[NSRCA-discussion] FW: nats format

Thu Jul 30 05:59:58 AKDT 2009

Mark,
I tend to agree with you, except on the posting of scores.  The AMA 
General Competition regulations require the following:

"8. Review of Scores: It is mandatory that all contestants of Class AA, 
AAA, and AAAA meets who desire to do so be permitted to review their 
detailed score sheet (e.g., in CL Aerobatics, the score for each 
maneuver; in Scale, the score for each characteristic judged, whether 
of a static or in-flight nature; in Navy Carrier, the scores for high 
speed, low speed, landing, and bonus) for each flight prior to 
attempting any subsequent flight(s) and in all instances prior to 
announcement of winners and awarding of prizes. It is recommended that 
the contestant be provided with a carbon copy of the actual score sheet 
for the purpose of complying with this regulation. Neither the 
contestant nor anyone representing him shall talk to an Event Judge 
regarding any contestant‟s score during the contest, unless Judge and 
Event or Contest Director is the same person. All questions regarding 
the score sheet are to be asked of the Director. Violations of this 
rule are sufficient cause for flight or entry disqualification. While 
errors in score computation shall be corrected, at no time shall the 
number of points awarded for an individual maneuver or characteristic 
be altered."

Since individual score sheets MUST be available to pilots (to INCLUDE 
the last round), there is little point in not pos
ting the scores since 
pilots compare notes anyway.  I've had to "remind" a few CDs of this 
rule.  Many people just read the RC aerobatics rules and forget about 
the Generals.  I've never understood the "suspense" of not posting the 
last round results anyway.

Jon Lowe

-----Original Message-----
From: Atwood, Mark <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Thu, Jul 30, 2009 8:29 am
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: nats format

There in lies the rub.

I think MANY would stay if there was a reason to stay.  
I’d love to see the Nat’s start on a Wed, and finish on Saturday (I
know…the AMA dictates the schedule), but that would take some of the 
job/vacation
pressure off trying to get home right away.

If day 3 scores were NOT posted (‘cept to announce the
finalists…and that would just be names, not scores), and there was a
serious “event” following Finals day, I think MANY would stay as
that would end the Nationals for everyone.

The Final evening would be a party.  Dinner, awards,
raffle, etc.  No one needs to practice, everyone leaves town in the
morning. 

As it st
ands now, we all depart over a period of 3 days. 
FAI starts to depart on day 2 if we miss the semi-finals.  Int/Adv all
leave on day 3 along with FAI and Masters that miss the cut, the 
finalists
depart either on Day 4, or many stay the night and leave on day 5.

In addition to not having any real celebration (especially for
the winners) we also lose all of our help.  Both formal and
informal.  Yes, we’re low on judges, but pilots lose their callers
and helpers. 

If a LOT of people needed to stay (those involved in the finals,
flying, judging, scoring, helping with the banquet, whatever) even more 
people
would stay to participate.  And you would simply plan for it.  The
Nats would be thought of as a 4 day event and people would schedule
that.   As it stands now, it varies based on how well you fly.

From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John
Konneker

Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 8:56 AM

To: Discussion List

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: nats format

Good
ideas!

I've flown both Intermediate and Advanced at the Nats and I like the 
idea of a
finals added for those two=2
0classes...

a lot!

I also like the idea of having the banquet at the end of the
Nats.  It really would be a party then!

;-)

To play the devil's advocate...

How many more than the final eight for those classes would stay for 
that last
evening?

JLK

------------------------------------------------------------

From: atwoodm at paragon-inc.com

To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 08:39:21 -0400

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: nats format

I’ll let other chime in on the masters /FAI stuff, but
I’d like to add to Mikes comment on Advanced and say we should add both
an Advanced Finals, as well as an Intermediate Finals.  Reduce the
finalists to 8, and you’ll have time to fit both in on Site 4 on Finals
day.    All the same motivations, and it keeps more people around
for the last day. 

I’d really like to see ALL classes finish up on the same
day.   IF that day can be a Friday, or a Saturday…I’d
like to see the Banquet CLOSE the event rather than be in the middle.

I think it would be great if every planned to stay that last day
to see everyone fly, to help with the final judging, and have a party 
at the
end to celebrate everyone’s success.C2

As it stands now, the only consolidated social event comes on
the evening that everyone is MOST concerned about getting in a few 
rounds of
practice.  We’re forced to choose between spending quality time with
friends we only get to see once a year, or practicing to do our best in 
THE
competition of the year that we’ve spent all year prepping for.  For
FAI, it’s getting a flight or two up on the F pattern.  In the other
classes…it’s your last chance to make the finals.

It’s a little messed up.

Thoughts??

-Mark

From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of michael s
harrison

Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 8:30 AM

To: 'General pattern discussion'

Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: nats format

From: michael s harrison
[mailto:drmikedds at sbcglobal.net]

Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 3:45 PM

To: 'Don Ramsey'

Subject: nats format

After
considerable thought and reflection, I would like to share my views of 
the nats
and the classes fl
own.  I believe we have been very fortunate to have an
excellent group of volunteers that work and sacrifice to make the nats 
happen. 
That group is led by the event director Dave Guerin, who has worked 
tirelessly
and unselfishly for years at this job.  I believe he has responded to 
our
desires to make this the best national event possible.  With that in 
mind,
there are some changes I believe we can make that would be a win-win for
everyone and reduce the workload as well.

They
are:

1.      
Have a
finals for advanced

a.       8 finalists

b.      3 rounds

c.       Judged by advanced
or intermediate judges(qualified volunteers)

d.      The site is open so
it is not a space issue

e.      24 flights would
take app 3 hours

f.        Do on 4th
day

g.       Count the prelims
as a 1000 normalized score

h.      Count 3 of 4 scores
for the winner

2.      
Modify
masters accordingly

a.       3 round finals

b.      Count prelims as a
1000 normalized score

=0
D

c.       Count 3 of 4 for
the winner

d.      10 finalists

e.      30 flights about
5.5 hours

3.      
Fai

a.       3 rounds final

b.      F-11 flown 1 time

c.       Each
unknown(1&2) flown once

d.      Count the
semi-final F-11 scores only as a single 1000 normalized score

e.      Count 3 of 4 for
the winner

f.        10 finalists

g.       30 flights about
5.5 hours

Rationale
behind changes:

Advanced

This
would make for a very exciting and fun event for the advanced class.  It
would make the 4th day a very real part of the nats for them. 
This format is totally self contained with no additional personnel
required.  It could be started and finished before the masters and fai 
is
done. 

Masters

Masters
is in a real sense an endurance contest.  How many times does someone 
have
to fly the same sequence to prove he is the best in that class.  The
present system is 10 times!  The only argument
 is the equal exposure
issue-which may have merit.   The system I propose addresses that
issue and takes less time.  I raised the number of finalists to 10 to
close the argument that someone is cutout of the finals because of 
unequal
exposure.  Counting the prelim as one of the 4 scores is, in my opinion 
a
legitimate score to keep-having been earned over a period of 3 days 
under a
number of variables.  Assuming incorrect scoring(bias, unequal exposure,
etc.), the competitor has 3 flights to erase that concern.  Any 3 
flights
count so the prelims score can be dropped. 

FAI

The
argument for doing 2 Finals pattern is that at the world event in the
semifinals, there is not equal exposure of the pilots and the pool is 
so large
that conditions can change substantially over the course of doing the
semifinals.  This rationale wouldn’t apply at the nats.  The
semifinals at the nats is only 2 flights with 20 pilots, using the 
prelim score
as a 1000 normalized score.  Therefore, the 2 F patterns can be combined
to be a score carried over into the finals event.  The finals then 
becomes
a single F pattern and 2 unknowns.  Count 3 of 4 scores.   I
would recommend doing the F schedule first, then the 2 unknowns.  I 
believe
all the other pilots would love to see FAI unknown finals flown by some 
of the
best
 pilots in the world. It would be a showcase event. 

To
conclude:

I
believe this is a win-win for everyone.  We would add finals to 
advanced;
both the Masters and FAI finals would be shortened; the best pilots 
would be
showcased; more pilots would be in the finals; fewer personnel to do the
finals. 

There
is no perfect system.  I am sure there will be objections of some kind,
but I believe this system has real merit and should be implemented.

Respectfully

Mike
Harrison

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