[NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern
J Shu
jshulman at cfl.rr.com
Fri Jan 30 04:05:17 AKST 2009
Sooooooooooooooooooooo true and funny. I've heard stories like this so many times, every time I laugh.
I am hoping to have 1 or 2 planes to bring to contests to 'loan out' to any pilot that wants to try pattern. Only thing I will ask
is that if the pilot crashes (not mid-air or other issues out of the pilots control) they replace the major parts. Otherwise, I'll
help them set it up the way they want and let them fly it for the contest. And no it's not the electric planes I asked about
earlier...lol.
Regards,
Jason
www.shulmanaviation.com
www.composite-arf.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <glmiller3 at suddenlink.net>
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 7:17 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern
> I've waived the size/noise restriction for sportsman for our contest for the last two years. The first year, I had some
> complaints from the Advanced/Masters flight line because they were "disturbed" by the large airplane flying on the Sportsman line.
> Second year I gave the opposite line pilots the option to hold their flight until the large airplane finished. It didn't slow
> things down too much and allowed another sportsman pilot to try pattern.
>
> I don't think that pattern suffers from much more than being something that most pilots don't want to do. I think that it takes a
> special compulsion to want to perfect a pattern of maneuvers and compete against others by flying it. Several pilots at our club
> have "tried pattern" but when they find out how hard it is to fly straight and level parallell to the runway at 150 meters , they
> quickly go back to "hucking".
>
> Those who haven't tried it, have little respect for the piloting skills necessary. I am seldom asked to help test fly a new plane
> at our field....the newer pilots would rather have a "hucker" fly the plane that is too new or too expensive or just too
> intimidating for them to fly---all I do is big smooth maneuvers when I fly.....they want to have someone fly it who can "wring it
> out". They don't seem to notice that the "hucker" that is about to fly their plane demolishes an airplane once a month on
> average and I'm still flying the same airplane all season long <VBG>.
>
> G
> ---- J N Hiller <jnhiller at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> =============
> 50cc! Great! Can I go back to Intermediate?
> Jim Hiller
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Robert L.
> Beaubien
> Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 6:32 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern
>
> I'd be in favor of removing the restrictions for Intermediate class as well.
> IMAC guys look at the Sportsman routine and think it is easy. We all know
> that it's a lot harder than they think to do "Straight flight out", but
> perception is hard to get by. Mebby set a limit of 50cc for Sportsman and
> Intermediate. It could make for some fun contests.
>
> Another thing that would garner interest (I think) would be to change all
> the schedules every year. Sportsman could alternate between 2 or 3
> different routines as could Intermediate. No need to create completely new
> routines every year for these 2 classes. That is something I would like to
> see just to change it up for us. I figure on flying Intermediate for 2
> years unless I suddenly get a lot of free time to practice this year. :-)
>
> - Robert Beaubien
> - NSRCA, District 7 Webmaster
> -
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Michael Cohen
> Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 6:18 PM
> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern
>
> Well, why don't we encourage the guy with the $500 IMAC ARF to use it in
> pattern? If they like their first contest, they will find a more pattern
> like airplane before moving up to intermediate!
>
>> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 18:46:46 +0000
>> From: seefo at san.rr.com
>> To: jpavlick at idseng.com; nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org;
> homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern
>>
>>
>> Pattern really needs a new competitive ARF to enter market at a reasonable
> price point. Something like $500. In fact.. it needs several of them so
> people can have choices in what to fly.
>>
>> With IMAC, you can get an airplane of the same size (2m), RTF including
> engine and radio for what the majority of the ARFs cost for a pattern
> airplane airframe only.
>>
>> Getting the costs under control should be #1 priority.
>>
>>
>>
>> ---- krishlan fitzsimmons <homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > Well said John..
>> >
>> > On another note, didn't this start out as a "please take an online vote"
> email.
>> >
>> > On even another note, Imac is a different bird. More people may be
> interested in flying IMAC IMO because there is the freestyle. Foamies have
> made a great impact so that anyone can huck in their front yards. Kids are
> really into the foamies and the freestyles because they are fun, and
> impressive. We lack this fun type of flying in their minds. (Not to me, 3d
> is somewhat boring to me, except for foamies)
>> > As someone stated earlier, pattern doesn't have the market flooded with
> $400-500 arfs that almost every person at my field and other fields locally
> have. If we did, I know of many people at my field that would buy one. They
> have told me so. Every time I bring a new plane to the field, people ask me
> how much, and where can they get one. When I tell em how much, their face
> drops...Wanna grow pattern, do something like Hester. He's on the right
> track IMO. Look at all the ads in the larger magazines, how many pattern
> planes do you see in those ads?
>> >
>> > Chris
>> >
>> > --- On Thu, 1/29/09, John Pavlick <jpavlick at idseng.com> wrote:
>> > From: John Pavlick <jpavlick at idseng.com>
>> > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern
>> > To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> > Date: Thursday, January 29, 2009, 7:01 AM
>> >
>> > Jim,
>> > Interesting observations. In my neck of the woods (Connecticut) there
> is almost NO IMAC or Pattern competition so I don't see any of this. Part of
> the reason for that is that it's hard to find large, open areas where you're
> allowed to fly model airplanes. Let alone have an organized contest. My
> state pretty much sucks in that regard. There sems to be plenty of room for
> shopping centers and "retirement communities" however.
>> >
>> > Even with these restrictions, I've managed to enlighten a few people and
> make them aware of Precision Aerobatics. By this I mean IMAC AND Pattern.
> Some people just don't want to fly Pattern, whereas others simply don't want
> to fly IMAC. That's fine as far as I'm concerned but the point is they need
> to know about them. That's where I think Patttern and the NSRCA suffers the
> most. People simply don't know that we exist. We need to increase our
> visibility if we want to attract new members. We DON'T need to change
> anything with how we fly, how we judge, etc. At least not to attract new
> people. All we need to do is let them know we're here and that they can fly
> with us if they want to. No pressure to join. Just take your basic sport
> model to a contest and fly a few rounds in Sportsman. Don't buy a new radio
> or airplane. Don't worry about the weight or size. Just show up. If we want
> to grow Patttern, that's one of the things that we
>> > need to do. If printed copies of the K-Factor at local hobby shops will
> help with that cause (it just might), then send me a box so I can drop them
> off. :)
>> >
>> > John Pavlick
>> >
>> > BTW - I actually did learn about the NSRCA through the K-Factor after a
> club member handed me a copy that he picked up somewhere. Once I knew that
> Patttern was still alive in my area (I had taken a LONG hiatus) I built a
> new airplane, started going to contests and joined the NSRCA.
>> >
>> >
>> > --- On Thu, 1/29/09, Woodward, Jim (US SSA)
> <jim.woodward at baesystems.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <jim.woodward at baesystems.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll
>> > To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> > Date: Thursday, January 29, 2009, 2:16 PM
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > JN - there is more to the comparison of IMAC/Pattern than the traceable
> history to the TOC or available ARF scenario. I think Jay hit on it
> something important other day stating something to the effect that, ". if
> you are not in FAI or Masters you are left on your own." (forgive me if it
> wasn't Jay or I misquoted). Pattern and IMAC are totally different in many
> ways and being that I'm involved in the District/Leadership of each, I'll
> list a few in no particular order:
>> > 1. Basic, Sportsman, Intermediate in IMAC: in a 50 person
> contest, there are 5 Unlimited, 5 Advanced, and 40 persons spread almost
> equally between the lower classes
>> > 2. Sportsman, Intermediate, Advanced in Pattern: In a 20 person
> contest, maybe 3-4 FAI, 7-10 Masters, 8-10 spread between lower classes.
>> > 3. R/C Clubs view holding an IMAC Contest as a money-making event.
> Not so sure for the pattern event.
>> > 4. Not such a rush to move up in classes in IMAC: IMAC changes
> sequences yearly and has unknowns flown each contest, all classes except for
> Basic. IMAC classes get harder in a hurry. For instance the intermediate
> class will have a 90 degree rolling turn in it and numerous snaps rolls,
> also a spin. There is no mercy on unknowns. sometimes they are more
> difficult than the normal sequence, sometimes easier, sometimes just
> different. There is not an expectation that all pilots will reach the
> "destination" class. There is no destination class in IMAC.
>> > 5. Piloting differences? I find the average IMAC pilot is a
> fairly high skilled R/C pilot that is learning the precision side of things.
> You might watch a OK sequence, but later in the evening see them throwing it
> down on the deck in aggressive Freestyle most of us would dare try. The
> Pattern guys grow-up precision and can fly a higher scoring stall turn and
> have better sequence-fundamentals (and positioning), but lack in some of the
> other R/C roundness.
>> > 6. The IMAC ranks have a lot of guys "who used to fly pattern" in
> them. I've heard it all as to why they stopped flying pattern and here it
> is (believe me or not , up to you):
>> > a. Pattern is too political at the top
>> > b. Feeling of Topped out - it didn't matter how much I practiced, I
> couldn't improve my scores or beat that one guy
>> > c. Best flights aren't winning rounds
>> > d. Didn't fit in
>> > e. These are opinions range from normal pilots, to "top guys" that
> only fly IMAC now
>> > 7. Flying/Positioning - I love the pattern way of flying in a box,
> with a centerpole - I FREAKIN-HATE the IMAC way of writing sequences with
> "sort of left, sort of right" maneuvers. I understand why it is done and
> such, but I'd take the box anyday. Flying the box in pattern is its
> "own-significant-difficulty" which makes the less complex maneuvers harder
> to do. The IMAC way lets them "load-up" each maneuver into a super-complex
> deal - very hard to score well I may add too. However, its all part of the
> pie.
>> > 8. Winning? In pattern, a win means you flew the sequences the
> best. This is cool because often you can "beat" a better pilot, by flying
> the maneuver you need to know how to do better than the other guys. In
> IMAC, usually the "best" pilots wins, because it is a combination of flying
> the known and unknown.
>> > 9. Planes? Pattern planes fly the best, but are harder to fly
> well. Pattern planes are less affected by small changes in atmospheric
> conditions, or good/bad engine days - IE -- you almost always have enough
> power in a pattern plane regardless of sequence flown. IMAC - totally
> different. Humidity (specifically), can DRASTICALLY affect the speed of
> your plane. Power requirements change hugely with sequence/class changes.
> For instance, unlimited need a truly unlimited power setup. Not so easy to
> move up without changing equipment. A 40% plane is easier to fly
> "wings-level", but the judging penalties
>> > are 0.5 point per 5 degrees, instead of 1 point per 15 degrees.
>> > 10. Organizational view on Judging - I don't know what the NSRCA
> stance is on judging right now. In IMAC, there is HUGE $$$ spent on judging
> programs, seminars, and creating a national standard for judging. How do
> they do this? They fly in people from all around the country for a
> national-type of judge certification. These guys then go forth and carry
> the message.
>> > a. Why do they do this? Because they know that regional
> differences and biases, or cheating of any kind, can kill-off an
> organization. They put a huge leadership and organizational priority on
> getting judging right. - if you know me - you know I like that.
>> >
>> > So, there are many, many differences between the two. Personally, I
> gravitate towards flying the pattern plane. However, the "competitive"
> factors in IMAC are solid too and given the activity around my neck of the
> woods, you can't pass it up. So what's the point, I guess the point still
> is that the total formula is working for IMAC. The NSRCA formula is not.
> What can we take from the differences to tune-up our own game? And
> regarding the K-factor - in today's economy it is hard to justify business
> decisions that don't break even.
>> > Jim
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of J N Hiller
>> > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 8:48 PM
>> > To: General pattern discussion
>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll
>> >
>> > IMAC v/s Pattern is almost an apples to oranges comparison. IMAC
> popularity can be traced to the TOC and the general appeal of large colorful
> high performance readily available aircraft but mostly visibility. Pattern
> flying is absent from many local clubs but large aerobatic airplanes are
> represented nearly everywhere. The big airplanes attract the press and
> interests spectators. Pattern by comparison is extremely repetitious and
> boring to those not directly involved.
>> > I didn't want to get into this here but I question how many non-pattern
> folks would read a free K-Factor. There is a free sample available there
> now. Is anybody finding it? The problem I find is "Pattern" visibility. I
> couldn't get Google to find the NSRCA when querying aerobatics, RC
> aerobatics or pattern, however IMAC showed up. It's as if some amount of
> prior knowledge is needed before an outsider can gain access to pattern
> activity.
>> > AMA doesn't do a very good of job explaining competition events or
> activity and if you don't know follow the SIG you are kind of out of luck.
> How dose an outsider become aware of and interested in any competition event
> without knowing where to look?
>> > As for the K-Factor, the publication is second to none. I have been
> receiving them since it was several folded 11 x 14 sheets from a copy
> machine. The content has for the most part remained about the same; mostly
> contest results and district news. It's more of a competition newsletter
> with content of interest to those involved and of questionable interest to
> outsiders or the mildly interested. There is little seed for growing
> interest in any rulebook event on the Internet. It only happens at the local
> level with people having fun.
>> > To be active competitors in either IMAC or pattern requires a fair
> amount of disposable income and time commitment. We draw from the same
> shrinking pool of people willing to commit to a weekend out of town to
> participate in what appears to be a very regimented activity flown near the
> limit of visibility for many. Bigger really is better and we (Pattern) is
> somewhat restricted by trying to remain compatible with FAI.
>> > I have probably gone on too long but I don't believe our salvation lies
> in a free K-Factor, not that it shouldn't be, it just won't draw many to our
> sport.
>> > Sorry Derek, forgive me for splattering this even more.
>> > Jim Hiller
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Troy Newman
>> > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 3:44 PM
>> > To: General pattern discussion
>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll
>> >
>> >
>> > Jim,
>> >
>> > What is really amazing is locally here in AZ and Sothern California IMAC
> contests attract 60-70 pilots.
>> >
>> > IMAC membership is up near 1000 members. They have an online only
> newsletter. Not even a magazine.
>> >
>> > Why would it be horrible to emulate an organization that is successful
> like that.
>> >
>> > They can't be doing anything right they are just IMACers
>> > Just something to think about.
>> >
>> > Troy_______________________________________________
>> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> >
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>>
>>
>>
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