[NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern

Fri Jan 30 13:11:59 AKST 2009

Lots of great thoughts in this discussion and I've only been able to read some, so if I duplicate or plagiarize someone, please accept my apologies in advance.

When I first wanted to begin flying some sort of precision aerobatics, I went IMAC. I had a local group of guys flying it, so I wanted to do what my flying buddies were doing. Unfortunately, most of them dropped out of the hobby due to various reasons, and I quickly found that yearly there was only 1 IMAC competition within 4 hours of my home (that has since changed, and there are now 2). As a result, my IMAC bird has never been flown in competition. 

I then found that there were several pattern flyers in my local area (AC and Al Glenn, Keith Hoard, etc) and I found that there are at least 4 NSRCA competitions within 4 hours of my home. Since then I've been flying pattern. Having people to be mentored by and people to practice with, along with a competition in which to actually compete makes a big difference. 

I think, much of this whole discussion is a psuedo 'chicken or the egg' discussion. 

Without competitors, you won't have contests. No contests means you won't have many competitors. 

Relatively small market (few pattern pilots) means big manufacturers won't introduce affordable designs (volume aids affordability immensely). And few available, affordable designs means fewer people might take up flying pattern. 

Only two things will break those cycles - special attraction, or superhuman efforts (those who do it for the love of it). 

IMAC has that 'special attraction' because of the scale nature of their airplanes and the wider versatility of their airplanes (when is the last time you saw someone 'hucking' their Euphoria). Many people own IMAC capable airplanes, but don't fly IMAC. Most people would percieve that few people own pattern capable airplanes that don't also compete with them. 

IMAC also has some superhuman efforts out there, IE people who host competitions just for the sake of doing it. Oftentimes a competition held simply because of someone's love of the sport grows to become a much bigger competition over time and aids in the growth of that form of competition in that local area.The Glenn's and I did much the same with the Memphis Indoor Pattern competition this year. None of us were going to get rich running that event. We simply love Indoor Pattern and would love to see it grow - so we hosted a contest. 

So what to do......?

If you love pattern, host a contest. 
If you love pattern, help someone attend/participate in a contest.
Help someone understand that a $XXXX ship is not necessary to compete with. 
Mentor someone at your field.

From: billglaze at bellsouth.netTo: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.orgDate: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:10:58 -0500Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern
Also, Ed, you'll remember when we served together, ALL the classes were regarded equally, all receiving new sequences on a regular basis; not just the Unlimited contestants..  Bill Glaze

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Ed Alt 
To: homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com ; General pattern discussion ; jpavlick at idseng.com 
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 9:12 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern

I think that a lot of the appeal of IMAC is due to the airplanes that are available.  Another factor that has appeal is that sequences are different every year, and also, the unknown sequences at most every contest is popular as well.  I flew nothing but IMAC from '97 through '03 and it was fun while it lasted.  After a while, I couldn't live with the changes they were making and I ended up here.  Both IMAC and Pattern have been great fun and great learning experiences, but I do have to say that I have learned more in Pattern overall.  I also enjoy it more.

I think maybe it boils down to a few subtle things that are just different in people.  I am pretty much a purist, and what drove me away from IMAC was when they ditched the aerobatic box (except in theory), when they decided that factoring centering into scoring was unfair, and when they purposely added subjective scoring.  It just grated at me and I knew I could not enjoy it any longer after they did that.  Pattern isn't like that, and that's why I like it so much better.  It allows me to tolerate the idiosyncrasies of glow vs. gas, allows me to put up with not being able to see a smaller model as well, but I do it because I like the way the event is structured.  There are great people and good friends in both events, but I do what I do because it fits me better.  We can tweak our website and restructure our publication, and it's all good stuff, but at the end of the day, you're going to do what you do because it fits you best.  My $.02 FWIW.

Ed

----- Original Message ----- 
From: krishlan fitzsimmons 
To: General pattern discussion ; jpavlick at idseng.com 
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern

Well said John.. On another note, didn't this start out as a "please take an online vote" email.On even another note, Imac is a different bird. More people may be interested in flying IMAC IMO because there is the freestyle. Foamies have made a great impact so that anyone can huck in their front yards. Kids are really into the foamies and the freestyles because they are fun, and impressive. We lack this fun type of flying in their minds. (Not to me, 3d is somewhat boring to me, except for foamies)As someone stated earlier, pattern doesn't have the market flooded with $400-500 arfs that almost every person at my field and other fields locally have. If we did, I know of many people at my field that would buy one. They have told me so. Every time I bring a new plane to the field, people ask me how much, and where can they get one. When I tell em how much, their face drops...Wanna grow pattern, do something like Hester. He's on the right track IMO. Look at all the ads in the larger magazines, how many pattern planes do you see in those ads? 
Chris 

 --- On Thu, 1/29/09, John Pavlick <jpavlick at idseng.com> wrote:
From: John Pavlick <jpavlick at idseng.com>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow PatternTo: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>Date: Thursday, January 29, 2009, 7:01 AM

Jim,
 Interesting observations. In my neck of the woods (Connecticut) there is almost NO IMAC or Pattern competition so I don't see any of this. Part of the reason for that is that it's hard to find large, open areas where you're allowed to fly model airplanes. Let alone have an organized contest. My state pretty much sucks in that regard. There sems to be plenty of room for shopping centers and "retirement communities" however.

Even with these restrictions, I've managed to enlighten a few people and make them aware of Precision Aerobatics. By this I mean IMAC AND Pattern. Some people just don't want to fly Pattern, whereas others simply don't want to fly IMAC. That's fine as far as I'm concerned but the point is they need to know about them. That's where I think Patttern and the NSRCA suffers the most. People simply don't know that we exist. We need to increase our visibility if we want to attract new members. We DON'T need to change anything with how we fly, how we judge, etc. At least not to attract new people. All we need to do is let them know we're here and that they can fly with us if they want to. No pressure to join. Just take your basic sport model to a contest and fly a few rounds in Sportsman. Don't buy a new radio or airplane. Don't worry about the weight or size. Just show up. If we want to grow Patttern, that's one of the things that we need to do. If printed copies of the K-Factor at local hobby shops will help with that cause (it just might), then send me a box so I can drop them off. :)

John Pavlick

BTW - I actually did learn about the NSRCA through the K-Factor after a club member handed me a copy that he picked up somewhere. Once I knew that Patttern was still alive in my area (I had taken a LONG hiatus) I built a new airplane, started going to contests and joined the NSRCA.

--- On Thu, 1/29/09, Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <jim.woodward at baesystems.com> wrote:
From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <jim.woodward at baesystems.com>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor PollTo: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>Date: Thursday, January 29, 2009, 2:16 PM

JN – there is more to the comparison of IMAC/Pattern than the traceable history to the TOC or available ARF scenario.  I think Jay hit on it something important other day stating something to the effect that, “… if you are not in FAI or Masters you are left on your own.”  (forgive me if it wasn’t Jay or I misquoted).  Pattern and IMAC are totally different in many ways and being that I’m involved in the District/Leadership of each, I’ll list a few in no particular order:
1.       Basic, Sportsman, Intermediate in IMAC:  in a 50 person contest, there are 5 Unlimited, 5 Advanced, and 40 persons spread almost equally between the lower classes
2.       Sportsman, Intermediate, Advanced in Pattern: In a 20 person contest, maybe 3-4 FAI, 7-10 Masters, 8-10 spread between lower classes. 
3.       R/C Clubs view holding an IMAC Contest as a money-making event.  Not so sure for the pattern event. 
4.       Not such a rush to move up in classes in IMAC:  IMAC changes sequences yearly and has unknowns flown each contest, all classes except for Basic.  IMAC classes get harder in a hurry.  For instance the intermediate class will have a 90 degree rolling turn in it and numerous snaps rolls, also a spin.   There is no mercy on unknowns… sometimes they are more difficult than the normal sequence, sometimes easier, sometimes just different.  There is not an expectation that all pilots will reach the “destination” class.  There is no destination class in IMAC.  
5.       Piloting differences?  I find the average IMAC pilot is a fairly high skilled R/C pilot that is learning the precision side of things. You might watch a OK sequence, but later in the evening see them throwing it down on the deck in aggressive Freestyle most of us would dare try.  The Pattern guys grow-up precision and can fly a higher scoring stall turn and have better sequence-fundamentals (and positioning), but lack in some of the other R/C roundness. 
6.       The IMAC ranks have a lot of guys “who used to fly pattern” in them.  I’ve heard it all as to why they stopped flying pattern and here it is (believe me or not , up to you): 
a.       Pattern is too political at the top 
b.      Feeling of Topped out – it didn’t matter how much I practiced, I couldn’t improve my scores or beat that one guy 
c.       Best flights aren’t winning rounds 
d.      Didn’t fit in 
e.      These are opinions range from normal pilots, to “top guys” that only fly IMAC now 
7.       Flying/Positioning – I love the pattern way of flying in a box, with a centerpole – I FREAKIN-HATE the IMAC way of writing sequences with “sort of left, sort of right” maneuvers.  I understand why it is done and such, but I’d take the box anyday.  Flying the box in pattern is its “own-significant-difficulty” which makes the less complex maneuvers harder to do.  The IMAC way lets them “load-up” each maneuver into a super-complex deal – very hard to score well I may add too.  However, its all part of the pie. 
8.       Winning?  In pattern, a win means you flew the sequences the best.  This is cool because often you can “beat” a better pilot, by flying the maneuver you need to know how to do better than the other guys.  In IMAC, usually the “best” pilots wins, because it is a combination of flying the known and unknown. 
9.       Planes?  Pattern planes fly the best, but are harder to fly well.  Pattern planes are less affected by small changes in atmospheric conditions, or good/bad engine days – IE  -- you almost always have enough power in a pattern plane regardless of sequence flown.  IMAC  - totally different.  Humidity (specifically), can DRASTICALLY affect the speed of your plane.  Power requirements change hugely with sequence/class changes.  For instance, unlimited need a truly unlimited power setup.  Not so easy to move up without changing equipment.  A 40% plane is easier to fly “wings-level”, but the judging penalties are 0.5 point per 5 degrees, instead of 1 point per 15 degrees. 
10.   Organizational view on Judging – I don’t know what the NSRCA stance is on judging right now.  In IMAC, there is HUGE $$$ spent on judging programs, seminars, and creating a national standard for judging.  How do they do this?  They fly in people from all around the country for a national-type of judge certification.  These guys then go forth and carry the message. 
a.       Why do they do this?  Because they know that regional differences and biases, or cheating of any kind, can kill-off an organization.  They put a huge leadership and organizational priority on getting judging right.  – if you know me – you know I like that. 

So, there are many, many differences between the two.  Personally, I gravitate towards flying the pattern plane.  However, the “competitive” factors in IMAC are solid too and given the activity around my neck of the woods, you can’t pass it up.  So what’s the point, I guess the point still is that  the total formula is working for IMAC.  The NSRCA formula is not.  What can we take from the differences to tune-up our own game?  And regarding the K-factor – in today’s economy it is hard to justify business decisions that don’t break even.  
Jim 

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of J N HillerSent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 8:48 PMTo: General pattern discussionSubject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll

IMAC v/s Pattern is almost an apples to oranges comparison. IMAC popularity can be traced to the TOC and the general appeal of large colorful high performance readily available aircraft but mostly visibility. Pattern flying is absent from many local clubs but large aerobatic airplanes are represented nearly everywhere. The big airplanes attract the press and interests spectators. Pattern by comparison is extremely repetitious and boring to those not directly involved. 
I didn't want to get into this here but I question how many non-pattern folks would read a free K-Factor. There is a free sample available there now. Is anybody finding it? The problem I find is "Pattern" visibility. I couldn't get Google to find the NSRCA when querying aerobatics, RC aerobatics or pattern, however IMAC showed up. It's as if some amount of prior knowledge is needed before an outsider can gain access to pattern activity. 
AMA doesn't do a very good of job explaining competition events or activity and if you don't know follow the SIG you are kind of out of luck. How dose an outsider become aware of and interested in any competition event without knowing where to look? 
As for the K-Factor, the publication is second to none. I have been receiving them since it was several folded 11 x 14 sheets from a copy machine. The content has for the most part remained about the same; mostly contest results and district news. It's more of a competition newsletter with content of interest to those involved and of questionable interest to outsiders or the mildly interested. There is little seed for growing interest in any rulebook event on the Internet. It only happens at the local level with people having fun. 
To be active competitors in either IMAC or pattern requires a fair amount of disposable income and time commitment. We draw from the same shrinking pool of people willing to commit to a weekend out of town to participate in what appears to be a very regimented activity flown near the limit of visibility for many. Bigger really is better and we (Pattern) is somewhat restricted by trying to remain compatible with FAI. 
I have probably gone on too long but I don't believe our salvation lies in a free K-Factor, not that it shouldn't be, it just won't draw many to our sport. 
Sorry Derek, forgive me for splattering this even more. 
Jim Hiller 

-----Original Message-----From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Troy NewmanSent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 3:44 PMTo: General pattern discussionSubject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll 

Jim, 

What is really amazing is locally here in AZ and Sothern California IMAC contests attract 60-70 pilots. 

IMAC membership is up near 1000 members. They have an online only newsletter. Not even a magazine. 

Why would it be horrible to emulate an organization that is successful like that. 

They can’t be doing anything right they are just IMACers 
Just something to think about. 

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