[NSRCA-discussion] FW: nats format

Thu Jul 30 23:30:42 AKDT 2009

I don't think the weight (personnel) issue is a big deal. So we do it on Tuesday. FAI- Advanced weight opposite of when they fly, Masters-Intermediate weigh opposite of when they fly. We have one person weighing, one person measuring. Or maybe one person can do both. Should be easy to handle if everyone has to bring their plane, and batteries to the garage, get weighed, measured, get some type of weight sticker on your plane, and some type of weight band on your batteries. 

Now let me ask this. There is no rule that I am aware of that says I can't put a full tank of fuel in my electric right on windy days? 

Chris          

--- On Thu, 7/30/09, Glen Watson <ghwatson at comcast.net> wrote:

From: Glen Watson <ghwatson at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: nats format
To: "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 11:04 AM

In the past AMA was successful in obtaining volunteers from the surrounding
community, elderly, girl/boy scouts, etc.  Couldn't these types of
volunteers perform admin functions of the weights and measure process?  This
would also be a great time to get an equipment list survey filled out maybe
even a contestant photos...

~Glen W
2009 no show who failed to contact Dave G -- please accept my apology

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ron Van Putte
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 12:20 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: nats format

Two minutes per airplane may result in a job five hours long.  The  
other half of the equation is that assigning several pilots to do the  
job means that they wouldn't have to judge, depleting the judging  
pool.  We had several individuals who did a LOT of judging this  
year.  Dave Guerin was pulling his hair out, until the volunteers  
came up to offer to do extra judging sessions.

Ron VP

On Jul 30, 2009, at 12:01 PM, Archie Stafford wrote:

> I think that part is easy. Dont give them a choice. It becomes part  
> of what is required. If everyone starts early it wouldnt be that  
> bad. Only takes a max of 2-3 minutes a plane.
>
> Arch
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 30, 2009, at 11:57 AM, Ron Van Putte <vanputte at cox.net> wrote:
>
>> If all airplanes that compete will be weighed/measured on the day  
>> of checkin, there had better be a non-flying group to do the job.   
>> Competitors are not likely to be willing to spend the whole day  
>> weighing/measuring up to 150 airplanes (many pilots have backup  
>> airplanes) when they could be out practicing.
>>
>> Ron VP
>> .
>> On Jul 30, 2009, at 8:32 AM, Derek Koopowitz wrote:
>>
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for responding.  The board discussed a lot of these ideas  
>>> the week after the Nats and we've been working on a list of stuff  
>>> that we're going to ask Dave to implement next year.  Pretty much  
>>> what you've outlined below is in that list with some variations.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We're also going to fully enforce weight/size on all planes that  
>>> compete - everyone will be weighed and measured on the day of  
>>> check-in - each plane will be "stickered" as they qualify and if  
>>> anyone fails to make weight or size then they'll have the whole  
>>> day on check-in day to make modifications but will need to be  
>>> weighed and measured again before the check-in period ends (and  
>>> pass) before they'll be allowed to fly.  Random weight checks  
>>> will also be made throughout the event (random process to be  
>>> determined later).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -Derek
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca- 
>>> discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of michael s harrison
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 5:30 AM
>>> To: 'General pattern discussion'
>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: nats format
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: michael s harrison [mailto:drmikedds at sbcglobal.net]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 3:45 PM
>>> To: 'Don Ramsey'
>>> Subject: nats format
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> After considerable thought and reflection, I would like to share  
>>> my views of the nats and the classes flown.  I believe we have  
>>> been very fortunate to have an excellent group of volunteers that  
>>> work and sacrifice to make the nats happen.  That group is led by  
>>> the event director Dave Guerin, who has worked tirelessly and  
>>> unselfishly for years at this job.  I believe he has responded to  
>>> our desires to make this the best national event possible.  With  
>>> that in mind, there are some changes I believe we can make that  
>>> would be a win-win for everyone and reduce the workload as well.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> They are:
>>>
>>> 1.       Have a finals for advanced
>>>
>>> a.       8 finalists
>>>
>>> b.      3 rounds
>>>
>>> c.       Judged by advanced or intermediate judges(qualified  
>>> volunteers)
>>>
>>> d.      The site is open so it is not a space issue
>>>
>>> e.      24 flights would take app 3 hours
>>>
>>> f.        Do on 4th day
>>>
>>> g.       Count the prelims as a 1000 normalized score
>>>
>>> h.      Count 3 of 4 scores for the winner
>>>
>>> 2.       Modify masters accordingly
>>>
>>> a.       3 round finals
>>>
>>> b.      Count prelims as a 1000 normalized score
>>>
>>> c.       Count 3 of 4 for the winner
>>>
>>> d.      10 finalists
>>>
>>> e.      30 flights about 5.5 hours
>>>
>>> 3.       Fai
>>>
>>> a.       3 rounds final
>>>
>>> b.      F-11 flown 1 time
>>>
>>> c.       Each unknown(1&2) flown once
>>>
>>> d.      Count the semi-final F-11 scores only as a single 1000  
>>> normalized score
>>>
>>> e.      Count 3 of 4 for the winner
>>>
>>> f.        10 finalists
>>>
>>> g.       30 flights about 5.5 hours
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Rationale behind changes:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Advanced
>>>
>>> This would make for a very exciting and fun event for the  
>>> advanced class.  It would make the 4th day a very real part of  
>>> the nats for them.  This format is totally self contained with no  
>>> additional personnel required.  It could be started and finished  
>>> before the masters and fai is done.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Masters
>>>
>>> Masters is in a real sense an endurance contest.  How many times  
>>> does someone have to fly the same sequence to prove he is the  
>>> best in that class.  The present system is 10 times!  The only  
>>> argument is the equal exposure issue-which may have merit.   The  
>>> system I propose addresses that issue and takes less time.  I  
>>> raised the number of finalists to 10 to close the argument that  
>>> someone is cutout of the finals because of unequal exposure.   
>>> Counting the prelim as one of the 4 scores is, in my opinion a  
>>> legitimate score to keep-having been earned over a period of 3  
>>> days under a number of variables.  Assuming incorrect scoring 
>>> (bias, unequal exposure, etc.), the competitor has 3 flights to  
>>> erase that concern.  Any 3 flights count so the prelims score can  
>>> be dropped.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> FAI
>>>
>>> The argument for doing 2 Finals pattern is that at the world  
>>> event in the semifinals, there is not equal exposure of the  
>>> pilots and the pool is so large that conditions can change  
>>> substantially over the course of doing the semifinals.  This  
>>> rationale wouldn't apply at the nats.  The semifinals at the nats  
>>> is only 2 flights with 20 pilots, using the prelim score as a  
>>> 1000 normalized score.  Therefore, the 2 F patterns can be  
>>> combined to be a score carried over into the finals event.  The  
>>> finals then becomes a single F pattern and 2 unknowns.  Count 3  
>>> of 4 scores.   I would recommend doing the F schedule first, then  
>>> the 2 unknowns.  I believe all the other pilots would love to see  
>>> FAI unknown finals flown by some of the best pilots in the world.  
>>> It would be a showcase event.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To conclude:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I believe this is a win-win for everyone.  We would add finals to  
>>> advanced; both the Masters and FAI finals would be shortened; the  
>>> best pilots would be showcased; more pilots would be in the  
>>> finals; fewer personnel to do the finals.
>>>
>>> There is no perfect system.  I am sure there will be objections  
>>> of some kind, but I believe this system has real merit and should  
>>> be implemented.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Respectfully
>>>
>>> Mike Harrison
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
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