I suspect that there are people that have installed them as well without >problems though. >The main thing is to make sure that the two loops on each end of the >spring are perpendicular to each other before installing them. A fine >needle nose plier or thin hemostat makes the job easier. >Stuart C. > >James Oddino wrote: >> >> I remember seeing an in depth procedure with photos showing how to >> replace the springs in a 14MZ. Seems like it was on someone's >> website. I thought I bookmarked it but I can't seem to find it. >> anyone know what I'm talking about? >> >> Jim O >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >NSRCA-discussion mailing list >NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From alidose at att.net Thu Mar 26 17:35:14 2009 From: alidose at att.net (Ali Dose) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 01:35:14 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] USA CIAM Representative? Message-ID: I learned yesterday that "we" have a new CIAM representative, Derek Koopowitz, who has replaced Chris Lakin. Apparently, congratulations to Derek. How is the individual selected? Who is on the nominating Committee? Is there such a committee? How are the candidates views and opinions communicated? Who votes? Is the NSRCA, as the AMA's FAI F3A special interest group, responsible for the process and then an AMA official, after careful consideration and review "rubber stamps" the submission? Did I need to have a FAI stamp to participate? Am I the last to know? Derek is a fine choice AND there are also a bunch of others who, I hope, were considered and reviewed... who have made significant contributions to the sport on the local, regional and national levels, have significant leadership experience, have attended numerous FAI F3A World Championships as a Team member or Manager or Team volunteer, have been involved at the highest levels and ample amounts of time to focus on the role without distration or other responsibilities... who also would make excellent contributions and continue the traditions of excellence of our current and past CIAM representatives. Respectfully, Rusty Dose Past NSRCA Treasurer -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dkrev at shaw.ca Thu Mar 26 17:39:16 2009 From: dkrev at shaw.ca (Dave Reaville) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 01:39:16 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs References: <179662.80049.qm@web80501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6377D0A1-705D-422B-8FD6-13295A37F116@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <29842D4801444D58AA8F2FD1B89A784A@Dave007> Hi Jim I don't profess to know the issues with the encoders but the procedure is show here... pretty straight forward. http://picasaweb.google.com/Dave.Reaville/14MZGimbalSpringChange Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: James Oddino To: General discussion Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 4:20 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs I remember seeing an in depth procedure with photos showing how to replace the springs in a 14MZ. Seems like it was on someone's website. I thought I bookmarked it but I can't seem to find it. anyone know what I'm talking about? Jim O _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From smaragdz at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 26 17:43:33 2009 From: smaragdz at bellsouth.net (Ryan Smith) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 01:43:33 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] USA CIAM Representative? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <49cc2f42.281d640a.2203.6c33@mx.google.com> Rusty, Here is what (I think) I know. Individuals put their name in a hat for consideration. I'm not sure there's any nominating committee, it's open as far as I know. Two of the people dropped out by the time we took a vote, and we were left with Derek and Earl Haury. They each submitted a resume, and we were allowed to ask questions to the candidates. We took a vote and Derek was the winner. It was my understanding that the job wasn't very time intensive, and didn't require travel to Europe to meet. Both Derek and Earl were very worthy candidates, and the vote was close. I hope this clears up things a little. Regards, Ryan Smith NSRCA D2 VP _____ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ali Dose Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 9:35 PM To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] USA CIAM Representative? I learned yesterday that "we" have a new CIAM representative, Derek Koopowitz, who has replaced Chris Lakin. Apparently, congratulations to Derek. How is the individual selected? Who is on the nominating Committee? Is there such a committee? How are the candidates views and opinions communicated? Who votes? Is the NSRCA, as the AMA's FAI F3A special interest group, responsible for the process and then an AMA official, after careful consideration and review "rubber stamps" the submission? Did I need to have a FAI stamp to participate? Am I the last to know? Derek is a fine choice AND there are also a bunch of others who, I hope, were considered and reviewed... who have made significant contributions to the sport on the local, regional and national levels, have significant leadership experience, have attended numerous FAI F3A World Championships as a Team member or Manager or Team volunteer, have been involved at the highest levels and ample amounts of time to focus on the role without distration or other responsibilities... who also would make excellent contributions and continue the traditions of excellence of our current and past CIAM representatives. Respectfully, Rusty Dose Past NSRCA Treasurer -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vanputte at cox.net Thu Mar 26 17:51:42 2009 From: vanputte at cox.net (Ron Van Putte) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 01:51:42 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] USA CIAM Representative? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56DDD469-31F3-494F-A5F7-B82134D0E2AC@cox.net> Well, the first thing we need to get cleared up is that the position of CIAM representative is an AMA position. NSRCA does not have anything more than the ability to recommend an individual. Ryan Smith explained what went on there, so I won't repeat what he wrote. AMA accepted the recommendation of Derek as the CIAM representative. Done deal. Ron Van Putte On Mar 26, 2009, at 8:35 PM, Ali Dose wrote: > I learned yesterday that "we" have a new CIAM representative, Derek > Koopowitz, who has replaced Chris Lakin. Apparently, > congratulations to Derek. > > How is the individual selected? > Who is on the nominating Committee? > Is there such a committee? > How are the candidates views and opinions communicated? > Who votes? > Is the NSRCA, as the AMA's FAI F3A special interest group, > responsible for the process and then an AMA official, after careful > consideration and review "rubber stamps" the submission? > Did I need to have a FAI stamp to participate? > Am I the last to know? > > Derek is a fine choice AND there are also a bunch of others who, I > hope, were considered and reviewed... > > who have made significant contributions to the sport on the local, > regional and national levels, have significant leadership > experience, have attended numerous FAI F3A World Championships as a > Team member or Manager or Team volunteer, have been involved at the > highest levels and ample amounts of time to focus on the role > without distration or other responsibilities... > > who also would make excellent contributions and continue the > traditions of excellence of our current and past CIAM representatives. > > > Respectfully, > > Rusty Dose > Past NSRCA Treasurer > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From ruddercable at yahoo.com Thu Mar 26 17:54:44 2009 From: ruddercable at yahoo.com (Robert Gainey) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 01:54:44 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] C.F. Gear In-Reply-To: <179662.80049.qm@web80501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <179662.80049.qm@web80501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <256936.89203.qm@web59609.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> John I happen to have lost my QuiQui Yak several weeks ago. It was an unfortunate adventure as it flew through some trees on the edge of? our field. Needless to say, my advancing age appears to be working on my depth perception , but thats another story. Anyway , the landing gear seems to have survived unharmed. ( The only part that was undamaged ) It is fiberglass and had only been on the plane for a few months as it was a replacement. It was given to me , and I am willing to pass it along for the same rediculous terms,?if you can use it. Robert Gainey ________________________________ From: John Pavlick To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 1:38:20 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] C.F. Gear A?friend of mine is looking for replacement landing gear for a 120-size, 70", 12 lb. Yak-54. Someone posted a link to some C.F. gear that looked like they'd work on an airplane like this a while ago - could you please repost the link? Thanks. John Pavlick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vanputte at cox.net Thu Mar 26 18:10:00 2009 From: vanputte at cox.net (Ron Van Putte) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 02:10:00 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Rhino Lipos Message-ID: At the risk of hearing loud guffaws, even way down here in northwest Florida, also known as "Baja Alabama", I'd like to report that I just acquired four 5S-4900 mah 20C Rhino lipo packs from Hobby City to use in a Genesis I just acquired. I have not flown them in the airplane yet, but I was wondering if anyone out there has used them in an F3A- size airplane and has some constructive comments. I did not blindly buy these batteries. I saw that Hobby City had a short-term sale on them, so I quickly checked on R/C Groups and asked a few people around here if they had experience with them. I was surprised that I could find NO negative comments about Rhino battery packs. The local R/C car guys here use and like the 4S versions, preferring them to some name brands, which I won't mention. Any comments? Ron Van Putte From homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 26 19:00:59 2009 From: homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com (Chris Fitzsimmons) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 03:00:59 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Rhino Lipos Message-ID: <699957.67638.qm@web33008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have a friend down in so cal running them. He loves them! He is going to buy more. They are too heavy for me or I would try them. Chris Sent from my iPhone On Mar 26, 2009, at 7:10 PM, Ron Van Putte wrote: At the risk of hearing loud guffaws, even way down here in northwest Florida, also known as "Baja Alabama", I'd like to report that I just acquired four 5S-4900 mah 20C Rhino lipo packs from Hobby City to use in a Genesis I just acquired. I have not flown them in the airplane yet, but I was wondering if anyone out there has used them in an F3A-size airplane and has some constructive comments. I did not blindly buy these batteries. I saw that Hobby City had a short-term sale on them, so I quickly checked on R/C Groups and asked a few people around here if they had experience with them. I was surprised that I could find NO negative comments about Rhino battery packs. The local R/C car guys here use and like the 4S versions, preferring them to some name brands, which I won't mention. Any comments? Ron Van Putte _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From geobet4 at verizon.net Thu Mar 26 19:09:22 2009 From: geobet4 at verizon.net (George W.Kennie) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 03:09:22 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Rhino Lipos References: Message-ID: Ron, There are guys in two different clubs that I belong to that are using Rhino paks with fabulous results. More wattage from a 20C Rhino pak than a 30C Thunder Power Pro (50 Watts greater on a 4 S pak). Another one of the guys has been charging at 3C for a year and taking 3 cell paks down to 8 volts consistantly with no apparrent degradation in capacity. They give the impression of indestructability ! Just think what's possible when they are properly cared for ! G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Van Putte" To: "General pattern discussion" Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 10:10 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Rhino Lipos > At the risk of hearing loud guffaws, even way down here in northwest > Florida, also known as "Baja Alabama", I'd like to report that I just > acquired four 5S-4900 mah 20C Rhino lipo packs from Hobby City to use in > a Genesis I just acquired. I have not flown them in the airplane yet, > but I was wondering if anyone out there has used them in an F3A- size > airplane and has some constructive comments. > > I did not blindly buy these batteries. I saw that Hobby City had a > short-term sale on them, so I quickly checked on R/C Groups and asked a > few people around here if they had experience with them. I was surprised > that I could find NO negative comments about Rhino battery packs. The > local R/C car guys here use and like the 4S versions, preferring them to > some name brands, which I won't mention. > > Any comments? > > Ron Van Putte > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25178 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message From bob at toprudder.com Fri Mar 27 03:51:15 2009 From: bob at toprudder.com (Bob Richards) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 11:51:15 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Rhino Lipos Message-ID: <638393.15901.qm@web1114.biz.mail.sk1.yahoo.com> No laughter from me!? I have not flown them in a pattern plane, but there is a guy in our club running a scale model with Rhino packs in a 6S setup and he loves them. Sometime in the near future I am going to get some packs. ? Bob R. --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Ron Van Putte wrote: At the risk of hearing loud guffaws, even way down here in northwest Florida, also known as "Baja Alabama", I'd like to report that I just acquired four 5S-4900 mah 20C Rhino lipo packs from Hobby City to use in a Genesis I just acquired.? I have not flown them in the airplane yet, but I was wondering if anyone out there has used them in an F3A-size airplane and has some constructive comments. I did not blindly buy these batteries.? I saw that Hobby City had a short-term sale on them, so I quickly checked on R/C Groups and asked a few people around here if they had experience with them.? I was surprised that I could find NO negative comments about Rhino battery packs.? The local R/C car guys here use and like the 4S versions, preferring them to some name brands, which I won't mention. Any comments? Ron Van Putte _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lightfoot at sc.rr.com Fri Mar 27 03:57:54 2009 From: lightfoot at sc.rr.com (Jay Marshall) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 11:57:54 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Rhino Lipos In-Reply-To: <638393.15901.qm@web1114.biz.mail.sk1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: George put this together recently: 3 Cell LiPo Battery Pack Comparison (AXI 2212-20, CC25 ESC, APC 8x6e) 12/23/08 Rating, Rating, Volts, Volts (min.) Amps (max.) Watts (max) RPM, Battery V, Size, mm, Weight, Brand mAH C Rating Amps Charged after 20 sec. after 20 sec. after 20 sec. (approx.)* Temp. Resting LxWxH grams Cost Supplier ABF** 1300 20C 26 12.49 10.45 20.03 222.5 11K-13K 83.0 12.00 69x35x21 112 $15 Hobby City TP 1320 13C 17 12.48 10.31 19.32 205.1 9.9K-10K 99.0 11.97 65x33x19 84 $50 CheapBatteryPacks Rhino*** 1550 20C 31 12.50 10.98 20.79 236.1 10K-12K 80.0 12.16 91x34x21 140 $16 Hobby City Rhino*** 1750 20C 35 12.49 11.15 20.93 240.9 10K-12K 80.0 12.08 91x34x23 154 $18 Hobby City TP 2000 12C 24 12.49 10.55 19.84 218.6 10K-12K 85.0 12.13 65x48x18 122 $73 CheapBatteryPacks TP 2100 15C 31.5 12.47 10.71 19.81 218.3 10K-12K 82.0 12.14 101x33x20 142 $70 CheapBatteryPacks TP 3300 25C 82.5 12.44 10.35 19.02 203.8 10K-12K 79.0 12.17 142x47x20 271 $125 CheapBatteryPacks *Tachometer readings were VERY erratic (indoors) - readings are NOT reliable **No longer available (quality and performance problems) **Best value (I think) Jay Marshall -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mups1953 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 27 04:41:44 2009 From: mups1953 at yahoo.com (mike mueller) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 12:41:44 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Rhino Lipos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <379623.53564.qm@web51010.mail.re2.yahoo.com> ?The litmus test is yet to be determined. How long will they last under good conditions 80% rule applied. If they last they seem to be the best value along with the TrueRC's offerings. This is just another example of E. having more choices that make it cheaper to do. Who knows where it will be in a few years. My guess is the current equipment will be obsolete. ?We have a prominent flyer here that is doing some very interesting testing on the Rhino's. I do however agree with Chris that weight could be a problem. I'm building a hefty plane right now that would not make weight with these. Mike --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Jay Marshall wrote: From: Jay Marshall Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rhino Lipos To: "'General pattern discussion'" Date: Friday, March 27, 2009, 6:57 AM George put this together recently: ? 3 Cell LiPo Battery Pack Comparison (AXI 2212-20, CC25 ESC, APC 8x6e) ? 12/23/08 ? ? ??????????????????? Rating,?????? ??????????????????? Rating,?????? Volts,????????? Volts (min.)??????????????????? Amps (max.)???????????????? Watts (max)????????????????? RPM,??????????????????? Battery??????? V,???????????????? Size, mm,? ??????????????????? Weight,????? Brand???????? mAH?????????? C Rating??? Amps????????? Charged??? after 20 sec.????????????????? after 20 sec.????????????????? after 20 sec.????????????????? (approx.)*??????????????????? Temp.??????? Resting????? LxWxH?????? ??????????????????? grams??????? Cost??????????? Supplier ? ABF**???????? 1300?????????? 20C??????????? 26?????????????? 12.49????????? 10.45????????????????????????????? 20.03????????????????????????????? 222.5????????????????????????????? 11K-13K??? 83.0??????????????????? 12.00????????? 69x35x21????????????????????? 112???????????? $15???????????? Hobby City TP????????????? 1320?????????? 13C??????????? 17?????????????? 12.48????????? 10.31????????????????????????????? 19.32????????????????????????????? 205.1????????????????????????????? 9.9K-10K?? 99.0??????????????????? 11.97????????? 65x33x19????????????????????? 84?????????????? $50???????????? CheapBatteryPacks Rhino***??? 1550?????????? 20C??????????? 31?????????????? 12.50????????? 10.98????????????????????????????? 20.79????????????????????????????? 236.1????????? ??????????????????? 10K-12K??? 80.0??????????????????? 12.16????????? 91x34x21????????????????????? 140???????????? $16???????????? Hobby City Rhino***??? 1750?????????? 20C??????????? 35?????????????? 12.49????????? 11.15????????????????????????????? 20.93????????????????????????????? 240.9????????????????????????????? 10K-12K??? 80.0??????????????????? 12.08????????? 91x34x23????????????????????? 154???????????? $18???????????? Hobby City TP????????????? 2000?????????? 12C??????????? 24?????????????? 12.49????????? 10.55????????????????????????????? 19.84????????????????????????????? 218.6????????????????????????????? 10K-12K??? 85.0??????????????????? 12.13????????? 65x48x18????????????????????? 122???????????? $73???????????? CheapBatteryPacks TP????????????? 2100?????????? 15C??????????? 31.5??????????? 12.47????????? 10.71????????????????????????????? 19.81????????????????????????????? 218.3????????????????????????????? 10K-12K??? 82.0??????????????????? 12.14????????? 101x33x20??????????????????? 142???????????? $70???????????? CheapBatteryPacks TP????????????? 3300?????????? 25C??????????? 82.5??????????? 12.44????????? 10.35????????????????????????????? 19.02????????????????????????????? 203.8????????????????????????????? 10K-12K??? 79.0??????????????????? 12.17????????? 142x47x20??????????????????? 271???????????? $125?????????? CheapBatteryPacks ? *Tachometer readings were VERY erratic (indoors) ? readings are NOT reliable **No longer available (quality and performance problems) **Best value (I think) ? ? ? Jay Marshall ?_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tony at radiosouthrc.com Fri Mar 27 04:47:29 2009 From: tony at radiosouthrc.com (Tony) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 12:47:29 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs In-Reply-To: <2293285.1238113929875.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <2293285.1238113929875.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <8DE0115E23E848328B05A2542F5E1491@Tony> Adrian: I sell HD springs for all transmitters and they are very popular. I have been using them in my 14MZ for several years now, without any problems. I have just changed to the new encoders as a matter of fact. I don't understand the statement that HD springs cause undue wear on the encoders. They are a pivot point, not a pressure point for the spring/scissor unit. There is just not a problem here. The only issues with springs is to make sure the loops are large enough so the spring can pivot, especially in the grove that is in the plastic adjuster in the Futaba units. If the loop is too small, the top of the spring coil will press against the bottom of the adjuster arm and will actually flex the adjuster, causing it to break over time. When the loop is large enough so the coil does not touch the adjuster arm, the spring will just pivot in the groove (as it should). I have been flying HD springs since 1981... literally thousands of flights and never a failure... Tony Stillman, President Radio South, Inc. 139 Altama Connector, Box 322 Brunswick, GA 31525 1-800-962-7802 www.radiosouthrc.com -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of adriancwong at earthlink.net Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:32 PM To: General pattern discussion; General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs Be careful on using springs that is too stiff. I've be warned that was one of the reason that can wear out the encoders prematurely. Adrian -----Original Message----- >From: Stuart Chale >Sent: Mar 26, 2009 8:18 PM >To: General pattern discussion >Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs > >I don't have the link but they were very easy to install. Although >Futaba says not to use their regular heavy duty springs I did and have >not had an issue with it. I suspect many have used the same springs. >The springs that Tony from Radio South sells are stiffer and I guess >could be a problem if Futaba says that their HD springs are too heavy. >I suspect that there are people that have installed them as well without >problems though. >The main thing is to make sure that the two loops on each end of the >spring are perpendicular to each other before installing them. A fine >needle nose plier or thin hemostat makes the job easier. >Stuart C. > >James Oddino wrote: >> >> I remember seeing an in depth procedure with photos showing how to >> replace the springs in a 14MZ. Seems like it was on someone's >> website. I thought I bookmarked it but I can't seem to find it. >> anyone know what I'm talking about? >> >> Jim O >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >NSRCA-discussion mailing list >NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From verne at twmi.rr.com Fri Mar 27 05:15:43 2009 From: verne at twmi.rr.com (verne at twmi.rr.com) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 13:15:43 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs In-Reply-To: <8DE0115E23E848328B05A2542F5E1491@Tony> Message-ID: <20090327131541.NRB3N.419068.root@hrndva-web03-z02> I've been using the Radio South springs in my 14mz for the last 4 years. My original encoders were replaced by Futaba as a routine factory upgrade when the radio was one-season old but weren't actually causing me any problems. I had sent the radio in to have a defective trim switch replaced and Futaba just routinely upgraded the encoders. The RS springs have worked fine for me. Verne Koester ---- Tony wrote: > Adrian: > I sell HD springs for all transmitters and they are very popular. I have > been using them in my 14MZ for several years now, without any problems. I > have just changed to the new encoders as a matter of fact. > > I don't understand the statement that HD springs cause undue wear on the > encoders. They are a pivot point, not a pressure point for the > spring/scissor unit. There is just not a problem here. > > The only issues with springs is to make sure the loops are large enough so > the spring can pivot, especially in the grove that is in the plastic > adjuster in the Futaba units. If the loop is too small, the top of the > spring coil will press against the bottom of the adjuster arm and will > actually flex the adjuster, causing it to break over time. When the loop is > large enough so the coil does not touch the adjuster arm, the spring will > just pivot in the groove (as it should). > > I have been flying HD springs since 1981... literally thousands of flights > and never a failure... > > > Tony Stillman, President > Radio South, Inc. > 139 Altama Connector, Box 322 > Brunswick, GA 31525 > 1-800-962-7802 > www.radiosouthrc.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of > adriancwong at earthlink.net > Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:32 PM > To: General pattern discussion; General pattern discussion > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs > > Be careful on using springs that is too stiff. I've be warned that was one > of the reason that can wear out the encoders prematurely. > > Adrian > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Stuart Chale > >Sent: Mar 26, 2009 8:18 PM > >To: General pattern discussion > >Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs > > > >I don't have the link but they were very easy to install. Although > >Futaba says not to use their regular heavy duty springs I did and have > >not had an issue with it. I suspect many have used the same springs. > >The springs that Tony from Radio South sells are stiffer and I guess > >could be a problem if Futaba says that their HD springs are too heavy. > >I suspect that there are people that have installed them as well without > >problems though. > >The main thing is to make sure that the two loops on each end of the > >spring are perpendicular to each other before installing them. A fine > >needle nose plier or thin hemostat makes the job easier. > >Stuart C. > > > >James Oddino wrote: > >> > >> I remember seeing an in depth procedure with photos showing how to > >> replace the springs in a 14MZ. Seems like it was on someone's > >> website. I thought I bookmarked it but I can't seem to find it. > >> anyone know what I'm talking about? > >> > >> Jim O > >> _______________________________________________ > >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list > >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > >> > >> > > > >_______________________________________________ > >NSRCA-discussion mailing list > >NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > >http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From jpavlick at idseng.com Fri Mar 27 05:28:23 2009 From: jpavlick at idseng.com (John Pavlick) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 13:28:23 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs In-Reply-To: <20090327131541.NRB3N.419068.root@hrndva-web03-z02> Message-ID: <528766.80425.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Me too.?I have them on my 9Z, 12Z, 12Fg and?I had them on my 9C.?I sold the 9C and it's still working fine. Futaba does have "heavy duty" springs for the 12Z and 14Mz but they're different than the ones that go in a 9C. Maybe that's what someone was trying to say about using heavy duty springs in a 14Mz. DON'T use the "regular" heavy duty Futaba springs, you have to order?the ones specifically made for the 14Mz and 12Z. I think they just want you to use the correct heavy duty springs. Like I said, the Radio South springs seem to work fine and when?I had my 12Z in for service a few weeks ago, they replaced the original encoders (my Tx had the original blue encoders) and left the Radio South springs in (they knew they were R.S. springs because?I told them so on my work request). They said nothing about the springs causing a problem with the sticks or encoders. ? John Pavlick --- On Fri, 3/27/09, verne at twmi.rr.com wrote: From: verne at twmi.rr.com Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Friday, March 27, 2009, 1:15 PM I've been using the Radio South springs in my 14mz for the last 4 years. My original encoders were replaced by Futaba as a routine factory upgrade when the radio was one-season old but weren't actually causing me any problems. I had sent the radio in to have a defective trim switch replaced and Futaba just routinely upgraded the encoders. The RS springs have worked fine for me. Verne Koester ---- Tony wrote: > Adrian: > I sell HD springs for all transmitters and they are very popular. I have > been using them in my 14MZ for several years now, without any problems. I > have just changed to the new encoders as a matter of fact. > > I don't understand the statement that HD springs cause undue wear on the > encoders. They are a pivot point, not a pressure point for the > spring/scissor unit. There is just not a problem here. > > The only issues with springs is to make sure the loops are large enough so > the spring can pivot, especially in the grove that is in the plastic > adjuster in the Futaba units. If the loop is too small, the top of the > spring coil will press against the bottom of the adjuster arm and will > actually flex the adjuster, causing it to break over time. When the loop is > large enough so the coil does not touch the adjuster arm, the spring will > just pivot in the groove (as it should). > > I have been flying HD springs since 1981... literally thousands of flights > and never a failure... > > > Tony Stillman, President > Radio South, Inc. > 139 Altama Connector, Box 322 > Brunswick, GA 31525 > 1-800-962-7802 > www.radiosouthrc.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of > adriancwong at earthlink.net > Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:32 PM > To: General pattern discussion; General pattern discussion > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs > > Be careful on using springs that is too stiff. I've be warned that was one > of the reason that can wear out the encoders prematurely. > > Adrian > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Stuart Chale > >Sent: Mar 26, 2009 8:18 PM > >To: General pattern discussion > >Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs > > > >I don't have the link but they were very easy to install. Although > >Futaba says not to use their regular heavy duty springs I did and have > >not had an issue with it. I suspect many have used the same springs. > >The springs that Tony from Radio South sells are stiffer and I guess > >could be a problem if Futaba says that their HD springs are too heavy. > >I suspect that there are people that have installed them as well without > >problems though. > >The main thing is to make sure that the two loops on each end of the > >spring are perpendicular to each other before installing them. A fine > >needle nose plier or thin hemostat makes the job easier. > >Stuart C. > > > >James Oddino wrote: > >> > >> I remember seeing an in depth procedure with photos showing how to > >> replace the springs in a 14MZ. Seems like it was on someone's > >> website. I thought I bookmarked it but I can't seem to find it. > >> anyone know what I'm talking about? > >> > >> Jim O > >> _______________________________________________ > >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list > >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > >> > >> > > > >_______________________________________________ > >NSRCA-discussion mailing list > >NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > >http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From astafford at swtexas.net Fri Mar 27 05:28:56 2009 From: astafford at swtexas.net (Archie Stafford) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 13:28:56 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs In-Reply-To: <20090327131541.NRB3N.419068.root@hrndva-web03-z02> References: <8DE0115E23E848328B05A2542F5E1491@Tony> <20090327131541.NRB3N.419068.root@hrndva-web03-z02> Message-ID: <006f01c9aedf$ecbe3c00$c63ab400$@net> Have to agree with Verne and Tony. I'm running the RS springs and never had a problem. I run them in everything I own. Arch -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of verne at twmi.rr.com Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 8:16 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs I've been using the Radio South springs in my 14mz for the last 4 years. My original encoders were replaced by Futaba as a routine factory upgrade when the radio was one-season old but weren't actually causing me any problems. I had sent the radio in to have a defective trim switch replaced and Futaba just routinely upgraded the encoders. The RS springs have worked fine for me. Verne Koester ---- Tony wrote: > Adrian: > I sell HD springs for all transmitters and they are very popular. I have > been using them in my 14MZ for several years now, without any problems. I > have just changed to the new encoders as a matter of fact. > > I don't understand the statement that HD springs cause undue wear on the > encoders. They are a pivot point, not a pressure point for the > spring/scissor unit. There is just not a problem here. > > The only issues with springs is to make sure the loops are large enough so > the spring can pivot, especially in the grove that is in the plastic > adjuster in the Futaba units. If the loop is too small, the top of the > spring coil will press against the bottom of the adjuster arm and will > actually flex the adjuster, causing it to break over time. When the loop is > large enough so the coil does not touch the adjuster arm, the spring will > just pivot in the groove (as it should). > > I have been flying HD springs since 1981... literally thousands of flights > and never a failure... > > > Tony Stillman, President > Radio South, Inc. > 139 Altama Connector, Box 322 > Brunswick, GA 31525 > 1-800-962-7802 > www.radiosouthrc.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of > adriancwong at earthlink.net > Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:32 PM > To: General pattern discussion; General pattern discussion > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs > > Be careful on using springs that is too stiff. I've be warned that was one > of the reason that can wear out the encoders prematurely. > > Adrian > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Stuart Chale > >Sent: Mar 26, 2009 8:18 PM > >To: General pattern discussion > >Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs > > > >I don't have the link but they were very easy to install. Although > >Futaba says not to use their regular heavy duty springs I did and have > >not had an issue with it. I suspect many have used the same springs. > >The springs that Tony from Radio South sells are stiffer and I guess > >could be a problem if Futaba says that their HD springs are too heavy. > >I suspect that there are people that have installed them as well without > >problems though. > >The main thing is to make sure that the two loops on each end of the > >spring are perpendicular to each other before installing them. A fine > >needle nose plier or thin hemostat makes the job easier. > >Stuart C. > > > >James Oddino wrote: > >> > >> I remember seeing an in depth procedure with photos showing how to > >> replace the springs in a 14MZ. Seems like it was on someone's > >> website. I thought I bookmarked it but I can't seem to find it. > >> anyone know what I'm talking about? > >> > >> Jim O > >> _______________________________________________ > >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list > >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > >> > >> > > > >_______________________________________________ > >NSRCA-discussion mailing list > >NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > >http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From adriancwong at earthlink.net Fri Mar 27 05:37:22 2009 From: adriancwong at earthlink.net (adriancwong at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 13:37:22 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs Message-ID: <17752656.1238161040901.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Tony, I have been using your HD springs on my 9 zaps series for many years with good results. I was also using the HD springs on my 14MZ originally. About 1-1/2 years ago, my 14 started to develop the encoder problem. I sent it back to Hobbico for repair, and was told not to use them. Therefore, I stopped. Adrian -----Original Message----- >From: Tony >Sent: Mar 27, 2009 8:47 AM >To: adriancwong at earthlink.net, 'General pattern discussion' >Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs > >Adrian: >I sell HD springs for all transmitters and they are very popular. I have >been using them in my 14MZ for several years now, without any problems. I >have just changed to the new encoders as a matter of fact. > >I don't understand the statement that HD springs cause undue wear on the >encoders. They are a pivot point, not a pressure point for the >spring/scissor unit. There is just not a problem here. > >The only issues with springs is to make sure the loops are large enough so >the spring can pivot, especially in the grove that is in the plastic >adjuster in the Futaba units. If the loop is too small, the top of the >spring coil will press against the bottom of the adjuster arm and will >actually flex the adjuster, causing it to break over time. When the loop is >large enough so the coil does not touch the adjuster arm, the spring will >just pivot in the groove (as it should). > >I have been flying HD springs since 1981... literally thousands of flights >and never a failure... > > >Tony Stillman, President >Radio South, Inc. >139 Altama Connector, Box 322 >Brunswick, GA 31525 >1-800-962-7802 >www.radiosouthrc.com > >-----Original Message----- >From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org >[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of >adriancwong at earthlink.net >Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:32 PM >To: General pattern discussion; General pattern discussion >Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs > >Be careful on using springs that is too stiff. I've be warned that was one >of the reason that can wear out the encoders prematurely. > >Adrian > >-----Original Message----- >>From: Stuart Chale >>Sent: Mar 26, 2009 8:18 PM >>To: General pattern discussion >>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs >> >>I don't have the link but they were very easy to install. Although >>Futaba says not to use their regular heavy duty springs I did and have >>not had an issue with it. I suspect many have used the same springs. >>The springs that Tony from Radio South sells are stiffer and I guess >>could be a problem if Futaba says that their HD springs are too heavy. >>I suspect that there are people that have installed them as well without >>problems though. >>The main thing is to make sure that the two loops on each end of the >>spring are perpendicular to each other before installing them. A fine >>needle nose plier or thin hemostat makes the job easier. >>Stuart C. >> >>James Oddino wrote: >>> >>> I remember seeing an in depth procedure with photos showing how to >>> replace the springs in a 14MZ. Seems like it was on someone's >>> website. I thought I bookmarked it but I can't seem to find it. >>> anyone know what I'm talking about? >>> >>> Jim O >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>> >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > >_______________________________________________ >NSRCA-discussion mailing list >NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > From vanputte at cox.net Fri Mar 27 05:44:59 2009 From: vanputte at cox.net (Ron Van Putte) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 13:44:59 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Rhino Lipos In-Reply-To: <699957.67638.qm@web33008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <699957.67638.qm@web33008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8DAF1568-4322-43BD-A933-DCF757642425@cox.net> Interesting that you'd say they were too heavy. I have some Vampower 5S-4500 25C packs that I've been using and they have a two-pack weight of 43 oz with connectors. The Rhino 5S-4900 20C two-pack weight is 45 oz. Ron On Mar 26, 2009, at 10:00 PM, Chris Fitzsimmons wrote: > > I have a friend down in so cal running them. He loves them! He is > going to buy more. They are too heavy for me or I would try them. > > Chris > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 26, 2009, at 7:10 PM, Ron Van Putte wrote: > > At the risk of hearing loud guffaws, even way down here in > northwest Florida, also known as "Baja Alabama", I'd like to report > that I just acquired four 5S-4900 mah 20C Rhino lipo packs from > Hobby City to use in a Genesis I just acquired. I have not flown > them in the airplane yet, but I was wondering if anyone out there > has used them in an F3A-size airplane and has some constructive > comments. > > I did not blindly buy these batteries. I saw that Hobby City had a > short-term sale on them, so I quickly checked on R/C Groups and > asked a few people around here if they had experience with them. I > was surprised that I could find NO negative comments about Rhino > battery packs. The local R/C car guys here use and like the 4S > versions, preferring them to some name brands, which I won't mention. > > Any comments? > > Ron Van Putte > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From vanputte at cox.net Fri Mar 27 05:47:09 2009 From: vanputte at cox.net (Ron Van Putte) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 13:47:09 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Rhino Lipos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Georgie. That "warms the cockles" of my Scottish ancestry heart. Ron On Mar 26, 2009, at 10:09 PM, George W.Kennie wrote: > Ron, > > There are guys in two different clubs that I belong to that are > using Rhino paks with fabulous results. > More wattage from a 20C Rhino pak than a 30C Thunder Power Pro (50 > Watts greater on a 4 S pak). > Another one of the guys has been charging at 3C for a year and > taking 3 cell paks down to 8 volts > consistantly with no apparrent degradation in capacity. They give > the impression of indestructability ! > > Just think what's possible when they are properly cared for ! > > G. > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Van Putte" > To: "General pattern discussion" > Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 10:10 PM > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Rhino Lipos > > >> At the risk of hearing loud guffaws, even way down here in >> northwest Florida, also known as "Baja Alabama", I'd like to >> report that I just acquired four 5S-4900 mah 20C Rhino lipo packs >> from Hobby City to use in a Genesis I just acquired. I have not >> flown them in the airplane yet, but I was wondering if anyone out >> there has used them in an F3A- size airplane and has some >> constructive comments. >> >> I did not blindly buy these batteries. I saw that Hobby City had >> a short-term sale on them, so I quickly checked on R/C Groups and >> asked a few people around here if they had experience with them. >> I was surprised that I could find NO negative comments about >> Rhino battery packs. The local R/C car guys here use and like >> the 4S versions, preferring them to some name brands, which I >> won't mention. >> >> Any comments? >> >> Ron Van Putte >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > -- > I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. > We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. > SPAMfighter has removed 25178 of my spam emails to date. > Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len > > The Professional version does not have this message > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From vanputte at cox.net Fri Mar 27 05:55:28 2009 From: vanputte at cox.net (Ron Van Putte) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 13:55:28 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Rhino Lipos In-Reply-To: <638393.15901.qm@web1114.biz.mail.sk1.yahoo.com> References: <638393.15901.qm@web1114.biz.mail.sk1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0AF13CF4-7F09-4A6E-B8F4-6AA9890CC94E@cox.net> That's good to hear. The prices are certainly good. I got four 5S-4900 mah 20C Rhino lipo packs shipped from Hong Kong to my door for $329. Granted, they were on sale, but the regular price is only $20 more per pack. Ron On Mar 27, 2009, at 6:51 AM, Bob Richards wrote: > No laughter from me! I have not flown them in a pattern plane, but > there is a guy in our club running a scale model with Rhino packs > in a 6S setup and he loves them. Sometime in the near future I am > going to get some packs. > > Bob R. > > > --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Ron Van Putte wrote: > > At the risk of hearing loud guffaws, even way down here in > northwest Florida, also known as "Baja Alabama", I'd like to report > that I just acquired four 5S-4900 mah 20C Rhino lipo packs from > Hobby City to use in a Genesis I just acquired. I have not flown > them in the airplane yet, but I was wondering if anyone out there > has used them in an F3A-size airplane and has some constructive > comments. > > I did not blindly buy these batteries. I saw that Hobby City had a > short-term sale on them, so I quickly checked on R/C Groups and > asked a few people around here if they had experience with them. I > was surprised that I could find NO negative comments about Rhino > battery packs. The local R/C car guys here use and like the 4S > versions, preferring them to some name brands, which I won't mention. > > Any comments? > > Ron Van Putte > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From tony at radiosouthrc.com Fri Mar 27 06:36:50 2009 From: tony at radiosouthrc.com (Tony) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 14:36:50 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs In-Reply-To: <17752656.1238161040901.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <17752656.1238161040901.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <27A53DF7F4EC49F3B493399E59465C51@Tony> Yes, I know... I get a lot of complaints about Hobbico service taking out HD springs when they service transmitters. I guess I understand that they want "all Futaba" in their systems, and JR/Horizon does the same thing as well. However, the HD springs just have not proven to be an issue. Tony Stillman, President Radio South, Inc. 139 Altama Connector, Box 322 Brunswick, GA 31525 1-800-962-7802 www.radiosouthrc.com -----Original Message----- From: adriancwong at earthlink.net [mailto:adriancwong at earthlink.net] Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 9:37 AM To: Tony; 'General pattern discussion' Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs Tony, I have been using your HD springs on my 9 zaps series for many years with good results. I was also using the HD springs on my 14MZ originally. About 1-1/2 years ago, my 14 started to develop the encoder problem. I sent it back to Hobbico for repair, and was told not to use them. Therefore, I stopped. Adrian -----Original Message----- >From: Tony >Sent: Mar 27, 2009 8:47 AM >To: adriancwong at earthlink.net, 'General pattern discussion' >Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs > >Adrian: >I sell HD springs for all transmitters and they are very popular. I have >been using them in my 14MZ for several years now, without any problems. I >have just changed to the new encoders as a matter of fact. > >I don't understand the statement that HD springs cause undue wear on the >encoders. They are a pivot point, not a pressure point for the >spring/scissor unit. There is just not a problem here. > >The only issues with springs is to make sure the loops are large enough so >the spring can pivot, especially in the grove that is in the plastic >adjuster in the Futaba units. If the loop is too small, the top of the >spring coil will press against the bottom of the adjuster arm and will >actually flex the adjuster, causing it to break over time. When the loop is >large enough so the coil does not touch the adjuster arm, the spring will >just pivot in the groove (as it should). > >I have been flying HD springs since 1981... literally thousands of flights >and never a failure... > > >Tony Stillman, President >Radio South, Inc. >139 Altama Connector, Box 322 >Brunswick, GA 31525 >1-800-962-7802 >www.radiosouthrc.com > >-----Original Message----- >From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org >[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of >adriancwong at earthlink.net >Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:32 PM >To: General pattern discussion; General pattern discussion >Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs > >Be careful on using springs that is too stiff. I've be warned that was one >of the reason that can wear out the encoders prematurely. > >Adrian > >-----Original Message----- >>From: Stuart Chale >>Sent: Mar 26, 2009 8:18 PM >>To: General pattern discussion >>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs >> >>I don't have the link but they were very easy to install. Although >>Futaba says not to use their regular heavy duty springs I did and have >>not had an issue with it. I suspect many have used the same springs. >>The springs that Tony from Radio South sells are stiffer and I guess >>could be a problem if Futaba says that their HD springs are too heavy. >>I suspect that there are people that have installed them as well without >>problems though. >>The main thing is to make sure that the two loops on each end of the >>spring are perpendicular to each other before installing them. A fine >>needle nose plier or thin hemostat makes the job easier. >>Stuart C. >> >>James Oddino wrote: >>> >>> I remember seeing an in depth procedure with photos showing how to >>> replace the springs in a 14MZ. Seems like it was on someone's >>> website. I thought I bookmarked it but I can't seem to find it. >>> anyone know what I'm talking about? >>> >>> Jim O >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>> >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > >_______________________________________________ >NSRCA-discussion mailing list >NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > From jeff at priusonline.com Fri Mar 27 06:48:07 2009 From: jeff at priusonline.com (Jeff Hatton) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 14:48:07 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Rhino Lipos In-Reply-To: <379623.53564.qm@web51010.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <379623.53564.qm@web51010.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0B1CA896-3CF1-4F6F-AD8A-24CF78090A7E@priusonline.com> I have been using the smaller (3s 2100 and less)rhino lipos in all of my electric planes and have been very happy with the results. I am not carefull with them at all (why bother when they average About $8 each) and they are holding up to the abuse fine. - Jeff Hatton ------ If engineers designed machines like lawyers make laws, you'd need to hire an engineer to operate even the most trivial machine. On Mar 27, 2009, at 8:41 AM, mike mueller wrote: > The litmus test is yet to be determined. How long will they last > under good conditions 80% rule applied. If they last they seem to be > the best value along with the TrueRC's offerings. This is just > another example of E. having more choices that make it cheaper to > do. Who knows where it will be in a few years. My guess is the > current equipment will be obsolete. > We have a prominent flyer here that is doing some very interesting > testing on the Rhino's. I do however agree with Chris that weight > could be a problem. I'm building a hefty plane right now that would > not make weight with these. Mike > > --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Jay Marshall wrote: > From: Jay Marshall > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rhino Lipos > To: "'General pattern discussion'" > Date: Friday, March 27, 2009, 6:57 AM > > George put this together recently: > > > > 3 Cell LiPo Battery Pack Comparison > > (AXI 2212-20, CC25 ESC, APC 8x6e) > > > > 12/23/08 > > > > > > Rating, Rating, > Volts, Volts (min.) Amps > (max.) Watts (max) > RPM, Battery V, Size, > mm, Weight, > > Brand mAH C Rating Amps Charged > after 20 sec. after 20 sec. after > 20 sec. (approx.)* Temp. > Resting LxWxH grams > Cost Supplier > > > > ABF** 1300 20C 26 > 12.49 10.45 > 20.03 > 222.5 11K-13K 83.0 12.00 69 > x35x21 112 $15 Hobby City > > TP 1320 13C 17 > 12.48 10.31 > 19.32 > 205.1 9.9K-10K 99.0 11.97 65 > x33x19 84 $50 > CheapBatteryPacks > > Rhino*** 1550 20C 31 > 12.50 10.98 > 20.79 > 236.1 10K-12K 80.0 12.16 91 > x34x21 140 $16 Hobby City > > Rhino*** 1750 20C 35 > 12.49 11.15 > 20.93 > 240.9 10K-12K 80.0 12.08 91 > x34x23 154 $18 Hobby City > > TP 2000 12C 24 > 12.49 10.55 > 19.84 > 218.6 10K-12K 85.0 12.13 65 > x48x18 122 $73 > CheapBatteryPacks > > TP 2100 15C 31.5 > 12.47 10.71 > 19.81 > 218.3 10K-12K 82.0 12.14 101 > x33x20 142 $70 > CheapBatteryPacks > > TP 3300 25C 82.5 > 12.44 10.35 > 19.02 > 203.8 10K-12K 79.0 12.17 142 > x47x20 271 $125 > CheapBatteryPacks > > > > *Tachometer readings were VERY erratic (indoors) ? readings are NOT > reliable > > **No longer available (quality and performance problems) > > **Best value (I think) > > > > > > > > Jay Marshall > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geobet4 at verizon.net Fri Mar 27 07:28:45 2009 From: geobet4 at verizon.net (George W.Kennie) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 15:28:45 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Rhino Lipos References: Message-ID: Jay, Great work ! I don't know if it's conclusive, but it seems to be indicative of the local experiences in my neck of the woods. Georgie ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay Marshall To: 'General pattern discussion' Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 7:57 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rhino Lipos George put this together recently: 3 Cell LiPo Battery Pack Comparison (AXI 2212-20, CC25 ESC, APC 8x6e) 12/23/08 Rating, Rating, Volts, Volts (min.) Amps (max.) Watts (max) RPM, Battery V, Size, mm, Weight, Brand mAH C Rating Amps Charged after 20 sec. after 20 sec. after 20 sec. (approx.)* Temp. Resting LxWxH grams Cost Supplier ABF** 1300 20C 26 12.49 10.45 20.03 222.5 11K-13K 83.0 12.00 69x35x21 112 $15 Hobby City TP 1320 13C 17 12.48 10.31 19.32 205.1 9.9K-10K 99.0 11.97 65x33x19 84 $50 CheapBatteryPacks Rhino*** 1550 20C 31 12.50 10.98 20.79 236.1 10K-12K 80.0 12.16 91x34x21 140 $16 Hobby City Rhino*** 1750 20C 35 12.49 11.15 20.93 240.9 10K-12K 80.0 12.08 91x34x23 154 $18 Hobby City TP 2000 12C 24 12.49 10.55 19.84 218.6 10K-12K 85.0 12.13 65x48x18 122 $73 CheapBatteryPacks TP 2100 15C 31.5 12.47 10.71 19.81 218.3 10K-12K 82.0 12.14 101x33x20 142 $70 CheapBatteryPacks TP 3300 25C 82.5 12.44 10.35 19.02 203.8 10K-12K 79.0 12.17 142x47x20 271 $125 CheapBatteryPacks *Tachometer readings were VERY erratic (indoors) - readings are NOT reliable **No longer available (quality and performance problems) **Best value (I think) Jay Marshall ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 25178 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 27 08:13:10 2009 From: homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com (krishlan fitzsimmons) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 16:13:10 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Rhino Lipos Message-ID: <430841.16801.qm@web33005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Rhino ? ? ??????????????? 625g each True Rc????????????????? 585g each FP 5350F3A?????????? 575g each New Tp 5300 PL's?? 577each Old Tp 5300 PL's??? 560 each I'm currently running the True Rc's (cuz I can't afford the Tp's) so the difference for me would be 2.84 ounces. For the FP's or TP's the difference is around 3.5 ounces. My reason for saying they are too heavy for me.. Chris ? ? ? --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Ron Van Putte wrote: From: Ron Van Putte Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rhino Lipos To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Friday, March 27, 2009, 6:45 AM Interesting that you'd say they were too heavy.? I have some Vampower 5S-4500 25C packs that I've been using and they have a two-pack weight of 43 oz with connectors.? The Rhino 5S-4900 20C two-pack weight is 45 oz. Ron On Mar 26, 2009, at 10:00 PM, Chris Fitzsimmons wrote: > > I have a friend down in so cal running them. He loves them! He is going to buy more. They are too heavy for me or I would try them. > > Chris > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 26, 2009, at 7:10 PM, Ron Van Putte wrote: > > At the risk of hearing loud guffaws, even way down here in northwest Florida, also known as "Baja Alabama", I'd like to report that I just acquired four 5S-4900 mah 20C Rhino lipo packs from Hobby City to use in a Genesis I just acquired.? I have not flown them in the airplane yet, but I was wondering if anyone out there has used them in an F3A-size airplane and has some constructive comments. > > I did not blindly buy these batteries.? I saw that Hobby City had a short-term sale on them, so I quickly checked on R/C Groups and asked a few people around here if they had experience with them.? I was surprised that I could find NO negative comments about Rhino battery packs.? The local R/C car guys here use and like the 4S versions, preferring them to some name brands, which I won't mention. > > Any comments? > > Ron Van Putte > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kvelez at rochester.rr.com Fri Mar 27 10:50:49 2009 From: kvelez at rochester.rr.com (Ken Velez) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 18:50:49 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] D1 Shirts In-Reply-To: <209848.27516.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <85BF6F89D6AD48A39CBB1932BCEB9C84@ken42e65a0511d> Hi Jim, Did you placed the order yet? Is there possibility to order? I was out of town and did not catch your message on time. If possible (2) 4X and (1) L shirts. Ken _____ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Jim Quinn Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 10:30 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] D1 Shirts Last call for D1 shirts. I will be signing the contract with AMA on Monday. If you still haven't ordered a beautiful D1 shirt call me today, Sunday, March 22 at 315.292.0309. Jim Q. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 27 10:55:44 2009 From: homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com (krishlan fitzsimmons) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 18:55:44 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] IR meter Message-ID: <608849.25975.qm@web33004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Did you guys see this yet? Could be helpful if your charger doesn't do it. http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=980290 Chris ? ? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joddino at socal.rr.com Fri Mar 27 14:01:56 2009 From: joddino at socal.rr.com (James Oddino) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 22:01:56 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs In-Reply-To: <29842D4801444D58AA8F2FD1B89A784A@Dave007> References: <179662.80049.qm@web80501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6377D0A1-705D-422B-8FD6-13295A37F116@socal.rr.com> <29842D4801444D58AA8F2FD1B89A784A@Dave007> Message-ID: <7917A530-EF46-4F5E-9A8D-8C0843D605B7@socal.rr.com> Dave's picasa was what I was looking for. I had it all the time. Thanks. Now the question is, will stiffer springs help my flying? Jim O On Mar 26, 2009, at 6:39 PM, Dave Reaville wrote: > Hi Jim > > I don't profess to know the issues with the encoders but the > procedure is show here... pretty straight forward. > > http://picasaweb.google.com/Dave.Reaville/14MZGimbalSpringChange > > Dave > ----- Original Message ----- > From: James Oddino > To: General discussion > Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 4:20 PM > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs > > > I remember seeing an in depth procedure with photos showing how to > replace the springs in a 14MZ. Seems like it was on someone's > website. I thought I bookmarked it but I can't seem to find it. > anyone know what I'm talking about? > > Jim O > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlkonn at hotmail.com Fri Mar 27 15:54:49 2009 From: jlkonn at hotmail.com (John Konneker) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 23:54:49 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs In-Reply-To: <7917A530-EF46-4F5E-9A8D-8C0843D605B7@socal.rr.com> References: <179662.80049.qm@web80501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6377D0A1-705D-422B-8FD6-13295A37F116@socal.rr.com> <29842D4801444D58AA8F2FD1B89A784A@Dave007> <7917A530-EF46-4F5E-9A8D-8C0843D605B7@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: Man Jim... I wish there was something like this for my 12X. JLK From: joddino at socal.rr.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 15:01:52 -0700 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs Dave's picasa was what I was looking for. I had it all the time. Thanks. Now the question is, will stiffer springs help my flying? Jim O On Mar 26, 2009, at 6:39 PM, Dave Reaville wrote: Hi Jim I don't profess to know the issues with the encoders but the procedure is show here... pretty straight forward. http://picasaweb.google.com/Dave.Reaville/14MZGimbalSpringChange Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: James Oddino To: General discussion Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 4:20 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs I remember seeing an in depth procedure with photos showing how to replace the springs in a 14MZ. Seems like it was on someone's website. I thought I bookmarked it but I can't seem to find it. anyone know what I'm talking about? Jim O _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AtwoodDon at aol.com Fri Mar 27 16:22:34 2009 From: AtwoodDon at aol.com (AtwoodDon at aol.com) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 00:22:34 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] IR meter Message-ID: I have one, caught the discussion thread just as it started and jumped on the initial orders. It works as expected. Although the IR numbers are substantially higher than what the FMA charger reports the relationship of the IR numbers between the cells is proportionately the same. The IRM shows IR ohms about 7-8 times that of the FMA CellPro 10S. Which one is right? I dunno, but when I asked why they were so different, I got a very long explanation that I did not understand. All I know is the ratios seem to stay the same between them on the same batteries. It is well made tho I don't care for the small plugs for balance taps, that is kinda clumsy, but it works as advertised. Don In a message dated 3/27/2009 11:55:58 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com writes: Did you guys see this yet? Could be helpful if your charger doesn't do it. _http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=980290_ (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=980290) Chris _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at toprudder.com Fri Mar 27 19:42:02 2009 From: bob at toprudder.com (Bob Richards) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 03:42:02 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs Message-ID: <406674.74830.qm@web1103.biz.mail.sk1.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 3/27/09, James Oddino wrote: Now the question is, will stiffer springs help my flying? ? Depends. How much did you pay for them?? ;-) ? Bob R. ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From derekkoopowitz at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 08:35:36 2009 From: derekkoopowitz at gmail.com (Derek Koopowitz) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 16:35:36 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 2011 F3A World Championship Message-ID: <3454543c0903280935h4d7709afs7b24a09062bdaa25@mail.gmail.com> The CIAM has just selected the USA to host the 2011 F3A World Championship in Muncie. Thank you to all the officers, board and AMA personnel that helped with the presentation and guidance in order for us to be awarded the WC's. My thanks also go to several people that approached me with the idea of hosting the WC's... Earl Haury and Tim Jesky were the main "culprits" but during the months that followed, many others confirmed to me that they saw a lot of value in the US hosting. See you in 2011! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atwoodm at paragon-inc.com Sat Mar 28 08:39:13 2009 From: atwoodm at paragon-inc.com (Atwood, Mark) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 16:39:13 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 2011 F3A World Championship Message-ID: <99B8EFCA36A5724F87FF3C71B431D87204503E49E9@PEVM01.paragon-inc.com> Well Done to all involved!!! -Mark -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld ----- Original Message ----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sat Mar 28 12:35:35 2009 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 2011 F3A World Championship The CIAM has just selected the USA to host the 2011 F3A World Championship in Muncie. Thank you to all the officers, board and AMA personnel that helped with the presentation and guidance in order for us to be awarded the WC's. My thanks also go to several people that approached me with the idea of hosting the WC's... Earl Haury and Tim Jesky were the main "culprits" but during the months that followed, many others confirmed to me that they saw a lot of value in the US hosting. See you in 2011! From wilsorc at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 08:39:59 2009 From: wilsorc at gmail.com (Bob Wilson) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 16:39:59 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Paint Message-ID: <888fdd980903280939l267853adp65286d0e55de1eea@mail.gmail.com> All, I'm just about done repairing a damaged "Icepoint" sold to me by a friend and need to repaint the cowl and belly pan. Any suggestions as to type of paint. Thanks, Bob Wilson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From astafford at swtexas.net Sat Mar 28 08:49:19 2009 From: astafford at swtexas.net (Archie Stafford) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 16:49:19 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 2011 F3A World Championship In-Reply-To: <99B8EFCA36A5724F87FF3C71B431D87204503E49E9@PEVM01.paragon-inc.com> References: <99B8EFCA36A5724F87FF3C71B431D87204503E49E9@PEVM01.paragon-inc.com> Message-ID: <00a901c9afc5$1294f5a0$37bee0e0$@net> GREAT NEWS DEREK!!! Looking forward to it. I'll be glad to help anyway I can. Arch -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 11:36 AM To: 'nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org' Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2011 F3A World Championship Well Done to all involved!!! -Mark -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld ----- Original Message ----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sat Mar 28 12:35:35 2009 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 2011 F3A World Championship The CIAM has just selected the USA to host the 2011 F3A World Championship in Muncie. Thank you to all the officers, board and AMA personnel that helped with the presentation and guidance in order for us to be awarded the WC's. My thanks also go to several people that approached me with the idea of hosting the WC's... Earl Haury and Tim Jesky were the main "culprits" but during the months that followed, many others confirmed to me that they saw a lot of value in the US hosting. See you in 2011! _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From rforbus at hotmail.com Sat Mar 28 09:05:23 2009 From: rforbus at hotmail.com (Randy Forbus) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 17:05:23 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Paint In-Reply-To: <888fdd980903280939l267853adp65286d0e55de1eea@mail.gmail.com> References: <888fdd980903280939l267853adp65286d0e55de1eea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Ive used auto zone truck paint in rattle can with good results the acrylic enamel its good up to 15% nitro maybe higher, im sure you can find something close that match the orginal blue Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 11:39:58 -0500 From: wilsorc at gmail.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Paint All, I'm just about done repairing a damaged "Icepoint" sold to me by a friend and need to repaint the cowl and belly pan. Any suggestions as to type of paint. Thanks, Bob Wilson _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_70faster_032009 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ksutherland at hughes.net Sat Mar 28 11:44:55 2009 From: ksutherland at hughes.net (ksutherland) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 19:44:55 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Needed PBG 7/8 x 30 Tube Set Message-ID: <1331527143.41203.1238269492009.JavaMail.mail@webmail08> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chuenkan at comcast.net Sat Mar 28 11:45:06 2009 From: chuenkan at comcast.net (Phil Spelt) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 19:45:06 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Paint In-Reply-To: <888fdd980903280939l267853adp65286d0e55de1eea@mail.gmail.co m> References: <888fdd980903280939l267853adp65286d0e55de1eea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090328194505.6EBAE1160E@bridi.netexpress.com> Bob -- Fuelproof!!!! :-D :-D You are fortunate, I absolutely TOTALED my Icepoint in a contest last August. I'm now reworking an Evolution -- to have my color scheme and some "upgrades" to the airframe. It'll be propelled by a 140RX, and guided by a JR X-9303. At 12:39 PM 3/28/2009, you wrote: >All, >I'm just about done repairing a damaged "Icepoint" sold to me by a >friend and need to repaint the cowl and belly pan. Any suggestions >as to type of paint. > >Thanks, >Bob Wilson >_______________________________________________ >NSRCA-discussion mailing list >NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -->There are only two types of aircraft -- fighters and targets. Phil Spelt, Webmaster & Past President, Knox County Radio Control Society, Inc. URL: http://www.kcrctn.com AMA--1294, Scientific Leader Member, SPA--177 My URL: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/~chuenkan/ (865) 435-1476 v (865) 604-0541 c -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tony at radiosouthrc.com Sat Mar 28 12:00:14 2009 From: tony at radiosouthrc.com (Tony) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 20:00:14 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 2011 F3A World Championship In-Reply-To: <3454543c0903280935h4d7709afs7b24a09062bdaa25@mail.gmail.com> References: <3454543c0903280935h4d7709afs7b24a09062bdaa25@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Great news, Derek! Apparently, your hard work on the presentation paid off! Tony Stillman, President Radio South, Inc. 139 Altama Connector, Box 322 Brunswick, GA 31525 1-800-962-7802 www.radiosouthrc.com _____ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Derek Koopowitz Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 12:36 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 2011 F3A World Championship The CIAM has just selected the USA to host the 2011 F3A World Championship in Muncie. Thank you to all the officers, board and AMA personnel that helped with the presentation and guidance in order for us to be awarded the WC's. My thanks also go to several people that approached me with the idea of hosting the WC's... Earl Haury and Tim Jesky were the main "culprits" but during the months that followed, many others confirmed to me that they saw a lot of value in the US hosting. See you in 2011! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trexlesh at msn.com Sat Mar 28 12:11:52 2009 From: trexlesh at msn.com (Rex) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 20:11:52 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Needed PBG 7/8 x 30 Tube Set In-Reply-To: <1331527143.41203.1238269492009.JavaMail.mail@webmail08> References: <1331527143.41203.1238269492009.JavaMail.mail@webmail08> Message-ID: Kirk I'm assuming you need both the tube and socket? Budd Engineering has the tube in stock. It's pretty easy to make a socket. Rex Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 19:44:51 +0000 From: ksutherland at hughes.net To: NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Needed PBG 7/8 x 30 Tube Set Hello all I am in need of a PBG 7/8 X 30 tube set . I cant seem to find one at the usual places they are out of stock with no idea when more will be in. Anyone have a new set they would sell or know of a place to get one? Thanks Kirk ksutherland at hughes.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KTHOMPSON56 at satx.rr.com Sat Mar 28 12:17:06 2009 From: KTHOMPSON56 at satx.rr.com (Ken Thompson) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 20:17:06 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 2011 F3A World Championship References: <3454543c0903280935h4d7709afs7b24a09062bdaa25@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002001c9afe2$96551d80$0200a8c0@kencopepere> Great News Derek!! A huge congrat's to all involved, I'm sure it took a ton of work to make this happen. Ken ----- Original Message ----- From: Derek Koopowitz To: General pattern discussion Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 11:35 AM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 2011 F3A World Championship The CIAM has just selected the USA to host the 2011 F3A World Championship in Muncie. Thank you to all the officers, board and AMA personnel that helped with the presentation and guidance in order for us to be awarded the WC's. My thanks also go to several people that approached me with the idea of hosting the WC's... Earl Haury and Tim Jesky were the main "culprits" but during the months that followed, many others confirmed to me that they saw a lot of value in the US hosting. See you in 2011! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pcosky at comcast.net Sat Mar 28 12:34:19 2009 From: pcosky at comcast.net (Pete Cosky) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 20:34:19 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Needed PBG 7/8 x 30 Tube Set In-Reply-To: <1331527143.41203.1238269492009.JavaMail.mail@webmail08> References: <1331527143.41203.1238269492009.JavaMail.mail@webmail08> Message-ID: Kirk, I went through that last fall and wound up buying a tube and making my own socket. It isn't that tough, but you want to be careful or you'll wind up cutting the socket off the tube...ask me how I know. Once you have done it though it's a no brainer. Pete _____ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of ksutherland Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 3:45 PM To: NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Needed PBG 7/8 x 30 Tube Set Hello all I am in need of a PBG 7/8 X 30 tube set . I cant seem to find one at the usual places they are out of stock with no idea when more will be in. Anyone have a new set they would sell or know of a place to get one? Thanks Kirk ksutherland at hughes.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From flyintexan at att.net Sat Mar 28 13:48:49 2009 From: flyintexan at att.net (Mark Hunt) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 21:48:49 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 2011 F3A World Championship References: <3454543c0903280935h4d7709afs7b24a09062bdaa25@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <34B0281BBDBC42C383A5A14F10D1639A@MARK> Great work Derek! ----- Original Message ----- From: Derek Koopowitz To: General pattern discussion Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 11:35 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 2011 F3A World Championship The CIAM has just selected the USA to host the 2011 F3A World Championship in Muncie. Thank you to all the officers, board and AMA personnel that helped with the presentation and guidance in order for us to be awarded the WC's. My thanks also go to several people that approached me with the idea of hosting the WC's... Earl Haury and Tim Jesky were the main "culprits" but during the months that followed, many others confirmed to me that they saw a lot of value in the US hosting. See you in 2011! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dkrev at shaw.ca Sat Mar 28 14:22:43 2009 From: dkrev at shaw.ca (dkrev at shaw.ca) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 22:22:43 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Northeast Wins! Message-ID: <8270635-1238278960-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1179212559-@bxe1138.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Chad Northeast wins Kamloops E fest in F3P. Everyone is having fun! More later! Dave Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network From vanputte at cox.net Sat Mar 28 15:29:16 2009 From: vanputte at cox.net (Ron Van Putte) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 23:29:16 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 2011 F3A World Championship In-Reply-To: <3454543c0903280935h4d7709afs7b24a09062bdaa25@mail.gmail.com> References: <3454543c0903280935h4d7709afs7b24a09062bdaa25@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00054AAD-9E66-4FDC-8C79-97D3BD404EFE@cox.net> Good job Derek. Ron On Mar 28, 2009, at 11:35 AM, Derek Koopowitz wrote: > The CIAM has just selected the USA to host the 2011 F3A World > Championship in Muncie. Thank you to all the officers, board and > AMA personnel that helped with the presentation and guidance in > order for us to be awarded the WC's. My thanks also go to several > people that approached me with the idea of hosting the WC's... Earl > Haury and Tim Jesky were the main "culprits" but during the months > that followed, many others confirmed to me that they saw a lot of > value in the US hosting. > > See you in 2011! > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From jaqfly at prodigy.net Sat Mar 28 15:57:42 2009 From: jaqfly at prodigy.net (Jim Quinn) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 23:57:42 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 2011 F3A World Championship In-Reply-To: <3454543c0903280935h4d7709afs7b24a09062bdaa25@mail.gmail.com> References: <3454543c0903280935h4d7709afs7b24a09062bdaa25@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <730915.7176.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> GREAT JOB Derek! Jim Quinn ________________________________ From: Derek Koopowitz To: General pattern discussion Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 12:35:35 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 2011 F3A World Championship The CIAM has just selected the USA to host the 2011 F3A World Championship in Muncie.? Thank you to all the officers, board and AMA personnel that helped with the presentation and guidance in order for us to be awarded the WC's.? My thanks also go to several people that approached me with the idea of hosting the WC's... Earl Haury and Tim Jesky were the main "culprits" but during the months that followed, many others confirmed to me that they saw a lot of value in the US hosting. See you in 2011! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maureendunphy at bellsouth.net Sat Mar 28 18:49:45 2009 From: maureendunphy at bellsouth.net (MAUREEN DUNPHY) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 02:49:45 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Needed PBG 7/8 x 30 Tube Set References: <1331527143.41203.1238269492009.JavaMail.mail@webmail08> Message-ID: <736367.10638.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I believe Tony Stillman has some. Maureen ?PAC R/C Hobbies 215 South Lowry Street Smyrna, TN 37167 615-220-0655 www.pac-rc.com ________________________________ From: ksutherland To: NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 2:44:51 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Needed PBG 7/8 x 30 Tube Set ?Hello all I am in need of a PBG 7/8 X 30 tube set . I cant seem to find one at the usual places they are out of stock with no idea when more will be in. Anyone?have a new set they would sell or know of a place to get one?? Thanks Kirk ksutherland at hughes.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maureendunphy at bellsouth.net Sat Mar 28 18:51:16 2009 From: maureendunphy at bellsouth.net (MAUREEN DUNPHY) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 02:51:16 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 2011 F3A World Championship References: <3454543c0903280935h4d7709afs7b24a09062bdaa25@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <241818.80860.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Fantastic.? Good job! Maureen ?PAC R/C Hobbies 215 South Lowry Street Smyrna, TN 37167 615-220-0655 www.pac-rc.com ________________________________ From: Derek Koopowitz To: General pattern discussion Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 11:35:35 AM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 2011 F3A World Championship The CIAM has just selected the USA to host the 2011 F3A World Championship in Muncie.? Thank you to all the officers, board and AMA personnel that helped with the presentation and guidance in order for us to be awarded the WC's.? My thanks also go to several people that approached me with the idea of hosting the WC's... Earl Haury and Tim Jesky were the main "culprits" but during the months that followed, many others confirmed to me that they saw a lot of value in the US hosting. See you in 2011! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atwoodm at paragon-inc.com Sat Mar 28 18:52:23 2009 From: atwoodm at paragon-inc.com (Atwood, Mark) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 02:52:23 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Needed PBG 7/8 x 30 Tube Set Message-ID: <99B8EFCA36A5724F87FF3C71B431D87204503E49F4@PEVM01.paragon-inc.com> I have a PBG phenolic I would trade for the PBG tube! I'm a tube short. Try not to run with that one ... Lol -Mark -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld ----- Original Message ----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sat Mar 28 22:49:42 2009 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Needed PBG 7/8 x 30 Tube Set I believe Tony Stillman has some. Maureen PAC R/C Hobbies 215 South Lowry Street Smyrna, TN 37167 615-220-0655 www.pac-rc.com ________________________________ From: ksutherland To: NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 2:44:51 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Needed PBG 7/8 x 30 Tube Set Hello all I am in need of a PBG 7/8 X 30 tube set . I cant seem to find one at the usual places they are out of stock with no idea when more will be in. Anyone have a new set they would sell or know of a place to get one? Thanks Kirk ksutherland at hughes.net From pcosky at comcast.net Sat Mar 28 19:17:15 2009 From: pcosky at comcast.net (Pete Cosky) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 03:17:15 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Needed PBG 7/8 x 30 Tube Set Message-ID: <20090329031714.5BF7E11540@bridi.netexpress.com> Too easy.... Pete Cosky Sent from my Windows Mobile device -----Original Message----- From: Atwood, Mark Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 10:49 PM To: 'nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org' Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Needed PBG 7/8 x 30 Tube Set I have a PBG phenolic I would trade for the PBG tube! I'm a tube short. Try not to run with that one ... Lol -Mark -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld ----- Original Message ----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sat Mar 28 22:49:42 2009 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Needed PBG 7/8 x 30 Tube Set I believe Tony Stillman has some. Maureen PAC R/C Hobbies 215 South Lowry Street Smyrna, TN 37167 [The entire original message is not included] From jaqfly at prodigy.net Sun Mar 29 16:28:38 2009 From: jaqfly at prodigy.net (Jim Quinn) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 00:28:38 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] D 1 Judging Seminar In-Reply-To: <99B8EFCA36A5724F87FF3C71B431D87204503E49F4@PEVM01.paragon-inc.com> References: <99B8EFCA36A5724F87FF3C71B431D87204503E49F4@PEVM01.paragon-inc.com> Message-ID: <687028.70650.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Judging Seminar April 25, 2009 George F. Johnson Memorial Library 1001 Park Street Endicott, NY 13760 ? Presenter: Bob Noll Host: Jim Quinn ? Registration: ???? ??9:30 Coffee/Donuts? ? 9:30 Presentation 1?? ? 10:00 Lunch?? ??????????? ? 12:00 Presentation ?2? ? 1:00 ? Cost: $20.00 Includes Breakfast and Lunch ? Advanced notification of participation appreciated. Email: JAQFLY at Prodigy.net Phone: 315.292.0309 From rcairbob1 at comcast.net Sun Mar 29 16:59:15 2009 From: rcairbob1 at comcast.net (Robert Satalino) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 00:59:15 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs In-Reply-To: <7917A530-EF46-4F5E-9A8D-8C0843D605B7@socal.rr.com> References: <179662.80049.qm@web80501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6377D0A1-705D-422B-8FD6-13295A37F116@socal.rr.com> <29842D4801444D58AA8F2FD1B89A784A@Dave007> <7917A530-EF46-4F5E-9A8D-8C0843D605B7@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <2DE3F9DF-4753-4275-83E2-7AA2EADBE3D1@comcast.net> I use simple relay springs. They work great , they are used and are free. Robert Satalino rcairbob1 at comcast.net On Mar 27, 2009, at 5:01 PM, James Oddino wrote: > Dave's picasa was what I was looking for. I had it all the time. > Thanks. > > Now the question is, will stiffer springs help my flying? > > Jim O > > > > On Mar 26, 2009, at 6:39 PM, Dave Reaville wrote: > >> Hi Jim >> >> I don't profess to know the issues with the encoders but the >> procedure is show here... pretty straight forward. >> >> http://picasaweb.google.com/Dave.Reaville/14MZGimbalSpringChange >> >> Dave >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: James Oddino >> To: General discussion >> Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 4:20 PM >> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs >> >> >> I remember seeing an in depth procedure with photos showing how to >> replace the springs in a 14MZ. Seems like it was on someone's >> website. I thought I bookmarked it but I can't seem to find it. >> anyone know what I'm talking about? >> >> Jim O >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chuenkan at comcast.net Sun Mar 29 17:27:18 2009 From: chuenkan at comcast.net (Phil Spelt) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 01:27:18 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs In-Reply-To: <2DE3F9DF-4753-4275-83E2-7AA2EADBE3D1@comcast.net> References: <179662.80049.qm@web80501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6377D0A1-705D-422B-8FD6-13295A37F116@socal.rr.com> <29842D4801444D58AA8F2FD1B89A784A@Dave007> <7917A530-EF46-4F5E-9A8D-8C0843D605B7@socal.rr.com> <2DE3F9DF-4753-4275-83E2-7AA2EADBE3D1@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20090330012717.AC7DC11543@bridi.netexpress.com> Right, and you get them where????? At 08:59 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote: >I use simple relay springs. They work great , they are used and are free. > > >Robert Satalino >rcairbob1 at comcast.net > > > >On Mar 27, 2009, at 5:01 PM, James Oddino wrote: > >>Dave's picasa was what I was looking for. I had it all the time. Thanks. >> >>Now the question is, will stiffer springs help my flying? >> >>Jim O >> >> >> >>On Mar 26, 2009, at 6:39 PM, Dave Reaville wrote: >> >>>Hi Jim >>> >>>I don't profess to know the issues with the encoders but the >>>procedure is show here... pretty straight forward. >>> >>>http://picasaweb.google.com/Dave.Reaville/14MZGimbalSpringChange >>> >>>Dave >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: James Oddino >>>To: General discussion >>>Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 4:20 PM >>>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs >>> >>> >>>I remember seeing an in depth procedure with photos showing how to >>>replace the springs in a 14MZ. Seems like it was on someone's >>>website. I thought I bookmarked it but I can't seem to find it. >>>anyone know what I'm talking about? >>> >>>Jim O >>>_______________________________________________ >>>NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>>NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>>NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >>_______________________________________________ >>NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > >_______________________________________________ >NSRCA-discussion mailing list >NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -->There are only two types of aircraft -- fighters and targets. Phil Spelt, Webmaster & Past President, Knox County Radio Control Society, Inc. URL: http://www.kcrctn.com AMA--1294, Scientific Leader Member, SPA--177 My URL: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/~chuenkan/ (865) 435-1476 v (865) 604-0541 c -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joddino at socal.rr.com Sun Mar 29 19:31:23 2009 From: joddino at socal.rr.com (James Oddino) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 03:31:23 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] IR meter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8267C61B-AC79-486C-BB07-4273AE0F2E31@socal.rr.com> Don, I would say the FMA is closer to the real value. I'll look at some inflight data but just as a test of reasonableness I looked at the data I sent you recently where I was pulling about 98 Amps at 39 volts. My pack has about 3 mOhms per cell according to the FMA times 10 cells is .03 Ohms for the pack. 98 x .03 = 2.94 volts If the resistance was 7 times higher the drop would be seven times higher or around 21 volts. Something is wrong with his algorithm. Jim On Mar 27, 2009, at 5:22 PM, atwooddon at aol.com wrote: > I have one, caught the discussion thread just as it started and > jumped on the initial orders. It works as expected. Although the IR > numbers are substantially higher than what the FMA charger reports > the relationship of the IR numbers between the cells is > proportionately the same. The IRM shows IR ohms about 7-8 times > that of the FMA CellPro 10S. Which one is right? I dunno, but when > I asked why they were so different, I got a very long explanation > that I did not understand. All I know is the ratios seem to stay > the same between them on the same batteries. > > It is well made tho I don't care for the small plugs for balance > taps, that is kinda clumsy, but it works as advertised. > > Don > > In a message dated 3/27/2009 11:55:58 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com > writes: > Did you guys see this yet? Could be helpful if your charger doesn't > do it. > > http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=980290 > > Chris > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10. > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AtwoodDon at aol.com Sun Mar 29 20:28:00 2009 From: AtwoodDon at aol.com (AtwoodDon at aol.com) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 04:28:00 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] IR meter Message-ID: I agree, since I have to charge anyway, I am going to believe the CellPro. I sold the IRM to someone that was unhappy they were sold out when he went to order...... D In a message dated 3/29/2009 8:31:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, joddino at socal.rr.com writes: Don, I would say the FMA is closer to the real value. I'll look at some inflight data but just as a test of reasonableness I looked at the data I sent you recently where I was pulling about 98 Amps at 39 volts. My pack has about 3 mOhms per cell according to the FMA times 10 cells is .03 Ohms for the pack. 98 x .03 = 2.94 volts If the resistance was 7 times higher the drop would be seven times higher or around 21 volts. Something is wrong with his algorithm. Jim On Mar 27, 2009, at 5:22 PM, _atwooddon at aol.com_ (mailto:atwooddon at aol.com) wrote: I have one, caught the discussion thread just as it started and jumped on the initial orders. It works as expected. Although the IR numbers are substantially higher than what the FMA charger reports the relationship of the IR numbers between the cells is proportionately the same. The IRM shows IR ohms about 7-8 times that of the FMA CellPro 10S. Which one is right? I dunno, but when I asked why they were so different, I got a very long explanation that I did not understand. All I know is the ratios seem to stay the same between them on the same batteries. It is well made tho I don't care for the small plugs for balance taps, that is kinda clumsy, but it works as advertised. Don In a message dated 3/27/2009 11:55:58 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, _homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com_ (mailto:homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com) writes: Did you guys see this yet? Could be helpful if your charger doesn't do it. _http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=980290_ (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=980290) Chris _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list _NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org_ (mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org) http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ____________________________________ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? _Make meals for under $10_ (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) . _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list _NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org_ (mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org) http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion = _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-ind ustries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000003) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 29 21:53:33 2009 From: homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com (krishlan fitzsimmons) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 05:53:33 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] IR meter Message-ID: <59050.60020.qm@web33007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Interesting. Well, maybe someone will come up with a good one at some point for those that don't use a Cellpro. I can't say my Cellpro is accurate, just that it works and gives me something to base my batteries off of. Jim, Any idea why 2 and 3 cell packs have such a high resistance? Even new mine are over 20. Hard to tell when they are bad. Something interesting is that on my AFPD sim, I was just flying the Spark. I haven't flown it much as there are a few things I don't care for compared to others that I have on there. One was that it felt underpowered. An easy change normally, just never did it. But instead of altering the motor, I went and looked into the batteries. The resistance was set at 13.0. I changed it to 2.0 and now the plane it silly fast. Not sure that means anything, just found it interesting. Thanks, Chris ? ? ? --- On Sun, 3/29/09, AtwoodDon at aol.com wrote: From: AtwoodDon at aol.com Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] IR meter To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Sunday, March 29, 2009, 9:27 PM I agree, since I have to charge anyway, I am going to believe the CellPro.? I sold the IRM to someone that was unhappy they were sold out when he went to order......? ? D ? In a message dated 3/29/2009 8:31:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, joddino at socal.rr.com writes: Don, I would say the FMA is closer to the real value. ?I'll look at some inflight data but just as a test of reasonableness I looked at the data I sent you recently where I was pulling about 98 Amps at 39 volts. ?My pack has about 3 mOhms per cell according to the FMA times 10 cells is .03 Ohms for the pack. ?98 x .03 = 2.94 volts ?If the resistance was 7 times higher the drop would be seven times higher or around 21 volts. ?Something is wrong with his algorithm. Jim On Mar 27, 2009, at 5:22 PM, atwooddon at aol.com wrote: I have one, caught the discussion thread just as it started and jumped on the initial orders.? It works as expected. Although the IR numbers are substantially higher than what the FMA charger reports the relationship of the IR numbers between the cells is? proportionately the same.? The IRM shows IR ohms about 7-8 times that of the FMA CellPro 10S.? Which one is right?? I dunno, but when I asked why they were so different, I got a very long explanation that I did not understand.? All I know is the ratios seem to stay the same between them on the same batteries.? ? It is well made tho I don't care for the small plugs for balance taps, that is kinda clumsy, but it works as advertised. ? Don ? In a message dated 3/27/2009 11:55:58 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com writes: Did you guys see this yet? Could be helpful if your charger doesn't do it. http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=980290 Chris ? ? ? _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10._______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion = _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adriancwong at earthlink.net Sun Mar 29 22:13:09 2009 From: adriancwong at earthlink.net (adriancwong at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 06:13:09 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For sale - X-treme Composite Astral XX Message-ID: <26138274.1238393587108.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> It's the beginning of a new flying season, and I have the following plane for sale, an X-treme Composite Astral XX. I flew the plane for one season, top condition. It's set up for the following equipment:- YS 170 with Budd mount Hatori header & short pipe Nishioka soft pipe mount K&S 600 cc tank All Futaba digital servos Without equipment, I'm asking for $800.00, or best offer, but you will get the following with the plane:- Engine mount Pipe mount All push rods & servo horns Canard landing gear with 3 sets of wheel pants Two sets of bellypan Two sets of stabilizer - one set of zero and one set of -5 degrees anhedral I live in San Francisco, CA and do not want to ship. However, I can you meet you as far as Fresno area for delivery. In addition, I will be attending D-7's judge training seminar on 4/11 in Sacramento, and can bring the plane with me. Any interested party please contact me off list - adriancwong at earthlink.net Thank you, Adrian Wong From vanputte at cox.net Mon Mar 30 03:08:01 2009 From: vanputte at cox.net (Ron Van Putte) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 11:08:01 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] IR meter In-Reply-To: <59050.60020.qm@web33007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <59050.60020.qm@web33007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3E4F7003-0C29-4F3E-8D62-63A3236C5D35@cox.net> About two years ago I reported on the Lipo Doc, which a friend of mine had designed, to measure cell internal resistance. It uses two volt meters (you can use one, but two is easier). I built one for myself and sent the plans/schematic to several people. A couple of my club members built them and I rewired up one that Emory Schroeter had butchered. I think Earl Haury made one as well. It is very inexpensive and all parts can be purchased at Radio Shack. The problem is that you have to make it yourself and in this ARF-only society, only the avid individual will tackle the job. I will send the information to anyone who's interested, but be forewarned that it takes about two hours to completely fabricate. Ron Van Putte On Mar 30, 2009, at 1:53 AM, krishlan fitzsimmons wrote: > Interesting. Well, maybe someone will come up with a good one at > some point for those that don't use a Cellpro. I can't say my > Cellpro is accurate, just that it works and gives me something to > base my batteries off of. > > Jim, > > Any idea why 2 and 3 cell packs have such a high resistance? Even > new mine are over 20. Hard to tell when they are bad. > > Something interesting is that on my AFPD sim, I was just flying the > Spark. I haven't flown it much as there are a few things I don't > care for compared to others that I have on there. One was that it > felt underpowered. An easy change normally, just never did it. But > instead of altering the motor, I went and looked into the > batteries. The resistance was set at 13.0. I changed it to 2.0 and > now the plane it silly fast. Not sure that means anything, just > found it interesting. > > Thanks, > > Chris > > > > > > --- On Sun, 3/29/09, AtwoodDon at aol.com wrote: > > From: AtwoodDon at aol.com > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] IR meter > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Date: Sunday, March 29, 2009, 9:27 PM > > I agree, since I have to charge anyway, I am going to believe the > CellPro. I sold the IRM to someone that was unhappy they were sold > out when he went to order...... > > D > > In a message dated 3/29/2009 8:31:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > joddino at socal.rr.com writes: > Don, > > I would say the FMA is closer to the real value. I'll look at some > inflight data but just as a test of reasonableness I looked at the > data I sent you recently where I was pulling about 98 Amps at 39 > volts. My pack has about 3 mOhms per cell according to the FMA > times 10 cells is .03 Ohms for the pack. 98 x .03 = 2.94 volts If > the resistance was 7 times higher the drop would be seven times > higher or around 21 volts. Something is wrong with his algorithm. > > Jim > On Mar 27, 2009, at 5:22 PM, atwooddon at aol.com wrote: > >> I have one, caught the discussion thread just as it started and >> jumped on the initial orders. It works as expected. Although the >> IR numbers are substantially higher than what the FMA charger >> reports the relationship of the IR numbers between the cells is >> proportionately the same. The IRM shows IR ohms about 7-8 times >> that of the FMA CellPro 10S. Which one is right? I dunno, but >> when I asked why they were so different, I got a very long >> explanation that I did not understand. All I know is the ratios >> seem to stay the same between them on the same batteries. >> >> It is well made tho I don't care for the small plugs for balance >> taps, that is kinda clumsy, but it works as advertised. >> >> Don >> >> In a message dated 3/27/2009 11:55:58 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, >> homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com writes: >> Did you guys see this yet? Could be helpful if your charger >> doesn't do it. >> >> http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=980290 >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10. >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > = > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a > recession. > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schroetere at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 30 03:28:19 2009 From: schroetere at bellsouth.net (Emory Schroeter) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 11:28:19 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] IR meter In-Reply-To: <3E4F7003-0C29-4F3E-8D62-63A3236C5D35@cox.net> References: <59050.60020.qm@web33007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <3E4F7003-0C29-4F3E-8D62-63A3236C5D35@cox.net> Message-ID: <49774D69-825C-47DE-B1B7-AA94528BC71B@bellsouth.net> OK Ron, I didn't "butcher it", I merely attached the wires to the wrong locations. Could we maybe just say that I tried to redesign it and that didn't quite work? :-) Emory On Mar 30, 2009, at 7:07 AM, Ron Van Putte wrote: > About two years ago I reported on the Lipo Doc, which a friend of > mine had designed, to measure cell internal resistance. It uses two > volt meters (you can use one, but two is easier). I built one for > myself and sent the plans/schematic to several people. A couple of > my club members built them and I rewired up one that Emory Schroeter > had butchered. I think Earl Haury made one as well. > > It is very inexpensive and all parts can be purchased at Radio > Shack. The problem is that you have to make it yourself and in this > ARF-only society, only the avid individual will tackle the job. I > will send the information to anyone who's interested, but be > forewarned that it takes about two hours to completely fabricate. > > Ron Van Putte > > On Mar 30, 2009, at 1:53 AM, krishlan fitzsimmons wrote: > >> Interesting. Well, maybe someone will come up with a good one at >> some point for those that don't use a Cellpro. I can't say my >> Cellpro is accurate, just that it works and gives me something to >> base my batteries off of. >> >> Jim, >> >> Any idea why 2 and 3 cell packs have such a high resistance? Even >> new mine are over 20. Hard to tell when they are bad. >> >> Something interesting is that on my AFPD sim, I was just flying the >> Spark. I haven't flown it much as there are a few things I don't >> care for compared to others that I have on there. One was that it >> felt underpowered. An easy change normally, just never did it. But >> instead of altering the motor, I went and looked into the >> batteries. The resistance was set at 13.0. I changed it to 2.0 and >> now the plane it silly fast. Not sure that means anything, just >> found it interesting. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> >> >> --- On Sun, 3/29/09, AtwoodDon at aol.com wrote: >> >> From: AtwoodDon at aol.com >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] IR meter >> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> Date: Sunday, March 29, 2009, 9:27 PM >> >> I agree, since I have to charge anyway, I am going to believe the >> CellPro. I sold the IRM to someone that was unhappy they were sold >> out when he went to order...... >> >> D >> >> In a message dated 3/29/2009 8:31:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, joddino at socal.rr.com >> writes: >> Don, >> >> I would say the FMA is closer to the real value. I'll look at some >> inflight data but just as a test of reasonableness I looked at the >> data I sent you recently where I was pulling about 98 Amps at 39 >> volts. My pack has about 3 mOhms per cell according to the FMA >> times 10 cells is .03 Ohms for the pack. 98 x .03 = 2.94 volts If >> the resistance was 7 times higher the drop would be seven times >> higher or around 21 volts. Something is wrong with his algorithm. >> >> Jim >> On Mar 27, 2009, at 5:22 PM, atwooddon at aol.com wrote: >> >>> I have one, caught the discussion thread just as it started and >>> jumped on the initial orders. It works as expected. Although the >>> IR numbers are substantially higher than what the FMA charger >>> reports the relationship of the IR numbers between the cells is >>> proportionately the same. The IRM shows IR ohms about 7-8 times >>> that of the FMA CellPro 10S. Which one is right? I dunno, but >>> when I asked why they were so different, I got a very long >>> explanation that I did not understand. All I know is the ratios >>> seem to stay the same between them on the same batteries. >>> >>> It is well made tho I don't care for the small plugs for balance >>> taps, that is kinda clumsy, but it works as advertised. >>> >>> Don >>> >>> In a message dated 3/27/2009 11:55:58 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com >>> writes: >>> Did you guys see this yet? Could be helpful if your charger >>> doesn't do it. >>> >>> http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=980290 >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>> >>> Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> = >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a >> recession. >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlkonn at hotmail.com Mon Mar 30 03:41:27 2009 From: jlkonn at hotmail.com (John Konneker) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 11:41:27 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] IR meter In-Reply-To: <3E4F7003-0C29-4F3E-8D62-63A3236C5D35@cox.net> References: <59050.60020.qm@web33007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <3E4F7003-0C29-4F3E-8D62-63A3236C5D35@cox.net> Message-ID: Hey Ron, I'd like the information please. JLK From: vanputte at cox.net Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 07:07:55 -0400 To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] IR meter About two years ago I reported on the Lipo Doc, which a friend of mine had designed, to measure cell internal resistance. It uses two volt meters (you can use one, but two is easier). I built one for myself and sent the plans/schematic to several people. A couple of my club members built them and I rewired up one that Emory Schroeter had butchered. I think Earl Haury made one as well. It is very inexpensive and all parts can be purchased at Radio Shack. The problem is that you have to make it yourself and in this ARF-only society, only the avid individual will tackle the job. I will send the information to anyone who's interested, but be forewarned that it takes about two hours to completely fabricate. Ron Van Putte On Mar 30, 2009, at 1:53 AM, krishlan fitzsimmons wrote: Interesting. Well, maybe someone will come up with a good one at some point for those that don't use a Cellpro. I can't say my Cellpro is accurate, just that it works and gives me something to base my batteries off of. Jim, Any idea why 2 and 3 cell packs have such a high resistance? Even new mine are over 20. Hard to tell when they are bad. Something interesting is that on my AFPD sim, I was just flying the Spark. I haven't flown it much as there are a few things I don't care for compared to others that I have on there. One was that it felt underpowered. An easy change normally, just never did it. But instead of altering the motor, I went and looked into the batteries. The resistance was set at 13.0. I changed it to 2.0 and now the plane it silly fast. Not sure that means anything, just found it interesting. Thanks, Chris --- On Sun, 3/29/09, AtwoodDon at aol.com wrote: From: AtwoodDon at aol.com Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] IR meter To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Sunday, March 29, 2009, 9:27 PM I agree, since I have to charge anyway, I am going to believe the CellPro. I sold the IRM to someone that was unhappy they were sold out when he went to order...... D In a message dated 3/29/2009 8:31:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, joddino at socal.rr.com writes: Don, I would say the FMA is closer to the real value. I'll look at some inflight data but just as a test of reasonableness I looked at the data I sent you recently where I was pulling about 98 Amps at 39 volts. My pack has about 3 mOhms per cell according to the FMA times 10 cells is .03 Ohms for the pack. 98 x .03 = 2.94 volts If the resistance was 7 times higher the drop would be seven times higher or around 21 volts. Something is wrong with his algorithm. Jim On Mar 27, 2009, at 5:22 PM, atwooddon at aol.com wrote: I have one, caught the discussion thread just as it started and jumped on the initial orders. It works as expected. Although the IR numbers are substantially higher than what the FMA charger reports the relationship of the IR numbers between the cells is proportionately the same. The IRM shows IR ohms about 7-8 times that of the FMA CellPro 10S. Which one is right? I dunno, but when I asked why they were so different, I got a very long explanation that I did not understand. All I know is the ratios seem to stay the same between them on the same batteries. It is well made tho I don't care for the small plugs for balance taps, that is kinda clumsy, but it works as advertised. Don In a message dated 3/27/2009 11:55:58 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com writes: Did you guys see this yet? Could be helpful if your charger doesn't do it. http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=980290 Chris _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10._______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion = _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpavlick at idseng.com Mon Mar 30 04:16:38 2009 From: jpavlick at idseng.com (John Pavlick) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 12:16:38 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] IR meter In-Reply-To: <49774D69-825C-47DE-B1B7-AA94528BC71B@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <270148.6381.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In the words of Thomas Edison: "I have not failed,?I have simply found 1000 ways that will not work!". ? John Pavlick --- On Mon, 3/30/09, Emory Schroeter wrote: From: Emory Schroeter Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] IR meter To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Monday, March 30, 2009, 11:28 AM OK Ron, I didn't "butcher it", I merely attached the wires to the wrong locations. Could we maybe just say that I tried to?redesign?it and that didn't quite work? :-) Emory On Mar 30, 2009, at 7:07 AM, Ron Van Putte wrote: About two years ago I reported on the Lipo Doc, which a friend of mine had designed, to measure cell internal resistance. ?It uses two volt meters (you can use one, but two is easier). ?I built one for myself and sent the plans/schematic to several people. ?A couple of my club members built them and I rewired up one that Emory Schroeter had butchered. ?I think Earl Haury made one as well. ? It is very inexpensive and all parts can be purchased at Radio Shack. ?The problem is that you have to make it yourself and in this ARF-only society, only the avid individual will tackle the job. ?I will send the information to anyone who's interested, but be forewarned that it takes about two hours to completely fabricate. Ron Van Putte On Mar 30, 2009, at 1:53 AM, krishlan fitzsimmons wrote: Interesting. Well, maybe someone will come up with a good one at some point for those that don't use a Cellpro. I can't say my Cellpro is accurate, just that it works and gives me something to base my batteries off of. Jim, Any idea why 2 and 3 cell packs have such a high resistance? Even new mine are over 20. Hard to tell when they are bad. Something interesting is that on my AFPD sim, I was just flying the Spark. I haven't flown it much as there are a few things I don't care for compared to others that I have on there. One was that it felt underpowered. An easy change normally, just never did it. But instead of altering the motor, I went and looked into the batteries. The resistance was set at 13.0. I changed it to 2.0 and now the plane it silly fast. Not sure that means anything, just found it interesting. Thanks, Chris ? ? ? --- On Sun, 3/29/09, AtwoodDon at aol.com wrote: From: AtwoodDon at aol.com Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] IR meter To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Sunday, March 29, 2009, 9:27 PM I agree, since I have to charge anyway, I am going to believe the CellPro.? I sold the IRM to someone that was unhappy they were sold out when he went to order......? ? D ? In a message dated 3/29/2009 8:31:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, joddino at socal.rr.com writes: Don, I would say the FMA is closer to the real value. ?I'll look at some inflight data but just as a test of reasonableness I looked at the data I sent you recently where I was pulling about 98 Amps at 39 volts. ?My pack has about 3 mOhms per cell according to the FMA times 10 cells is .03 Ohms for the pack. ?98 x .03 = 2.94 volts ?If the resistance was 7 times higher the drop would be seven times higher or around 21 volts. ?Something is wrong with his algorithm. Jim On Mar 27, 2009, at 5:22 PM, atwooddon at aol.com wrote: I have one, caught the discussion thread just as it started and jumped on the initial orders.? It works as expected. Although the IR numbers are substantially higher than what the FMA charger reports the relationship of the IR numbers between the cells is? proportionately the same.? The IRM shows IR ohms about 7-8 times that of the FMA CellPro 10S.? Which one is right?? I dunno, but when I asked why they were so different, I got a very long explanation that I did not understand.? All I know is the ratios seem to stay the same between them on the same batteries.? ? It is well made tho I don't care for the small plugs for balance taps, that is kinda clumsy, but it works as advertised. ? Don ? In a message dated 3/27/2009 11:55:58 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com writes: Did you guys see this yet? Could be helpful if your charger doesn't do it. http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=980290 Chris ? ? ? _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10._______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion = _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From perkinsrx at centurytel.net Mon Mar 30 07:19:58 2009 From: perkinsrx at centurytel.net (W. Eddie Batchelor) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:19:58 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] IR meter In-Reply-To: <3E4F7003-0C29-4F3E-8D62-63A3236C5D35@cox.net> Message-ID: <200903301519.n2UFJqcZ014817@mail929c35.nsolutionszone.com> Ron I'd like the info please. Email to : eddie at perkinspharmacy.com Eddie Batchelor _____ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ron Van Putte Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 6:08 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] IR meter About two years ago I reported on the Lipo Doc, which a friend of mine had designed, to measure cell internal resistance. It uses two volt meters (you can use one, but two is easier). I built one for myself and sent the plans/schematic to several people. A couple of my club members built them and I rewired up one that Emory Schroeter had butchered. I think Earl Haury made one as well. It is very inexpensive and all parts can be purchased at Radio Shack. The problem is that you have to make it yourself and in this ARF-only society, only the avid individual will tackle the job. I will send the information to anyone who's interested, but be forewarned that it takes about two hours to completely fabricate. Ron Van Putte _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 30 10:37:01 2009 From: homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com (krishlan fitzsimmons) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 18:37:01 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol Message-ID: <96592.15552.qm@web33003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Not exactly planes, but for those of us that like E stuff, here is some interesting video's. Watch 2 and 3's video's. http://gas2.org/2009/03/29/worlds-top-10-fastest-electric-cars/ Next time I'm at the track and there's an E car there, I think I'll put my money on it. Technology is amazing! Chris ? ? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tony at radiosouthrc.com Mon Mar 30 10:52:01 2009 From: tony at radiosouthrc.com (Tony) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 18:52:01 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Pro Driver's w/reset and delay Message-ID: <8E84C06BF6B94EABA5670220D5135332@Tony> Just wanted to let everyone know that we have made a change in our Pro Drivers w/Delay. We have added the reset button to them as a standard feature. The unit has a 5 second delay after you press the "start" button. The current then ramps up to the plug, which is easier on the glow plug and will increase life of the plug. The unit then runs for 30 seconds and then shuts off. At any point in this cycle, you can disrupt it by pressing the "reset" button. This cancels the operation and brings the unit back to a ready state to begin the cycle new. This will allow for an engine that does not start right away. You can press the "reset" button to terminate the glow to the plug and then correct any issue with the engine. Then you can begin the process over again for another try for start. These changes took a few more days to implement, and our units will be shipping out right after the Toledo Show this weekend. We will have some units at the show as well. Thanks for everyone's suggestions on how to improve our product! We believe that it will be worth the wait. Tony Stillman, President Radio South, Inc. 139 Altama Connector, Box 322 Brunswick, GA 31525 1-800-962-7802 www.radiosouthrc.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atwoodm at paragon-inc.com Mon Mar 30 10:55:07 2009 From: atwoodm at paragon-inc.com (Atwood, Mark) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 18:55:07 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Pro Driver's w/reset and delay In-Reply-To: <8E84C06BF6B94EABA5670220D5135332@Tony> References: <8E84C06BF6B94EABA5670220D5135332@Tony> Message-ID: <99B8EFCA36A5724F87FF3C71B431D87204503DBC74@PEVM01.paragon-inc.com> Awesome! Look forward to seeing you at the show. Is it still possible to get an older (either orange or yellow) pro Driver upgraded? If so, how much? -Mark From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Tony Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 2:52 PM To: 'General pattern discussion' Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Pro Driver's w/reset and delay Just wanted to let everyone know that we have made a change in our Pro Drivers w/Delay. We have added the reset button to them as a standard feature. The unit has a 5 second delay after you press the "start" button. The current then ramps up to the plug, which is easier on the glow plug and will increase life of the plug. The unit then runs for 30 seconds and then shuts off. At any point in this cycle, you can disrupt it by pressing the "reset" button. This cancels the operation and brings the unit back to a ready state to begin the cycle new. This will allow for an engine that does not start right away. You can press the "reset" button to terminate the glow to the plug and then correct any issue with the engine. Then you can begin the process over again for another try for start. These changes took a few more days to implement, and our units will be shipping out right after the Toledo Show this weekend. We will have some units at the show as well. Thanks for everyone's suggestions on how to improve our product! We believe that it will be worth the wait. Tony Stillman, President Radio South, Inc. 139 Altama Connector, Box 322 Brunswick, GA 31525 1-800-962-7802 www.radiosouthrc.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tony at radiosouthrc.com Mon Mar 30 10:59:48 2009 From: tony at radiosouthrc.com (Tony) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 18:59:48 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Pro Driver's w/reset and delay In-Reply-To: <99B8EFCA36A5724F87FF3C71B431D87204503DBC74@PEVM01.paragon-inc.com> References: <8E84C06BF6B94EABA5670220D5135332@Tony> <99B8EFCA36A5724F87FF3C71B431D87204503DBC74@PEVM01.paragon-inc.com> Message-ID: Mark: Yes. It will be $18 for the upgrade for either the Mark II (Orange box w/ push button) or Mark III (Yellow box). The units will need to be sent to our manufacturer in Ft. Walton Beach for this work. The address is: Emerald Coast Circuits 107 South Ave. Ft. Walton Beach, FL 32547 Tony Stillman, President Radio South, Inc. 139 Altama Connector, Box 322 Brunswick, GA 31525 1-800-962-7802 www.radiosouthrc.com _____ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 2:55 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Pro Driver's w/reset and delay Awesome! Look forward to seeing you at the show. Is it still possible to get an older (either orange or yellow) pro Driver upgraded? If so, how much? -Mark From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Tony Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 2:52 PM To: 'General pattern discussion' Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Pro Driver's w/reset and delay Just wanted to let everyone know that we have made a change in our Pro Drivers w/Delay. We have added the reset button to them as a standard feature. The unit has a 5 second delay after you press the "start" button. The current then ramps up to the plug, which is easier on the glow plug and will increase life of the plug. The unit then runs for 30 seconds and then shuts off. At any point in this cycle, you can disrupt it by pressing the "reset" button. This cancels the operation and brings the unit back to a ready state to begin the cycle new. This will allow for an engine that does not start right away. You can press the "reset" button to terminate the glow to the plug and then correct any issue with the engine. Then you can begin the process over again for another try for start. These changes took a few more days to implement, and our units will be shipping out right after the Toledo Show this weekend. We will have some units at the show as well. Thanks for everyone's suggestions on how to improve our product! We believe that it will be worth the wait. Tony Stillman, President Radio South, Inc. 139 Altama Connector, Box 322 Brunswick, GA 31525 1-800-962-7802 www.radiosouthrc.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rcmaster199 at aol.com Mon Mar 30 11:13:39 2009 From: rcmaster199 at aol.com (rcmaster199 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 19:13:39 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol In-Reply-To: <96592.15552.qm@web33003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <96592.15552.qm@web33003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CB7F829AED6629-780-13BF@webmail-dd09.sysops.aol.com> Indeed!!! I like what Tesla Motors have done with their sports coupe. With minimal weight in the 300 hp motor (I've read the motor weighs 75#s...wow!!)and no real transmission, the car can be made light. I've also read that batteries are not complete losses when they lose cells. Only the bad cells get replaced which keeps repair cost down. I like that aspect of these cars a lot. And the 200-250 mile range on a charge also works just great with simple overnight recharge cycles. The price tag is the only thing that doesn't compute. Hopefully that will come down as more people buy into this "new" technology. IF I won the lottery I would buy one or three. These are not your every day golf cart types, by any stretch. Every one should know that Nikola Tesla invented the Tesla coil (duh!! make spark ignition practical), but did you know he invented the electric motor? (Among many other things that have revolutionized every day life). The more I read about this man the more in awe I am MattK -----Original Message----- From: krishlan fitzsimmons To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Sent: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 2:36 pm Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol Not exactly planes, but for those of us that like E stuff, here is some interesting video's. Watch 2 and 3's video's. http://gas2.org/2009/03/29/worlds-top-10-fastest-electric-cars/ Next time I'm at the track and there 's an E car there, I think I'll put my money on it. Technology is amazing! Chris ? ? ? _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From jim.woodward at baesystems.com Mon Mar 30 11:18:51 2009 From: jim.woodward at baesystems.com (Woodward, Jim (US SSA)) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 19:18:51 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol In-Reply-To: <8CB7F829AED6629-780-13BF@webmail-dd09.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <7nafpc$i6enb@dmzms99902.na.baesystems.com> ... he also invented wireless "power" transmission, as well as the AC current, associated thinner wires, and patented a light bulb that took a lot of business from Edison's company. Edison also jipped Tesla out of a $50k bonus when Tesla first arrived in the USA working for Edison, and thus began the two's rivalry. Some specials of his life and inventions have been on the History Channel lately. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of rcmaster199 at aol.com Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 3:12 PM To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol Indeed!!! I like what Tesla Motors have done with their sports coupe. With minimal weight in the 300 hp motor (I've read the motor weighs 75#s...wow!!)and no real transmission, the car can be made light. I've also read that batteries are not complete losses when they lose cells. Only the bad cells get replaced which keeps repair cost down. I like that aspect of these cars a lot. And the 200-250 mile range on a charge also works just great with simple overnight recharge cycles. The price tag is the only thing that doesn't compute. Hopefully that will come down as more people buy into this "new" technology. IF I won the lottery I would buy one or three. These are not your every day golf cart types, by any stretch. Every one should know that Nikola Tesla invented the Tesla coil (duh!! make spark ignition practical), but did you know he invented the electric motor? (Among many other things that have revolutionized every day life). The more I read about this man the more in awe I am MattK -----Original Message----- From: krishlan fitzsimmons To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Sent: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 2:36 pm Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol Not exactly planes, but for those of us that like E stuff, here is some interesting video's. Watch 2 and 3's video's. http://gas2.org/2009/03/29/worlds-top-10-fastest-electric-cars/ Next time I'm at the track and there 's an E car there, I think I'll put my money on it. Technology is amazing! Chris ? ? ? _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From khoard at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 11:25:42 2009 From: khoard at gmail.com (Keith Hoard) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 19:25:42 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol In-Reply-To: <8CB7F829AED6629-780-13BF@webmail-dd09.sysops.aol.com> References: <96592.15552.qm@web33003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8CB7F829AED6629-780-13BF@webmail-dd09.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <6792ef120903301225v75cffc9auf6b28b8881a32e45@mail.gmail.com> I was talking to a fireman a few days ago. . . . they are very nervous about electric / hybrid cars from a safety point of view. Would you want to be cutting into a car with the Jaws of Life knowing that somewhere in the twisted wreckage is a 400S-20P Thunder Power LiPo?? Even if the batts are A123's, you still have some very large current carrying wires flopping around somewhere. But hey, we're in a planetary emergency, right?? On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 2:12 PM, wrote: > Indeed!!! I like what Tesla Motors have done with their sports coupe. With > minimal weight in the 300 hp motor (I've read the motor weighs > 75#s...wow!!)and no real transmission, the car can be made light. I've also > read that batteries are not complete losses when they lose cells. Only the > bad cells get replaced which keeps repair cost down. I like that aspect of > these cars a lot. And the 200-250 mile range on a charge also works just > great with simple overnight recharge cycles. > > The price tag is the only thing that doesn't compute. Hopefully that will > come down as more people buy into this "new" technology. IF I won the > lottery I would buy one or three. > > These are not your every day golf cart types, by any stretch. > > Every one should know that Nikola Tesla invented the Tesla coil (duh!! make > spark ignition practical), but did you know he invented the electric motor? > (Among many other things that have revolutionized every day life). The more > I read about this man the more in awe I am > > MattK > > -----Original Message----- > From: krishlan fitzsimmons > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Sent: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 2:36 pm > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol > > Not exactly planes, but for those of us that like E stuff, here is some > interesting video's. > Watch 2 and 3's video's. > http://gas2.org/2009/03/29/worlds-top-10-fastest-electric-cars/ > > Next time I'm at the track and there > 's an E car there, I think I'll put my money on it. > Technology is amazing! > > > > Chris > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lightfoot at sc.rr.com Mon Mar 30 11:28:15 2009 From: lightfoot at sc.rr.com (Jay Marshall) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 19:28:15 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol In-Reply-To: <6792ef120903301225v75cffc9auf6b28b8881a32e45@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: What about fuel lines? Or a hydrogen tank? Jay Marshall -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Keith Hoard Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 3:26 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol I was talking to a fireman a few days ago. . . . they are very nervous about electric / hybrid cars from a safety point of view. Would you want to be cutting into a car with the Jaws of Life knowing that somewhere in the twisted wreckage is a 400S-20P Thunder Power LiPo?? Even if the batts are A123's, you still have some very large current carrying wires flopping around somewhere. But hey, we're in a planetary emergency, right?? On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 2:12 PM, wrote: Indeed!!! I like what Tesla Motors have done with their sports coupe. With minimal weight in the 300 hp motor (I've read the motor weighs 75#s...wow!!)and no real transmission, the car can be made light. I've also read that batteries are not complete losses when they lose cells. Only the bad cells get replaced which keeps repair cost down. I like that aspect of these cars a lot. And the 200-250 mile range on a charge also works just great with simple overnight recharge cycles. The price tag is the only thing that doesn't compute. Hopefully that will come down as more people buy into this "new" technology. IF I won the lottery I would buy one or three. These are not your every day golf cart types, by any stretch. Every one should know that Nikola Tesla invented the Tesla coil (duh!! make spark ignition practical), but did you know he invented the electric motor? (Among many other things that have revolutionized every day life). The more I read about this man the more in awe I am MattK -----Original Message----- From: krishlan fitzsimmons To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Sent: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 2:36 pm Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol Not exactly planes, but for those of us that like E stuff, here is some interesting video's. Watch 2 and 3's video's. http://gas2.org/2009/03/29/worlds-top-10-fastest-electric-cars/ Next time I'm at the track and there 's an E car there, I think I'll put my money on it. Technology is amazing! Chris _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tony at radiosouthrc.com Mon Mar 30 11:30:55 2009 From: tony at radiosouthrc.com (Tony) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 19:30:55 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Pro Driver's w/reset and delay In-Reply-To: <002a01c9b16a$cbb9c910$4658550a@usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> References: <8E84C06BF6B94EABA5670220D5135332@Tony> <99B8EFCA36A5724F87FF3C71B431D87204503DBC74@PEVM01.paragon-inc.com> <002a01c9b16a$cbb9c910$4658550a@usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Message-ID: The new units will be $10 more than the versions w/o the delay. Our show prices are about 10% below our online prices, so you can save a few $$ at the show if you want to pick up a new one. Here are the show prices: Pro Driver MKII w/delay $67.00 ($74.99 normal price) Pro Driver MKIII w/delay $87.00 ($96.99 normal price) Tony Stillman, President Radio South, Inc. 139 Altama Connector, Box 322 Brunswick, GA 31525 1-800-962-7802 www.radiosouthrc.com _____ From: Pete Cosky [mailto:pcosky at comcast.net] Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 3:08 PM To: Mark Atwood; Tony Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Pro Driver's w/reset and delay I'd like to know too. It seems a shame not to upgrade mine but then again a new one would be nice. I'll be at the show Saturday afternoon until Sunday afternoon so tell me how much the new ones are so I can decide which way to go. Also, will the new ones use a lithium battery or nixx? ----- Original Message ----- From: Atwood, Mark To: General pattern discussion Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 2:55 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Pro Driver's w/reset and delay Awesome! Look forward to seeing you at the show. Is it still possible to get an older (either orange or yellow) pro Driver upgraded? If so, how much? -Mark From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Tony Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 2:52 PM To: 'General pattern discussion' Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Pro Driver's w/reset and delay Just wanted to let everyone know that we have made a change in our Pro Drivers w/Delay. We have added the reset button to them as a standard feature. The unit has a 5 second delay after you press the "start" button. The current then ramps up to the plug, which is easier on the glow plug and will increase life of the plug. The unit then runs for 30 seconds and then shuts off. At any point in this cycle, you can disrupt it by pressing the "reset" button. This cancels the operation and brings the unit back to a ready state to begin the cycle new. This will allow for an engine that does not start right away. You can press the "reset" button to terminate the glow to the plug and then correct any issue with the engine. Then you can begin the process over again for another try for start. These changes took a few more days to implement, and our units will be shipping out right after the Toledo Show this weekend. We will have some units at the show as well. Thanks for everyone's suggestions on how to improve our product! We believe that it will be worth the wait. Tony Stillman, President Radio South, Inc. 139 Altama Connector, Box 322 Brunswick, GA 31525 1-800-962-7802 www.radiosouthrc.com _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From khoard at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 11:34:21 2009 From: khoard at gmail.com (Keith Hoard) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 19:34:21 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol In-Reply-To: References: <6792ef120903301225v75cffc9auf6b28b8881a32e45@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6792ef120903301234q372ae1b3vde09d2f4ad8e6c4e@mail.gmail.com> Not sure either one of those will electrocute ya. . . . 2009/3/30 Jay Marshall > What about fuel lines? Or a hydrogen tank? > > > > *Jay **Marshall* > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto: > nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] *On Behalf Of *Keith Hoard > *Sent:* Monday, March 30, 2009 3:26 PM > *To:* General pattern discussion > *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol > > > > I was talking to a fireman a few days ago. . . . they are very nervous > about electric / hybrid cars from a safety point of view. > > Would you want to be cutting into a car with the Jaws of Life knowing that > somewhere in the twisted wreckage is a 400S-20P Thunder Power LiPo?? Even > if the batts are A123's, you still have some very large current carrying > wires flopping around somewhere. > > But hey, we're in a planetary emergency, right?? > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 2:12 PM, wrote: > > Indeed!!! I like what Tesla Motors have done with their sports coupe. With > minimal weight in the 300 hp motor (I've read the motor weighs > 75#s...wow!!)and no real transmission, the car can be made light. I've also > read that batteries are not complete losses when they lose cells. Only the > bad cells get replaced which keeps repair cost down. I like that aspect of > these cars a lot. And the 200-250 mile range on a charge also works just > great with simple overnight recharge cycles. > > The price tag is the only thing that doesn't compute. Hopefully that will > come down as more people buy into this "new" technology. IF I won the > lottery I would buy one or three. > > These are not your every day golf cart types, by any stretch. > > Every one should know that Nikola Tesla invented the Tesla coil (duh!! make > spark ignition practical), but did you know he invented the electric motor? > (Among many other things that have revolutionized every day life). The more > I read about this man the more in awe I am > > MattK > > -----Original Message----- > From: krishlan fitzsimmons > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Sent: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 2:36 pm > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol > > Not exactly planes, but for those of us that like E stuff, here is some > interesting video's. > Watch 2 and 3's video's. > http://gas2.org/2009/03/29/worlds-top-10-fastest-electric-cars/ > > Next time I'm at the track and there > 's an E car there, I think I'll put my money on it. > Technology is amazing! > > > > Chris > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > > -- > > Keith Hoard > Collierville, TN > khoard at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffghughes at comcast.net Mon Mar 30 11:36:43 2009 From: jeffghughes at comcast.net (jeffghughes at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 19:36:43 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol In-Reply-To: <8CB7F829AED6629-780-13BF@webmail-dd09.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <246628490.1639431238441801380.JavaMail.root@sz0016a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Just wait untill these cars have to pass crash and safety tests. I'll bet they will be just as heavy as a gasoline car. Probably heavier. ----- Original Message ----- From: rcmaster199 at aol.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 3:12:29 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol Indeed!!! I like what Tesla Motors have done with their sports coupe. With minimal weight in the 300 hp motor (I've read the motor weighs 75#s...wow!!)and no real transmission, the car can be made light. I've also read that batteries are not complete losses when they lose cells. Only the bad cells get replaced which keeps repair cost down. I like that aspect of these cars a lot. And the 200-250 mile range on a charge also works just great with simple overnight recharge cycles. The price tag is the only thing that doesn't compute. Hopefully that will come down as more people buy into this "new" technology. IF I won the lottery I would buy one or three. These are not your every day golf cart types, by any stretch. Every one should know that Nikola Tesla invented the Tesla coil (duh!! make spark ignition practical), but did you know he invented the electric motor? (Among many other things that have revolutionized every day life). The more I read about this man the more in awe I am MattK -----Original Message----- From: krishlan fitzsimmons To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Sent: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 2:36 pm Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol Not exactly planes, but for those of us that like E stuff, here is some interesting video's. Watch 2 and 3's video's. http://gas2.org/2009/03/29/worlds-top-10-fastest-electric-cars/ Next time I'm at the track and there 's an E car there, I think I'll put my money on it. Technology is amazing! Chris ? ? ?? ?? ?? ? ?_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gfowler at raytheon.com Mon Mar 30 11:39:33 2009 From: gfowler at raytheon.com (Gray E Fowler) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 19:39:33 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol In-Reply-To: <8CB7F829AED6629-780-13BF@webmail-dd09.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Tesla invented Radio....like what we fly our toys with.. Tesla-The Band still rockin after 20+ years...saw them last month Gray Fowler Senior Principal Chemical Engineer Radomes and Specialty Apertures Technical Staff Composites Engineering Raytheon rcmaster199 at aol.com Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 03/30/2009 02:14 PM Please respond to General pattern discussion To nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org cc Subject Re: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol Indeed!!! I like what Tesla Motors have done with their sports coupe. With minimal weight in the 300 hp motor (I've read the motor weighs 75#s...wow!!)and no real transmission, the car can be made light. I've also read that batteries are not complete losses when they lose cells. Only the bad cells get replaced which keeps repair cost down. I like that aspect of these cars a lot. And the 200-250 mile range on a charge also works just great with simple overnight recharge cycles. The price tag is the only thing that doesn't compute. Hopefully that will come down as more people buy into this "new" technology. IF I won the lottery I would buy one or three. These are not your every day golf cart types, by any stretch. Every one should know that Nikola Tesla invented the Tesla coil (duh!! make spark ignition practical), but did you know he invented the electric motor? (Among many other things that have revolutionized every day life). The more I read about this man the more in awe I am MattK -----Original Message----- From: krishlan fitzsimmons To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Sent: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 2:36 pm Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol Not exactly planes, but for those of us that like E stuff, here is some interesting video's. Watch 2 and 3's video's. http://gas2.org/2009/03/29/worlds-top-10-fastest-electric-cars/ Next time I'm at the track and there 's an E car there, I think I'll put my money on it. Technology is amazing! Chris _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpavlick at idseng.com Mon Mar 30 11:44:20 2009 From: jpavlick at idseng.com (John Pavlick) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 19:44:20 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <611785.36370.qm@web80508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "The Great Radio Controversy" :) ? And don't forget the Tesla Coil - that's one cool piece of creativity. ? John Pavlick ? --- On Mon, 3/30/09, Gray E Fowler wrote: From: Gray E Fowler Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Monday, March 30, 2009, 7:39 PM Tesla invented Radio....like what we fly our toys with.. Tesla-The Band still rockin after 20+ years...saw them last month Gray Fowler Senior Principal Chemical Engineer Radomes and Specialty Apertures Technical Staff Composites Engineering Raytheon rcmaster199 at aol.com Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 03/30/2009 02:14 PM Please respond to General pattern discussion To nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org cc Subject Re: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol Indeed!!! I like what Tesla Motors have done with their sports coupe. With minimal weight in the 300 hp motor (I've read the motor weighs 75#s...wow!!)and no real transmission, the car can be made light. I've also read that batteries are not complete losses when they lose cells. Only the bad cells get replaced which keeps repair cost down. I like that aspect of these cars a lot. And the 200-250 mile range on a charge also works just great with simple overnight recharge cycles. The price tag is the only thing that doesn't compute. Hopefully that will come down as more people buy into this "new" technology. IF I won the lottery I would buy one or three. These are not your every day golf cart types, by any stretch. Every one should know that Nikola Tesla invented the Tesla coil (duh!! make spark ignition practical), but did you know he invented the electric motor? (Among many other things that have revolutionized every day life). The more I read about this man the more in awe I am MattK -----Original Message----- From: krishlan fitzsimmons To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Sent: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 2:36 pm Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol Not exactly planes, but for those of us that like E stuff, here is some interesting video's. Watch 2 and 3's video's. http://gas2.org/2009/03/29/worlds-top-10-fastest-electric-cars/ Next time I'm at the track and there 's an E car there, I think I'll put my money on it. Technology is amazing! Chris ? ? ?? ?? ? ? ?_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anthonyr105 at hotmail.com Mon Mar 30 11:44:27 2009 From: anthonyr105 at hotmail.com (Anthony Romano) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 19:44:27 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Sportsman powerpoint Message-ID: Is this on the website and I am just not finding it? We had some nice diagrams at the WRAM show and I wanted to make some copies. Like to have a few in the car in case one of the locals gets interested. Anthony _________________________________________________________________ Internet Explorer 8 ? Get your Hotmail Accelerated. Download free! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/141323790/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From smaragdz at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 30 11:52:31 2009 From: smaragdz at bellsouth.net (Ryan Smith) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 19:52:31 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol In-Reply-To: <6792ef120903301225v75cffc9auf6b28b8881a32e45@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49d122f7.0936640a.2d36.ffffe0b4@mx.google.com> Good point. That's something I haven't thought of until you brought it up. It's going to be fun disposing of all of those batteries as well. _____ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Keith Hoard Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 3:26 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol I was talking to a fireman a few days ago. . . . they are very nervous about electric / hybrid cars from a safety point of view. Would you want to be cutting into a car with the Jaws of Life knowing that somewhere in the twisted wreckage is a 400S-20P Thunder Power LiPo?? Even if the batts are A123's, you still have some very large current carrying wires flopping around somewhere. But hey, we're in a planetary emergency, right?? On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 2:12 PM, wrote: Indeed!!! I like what Tesla Motors have done with their sports coupe. With minimal weight in the 300 hp motor (I've read the motor weighs 75#s...wow!!)and no real transmission, the car can be made light. I've also read that batteries are not complete losses when they lose cells. Only the bad cells get replaced which keeps repair cost down. I like that aspect of these cars a lot. And the 200-250 mile range on a charge also works just great with simple overnight recharge cycles. The price tag is the only thing that doesn't compute. Hopefully that will come down as more people buy into this "new" technology. IF I won the lottery I would buy one or three. These are not your every day golf cart types, by any stretch. Every one should know that Nikola Tesla invented the Tesla coil (duh!! make spark ignition practical), but did you know he invented the electric motor? (Among many other things that have revolutionized every day life). The more I read about this man the more in awe I am MattK -----Original Message----- From: krishlan fitzsimmons To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Sent: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 2:36 pm Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol Not exactly planes, but for those of us that like E stuff, here is some interesting video's. Watch 2 and 3's video's. http://gas2.org/2009/03/29/worlds-top-10-fastest-electric-cars/ Next time I'm at the track and there 's an E car there, I think I'll put my money on it. Technology is amazing! Chris _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlachow at hotmail.com Mon Mar 30 11:53:08 2009 From: jlachow at hotmail.com (Joe Lachowski) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 19:53:08 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Sportsman powerpoint In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://nsrca.us/judging-sequences/schedules.html From: anthonyr105 at hotmail.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:44:23 -0400 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Sportsman powerpoint Is this on the website and I am just not finding it? We had some nice diagrams at the WRAM show and I wanted to make some copies. Like to have a few in the car in case one of the locals gets interested. Anthony Internet Explorer 8 ? Get your Hotmail Accelerated. Download free! _________________________________________________________________ Internet Explorer 8 ? Get your Hotmail Accelerated. Download free! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/141323790/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trexlesh at msn.com Mon Mar 30 12:08:43 2009 From: trexlesh at msn.com (Rex) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 20:08:43 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol In-Reply-To: <6792ef120903301225v75cffc9auf6b28b8881a32e45@mail.gmail.com> References: <96592.15552.qm@web33003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8CB7F829AED6629-780-13BF@webmail-dd09.sysops.aol.com> <6792ef120903301225v75cffc9auf6b28b8881a32e45@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: They should be nervous.... One fireman I talked to, said that a couple have already died... they touched the wrecked vehicle and got shocked! There has already been a bunch of required design changes to allow for cutting circuits from outside the vehicle in the event of a crash. Use your imagination as to how many points of access might be needed! If you come upon an electric vehicle crash, and you hear the electric rotor turning, Don't Touch! You could very well become the ground wire! Rex Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:25:40 -0500 From: khoard at gmail.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol I was talking to a fireman a few days ago. . . . they are very nervous about electric / hybrid cars from a safety point of view. Would you want to be cutting into a car with the Jaws of Life knowing that somewhere in the twisted wreckage is a 400S-20P Thunder Power LiPo?? Even if the batts are A123's, you still have some very large current carrying wires flopping around somewhere. But hey, we're in a planetary emergency, right?? On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 2:12 PM, wrote: Indeed!!! I like what Tesla Motors have done with their sports coupe. With minimal weight in the 300 hp motor (I've read the motor weighs 75#s...wow!!)and no real transmission, the car can be made light. I've also read that batteries are not complete losses when they lose cells. Only the bad cells get replaced which keeps repair cost down. I like that aspect of these cars a lot. And the 200-250 mile range on a charge also works just great with simple overnight recharge cycles. The price tag is the only thing that doesn't compute. Hopefully that will come down as more people buy into this "new" technology. IF I won the lottery I would buy one or three. These are not your every day golf cart types, by any stretch. Every one should know that Nikola Tesla invented the Tesla coil (duh!! make spark ignition practical), but did you know he invented the electric motor? (Among many other things that have revolutionized every day life). The more I read about this man the more in awe I am MattK -----Original Message----- From: krishlan fitzsimmons To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Sent: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 2:36 pm Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol Not exactly planes, but for those of us that like E stuff, here is some interesting video's. Watch 2 and 3's video's. http://gas2.org/2009/03/29/worlds-top-10-fastest-electric-cars/ Next time I'm at the track and there 's an E car there, I think I'll put my money on it. Technology is amazing! Chris _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From khoard at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 12:39:12 2009 From: khoard at gmail.com (Keith Hoard) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 20:39:12 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol In-Reply-To: References: <96592.15552.qm@web33003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8CB7F829AED6629-780-13BF@webmail-dd09.sysops.aol.com> <6792ef120903301225v75cffc9auf6b28b8881a32e45@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6792ef120903301339x1a554334u96dc205d13d88a5d@mail.gmail.com> I think I'll keep my F-250 for a few more years. . . I ran over a Prius two days ago and all I felt was a little bump . . . . 2009/3/30 Rex > They should be nervous.... One fireman I talked to, said that a couple > have already died... they touched > the wrecked vehicle and got shocked! There has already been a bunch of > required design changes to allow > for cutting circuits from outside the vehicle in the event of a crash. Use > your imagination as to how many > points of access might be needed! If you come upon an electric vehicle > crash, and you hear the electric > rotor turning, Don't Touch! You could very well become the ground wire! > > Rex > > ------------------------------ > Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:25:40 -0500 > From: khoard at gmail.com > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol > > I was talking to a fireman a few days ago. . . . they are very nervous > about electric / hybrid cars from a safety point of view. > > Would you want to be cutting into a car with the Jaws of Life knowing that > somewhere in the twisted wreckage is a 400S-20P Thunder Power LiPo?? Even > if the batts are A123's, you still have some very large current carrying > wires flopping around somewhere. > > But hey, we're in a planetary emergency, right?? > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 2:12 PM, wrote: > > Indeed!!! I like what Tesla Motors have done with their sports coupe. With > minimal weight in the 300 hp motor (I've read the motor weighs > 75#s...wow!!)and no real transmission, the car can be made light. I've also > read that batteries are not complete losses when they lose cells. Only the > bad cells get replaced which keeps repair cost down. I like that aspect of > these cars a lot. And the 200-250 mile range on a charge also works just > great with simple overnight recharge cycles. > > The price tag is the only thing that doesn't compute. Hopefully that will > come down as more people buy into this "new" technology. IF I won the > lottery I would buy one or three. > > These are not your every day golf cart types, by any stretch. > > Every one should know that Nikola Tesla invented the Tesla coil (duh!! make > spark ignition practical), but did you know he invented the electric motor? > (Among many other things that have revolutionized every day life). The more > I read about this man the more in awe I am > > MattK > > -----Original Message----- > From: krishlan fitzsimmons > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > Sent: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 2:36 pm > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol > > Not exactly planes, but for those of us that like E stuff, here is some > interesting video's. > Watch 2 and 3's video's. > http://gas2.org/2009/03/29/worlds-top-10-fastest-electric-cars/ > > Next time I'm at the track and there > 's an E car there, I think I'll put my money on it. > Technology is amazing! > > > > Chris > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > > > > -- > > Keith Hoard > Collierville, TN > khoard at gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpavlick at idseng.com Mon Mar 30 13:04:20 2009 From: jpavlick at idseng.com (John Pavlick) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 21:04:20 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <745863.50335.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Ask them about side-curtain airbags... VBG ? John Pavlick --- On Mon, 3/30/09, Rex wrote: From: Rex Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol To: "NSRCA-discussion" Date: Monday, March 30, 2009, 8:08 PM #yiv1951937884 .hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #yiv1951937884 { font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;} They should be nervous....? One fireman I talked to, said that a couple have already died...? they touched the wrecked vehicle and got shocked!?? There has already been a bunch of required design changes to allow? for cutting circuits from outside the vehicle in the event of a crash.? Use your imagination as to how many points of access might be needed!? If you come?upon an electric vehicle crash, and you hear the electric rotor turning, Don't Touch!??You could very?well become the ground wire! ? Rex ? Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:25:40 -0500 From: khoard at gmail.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol I was talking to a fireman a few days ago. . . . they are very nervous about electric / hybrid cars from a safety point of view.? Would you want to be cutting into a car with the Jaws of Life knowing that somewhere in the twisted wreckage is a 400S-20P Thunder Power LiPo??? Even if the batts are A123's, you still have some very large current carrying wires flopping around somewhere. But hey, we're in a planetary emergency, right?? On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 2:12 PM, wrote: Indeed!!! I like what Tesla Motors have done with their sports coupe. With minimal weight in the 300 hp motor (I've read the motor weighs 75#s...wow!!)and no real transmission, the car can be made light. I've also read that batteries are not complete losses when they lose cells. Only the bad cells get replaced which keeps repair cost down. I like that aspect of these cars a lot. And the 200-250 mile range on a charge also works just great with simple overnight recharge cycles. The price tag is the only thing that doesn't compute. Hopefully that will come down as more people buy into this "new" technology. IF I won the lottery I would buy one or three. These are not your every day golf cart types, by any stretch. Every one should know that Nikola Tesla invented the Tesla coil (duh!! make spark ignition practical), but did you know he invented the electric motor? (Among many other things that have revolutionized every day life). The more I read about this man the more in awe I am MattK -----Original Message----- From: krishlan fitzsimmons To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Sent: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 2:36 pm Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol Not exactly planes, but for those of us that like E stuff, here is some interesting video's. Watch 2 and 3's video's. http://gas2.org/2009/03/29/worlds-top-10-fastest-electric-cars/ Next time I'm at the track and there 's an E car there, I think I'll put my money on it. Technology is amazing! Chris ? ? ?? ?? ? ? _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rcairbob1 at comcast.net Mon Mar 30 13:14:14 2009 From: rcairbob1 at comcast.net (Robert Satalino) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 21:14:14 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs In-Reply-To: <20090330012717.AC7DC11543@bridi.netexpress.com> References: <179662.80049.qm@web80501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6377D0A1-705D-422B-8FD6-13295A37F116@socal.rr.com> <29842D4801444D58AA8F2FD1B89A784A@Dave007> <7917A530-EF46-4F5E-9A8D-8C0843D605B7@socal.rr.com> <2DE3F9DF-4753-4275-83E2-7AA2EADBE3D1@comcast.net> <20090330012717.AC7DC11543@bridi.netexpress.com> Message-ID: From old relays here the # hp33-L-AC115V Robert Satalino rcairbob1 at comcast.net On Mar 29, 2009, at 8:27 PM, Phil Spelt wrote: > Right, and you get them where????? > > At 08:59 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote: >> I use simple relay springs. They work great , they are used and >> are free. >> >> >> Robert Satalino >> rcairbob1 at comcast.net >> >> >> >> On Mar 27, 2009, at 5:01 PM, James Oddino wrote: >> >>> Dave's picasa was what I was looking for. I had it all the time. >>> Thanks. >>> >>> Now the question is, will stiffer springs help my flying? >>> >>> Jim O >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 26, 2009, at 6:39 PM, Dave Reaville wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Jim >>>> >>>> I don't profess to know the issues with the encoders but the >>>> procedure is show here... pretty straight forward. >>>> >>>> http://picasaweb.google.com/Dave.Reaville/14MZGimbalSpringChange >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: James Oddino >>>> To: General discussion >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 4:20 PM >>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 14MZ springs >>>> >>>> >>>> I remember seeing an in depth procedure with photos showing how to >>>> replace the springs in a 14MZ. Seems like it was on someone's >>>> website. I thought I bookmarked it but I can't seem to find it. >>>> anyone know what I'm talking about? >>>> >>>> Jim O >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > --> There are only two types of aircraft -- fighters and targets. > > Phil Spelt, Webmaster & Past President, Knox County Radio Control > Society, Inc. > URL: http://www.kcrctn.com > AMA--1294, Scientific Leader Member, SPA--177 > My URL: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/~chuenkan/ > (865) 435-1476 v (865) 604-0541 c > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AtwoodDon at aol.com Mon Mar 30 13:52:33 2009 From: AtwoodDon at aol.com (AtwoodDon at aol.com) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 21:52:33 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol Message-ID: Those are some pretty impressive e-cars!!! I got a call from Rich Mendonsa yesterday telling me Formula 1 racing is now allowing an 'electric boost' system in it's cars. Apparently some of the teams are already using it. Rich says it is a regenerative system and also said you can tell when the electric boost kicks in, the engine rpm jumps. So basically, the Formula 1 teams are going 'hybrid'. Here is a link explaining the rules, etc. _http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1046_ (http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1046) D In a message dated 3/30/2009 11:37:48 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com writes: Not exactly planes, but for those of us that like E stuff, here is some interesting video's. Watch 2 and 3's video's. _http://gas2.org/2009/03/29/worlds-top-10-fastest-electric-cars/_ (http://gas2.org/2009/03/29/worlds-top-10-fastest-electric-cars/) Next time I'm at the track and there's an E car there, I think I'll put my money on it. Technology is amazing! Chris _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000003) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chuenkan at comcast.net Mon Mar 30 14:04:32 2009 From: chuenkan at comcast.net (Phil Spelt) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 22:04:32 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090330220431.3E78811543@bridi.netexpress.com> As I understand it, there are two options for the "braking power energy savings systems": the electric one, and one that uses a flywheel to store the energy generated via braking. There was a article in the SAE Automotive Engineering International magazine several months ago. Unfortunately, I toss them after I read them -- too much paper accumulates otherwise. I'll see if the SAE has it available on the web site if anyone is interested. At 05:49 PM 3/30/2009, you wrote: >Those are some pretty impressive e-cars!!! > >I got a call from Rich Mendonsa yesterday telling me Formula 1 >racing is now allowing an 'electric boost' system in it's cars. >Apparently some of the teams are already using it. Rich says it is >a regenerative system and also said you can tell when the electric >boost kicks in, the engine rpm jumps. So basically, the Formula 1 >teams are going 'hybrid'. > >Here is a link explaining the rules, >etc. >http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1046 > >D > >In a message dated 3/30/2009 11:37:48 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, >homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com writes: >Not exactly planes, but for those of us that like E stuff, here is >some interesting video's. >Watch 2 and 3's video's. >http://gas2.org/2009/03/29/worlds-top-10-fastest-electric-cars/ > >Next time I'm at the track and there's an E car there, I think I'll >put my money on it. >Technology is amazing! > > > >Chris > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >NSRCA-discussion mailing list >NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > >---------- >Worried about job security? >Check >out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. >_______________________________________________ >NSRCA-discussion mailing list >NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -->There are only two types of aircraft -- fighters and targets. Phil Spelt, Webmaster & Past President, Knox County Radio Control Society, Inc. URL: http://www.kcrctn.com AMA--1294, Scientific Leader Member, SPA--177 My URL: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/~chuenkan/ (865) 435-1476 v (865) 604-0541 c -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Tom.Koenig at actewagl.com.au Mon Mar 30 14:19:00 2009 From: Tom.Koenig at actewagl.com.au (Koenig, Tom) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 22:19:00 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol-F1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <724ADB95DA93CC4BA53B10F84AF857775EB80B3D@CBRMAIL10.actewagl.production.com.au> I just spent the weekend at the Formula 1 in Melbourne. It was huge fun as usual, and how the mighty have fallen! One very hot topic of discussion was just how effective K.E.R.S actually was. The simple truth was that most of teams using it gained absolutely nothing from it! The cars were slow-Ferrari, McClaren and the Renaults may as well have gotten out and pushed! The cars were dogs, simple as that. Toyota was fast, as were the Red Bulls and Williams. Brawn was in a league of their own-if they had a stereo in their cars, the guys may as well have had a pleasant Sunday drive! It was interesting to see all the track Marshalls with their high Voltage gloves and earthing wands. The team mechanics also practised their pit stops differently, also wearing new PPE. All had new respect for the dangers for the new system-that was certainly evident. All in all, very interesting...especially Richard Branson's show girls attached to each arm. The man sure knows good timing and how to make an entrance as he announced sponsorship to BRAWN GP, which offcourse just absolutely stuck it to the big teams. I suspect that there were a few managers falling on their swords back at Honda headquarters for their impeccable timing on pulling out of F1 just a few months before! Tom ________________________________ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of AtwoodDon at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, 31 March 2009 8:49 AM To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol Those are some pretty impressive e-cars!!! I got a call from Rich Mendonsa yesterday telling me Formula 1 racing is now allowing an 'electric boost' system in it's cars. Apparently some of the teams are already using it. Rich says it is a regenerative system and also said you can tell when the electric boost kicks in, the engine rpm jumps. So basically, the Formula 1 teams are going 'hybrid'. Here is a link explaining the rules, etc. http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1046 D In a message dated 3/30/2009 11:37:48 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com writes: Not exactly planes, but for those of us that like E stuff, here is some interesting video's. Watch 2 and 3's video's. http://gas2.org/2009/03/29/worlds-top-10-fastest-electric-cars/ Next time I'm at the track and there's an E car there, I think I'll put my money on it. Technology is amazing! Chris _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ________________________________ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. ________________________________ ************************************************************************ *PLEASE NOTE* This email and any attachments may be confidential. If received in error, please delete all copies and advise the sender. The reproduction or dissemination of this email or its attachments is prohibited without the consent of the sender. WARNING RE VIRUSES: Our computer systems sweep outgoing email to guard against viruses, but no warranty is given that this email or its attachments are virus free. Before opening or using attachments, please check for viruses. Our liability is limited to the re-supply of any affected attachments. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender expressly, and with authority, states them to be the views of the organisation. ************************************************************************ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joddino at socal.rr.com Mon Mar 30 14:41:39 2009 From: joddino at socal.rr.com (James Oddino) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 22:41:39 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I watched most of the race Saturday night and so far it doesn't look like the boost is worth the extra weight. They get an extra 80 HP (400 Volts and 200 Amps) but it weighs 80 pounds. The spec writers have it handicapped by dictating they can only use it once per lap for about 6 seconds. I was hoping it would make for more passing. The two new Brawn GP cars that came in first and second didn't use it. We could use the concept primarily to use the energy we waste. Then we wouldn't need to run the packs as low and might even be able to use smaller lighter packs. Jim On Mar 30, 2009, at 2:49 PM, AtwoodDon at aol.com wrote: > Those are some pretty impressive e-cars!!! > > I got a call from Rich Mendonsa yesterday telling me Formula 1 > racing is now allowing an 'electric boost' system in it's cars. > Apparently some of the teams are already using it. Rich says it is > a regenerative system and also said you can tell when the electric > boost kicks in, the engine rpm jumps. So basically, the Formula 1 > teams are going 'hybrid'. > > Here is a link explaining the rules, etc. http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1046 > > D > > In a message dated 3/30/2009 11:37:48 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com > writes: > Not exactly planes, but for those of us that like E stuff, here is > some interesting video's. > Watch 2 and 3's video's. > http://gas2.org/2009/03/29/worlds-top-10-fastest-electric-cars/ > > Next time I'm at the track and there's an E car there, I think I'll > put my money on it. > Technology is amazing! > > > > Chris > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a > recession. > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnhiller at earthlink.net Mon Mar 30 15:33:52 2009 From: jnhiller at earthlink.net (J N Hiller) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 23:33:52 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol In-Reply-To: <49d122f7.0936640a.2d36.ffffe0b4@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Maybe Yucca Mountain. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Ryan Smith Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 12:52 PM To: 'General pattern discussion' Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol Good point. That's something I haven't thought of until you brought it up. It's going to be fun disposing of all of those batteries as well. _____ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Keith Hoard Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 3:26 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol I was talking to a fireman a few days ago. . . . they are very nervous about electric / hybrid cars from a safety point of view. Would you want to be cutting into a car with the Jaws of Life knowing that somewhere in the twisted wreckage is a 400S-20P Thunder Power LiPo?? Even if the batts are A123's, you still have some very large current carrying wires flopping around somewhere. But hey, we're in a planetary emergency, right?? On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 2:12 PM, < rcmaster199 at aol.com > wrote: Indeed!!! I like what Tesla Motors have done with their sports coupe. With minimal weight in the 300 hp motor (I've read the motor weighs 75#s...wow!!)and no real transmission, the car can be made light. I've also read that batteries are not complete losses when they lose cells. Only the bad cells get replaced which keeps repair cost down. I like that aspect of these cars a lot. And the 200-250 mile range on a charge also works just great with simple overnight recharge cycles. The price tag is the only thing that doesn't compute. Hopefully that will come down as more people buy into this "new" technology. IF I won the lottery I would buy one or three. These are not your every day golf cart types, by any stretch. Every one should know that Nikola Tesla invented the Tesla coil (duh!! make spark ignition practical), but did you know he invented the electric motor? (Among many other things that have revolutionized every day life). The more I read about this man the more in awe I am MattK -----Original Message----- From: krishlan fitzsimmons < homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Sent: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 2:36 pm Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol Not exactly planes, but for those of us that like E stuff, here is some interesting video's. Watch 2 and 3's video's. http://gas2.org/2009/03/29/worlds-top-10-fastest-electric-cars/ Next time I'm at the track and there 's an E car there, I think I'll put my money on it. Technology is amazing! Chris _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lightfoot at sc.rr.com Mon Mar 30 15:40:03 2009 From: lightfoot at sc.rr.com (Jay Marshall) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 23:40:03 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <99DD953A15574D7BA40EFCD359F6A730@jaysdesktop> Obama has already nixed that. Jay Marshall -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of J N Hiller Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 7:34 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol Maybe Yucca Mountain. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Ryan Smith Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 12:52 PM To: 'General pattern discussion' Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol Good point. That's something I haven't thought of until you brought it up. It's going to be fun disposing of all of those batteries as well. _____ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Keith Hoard Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 3:26 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol I was talking to a fireman a few days ago. . . . they are very nervous about electric / hybrid cars from a safety point of view. Would you want to be cutting into a car with the Jaws of Life knowing that somewhere in the twisted wreckage is a 400S-20P Thunder Power LiPo?? Even if the batts are A123's, you still have some very large current carrying wires flopping around somewhere. But hey, we're in a planetary emergency, right?? On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 2:12 PM, wrote: Indeed!!! I like what Tesla Motors have done with their sports coupe. With minimal weight in the 300 hp motor (I've read the motor weighs 75#s...wow!!)and no real transmission, the car can be made light. I've also read that batteries are not complete losses when they lose cells. Only the bad cells get replaced which keeps repair cost down. I like that aspect of these cars a lot. And the 200-250 mile range on a charge also works just great with simple overnight recharge cycles. The price tag is the only thing that doesn't compute. Hopefully that will come down as more people buy into this "new" technology. IF I won the lottery I would buy one or three. These are not your every day golf cart types, by any stretch. Every one should know that Nikola Tesla invented the Tesla coil (duh!! make spark ignition practical), but did you know he invented the electric motor? (Among many other things that have revolutionized every day life). The more I read about this man the more in awe I am MattK -----Original Message----- From: krishlan fitzsimmons To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Sent: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 2:36 pm Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol Not exactly planes, but for those of us that like E stuff, here is some interesting video's. Watch 2 and 3's video's. http://gas2.org/2009/03/29/worlds-top-10-fastest-electric-cars/ Next time I'm at the track and there 's an E car there, I think I'll put my money on it. Technology is amazing! Chris _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 30 15:43:41 2009 From: homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com (krishlan fitzsimmons) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 23:43:41 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol Message-ID: <348795.53319.qm@web33007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Now I thought I said for Electric eyes only.. lol Chris ? ? ? --- On Mon, 3/30/09, Jay Marshall wrote: From: Jay Marshall Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol To: "'General pattern discussion'" Date: Monday, March 30, 2009, 4:39 PM Obama has already nixed that? ? Jay Marshall -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of J N Hiller Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 7:34 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol ? Maybe Yucca Mountain. Jim ? -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Ryan Smith Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 12:52 PM To: 'General pattern discussion' Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol ? Good point. ? That?s something I haven?t thought of until you brought it up. It?s going to be fun disposing of all of those batteries as well? ? ? ? From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Keith Hoard Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 3:26 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol ? I was talking to a fireman a few days ago. . . . they are very nervous about electric / hybrid cars from a safety point of view.? Would you want to be cutting into a car with the Jaws of Life knowing that somewhere in the twisted wreckage is a 400S-20P Thunder Power LiPo??? Even if the batts are A123's, you still have some very large current carrying wires flopping around somewhere. But hey, we're in a planetary emergency, right?? On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 2:12 PM, wrote: Indeed!!! I like what Tesla Motors have done with their sports coupe. With minimal weight in the 300 hp motor (I've read the motor weighs 75#s...wow!!)and no real transmission, the car can be made light. I've also read that batteries are not complete losses when they lose cells. Only the bad cells get replaced which keeps repair cost down. I like that aspect of these cars a lot. And the 200-250 mile range on a charge also works just great with simple overnight recharge cycles. The price tag is the only thing that doesn't compute. Hopefully that will come down as more people buy into this "new" technology. IF I won the lottery I would buy one or three. These are not your every day golf cart types, by any stretch. Every one should know that Nikola Tesla invented the Tesla coil (duh!! make spark ignition practical), but did you know he invented the electric motor? (Among many other things that have revolutionized every day life). The more I read about this man the more in awe I am MattK -----Original Message----- From: krishlan fitzsimmons To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Sent: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 2:36 pm Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol Not exactly planes, but for those of us that like E stuff, here is some interesting video's. Watch 2 and 3's video's. http://gas2.org/2009/03/29/worlds-top-10-fastest-electric-cars/ Next time I'm at the track and there 's an E car there, I think I'll put my money on it. Technology is amazing! Chris ? ? ?? ?? ? ? _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- Keith Hoard Collierville, TN khoard at gmail.com -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From getterflash at yahoo.com Mon Mar 30 17:37:37 2009 From: getterflash at yahoo.com (Bob Kane) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 01:37:37 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 2011 F3A World Championship In-Reply-To: <3454543c0903280935h4d7709afs7b24a09062bdaa25@mail.gmail.com> References: <3454543c0903280935h4d7709afs7b24a09062bdaa25@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <608862.83323.qm@web36705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> If the volunteer list is started, please add my name to it. Bob Kane getterflash at yahoo.com ________________________________ From: Derek Koopowitz To: General pattern discussion Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 12:35:35 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 2011 F3A World Championship The CIAM has just selected the USA to host the 2011 F3A World Championship in Muncie. Thank you to all the officers, board and AMA personnel that helped with the presentation and guidance in order for us to be awarded the WC's. My thanks also go to several people that approached me with the idea of hosting the WC's... Earl Haury and Tim Jesky were the main "culprits" but during the months that followed, many others confirmed to me that they saw a lot of value in the US hosting. See you in 2011! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aviv at motorola.com Mon Mar 30 17:44:58 2009 From: aviv at motorola.com (Shoval Aviv-BAS036) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 01:44:58 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Sportsman powerpoint In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <443737100552D048AACB53EB15792E4C038457B1@zil01exm61.ds.mot.com> Is it me or that there is a mistake in slide #5 (401 -3 stall turn without rolls)? At the highest point of stall turn the model is shown with belly (wheels) pointing the wrong direction , unless the entry and exit are during inverted flight but this is not the case... ________________________________ From: Joe Lachowski [mailto:jlachow at hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 2:53 PM To: NSRCA Discussion List Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Sportsman powerpoint http://nsrca.us/judging-sequences/schedules.html ________________________________ From: anthonyr105 at hotmail.com To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:44:23 -0400 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Sportsman powerpoint Is this on the website and I am just not finding it? We had some nice diagrams at the WRAM show and I wanted to make some copies. Like to have a few in the car in case one of the locals gets interested. Anthony ________________________________ Internet Explorer 8 - Get your Hotmail Accelerated. Download free! ________________________________ Internet Explorer 8 - Get your Hotmail Accelerated. Download free! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alidose at att.net Mon Mar 30 18:03:45 2009 From: alidose at att.net (Ali Dose) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 02:03:45 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] USA CIAM Representative? In-Reply-To: <56DDD469-31F3-494F-A5F7-B82134D0E2AC@cox.net> References: <56DDD469-31F3-494F-A5F7-B82134D0E2AC@cox.net> Message-ID: <10B089B8D683447180F23CCA9DAADCF3@BoydDosePC> Mr. Van Putte, I appreciate your response and "clearing up" the NSRCA's ability to "recommend" an individual to the AMA. Does the AMA accept input from others as well? Is it reasonable to assume that there exists some kind of process, albeit rather informal, that the AMA communicates to the appropriate special interest group board (NSRCA in this case) seeking/asking/has an interest in/give us a few names of... individuals who have the qualifications to be the single most important individual representing the USA precision aerobatic collective? If they do, could the NSRCA Board "share" this with the members? Even if one were to "diminish" the precision aerobatic's collective interest in the position as not that interesting...and assuming that the leader's of the special interest group recognized the fantastic opportunity to communicate the position, articulate the potential the candidate could provide to the precision aerobatic collective, create enthusiasm and support/cooperation to get stuff done in the future...The position could be posted on this thread (I am a big moron it it was posted here) in the K-Factor (I am a bigger moron if it was posted there)? Once again, Derek is a fine individual. I am requesting the "behind the scenes" process, to insure that in the future, every candidate who is qualified, experienced, passionate about radio control precision aerobatics has the same opportunity to learn, prepare for and be apart of the USA CIAM representative selection process. "...Done Deal..." is not a specific enough answer for me. This thread may not be the most appropriate venue to discuss and may be reached at my office (312) 580-6838, or this e-mail. Rusty Dose Thrilled for Derek Thrilled for the 2011 World Champs in Muncie Dedicated to all the fine modelers "not always included" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Van Putte" To: "General pattern discussion" Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:51 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] USA CIAM Representative? > Well, the first thing we need to get cleared up is that the position of > CIAM representative is an AMA position. NSRCA does not have anything > more than the ability to recommend an individual. Ryan Smith explained > what went on there, so I won't repeat what he wrote. AMA accepted the > recommendation of Derek as the CIAM representative. Done deal. > > Ron Van Putte > > On Mar 26, 2009, at 8:35 PM, Ali Dose wrote: > >> I learned yesterday that "we" have a new CIAM representative, Derek >> Koopowitz, who has replaced Chris Lakin. Apparently, congratulations to >> Derek. >> >> How is the individual selected? >> Who is on the nominating Committee? >> Is there such a committee? >> How are the candidates views and opinions communicated? >> Who votes? >> Is the NSRCA, as the AMA's FAI F3A special interest group, responsible >> for the process and then an AMA official, after careful consideration >> and review "rubber stamps" the submission? >> Did I need to have a FAI stamp to participate? >> Am I the last to know? >> >> Derek is a fine choice AND there are also a bunch of others who, I hope, >> were considered and reviewed... >> >> who have made significant contributions to the sport on the local, >> regional and national levels, have significant leadership experience, >> have attended numerous FAI F3A World Championships as a Team member or >> Manager or Team volunteer, have been involved at the highest levels and >> ample amounts of time to focus on the role without distration or other >> responsibilities... >> >> who also would make excellent contributions and continue the traditions >> of excellence of our current and past CIAM representatives. >> >> >> Respectfully, >> >> Rusty Dose >> Past NSRCA Treasurer >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From astafford at swtexas.net Mon Mar 30 18:04:06 2009 From: astafford at swtexas.net (Archie Stafford) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 02:04:06 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 2011 F3A World Championship In-Reply-To: <608862.83323.qm@web36705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <3454543c0903280935h4d7709afs7b24a09062bdaa25@mail.gmail.com> <608862.83323.qm@web36705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <757B5085-60E3-4535-B588-1FDD0C52DC46@swtexas.net> Put me down as well. I'd be glad to help. Arch Sent from my iPhone On Mar 30, 2009, at 8:37 PM, Bob Kane wrote: > If the volunteer list is started, please add my name to it. > > Bob Kane > getterflash at yahoo.com > > > From: Derek Koopowitz > To: General pattern discussion > Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 12:35:35 PM > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 2011 F3A World Championship > > The CIAM has just selected the USA to host the 2011 F3A World > Championship in Muncie. Thank you to all the officers, board and > AMA personnel that helped with the presentation and guidance in > order for us to be awarded the WC's. My thanks also go to several > people that approached me with the idea of hosting the WC's... Earl > Haury and Tim Jesky were the main "culprits" but during the months > that followed, many others confirmed to me that they saw a lot of > value in the US hosting. > > See you in 2011! > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wnasse at telus.net Mon Mar 30 18:40:24 2009 From: wnasse at telus.net (Walter Nasse) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 02:40:24 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Futaba 9Z Transmitter Battery Message-ID: BlankMy 9Z transmitter battery is in need of replacement. Would there be a problem replacing the batteries inside the plastic case with a matched pack sold at the local hobby store and soldered to the connector? Any other suggestions? Thanks in advance Walter No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.28 - Release Date: 3/25/2009 12:00 AM From milehipilot at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 18:47:27 2009 From: milehipilot at gmail.com (Michael Ramsey) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 02:47:27 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Futaba 9Z Transmitter Battery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9FEDA5C8949D4B57A052BCAB10A24DF3@michaelramsey> It's doable! I'd recommend 2100 capacity NiMH cells; the pack I purchased from Batteries America just barely fits the box in my 9WC2. Michael... -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Walter Nasse Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:40 PM To: NSRCA Mailing List Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Futaba 9Z Transmitter Battery BlankMy 9Z transmitter battery is in need of replacement. Would there be a problem replacing the batteries inside the plastic case with a matched pack sold at the local hobby store and soldered to the connector? Any other suggestions? Thanks in advance Walter No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.28 - Release Date: 3/25/2009 12:00 AM _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From jonlowe at aol.com Mon Mar 30 18:50:59 2009 From: jonlowe at aol.com (Jon Lowe) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 02:50:59 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Futaba 9Z Transmitter Battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CB7FC29E2F7AB4-150C-1C28@FWM-D34.sysops.aol.com> Sure can. See this how-to on the NoBS battery website. http://www.hangtimes.com/txpacks.html Jon Lowe -----Original Message----- From: Walter Nasse To: NSRCA Mailing List Sent: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 9:40 pm Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Futaba 9Z Transmitter Battery BlankMy 9Z transmitter battery is in need of replacement. Would there be a problem replacing the batteries inside the plastic case with a matched pack sold at the local hobby store and soldered to the connector? Any other suggestions? Thanks in advance Walter No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.28 - Release Date: 3/25/2009 12:00 AM _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From rclen123 at roadrunner.com Mon Mar 30 19:15:34 2009 From: rclen123 at roadrunner.com (rclen) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 03:15:34 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol In-Reply-To: <96592.15552.qm@web33003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <96592.15552.qm@web33003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49D18ADD.1050905@roadrunner.com> krishlan fitzsimmons wrote: > Not exactly planes, but for those of us that like E stuff, here is > some interesting video's. > Watch 2 and 3's video's. > http://gas2.org/2009/03/29/worlds-top-10-fastest-electric-cars/ > > Next time I'm at the track and there's an E car there, I think I'll > put my money on it. > Technology is amazing! > > > > */Chris /* > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion For Electric eyes only is really an eye opener, thanks for the info. Lynn Burks From vanputte at cox.net Mon Mar 30 19:47:27 2009 From: vanputte at cox.net (Ron Van Putte) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 03:47:27 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] USA CIAM Representative? In-Reply-To: <10B089B8D683447180F23CCA9DAADCF3@BoydDosePC> References: <56DDD469-31F3-494F-A5F7-B82134D0E2AC@cox.net> <10B089B8D683447180F23CCA9DAADCF3@BoydDosePC> Message-ID: Rather than have any NSRCA representative attempt to describe what AMA's CIAM representative selection process is, my suggestion is that you contact AMA through your district VP or AVPs and ask them what their process is. Ron Van Putte On Mar 30, 2009, at 10:03 PM, Ali Dose wrote: > Mr. Van Putte, > > I appreciate your response and "clearing up" the NSRCA's ability to > "recommend" an individual to the AMA. Does the AMA accept input > from others as well? > > Is it reasonable to assume that there exists some kind of process, > albeit rather informal, that the AMA communicates to the > appropriate special interest group board (NSRCA in this case) > seeking/asking/has an interest in/give us a few names of... > individuals who have the qualifications to be the single most > important individual representing the USA precision aerobatic > collective? If they do, could the NSRCA Board "share" this with > the members? > > Even if one were to "diminish" the precision aerobatic's collective > interest in the position as not that interesting...and assuming > that the leader's of the special interest group recognized the > fantastic opportunity to communicate the position, articulate the > potential the candidate could provide to the precision aerobatic > collective, create enthusiasm and support/cooperation to get stuff > done in the future...The position could be posted on this thread (I > am a big moron it it was posted here) in the K-Factor (I am a > bigger moron if it was posted there)? > > Once again, Derek is a fine individual. > > I am requesting the "behind the scenes" process, to insure that in > the future, every candidate who is qualified, experienced, > passionate about radio control precision aerobatics has the same > opportunity to learn, prepare for and be apart of the USA CIAM > representative selection process. > > "...Done Deal..." is not a specific enough answer for me. > > This thread may not be the most appropriate venue to discuss and > may be reached at my office (312) 580-6838, or this e-mail. > > Rusty Dose > Thrilled for Derek > Thrilled for the 2011 World Champs in Muncie > Dedicated to all the fine modelers "not always included" > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Van Putte" > To: "General pattern discussion" > Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:51 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] USA CIAM Representative? > > >> Well, the first thing we need to get cleared up is that the >> position of CIAM representative is an AMA position. NSRCA does >> not have anything more than the ability to recommend an >> individual. Ryan Smith explained what went on there, so I won't >> repeat what he wrote. AMA accepted the recommendation of Derek >> as the CIAM representative. Done deal. >> >> Ron Van Putte >> >> On Mar 26, 2009, at 8:35 PM, Ali Dose wrote: >> >>> I learned yesterday that "we" have a new CIAM representative, >>> Derek Koopowitz, who has replaced Chris Lakin. Apparently, >>> congratulations to Derek. >>> >>> How is the individual selected? >>> Who is on the nominating Committee? >>> Is there such a committee? >>> How are the candidates views and opinions communicated? >>> Who votes? >>> Is the NSRCA, as the AMA's FAI F3A special interest group, >>> responsible for the process and then an AMA official, after >>> careful consideration and review "rubber stamps" the submission? >>> Did I need to have a FAI stamp to participate? >>> Am I the last to know? >>> >>> Derek is a fine choice AND there are also a bunch of others who, >>> I hope, were considered and reviewed... >>> >>> who have made significant contributions to the sport on the >>> local, regional and national levels, have significant leadership >>> experience, have attended numerous FAI F3A World Championships as >>> a Team member or Manager or Team volunteer, have been involved >>> at the highest levels and ample amounts of time to focus on the >>> role without distration or other responsibilities... >>> >>> who also would make excellent contributions and continue the >>> traditions of excellence of our current and past CIAM >>> representatives. >>> >>> >>> Respectfully, >>> >>> Rusty Dose >>> Past NSRCA Treasurer >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From vanputte at cox.net Mon Mar 30 19:48:47 2009 From: vanputte at cox.net (Ron Van Putte) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 03:48:47 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Futaba 9Z Transmitter Battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <426588D1-892C-458A-9755-46485C80C7F8@cox.net> In my experience, no. I have done it several times. Ron On Mar 30, 2009, at 10:40 PM, Walter Nasse wrote: > My 9Z transmitter battery is in need of replacement. > > Would there be a problem replacing the batteries inside the plastic > case > with a matched pack sold at the local hobby store and soldered to the > connector? > > Any other suggestions? > > > Thanks in advance > > Walter > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.28 - Release Date: > 3/25/2009 12:00 > AM > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From steveandlaurel at valornet.com Mon Mar 30 19:50:06 2009 From: steveandlaurel at valornet.com (Steve Ford) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 03:50:06 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] USA CIAM Representative? References: <56DDD469-31F3-494F-A5F7-B82134D0E2AC@cox.net> <10B089B8D683447180F23CCA9DAADCF3@BoydDosePC> Message-ID: <1699B60EDCF74CFFA87F0C1DBA87F404@Home> I am just glad the "cloak and dagger" behind the scenes stuff takes place. My thanks to the volunteers who all made this happen. Steve Ford ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ali Dose" To: "General pattern discussion" Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 9:03 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] USA CIAM Representative? > Mr. Van Putte, > > I appreciate your response and "clearing up" the NSRCA's ability to > "recommend" an individual to the AMA. Does the AMA accept input from > others as well? > > Is it reasonable to assume that there exists some kind of process, albeit > rather informal, that the AMA communicates to the appropriate special > interest group board (NSRCA in this case) seeking/asking/has an interest > in/give us a few names of... individuals who have the qualifications to be > the single most important individual representing the USA precision > aerobatic collective? If they do, could the NSRCA Board "share" this with > the members? > > Even if one were to "diminish" the precision aerobatic's collective > interest in the position as not that interesting...and assuming that the > leader's of the special interest group recognized the fantastic > opportunity to communicate the position, articulate the potential the > candidate could provide to the precision aerobatic collective, create > enthusiasm and support/cooperation to get stuff done in the future...The > position could be posted on this thread (I am a big moron it it was posted > here) in the K-Factor (I am a bigger moron if it was posted there)? > > Once again, Derek is a fine individual. > > I am requesting the "behind the scenes" process, to insure that in the > future, every candidate who is qualified, experienced, passionate about > radio control precision aerobatics has the same opportunity to learn, > prepare for and be apart of the USA CIAM representative selection process. > > "...Done Deal..." is not a specific enough answer for me. > > This thread may not be the most appropriate venue to discuss and may be > reached at my office (312) 580-6838, or this e-mail. > > Rusty Dose > Thrilled for Derek > Thrilled for the 2011 World Champs in Muncie > Dedicated to all the fine modelers "not always included" > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ron Van Putte" > To: "General pattern discussion" > Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:51 PM > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] USA CIAM Representative? > > >> Well, the first thing we need to get cleared up is that the position of >> CIAM representative is an AMA position. NSRCA does not have anything >> more than the ability to recommend an individual. Ryan Smith explained >> what went on there, so I won't repeat what he wrote. AMA accepted the >> recommendation of Derek as the CIAM representative. Done deal. >> >> Ron Van Putte >> >> On Mar 26, 2009, at 8:35 PM, Ali Dose wrote: >> >>> I learned yesterday that "we" have a new CIAM representative, Derek >>> Koopowitz, who has replaced Chris Lakin. Apparently, congratulations >>> to Derek. >>> >>> How is the individual selected? >>> Who is on the nominating Committee? >>> Is there such a committee? >>> How are the candidates views and opinions communicated? >>> Who votes? >>> Is the NSRCA, as the AMA's FAI F3A special interest group, responsible >>> for the process and then an AMA official, after careful consideration >>> and review "rubber stamps" the submission? >>> Did I need to have a FAI stamp to participate? >>> Am I the last to know? >>> >>> Derek is a fine choice AND there are also a bunch of others who, I >>> hope, were considered and reviewed... >>> >>> who have made significant contributions to the sport on the local, >>> regional and national levels, have significant leadership experience, >>> have attended numerous FAI F3A World Championships as a Team member or >>> Manager or Team volunteer, have been involved at the highest levels and >>> ample amounts of time to focus on the role without distration or other >>> responsibilities... >>> >>> who also would make excellent contributions and continue the traditions >>> of excellence of our current and past CIAM representatives. >>> >>> >>> Respectfully, >>> >>> Rusty Dose >>> Past NSRCA Treasurer >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > From derekkoopowitz at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 20:37:51 2009 From: derekkoopowitz at gmail.com (Derek Koopowitz) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 04:37:51 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 2011 F3A World Championship In-Reply-To: <00a901c9afc5$1294f5a0$37bee0e0$@net> References: <99B8EFCA36A5724F87FF3C71B431D87204503E49E9@PEVM01.paragon-inc.com> <00a901c9afc5$1294f5a0$37bee0e0$@net> Message-ID: <52452FBCA4A64D9B9B66CBF8A33B891F@BENICIA> Thank you everyone for the kind words... It is really appreciated. I've received numerous emails offering to help and I hope, at some point, to take you all up on those offers. I will put our presentation on the website in the next couple of days - just trying to catch up with everthing going on here first. -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Archie Stafford Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 9:49 AM To: 'General pattern discussion' Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2011 F3A World Championship GREAT NEWS DEREK!!! Looking forward to it. I'll be glad to help anyway I can. Arch -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 11:36 AM To: 'nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org' Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2011 F3A World Championship Well Done to all involved!!! -Mark -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld ----- Original Message ----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org To: General pattern discussion Sent: Sat Mar 28 12:35:35 2009 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 2011 F3A World Championship The CIAM has just selected the USA to host the 2011 F3A World Championship in Muncie. Thank you to all the officers, board and AMA personnel that helped with the presentation and guidance in order for us to be awarded the WC's. My thanks also go to several people that approached me with the idea of hosting the WC's... Earl Haury and Tim Jesky were the main "culprits" but during the months that followed, many others confirmed to me that they saw a lot of value in the US hosting. See you in 2011! _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From bob at toprudder.com Tue Mar 31 03:57:43 2009 From: bob at toprudder.com (Bob Richards) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 11:57:43 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol Message-ID: <314007.21555.qm@web1112.biz.mail.sk1.yahoo.com> It is human nature for one to fear what one does not understand. This is new stuff. There are lots of horror stories. As soon as there is some understanding of what is involved, and perhaps some standards or conventions about cable placement (aka "fuel lines") battery placement (aka "fuel tank") then I don't think there will be any more fear than cutting into a conventional vehicle. Everyone knows there are not fuel lines running in the door posts - safe to cut there, etc. (Unless, of course, you happen upon one of Junior Johnson's old race cars - there might be some nitrous oxide inside the roll cage)? ;-) ? I think the bigger fear should be how to disarm an electric vehicle. Same as with our airplanes, just because the prop is not turning does not mean it isn't armed! ? Bob R. --- On Mon, 3/30/09, Jay Marshall wrote: What about fuel lines? Or a hydrogen tank? ? Jay Marshall -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Keith Hoard ? I was talking to a fireman a few days ago. . . . they are very nervous about electric / hybrid cars from a safety point of view.? Would you want to be cutting into a car with the Jaws of Life knowing that somewhere in the twisted wreckage is a 400S-20P Thunder Power LiPo??? Even if the batts are A123's, you still have some very large current carrying wires flopping around somewhere. But hey, we're in a planetary emergency, right?? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ejhaury at comcast.net Tue Mar 31 03:58:38 2009 From: ejhaury at comcast.net (Earl Haury) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 11:58:38 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] USA CIAM Representative? In-Reply-To: References: <56DDD469-31F3-494F-A5F7-B82134D0E2AC@cox.net><10B089B8D683447180F23CCA9DAADCF3@BoydDosePC> Message-ID: <331431D6D81344A69CA067E2AAA79490@EarlPC> Rusty I agree with Ron, selecting the US CIAM Fxx Technical Subcommittee reps is the responsibility of the AMA. Their process has not been obvious in years past, but understand that there are very few qualified folks who are willing to serve. Also there is no term limit attached to the job, so the selection of a new rep occurs infrequently. This is actually a good thing in that the rules cycles cover four years and it takes time to develop respect / relationships so as to be effective in the committee. I've been involved with F3A competition since 1979 and am only aware of Ron Chidgey and Chris Lakin holding the F3A job (Steve Helms was appointed interim rep to replace Ron until Chris accepted the job). I find it refreshing that the AMA sought recommendations from the NSRCA for a successor to Chris. It is an important job and US members have contributed immensely to what pattern is today through participation and innovation as members / leaders of the F3A subcommittees and the CIAM. Check http://www.fai.org/aeromodelling/ then "Official" to view the folks currently involved. Unfortunately, there is no requirement that our reps report back to the US pattern community directly - nor have they been required to seek advice regarding the community's wishes. As we've enjoyed very qualified, experienced, respected (by the world pattern community) reps, their actions have been in the best interest (IMHO) of pattern and the US pattern community. The lack of a reporting has let to misunderstanding of the influence and results provided by the US reps. The AMA's action of seeking input from the NSRCA for recommendations for the job speaks of the respect that the AMA has for the current NSRCA. The action of the NSRCA in taking the imitative to obtain and host the 2011 WC likely enhanced this respect. While the NSRCA has no "control" over the F3A rep, we certainly provide an opportunity for Derek to keep us apprised of subcommittee workings via the K-Factor and website / list. I look forward to the timely transfer of info and activities and I'm sure Derek will consider feedback as well. Maybe the NSRCA should develop a formal process for selecting the best candidate for the F3A rep job. This was the first time that we were ask to participate. The board members from each district sought candidates and solicited resumes. They voted for their preference. I'm proud to have been considered and consider it a job well done. Earl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Van Putte" To: "General pattern discussion" Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:47 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] USA CIAM Representative? > Rather than have any NSRCA representative attempt to describe what AMA's > CIAM representative selection process is, my suggestion is that you > contact AMA through your district VP or AVPs and ask them what their > process is. > > Ron Van Putte > > On Mar 30, 2009, at 10:03 PM, Ali Dose wrote: > >> Mr. Van Putte, >> >> I appreciate your response and "clearing up" the NSRCA's ability to >> "recommend" an individual to the AMA. Does the AMA accept input from >> others as well? >> >> Is it reasonable to assume that there exists some kind of process, >> albeit rather informal, that the AMA communicates to the appropriate >> special interest group board (NSRCA in this case) seeking/asking/has an >> interest in/give us a few names of... e >> individuals who have the qualifications to be the single most important >> individual representing the USA precision aerobatic collective? If they >> do, could the NSRCA Board "share" this with the members? >> >> Even if one were to "diminish" the precision aerobatic's collective >> interest in the position as not that interesting...and assuming that the >> leader's of the special interest group recognized the fantastic >> opportunity to communicate the position, articulate the potential the >> candidate could provide to the precision aerobatic collective, create >> enthusiasm and support/cooperation to get stuff done in the future...The >> position could be posted on this thread (I am a big moron it it was >> posted here) in the K-Factor (I am a bigger moron if it was posted >> there)? >> >> Once again, Derek is a fine individual. >> >> I am requesting the "behind the scenes" process, to insure that in the >> future, every candidate who is qualified, experienced, passionate about >> radio control precision aerobatics has the same opportunity to learn, >> prepare for and be apart of the USA CIAM representative selection >> process. >> >> "...Done Deal..." is not a specific enough answer for me. >> >> This thread may not be the most appropriate venue to discuss and may be >> reached at my office (312) 580-6838, or this e-mail. >> >> Rusty Dose >> Thrilled for Derek >> Thrilled for the 2011 World Champs in Muncie >> Dedicated to all the fine modelers "not always included" >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Van Putte" >> To: "General pattern discussion" >> Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:51 PM >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] USA CIAM Representative? >> >> >>> Well, the first thing we need to get cleared up is that the position >>> of CIAM representative is an AMA position. NSRCA does not have >>> anything more than the ability to recommend an individual. Ryan Smith >>> explained what went on there, so I won't repeat what he wrote. AMA >>> accepted the recommendation of Derek as the CIAM representative. Done >>> deal. >>> >>> Ron Van Putte >>> >>> On Mar 26, 2009, at 8:35 PM, Ali Dose wrote: >>> >>>> I learned yesterday that "we" have a new CIAM representative, Derek >>>> Koopowitz, who has replaced Chris Lakin. Apparently, congratulations >>>> to Derek. >>>> >>>> How is the individual selected? >>>> Who is on the nominating Committee? >>>> Is there such a committee? >>>> How are the candidates views and opinions communicated? >>>> Who votes? >>>> Is the NSRCA, as the AMA's FAI F3A special interest group, >>>> responsible for the process and then an AMA official, after careful >>>> consideration and review "rubber stamps" the submission? >>>> Did I need to have a FAI stamp to participate? >>>> Am I the last to know? >>>> >>>> Derek is a fine choice AND there are also a bunch of others who, I >>>> hope, were considered and reviewed... >>>> >>>> who have made significant contributions to the sport on the local, >>>> regional and national levels, have significant leadership experience, >>>> have attended numerous FAI F3A World Championships as a Team member >>>> or Manager or Team volunteer, have been involved at the highest >>>> levels and ample amounts of time to focus on the role without >>>> distration or other responsibilities... >>>> >>>> who also would make excellent contributions and continue the >>>> traditions of excellence of our current and past CIAM representatives. >>>> >>>> >>>> Respectfully, >>>> >>>> Rusty Dose >>>> Past NSRCA Treasurer >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From jaqfly at prodigy.net Tue Mar 31 04:09:56 2009 From: jaqfly at prodigy.net (Jim Quinn) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 12:09:56 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] USA CIAM Representative? In-Reply-To: <331431D6D81344A69CA067E2AAA79490@EarlPC> References: <56DDD469-31F3-494F-A5F7-B82134D0E2AC@cox.net><10B089B8D683447180F23CCA9DAADCF3@BoydDosePC> <331431D6D81344A69CA067E2AAA79490@EarlPC> Message-ID: <212867.93122.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Well said Earl! You are a great and honorable man! Jim Quinn ----- Original Message ---- From: Earl Haury To: General pattern discussion Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 7:57:46 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] USA CIAM Representative? Rusty I agree with Ron, selecting the US CIAM Fxx Technical Subcommittee reps is the responsibility of the AMA. Their process has not been obvious in years past, but understand that there are very few qualified folks who are willing to serve. Also there is no term limit attached to the job, so the selection of a new rep occurs infrequently. This is actually a good thing in that the rules cycles cover four years and it takes time to develop respect / relationships so as to be effective in the committee. I've been involved with F3A competition since 1979 and am only aware of Ron Chidgey and Chris Lakin holding the F3A job (Steve Helms was appointed interim rep to replace Ron until Chris accepted the job). I find it refreshing that the AMA sought recommendations from the NSRCA for a successor to Chris. It is an important job and US members have contributed immensely to what pattern is today through participation and innovation as members / leaders of the F3A subcommittees and the CIAM. Check http://www.fai.org/aeromodelling/? then "Official" to view the folks currently involved. Unfortunately, there is no requirement that our reps report back to the US pattern community directly - nor have they been required to seek advice regarding the community's wishes.? As we've enjoyed very qualified, experienced, respected (by the world pattern community) reps, their actions have been in the best interest (IMHO) of pattern and the US pattern community. The lack of a reporting has let to misunderstanding of the influence and results provided by the US reps. The AMA's action of seeking input from the NSRCA for recommendations for the job speaks of the respect that the AMA has for the current NSRCA. The action of the NSRCA in taking the imitative to obtain and host the 2011 WC likely enhanced this respect. While the NSRCA has no "control" over the F3A rep, we certainly provide an opportunity for Derek to keep us apprised of subcommittee workings via the K-Factor and website / list. I look forward to the timely transfer of info and activities and I'm sure Derek will consider feedback as well. Maybe the NSRCA should develop a formal process for selecting the best candidate for the F3A rep job. This was the first time that we were ask to participate. The board members from each district sought candidates and solicited resumes. They voted for their preference. I'm proud to have been considered and consider it a job well done. Earl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Van Putte" To: "General pattern discussion" Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:47 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] USA CIAM Representative? > Rather than have any NSRCA representative attempt to describe what? AMA's CIAM representative selection process is, my suggestion is that? you contact AMA through your district VP or AVPs and ask them what? their process is. > > Ron Van Putte > > On Mar 30, 2009, at 10:03 PM, Ali Dose wrote: > >> Mr. Van Putte, >> >> I appreciate your response and "clearing up" the NSRCA's ability to "recommend" an individual to the AMA.? Does the AMA accept input? from others as well? >> >> Is it reasonable to assume that there exists some kind of process, albeit rather informal, that the AMA communicates to the? appropriate special interest group board (NSRCA in this case)? seeking/asking/has an interest in/give us a few names of...? e >> individuals who have the qualifications to be the single most? important individual representing the USA precision aerobatic? collective?? If they do, could the NSRCA Board "share" this with? the members? >> >> Even if one were to "diminish" the precision aerobatic's collective interest in the position as not that interesting...and assuming? that the leader's of the special interest group recognized the? fantastic opportunity to communicate the position, articulate the? potential the candidate could provide to the precision aerobatic? collective, create enthusiasm and support/cooperation to get stuff? done in the future...The position could be posted on this thread (I? am a big moron it it was posted here) in the K-Factor (I am a? bigger moron if it was posted there)? >> >> Once again,? Derek is a fine individual. >> >> I am requesting the "behind the scenes" process, to insure that in? the future, every candidate who is qualified, experienced,? passionate about radio control precision aerobatics has the same? opportunity to learn, prepare for and be apart of the USA CIAM? representative selection process. >> >> "...Done Deal..." is not a specific enough answer for me. >> >> This thread may not be the most appropriate venue to discuss and? may be reached at my office (312) 580-6838, or this e-mail. >> >> Rusty Dose >> Thrilled for Derek >> Thrilled for the 2011 World Champs in Muncie >> Dedicated to all the fine modelers "not always included" >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Van Putte" >> To: "General pattern discussion" >> Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:51 PM >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] USA CIAM Representative? >> >> >>> Well, the first thing we need to get cleared up is that the? position of CIAM representative is an AMA position.? NSRCA does? not have anything more than the ability to recommend an? individual.? Ryan? Smith explained what went on there, so I won't? repeat what he wrote.? AMA accepted the recommendation of Derek? as the CIAM representative.? Done deal. >>> >>> Ron Van Putte >>> >>> On Mar 26, 2009, at 8:35 PM, Ali Dose wrote: >>> >>>> I learned yesterday that "we" have a new CIAM representative,? Derek Koopowitz, who has replaced Chris Lakin.? Apparently,? congratulations to Derek. >>>> >>>> How is the individual selected? >>>> Who is on the nominating Committee? >>>> Is there such a committee? >>>> How are the candidates views and opinions communicated? >>>> Who votes? >>>> Is the NSRCA, as the AMA's FAI F3A special interest group, responsible for the process and then an AMA official, after? careful consideration and review "rubber stamps" the submission? >>>> Did I need to have a FAI stamp to participate? >>>> Am I the last to know? >>>> >>>> Derek is a fine choice AND there are also a bunch of others who,? I hope, were considered and reviewed... >>>> >>>> who have made significant contributions to the sport on the? local, regional and national levels, have significant leadership? experience, have attended numerous FAI F3A World Championships as? a? Team member or Manager or Team volunteer, have been involved? at the? highest levels and ample amounts of time to focus on the? role? without distration or other responsibilities... >>>> >>>> who also would make excellent contributions and continue the traditions of excellence of our current and past CIAM? representatives. >>>> >>>> >>>> Respectfully, >>>> >>>> Rusty Dose >>>> Past NSRCA Treasurer >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From jpavlick at idseng.com Tue Mar 31 04:20:04 2009 From: jpavlick at idseng.com (John Pavlick) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 12:20:04 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Futaba 9Z Transmitter Battery In-Reply-To: <426588D1-892C-458A-9755-46485C80C7F8@cox.net> Message-ID: <743686.62261.qm@web80502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It's not hard to do as long as you're comfortable with a soldering iron. You may also want to disable the diode while you're at it so that you can use a fast charger (Sirius): http://www.siriuselectronics.com/index.php?main_page=page&id=13 ? John Pavlick --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Ron Van Putte wrote: From: Ron Van Putte Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Futaba 9Z Transmitter Battery To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 3:48 AM In my experience, no. I have done it several times. Ron On Mar 30, 2009, at 10:40 PM, Walter Nasse wrote: > My 9Z transmitter battery is in need of replacement. > > Would there be a problem replacing the batteries inside the plastic case > with a matched pack sold at the local hobby store and soldered to the > connector? > > Any other suggestions? > > > Thanks in advance > > Walter > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.28 - Release Date: 3/25/2009 12:00 > AM > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tony at radiosouthrc.com Tue Mar 31 06:02:38 2009 From: tony at radiosouthrc.com (Tony) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 14:02:38 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] USA CIAM Representative? In-Reply-To: <331431D6D81344A69CA067E2AAA79490@EarlPC> References: <56DDD469-31F3-494F-A5F7-B82134D0E2AC@cox.net><10B089B8D683447180F23CCA9DAADCF3@BoydDosePC> <331431D6D81344A69CA067E2AAA79490@EarlPC> Message-ID: <5C65FA7605664EDCA97A7FC797E38F30@Tony> As the AMA District V Vice-President, I can shed light on this subject. Due to the lack of participation in F3A at any level, I questioned why Chris Lakin was the USA representative to the CIAM. One of the main reasons that Chris took the position years ago was due to the fact that Ron Chidgey, long time CIAM chairman, was retiring from active participation in F3A and the CIAM. Chris pushed to get someone on the CIAM that was active, and was able to convince AMA President Dave Brown to appoint him. This position is filled by appointment from the AMA President. Chris has not been active for many years now, and I have always felt that we should keep active people in this position. The result is that the NSRCA has not been kept up to date with F3A happenings, nor have they had a representative voice on the CIAM. For those reasons, I questioned Dave Mathewson about this position. Dave agreed and the NSRCA was asked for a recommendation. Derek responded to Dave Mathewson with a couple of letters. One said that the NSRCA Board was looking at candidates and would make a final vote and recommendation to AMA. The result of the vote was that Derek was elected and his name was submitted to Dave Mathewson for appointment to USA CIAM representative for F3A. Dave agreed and appointed Derek. I don't know all the details of the NSRCA Board work to get to this point. AMA feels strongly that the SIG's should have a strong voice in who represents them, and I agree with that. Who better to speak on behalf of pattern than someone that is recommended by the Pattern SIG? I think Derek is a GREAT choice and he has already shown he can do the job by winning the USA bid for the F3A World Champs! I have been involved with WC before, and I know the amount of work involved. Derek is up to the task, and I believe that we have a great group of people in NSRCA that are more than willing to step up and not only make it happen, but do it with class and style so that the world will see why the USA is a haven for aerobatics! Anyway, I hope this helps everyone to understand. At least in the case of Dave Mathewson, choices that are made for these positions are done with the recommendation of the concerned SIG taken into consideration. Tony Stillman, President Radio South, Inc. 139 Altama Connector, Box 322 Brunswick, GA 31525 1-800-962-7802 www.radiosouthrc.com -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Earl Haury Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 7:58 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] USA CIAM Representative? Rusty I agree with Ron, selecting the US CIAM Fxx Technical Subcommittee reps is the responsibility of the AMA. Their process has not been obvious in years past, but understand that there are very few qualified folks who are willing to serve. Also there is no term limit attached to the job, so the selection of a new rep occurs infrequently. This is actually a good thing in that the rules cycles cover four years and it takes time to develop respect / relationships so as to be effective in the committee. I've been involved with F3A competition since 1979 and am only aware of Ron Chidgey and Chris Lakin holding the F3A job (Steve Helms was appointed interim rep to replace Ron until Chris accepted the job). I find it refreshing that the AMA sought recommendations from the NSRCA for a successor to Chris. It is an important job and US members have contributed immensely to what pattern is today through participation and innovation as members / leaders of the F3A subcommittees and the CIAM. Check http://www.fai.org/aeromodelling/ then "Official" to view the folks currently involved. Unfortunately, there is no requirement that our reps report back to the US pattern community directly - nor have they been required to seek advice regarding the community's wishes. As we've enjoyed very qualified, experienced, respected (by the world pattern community) reps, their actions have been in the best interest (IMHO) of pattern and the US pattern community. The lack of a reporting has let to misunderstanding of the influence and results provided by the US reps. The AMA's action of seeking input from the NSRCA for recommendations for the job speaks of the respect that the AMA has for the current NSRCA. The action of the NSRCA in taking the imitative to obtain and host the 2011 WC likely enhanced this respect. While the NSRCA has no "control" over the F3A rep, we certainly provide an opportunity for Derek to keep us apprised of subcommittee workings via the K-Factor and website / list. I look forward to the timely transfer of info and activities and I'm sure Derek will consider feedback as well. Maybe the NSRCA should develop a formal process for selecting the best candidate for the F3A rep job. This was the first time that we were ask to participate. The board members from each district sought candidates and solicited resumes. They voted for their preference. I'm proud to have been considered and consider it a job well done. Earl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Van Putte" To: "General pattern discussion" Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:47 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] USA CIAM Representative? > Rather than have any NSRCA representative attempt to describe what AMA's > CIAM representative selection process is, my suggestion is that you > contact AMA through your district VP or AVPs and ask them what their > process is. > > Ron Van Putte > > On Mar 30, 2009, at 10:03 PM, Ali Dose wrote: > >> Mr. Van Putte, >> >> I appreciate your response and "clearing up" the NSRCA's ability to >> "recommend" an individual to the AMA. Does the AMA accept input from >> others as well? >> >> Is it reasonable to assume that there exists some kind of process, >> albeit rather informal, that the AMA communicates to the appropriate >> special interest group board (NSRCA in this case) seeking/asking/has an >> interest in/give us a few names of... e >> individuals who have the qualifications to be the single most important >> individual representing the USA precision aerobatic collective? If they >> do, could the NSRCA Board "share" this with the members? >> >> Even if one were to "diminish" the precision aerobatic's collective >> interest in the position as not that interesting...and assuming that the >> leader's of the special interest group recognized the fantastic >> opportunity to communicate the position, articulate the potential the >> candidate could provide to the precision aerobatic collective, create >> enthusiasm and support/cooperation to get stuff done in the future...The >> position could be posted on this thread (I am a big moron it it was >> posted here) in the K-Factor (I am a bigger moron if it was posted >> there)? >> >> Once again, Derek is a fine individual. >> >> I am requesting the "behind the scenes" process, to insure that in the >> future, every candidate who is qualified, experienced, passionate about >> radio control precision aerobatics has the same opportunity to learn, >> prepare for and be apart of the USA CIAM representative selection >> process. >> >> "...Done Deal..." is not a specific enough answer for me. >> >> This thread may not be the most appropriate venue to discuss and may be >> reached at my office (312) 580-6838, or this e-mail. >> >> Rusty Dose >> Thrilled for Derek >> Thrilled for the 2011 World Champs in Muncie >> Dedicated to all the fine modelers "not always included" >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Van Putte" >> To: "General pattern discussion" >> Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:51 PM >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] USA CIAM Representative? >> >> >>> Well, the first thing we need to get cleared up is that the position >>> of CIAM representative is an AMA position. NSRCA does not have >>> anything more than the ability to recommend an individual. Ryan Smith >>> explained what went on there, so I won't repeat what he wrote. AMA >>> accepted the recommendation of Derek as the CIAM representative. Done >>> deal. >>> >>> Ron Van Putte >>> >>> On Mar 26, 2009, at 8:35 PM, Ali Dose wrote: >>> >>>> I learned yesterday that "we" have a new CIAM representative, Derek >>>> Koopowitz, who has replaced Chris Lakin. Apparently, congratulations >>>> to Derek. >>>> >>>> How is the individual selected? >>>> Who is on the nominating Committee? >>>> Is there such a committee? >>>> How are the candidates views and opinions communicated? >>>> Who votes? >>>> Is the NSRCA, as the AMA's FAI F3A special interest group, >>>> responsible for the process and then an AMA official, after careful >>>> consideration and review "rubber stamps" the submission? >>>> Did I need to have a FAI stamp to participate? >>>> Am I the last to know? >>>> >>>> Derek is a fine choice AND there are also a bunch of others who, I >>>> hope, were considered and reviewed... >>>> >>>> who have made significant contributions to the sport on the local, >>>> regional and national levels, have significant leadership experience, >>>> have attended numerous FAI F3A World Championships as a Team member >>>> or Manager or Team volunteer, have been involved at the highest >>>> levels and ample amounts of time to focus on the role without >>>> distration or other responsibilities... >>>> >>>> who also would make excellent contributions and continue the >>>> traditions of excellence of our current and past CIAM representatives. >>>> >>>> >>>> Respectfully, >>>> >>>> Rusty Dose >>>> Past NSRCA Treasurer >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From chuenkan at comcast.net Tue Mar 31 08:59:47 2009 From: chuenkan at comcast.net (Phil Spelt) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 16:59:47 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol In-Reply-To: <314007.21555.qm@web1112.biz.mail.sk1.yahoo.com> References: <314007.21555.qm@web1112.biz.mail.sk1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090331165946.5B0DE115B3@bridi.netexpress.com> Or, equally explosive, illegal moonshine!!! Ever tried any? It's like drinking kerosene with a kick... At 07:57 AM 3/31/2009, you wrote: > (Unless, of course, you happen upon one of Junior Johnson's old > race cars - there might be some nitrous oxide inside the roll cage) ;-) > >I think the bigger fear should be how to disarm an electric vehicle. >Same as with our airplanes, just because the prop is not turning >does not mean it isn't armed! > >Bob R. > > >--- On Mon, 3/30/09, Jay Marshall wrote: > > >What about fuel lines? Or a hydrogen tank? > > >Jay Marshall > >-----Original Message----- >From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org >[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Keith Hoard > > > >I was talking to a fireman a few days ago. . . . they are very >nervous about electric / hybrid cars from a safety point of view. > >Would you want to be cutting into a car with the Jaws of Life >knowing that somewhere in the twisted wreckage is a 400S-20P Thunder >Power LiPo?? Even if the batts are A123's, you still have some very >large current carrying wires flopping around somewhere. > >But hey, we're in a planetary emergency, right?? > > > >_______________________________________________ >NSRCA-discussion mailing list >NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -->There are only two types of aircraft -- fighters and targets. Phil Spelt, Webmaster & Past President, Knox County Radio Control Society, Inc. URL: http://www.kcrctn.com AMA--1294, Scientific Leader Member, SPA--177 My URL: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/~chuenkan/ (865) 435-1476 v (865) 604-0541 c -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rcmaster199 at aol.com Tue Mar 31 09:18:05 2009 From: rcmaster199 at aol.com (rcmaster199 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 17:18:05 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] USA CIAM Representative? In-Reply-To: <5C65FA7605664EDCA97A7FC797E38F30@Tony> References: <5C65FA7605664EDCA97A7FC797E38F30@Tony> Message-ID: <8CB803BB904A402-FCC-A9@mblk-d26.sysops.aol.com> Thanks Tony.... Derek is as fine a choice as we have available. I am certain he will do a great job representing all of us who compete at the F3A level Matt Kebabjian -----Original Message----- From: Tony To: 'General pattern discussion' Sent: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 10:02 am Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] USA CIAM Representative? As the AMA District V Vice-President, I can shed light on this subject. Due to the lack of participation in F3A at any level, I questioned why Chris Lakin was the USA representative to the CIAM. One of the main reasons that Chris took the position years ago was due to the fact that Ron Chidgey, long time CIAM chairman, was retiring from active participation in F3A and the CIAM. Chris pushed to get someone on the CIAM that was active, and was able to convince AMA President Dave Brown to appoint him. This position is filled by appointment from the AMA President. Chris has not been active for many years now, and I have always felt that we should keep active people in this position. The result is that the NSRCA has not been kept up to date with F3A happenings, nor have they had a representative voice on the CIAM. For those reasons, I questioned Dave Mathewson about this position. Dave agreed and the NSRCA was asked for a recommendation. Derek responded to Dave Mathewson with a couple of letters. One said that the NSRCA Board was looking at candidates and would make a final vote and recommendation to AMA. The result of the vote was that Derek was elected and his name was submitted to Dave Mathewson for appointment to USA CIAM representative for F3A. Dave agreed and appointed Derek. I don't know all the details of the NSRCA Board work to get to this point. AMA feels strongly that the SIG's should have a strong voice in who represents them, and I agree with that. Who better to speak on behalf of pattern than someone that is recommended by the Pattern SIG? I think Derek is a GREAT choice and he has already shown he can do the job by winning the USA bid for the F3A World Champs! I have been involved with WC before, and I know the amount of work involved. Derek is up to the task, and I believe that we have a great group of people in NSRCA that are more than willing to step up and not only make it happen, but do it with class and style so that the world will see why the USA is a haven for aerobatics! Anyway, I hope this helps everyone to understand. At least in the case of Dave Mathewson, choices that are made for these positions are done with the recommendation of the concerned SIG taken into consideration. Tony Stillman, President Radio South, Inc. 139 Altama Connector, Box 322 Brunswick, GA 31525 1-800-962-7802 www.radiosouthrc.com -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Earl Haury Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 7:58 AM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] USA CIAM Representative? Rusty I agree with Ron, selecting the US CIAM Fxx Technical Subcommittee reps is the responsibility of the AMA. Their process has not been obvious in years past, but understand that there are very few qualified folks who are willing to serve. Also there is no term limit attached to the job, so the selection of a new rep occurs infrequently. This is actually a good thing in that the rules cycles cover four years and it takes time to develop respect / relationships so as to be effective in the committee. I've been involved with F3A competition since 1979 and am only aware of Ron Chidgey and Chris Lakin holding the F3A job (Steve Helms was appointed interim rep to replace Ron until Chris accepted the job). I find it refreshing that the AMA sought recommendations from the NSRCA for a successor to Chris. It is an important job and US members have contributed immensely to what pattern is today through participation and innovation as members / leaders of the F3A subcommittees and the CIAM. Check http://www.fai.org/aeromodelling/ then "Official" to view the folks currently involved. Unfortunately, there is no requirement that our reps report back to the US pattern community directly - nor have they been required to seek advice regarding the community's wishes. As we've enjoyed very qualified, experienced, respected (by the world pattern community) reps, their actions have been in the best interest (IMHO) of pattern and the US pattern community. The lack of a reporting has let to misunderstanding of the influence and results provided by the US reps. The AMA's action of seeking input from the NSRCA for recommendations for the job speaks of the respect that the AMA has for the current NSRCA. The action of the NSRCA in taking the imitative to obtain and host the 2011 WC likely enhanced this respect. While the NSRCA has no "control" over the F3A rep, we certainly provide an opportunity for Derek to keep us apprised of subcommittee workings via the K-Factor and website / list. I look forward to the timely transfer of info and activities and I'm sure Derek will consider feedback as well. Maybe the NSRCA should develop a formal process for selecting the best candidate for the F3A rep job. This was the first time that we were ask to participate. The board members from each district sought candidates and solicited resumes. They voted for their preference. I'm proud to have been considered and consider it a job well done. Earl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Van Putte" To: "General pattern discussion" Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:47 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] USA CIAM Representative? > Rather than have any NSRCA representative attempt to describe what AMA's > CIAM representative selection process is, my suggestion is that you > contact AMA through your district VP or AVPs and ask them what their > process is. > > Ron Van Putte > > On Mar 30, 2009, at 10:03 PM, Ali Dose wrote: > >> Mr. Van Putte, >> >> I appreciate your response and "clearing up" the NSRCA's ability to >> "recommend" an individual to the AMA. Does the AMA accept input from >> others as well? >> >> Is it reasonable to assume that there exists some kind of process, >> albeit rather informal, that the AMA communicates to the appropriate >> special interest group board (NSRCA in this case) seeking/asking/has an >> interest in/give us a few names of... e >> individuals who have the qualifications to be the single most important >> individual representing the USA precision aerobatic collective? If they >> do, could the NSRCA Board "share" this with the members? >> >> Even if one were to "diminish" the precision aerobatic's collective >> interest in the position as not that interesting...and assuming that the >> leader's of the special interest group recognized the fantastic >> opportunity to communicate the position, articulate the potential the >> candidate could provide to the precision aerobatic collective, create >> enthusiasm and support/cooperation to get stuff done in the future...The >> position could be posted on this thread (I am a big moron it it was >> posted here) in the K-Factor (I am a bigger moron if it was posted >> there)? >> >> Once again, Derek is a fine individual. >> >> I am requesting the "behind the scenes" process, to insure that in the >> future, every candidate who is qualified, experienced, passionate about >> radio control precision aerobatics has the same opportunity to learn, >> prepare for and be apart of the USA CIAM representative selection >> process. >> >> "...Done Deal..." is not a specific enough answer for me. >> >> This thread may not be the most appropriate venue to discuss and may be >> reached at my office (312) 580-6838, or this e-mail. >> >> Rusty Dose >> Thrilled for Derek >> Thrilled for the 2011 World Champs in Muncie >> Dedicated to all the fine modelers "not always included" >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Van Putte" >> To: "General pattern discussion" >> Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:51 PM >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] USA CIAM Representative? >> >> >>> Well, the first thing we need to get cleared up is that the position >>> of CIAM representative is an AMA position. NSRCA does not have >>> anything more than the ability to recommend an individual. Ryan Smith >>> explained what went on there, so I won't repeat what he wrote. AMA >>> accepted the recommendation of Derek as the CIAM representative. Done >>> deal. >>> >>> Ron Van Putte >>> >>> On Mar 26, 2009, at 8:35 PM, Ali Dose wrote: >>> >>>> I learned yesterday that "we" have a new CIAM representative, Derek >>>> Koopowitz, who has replaced Chris Lakin. Apparently, congratulations >>>> to Derek. >>>> >>>> How is the individual selected? >>>> Who is on the nominating Committee? >>>> Is there such a committee? >>>> How are the candidates views and opinions communicated? >>>> Who votes? >>>> Is the NSRCA, as the AMA's FAI F3A special interest group, >>>> responsible for the process and then an AMA official, after careful >>>> consideration and review "rubber stamps" the submission? >>>> Did I need to have a FAI stamp to participate? >>>> Am I the last to know? >>>> >>>> Derek is a fine choice AND there are also a bunch of others who, I >>>> hope, were considered and reviewed... >>>> >>>> who have made significant contributions to the sport on the local, >>>> regional and national levels, have significant leadership experience, >>>> have attended numerous FAI F3A World Championships as a Team member >>>> or Manager or Team volunteer, have been involved at the highest >>>> levels and ample amounts of time to focus on the role without >>>> distration or other responsibilities... >>>> >>>> who also would make excellent contributions and continue the >>>> traditions of excellence of our current and past CIAM representatives. >>>> >>>> >>>> Respectfully, >>>> >>>> Rusty Dose >>>> Past NSRCA Treasurer >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion From HankPajari at aol.com Tue Mar 31 09:21:35 2009 From: HankPajari at aol.com (HankPajari at aol.com) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 17:21:35 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Futaba 9Z Transmitter Battery Message-ID: I have replaced mine a couple of times. Very easy. I use _http://www.hangtimes.com/index.html_ (http://www.hangtimes.com/index.html) Tell them you are looking to replace 9Z batteries and they will send you the right pack. You can choose from nicad or nimh. Hank In a message dated 3/30/2009 7:40:49 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, wnasse at telus.net writes: BlankMy 9Z transmitter battery is in need of replacement. Would there be a problem replacing the batteries inside the plastic case with a matched pack sold at the local hobby store and soldered to the connector? Any other suggestions? Thanks in advance Walter No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.28 - Release Date: 3/25/2009 12:00 AM _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1220439616x1201372437/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID %3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 31 10:05:00 2009 From: homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com (krishlan fitzsimmons) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:05:00 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol Message-ID: <444509.33507.qm@web33007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Well said and excellent point Bob!! If the throttle were to stick open, I guess one could turn the key off like in a gas powered vehicle. But what if that failed? How do you disarm it unless the thought was put into it ahead of time? I would assume that they would have already thought of running the main lines down the center of the car. I seriously doubt they would run them through the door posts, or roof of the car. Another thing is safety of the batteries in an accident. Could they put the batteries in a fire proof area? Oxygen free perhaps? Heck, I'm sure they could figure a way to make them survive a crash. Look at the Flight Data Recorders in planes. They usually survive. Of course, anything can happen. Batteries are dangerous, no doubt. But so is a full tank of gas. Chris ? ? ? --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Bob Richards wrote: From: Bob Richards Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] For Electric eyes only.. lol To: "General pattern discussion" Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 4:57 AM It is human nature for one to fear what one does not understand. This is new stuff. There are lots of horror stories. As soon as there is some understanding of what is involved, and perhaps some standards or conventions about cable placement (aka "fuel lines") battery placement (aka "fuel tank") then I don't think there will be any more fear than cutting into a conventional vehicle. Everyone knows there are not fuel lines running in the door posts - safe to cut there, etc. (Unless, of course, you happen upon one of Junior Johnson's old race cars - there might be some nitrous oxide inside the roll cage)? ;-) ? I think the bigger fear should be how to disarm an electric vehicle. Same as with our airplanes, just because the prop is not turning does not mean it isn't armed! ? Bob R. --- On Mon, 3/30/09, Jay Marshall wrote: What about fuel lines? Or a hydrogen tank? ? Jay Marshall -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Keith Hoard ? I was talking to a fireman a few days ago. . . . they are very nervous about electric / hybrid cars from a safety point of view.? Would you want to be cutting into a car with the Jaws of Life knowing that somewhere in the twisted wreckage is a 400S-20P Thunder Power LiPo??? Even if the batts are A123's, you still have some very large current carrying wires flopping around somewhere. But hey, we're in a planetary emergency, right?? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From derekkoopowitz at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 10:06:39 2009 From: derekkoopowitz at gmail.com (Derek Koopowitz) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:06:39 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] F3A Discussion List Message-ID: <3454543c0903311106m42f7f6lb92caa2757b59545@mail.gmail.com> As Earl alluded to in his post, there has generally been little to no discussion on F3A matters at the international level. I asked Tom Simes to create a discussion list for us so that we can use this list to discuss relevant items that affect F3A in the USA. I will use this list to disseminate information that I get from the CIAM and the F3A sub-committee, and I would also like to use the list to discuss potential rules/sequence changes and also any concerns that we (US F3A pilots) may have with the current set of rules. To subscribe to the list please go to: http://lists.f3a.us/mailman/listinfo/f3a-discussion My preference is that only US F3A pilots participate in the discussion but I'm certainly not going to limit the membership to just US participants - any/all input is welcome and I will do my best to ensure that your input is shared at the international level. I would also encourage everyone that does participate to familiarize themselves with the current set of F3A rules. As always I will post any documents I receive from the CIAM that pertains to F3A on the NSRCA website - there currently are some rules proposals that are posted that I will remove since these were voted on at the just held CIAM meeting. I'll post the results of those votes in the next few days on this list. -Derek -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billglaze at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 31 15:26:43 2009 From: billglaze at bellsouth.net (billglaze) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 23:26:43 -0000 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Barbeque Message-ID: <000b01c9b258$249795b0$6101a8c0@glazep4xpcst> To Buff Miller, and Marvin Marozas: Fran and I would like to thank you for the kind invitation to your (as always) excellent Annual Barbeque. We were, of course, happy to accept. Your idea to hold it at Green Sea Airport was, as usual, an excellent choice of venue, due in no small measure to the beautiful surroundings. Your suggestion to us to "be sure and bring a pattern airplane" proved to be excellent advice. I felt it would be an advantage to be able to fly, while the smell of the roasting pork kept us hungry all day, and waiting for the evening feast. Thanks also for the great lunch while we were waiting expectantly for dinner. While we anticipated that we certainly wouldn't be the only guests invited, we surely were pleasantly surprised to see a great many pattern flyers of our friendship and acquaintance, whose presence we had missed sorely over the winter. What an added pleasure! Then, imagine our surprise when, on Saturday morning, you and Marvin announced that, along with the great barbeque, you were also going to hold a Pattern Contest! Talk about putting the cherry on top of the Sundae! Once again, you have given a great occasion to us all, and we are looking forward to many more of these festive gatherings! Thanks for your consideration, and efforts. Our appreciation goes out to you and all involved in this endeavor. Bill and Fran Glaze -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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