[NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern
Jon Lowe
jonlowe at aol.com
Thu Jan 29 17:57:52 AKST 2009
Add the Focus Sport. $295 at Central Hobbies.
Jon Lowe
-----Original Message-----
From: AtwoodDon at aol.com
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Sent: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 8:42 pm
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern
The Venus II and the Spot-On 120 and the Leo 110 and........ all good
airplanes in the Sportsman/Int/Advanced clases
Don
In a message dated 1/29/2009 6:22:12 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
ed_alt at hotmail.com writes:
Agreed.
There's the Aquila and...
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:
<seefo at san.rr.com>
To: <jpavlick at idseng.com>; "General pattern
discussion"
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>;
<homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 1:46
PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow
Pattern
>
> Pattern really needs a new competitive ARF to
enter market at a reasonable
> price point. Something like $500. In
fact.. it needs several of them so
> people can have choices in what to
fly.
>
> With IMAC, you can get an airplane of the same size (2m),
RTF including
> engine and radio for what the majority of the ARFs cost
for a pattern
> airplane airframe only.
>
> Getting the
costs under control should be #1 priority.
>
>
>
>
---- krishlan fitzsimmons <homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com>
wrote:
>> We
ll said John..
>>
>> On another note,
didn't this start out as a "please take an online vote"
>>
email.
>>
>> On even another note, Imac is a different bird.
More people may be
>> interested in flying IMAC IMO because there is
the freestyle. Foamies
>> have made a great impact so that anyone
can huck in their front yards.
>> Kids are really into the foamies
and the freestyles because they are fun,
>> and impressive. We lack
this fun type of flying in their minds. (Not to
>> me, 3d is
somewhat boring to me, except for foamies)
>> As someone stated
earlier, pattern doesn't have the market flooded with
>> $400-500
arfs that almost every person at my field and other fields
>>
locally have. If we did, I know of many people at my field that would
buy
>> one. They have told me so. Every time I bring a new plane to the
field,
>> people ask me how much, and where can they get one. When I
tell em how
>> much, their face drops...Wanna grow pattern, do
something like Hester.
>> He's on the right track IMO. Look at all
the ads in the larger magazines,
>> how many pattern planes do you
see in those ads?
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> --- On
Thu, 1/29/09, John Pavlick <jpavlick at idseng.com> wrote:
>>
From: John Pavlick <jpavlick at idseng.com>
>> Subject:
[NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern
>>
To: "General
pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Date:
Thursday, January 29, 2009, 7:01 AM
>>
>> Jim,
>>
Interesting observations. In my neck of the woods (Connecticut) there
is
>> almost NO IMAC or Pattern competition so I don't see any of this.
Part of
>> the reason for that is that it's hard to find large, open
areas where
>> you're allowed to fly model airplanes. Let alone have
an organized
>> contest. My state pretty much sucks in that regard.
There sems to be
>> plenty of room for shopping centers and
"retirement communities" however.
>>
>> Even with these
restrictions, I've managed to enlighten a few people and
>> make
them aware of Precision Aerobatics. By this I mean IMAC AND Pattern.
>> Some people just don't want to fly Pattern, whereas others simply
don't
>> want to fly IMAC. That's fine as far as I'm concerned but
the point is
>> they need to know about them. That's where I think
Patttern and the NSRCA
>> suffers the most. People simply don't know
that we exist. We need to
>> increase our visibility if we want to
attract new members. We DON'T need
>> to change anything with how we
fly, how we judge, etc. At least not to
>> attract new people. All
we need to do is let them know we're here and
>> that they can fly
with us if they want to. No pressure to join. Ju
st take
>> your
basic sport model to a contest and fly a few rounds in Sportsman.
>>
Don't buy a new radio or airplane. Don't worry about the weight or
size.
>> Just show up. If we want to grow Patttern, that's one of the
things that
>> we
>> need to do. If printed copies of
the K-Factor at local hobby shops will
>> help with that cause (it
just might), then send me a box so I can drop
>> them off.
:)
>>
>> John Pavlick
>>
>> BTW - I
actually did learn about the NSRCA through the K-Factor after a
>>
club member handed me a copy that he picked up somewhere. Once I knew
>> that Patttern was still alive in my area (I had taken a LONG
hiatus) I
>> built a new airplane, started going to contests and
joined the NSRCA.
>>
>>
>> --- On Thu, 1/29/09,
Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <jim.woodward at baesystems.com>
>>
wrote:
>>
>> From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA)
<jim.woodward at baesystems.com>
>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll
>> To:
"General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Date: Thursday, January
29, 2009, 2:16
PM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
JN – there is more to the comparison of IMAC/Pattern than the
traceable
>> history to the TOC or available ARF scenario. I think Jay hit on
it
>> somethi
ng important other day stating something to the effect
that, “… if
>> you are not in FAI or Masters you are left on your
own.” (forgive me if
>> it wasn’t Jay or I misquoted). Pattern and
IMAC are totally different in
>> many ways and being that I’m
involved in the District/Leadership of each,
>> I’ll list a few in
no particular order:
>> 1. Basic, Sportsman, Intermediate in IMAC: in
a 50 person contest, there
>> are 5 Unlimited, 5 Advanced, and 40
persons spread almost equally between
>> the lower
classes
>> 2. Sportsman, Intermediate, Advanced in Pattern: In a 20
person contest,
>> maybe 3-4 FAI, 7-10 Masters, 8-10 spread between
lower classes.
>> 3. R/C Clubs view holding an IMAC Contest as a
money-making event. Not so
>> sure for the pattern
event.
>> 4. Not such a rush to move up in classes in IMAC: IMAC
changes sequences
>> yearly and has unknowns flown each contest, all
classes except for Basic.
>> IMAC classes get harder in a hurry. For
instance the intermediate class
>> will have a 90 degree rolling
turn in it and numerous snaps rolls, also a
>> spin. There is no
mercy on unknowns… sometimes they are more difficult
>> than the
normal sequence, sometimes easier, sometimes just different.
>>
There is not an expectation that all pilots will reach the
“destina
tion”
>> class. There is no destination class in IMAC.
>> 5.
Piloting differences? I find the average IMAC pilot is a fairly high
>> skilled R/C pilot that is learning the precision side of things.
You
>> might watch a OK sequence, but later in the evening see them
throwing it
>> down on the deck in aggressive Freestyle most of us
would dare try. The
>> Pattern guys grow-up precision and can fly a
higher scoring stall turn
>> and have better sequence-fundamentals
(and positioning), but lack in some
>> of the other R/C
roundness.
>> 6. The IMAC ranks have a lot of guys “who used to fly
pattern” in them. I’ve
>> heard it all as to why they stopped flying
pattern and here it is
>> (believe me or not , up to
you):
>> a. Pattern is too political at the top
>> b.
Feeling of Topped out – it didn’t matter how much I practiced, I
>>
couldn’t improve my scores or beat that one guy
>> c. Best flights
aren’t winning rounds
>> d. Didn’t fit in
>> e. These are
opinions range from normal pilots, to “top guys” that only
>> fly
IMAC now
>> 7. Flying/Positioning – I love the pattern way of flying
in a box, with a
>> centerpole – I FREAKIN-HATE the IMAC way of
writing sequences with “sort
>> of left, sort of right” maneuve
rs. I
understand why it is done and such,
>> but I’d take the box anyday.
Flying the box in pattern is its
>> “own-significant-difficulty”
which makes the less complex maneuvers
>> harder to do. The IMAC way
lets them “load-up” each maneuver into a
>> super-complex deal –
very hard to score well I may add too. However, its
>> all part of
the pie.
>> 8. Winning? In pattern, a win means you flew the
sequences the best. This
>> is cool because often you can “beat” a
better pilot, by flying the
>> maneuver you need to know how to do
better than the other guys. In IMAC,
>> usually the “best” pilots
wins, because it is a combination of flying the
>> known and
unknown.
>> 9. Planes? Pattern planes fly the best, but are harder to
fly well.
>> Pattern planes are less affected by small changes in
atmospheric
>> conditions, or good/bad engine days – IE -- you
almost always have enough
>> power in a pattern plane regardless of
sequence flown. IMAC - totally
>> different. Humidity
(specifically), can DRASTICALLY affect the speed of
>> your plane.
Power requirements change hugely with sequence/class changes.
>> For
instance, unlimited need a truly unlimited power setup. Not so easy
>> to move up without changing equipment. A 40% plane is easier to
fly
>>
wings-level”, but the judging penalties
>>
are 0.5 point per 5 degrees, instead of 1 point per 15 degrees.
>>
10. Organizational view on Judging – I don’t know what the NSRCA
stance
>> is on judging right now. In IMAC, there is HUGE $$$ spent on
judging
>> programs, seminars, and creating a national standard for
judging. How do
>> they do this? They fly in people from all around
the country for a
>> national-type of judge certification. These
guys then go forth and carry
>> the message.
>> a. Why do
they do this? Because they know that regional differences and
>>
biases, or cheating of any kind, can kill-off an organization. They
put a
>> huge leadership and organizational priority on getting judging
right. –
>> if you know me – you know I like
that.
>>
>> So, there are many, many differences between the
two. Personally, I
>> gravitate towards flying the pattern plane.
However, the “competitive”
>> factors in IMAC are solid too and
given the activity around my neck of
>> the woods, you can’t pass it
up. So what’s the point, I guess the point
>> still is that the
total formula is working for IMAC. The NSRCA formula is
>> not. What
can we take from the differences to tune-up our own game? And
>>
regarding the K-factor – in today’s=2
0economy it is hard to justify
>>
business decisions that don’t break even.
>>
Jim
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of J N
Hiller
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 8:48 PM
>> To:
General pattern discussion
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll
>>
>> IMAC v/s Pattern
is almost an apples to oranges comparison. IMAC
>> popularity can be
traced to the TOC and the general appeal of large
>> colorful high
performance readily available aircraft but mostly
>> visibility.
Pattern flying is absent from many local clubs but large
>>
aerobatic airplanes are represented nearly everywhere. The big
airplanes
>> attract the press and interests spectators. Pattern by comparison
is
>> extremely repetitious and boring to those not directly
involved.
>> I didn't want to get into this here but I question how
many non-pattern
>> folks would read a free K-Factor. There is a
free sample available there
>> now. Is anybody finding it? The
problem I find is "Pattern" visibility. I
>> couldn't get Google to
find the NSRCA when querying aerobatics, RC
>> aerobatics or
pattern, however IMAC showed up. It's as if some amount of
>> prior
knowledge is needed before an outsider can gain access to pattern
>>
activi
ty.
>> AMA doesn't do a very good of job explaining competition
events or
>> activity and if you don't know follow the SIG you are
kind of out of
>> luck. How dose an outsider become aware of and
interested in any
>> competition event without knowing where to
look?
>> As for the K-Factor, the publication is second to none. I
have been
>> receiving them since it was several folded 11 x 14
sheets from a copy
>> machine. The content has for the most part
remained about the same;
>> mostly contest results and district
news. It's more of a competition
>> newsletter with content of
interest to those involved and of questionable
>> interest to
outsiders or the mildly interested. There is little seed for
>>
growing interest in any rulebook event on the Internet. It only
happens
>> at the local level with people having fun.
>> To be
active competitors in either IMAC or pattern requires a fair amount
>> of disposable income and time commitment. We draw from the same
shrinking
>> pool of people willing to commit to a weekend out of
town to participate
>> in what appears to be a very regimented
activity flown near the limit of
>> visibility for many. Bigger
really is better and we (Pattern) is somewhat
>> restricted by
trying to remain compatible with FAI.
>> I have probably gone on too
long but I don't believe
our salvation lies
>> in a free K-Factor,
not that it shouldn't be, it just won't draw many to
>> our
sport.
>> Sorry Derek, forgive me for splattering this even
more.
>> Jim Hiller
>>
>>
>> -----Original
Message-----
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of
Troy Newman
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 3:44 PM
>>
To: General pattern discussion
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll
>>
>>
>>
Jim,
>>
>> What is really amazing is locally here in AZ and
Sothern California IMAC
>> contests attract 60-70
pilots.
>>
>> IMAC membership is up near 1000 members. They
have an online only
>> newsletter. Not even a
magazine.
>>
>> Why would it be horrible to emulate an
organization that is successful
>> like
that.
>>
>> They can’t be doing anything right they are just
IMACers
>> Just something to think about.
>>
>>
Troy_______________________________________________
>>
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