[NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern
AtwoodDon at aol.com
AtwoodDon at aol.com
Thu Jan 29 17:42:33 AKST 2009
The Venus II and the Spot-On 120 and the Leo 110 and........ all good
airplanes in the Sportsman/Int/Advanced clases
Don
In a message dated 1/29/2009 6:22:12 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
ed_alt at hotmail.com writes:
Agreed. There's the Aquila and...
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: <seefo at san.rr.com>
To: <jpavlick at idseng.com>; "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>; <homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 1:46 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern
>
> Pattern really needs a new competitive ARF to enter market at a reasonable
> price point. Something like $500. In fact.. it needs several of them so
> people can have choices in what to fly.
>
> With IMAC, you can get an airplane of the same size (2m), RTF including
> engine and radio for what the majority of the ARFs cost for a pattern
> airplane airframe only.
>
> Getting the costs under control should be #1 priority.
>
>
>
> ---- krishlan fitzsimmons <homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Well said John..
>>
>> On another note, didn't this start out as a "please take an online vote"
>> email.
>>
>> On even another note, Imac is a different bird. More people may be
>> interested in flying IMAC IMO because there is the freestyle. Foamies
>> have made a great impact so that anyone can huck in their front yards.
>> Kids are really into the foamies and the freestyles because they are fun,
>> and impressive. We lack this fun type of flying in their minds. (Not to
>> me, 3d is somewhat boring to me, except for foamies)
>> As someone stated earlier, pattern doesn't have the market flooded with
>> $400-500 arfs that almost every person at my field and other fields
>> locally have. If we did, I know of many people at my field that would buy
>> one. They have told me so. Every time I bring a new plane to the field,
>> people ask me how much, and where can they get one. When I tell em how
>> much, their face drops...Wanna grow pattern, do something like Hester.
>> He's on the right track IMO. Look at all the ads in the larger magazines,
>> how many pattern planes do you see in those ads?
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> --- On Thu, 1/29/09, John Pavlick <jpavlick at idseng.com> wrote:
>> From: John Pavlick <jpavlick at idseng.com>
>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern
>> To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Date: Thursday, January 29, 2009, 7:01 AM
>>
>> Jim,
>> Interesting observations. In my neck of the woods (Connecticut) there is
>> almost NO IMAC or Pattern competition so I don't see any of this. Part of
>> the reason for that is that it's hard to find large, open areas where
>> you're allowed to fly model airplanes. Let alone have an organized
>> contest. My state pretty much sucks in that regard. There sems to be
>> plenty of room for shopping centers and "retirement communities" however.
>>
>> Even with these restrictions, I've managed to enlighten a few people and
>> make them aware of Precision Aerobatics. By this I mean IMAC AND Pattern.
>> Some people just don't want to fly Pattern, whereas others simply don't
>> want to fly IMAC. That's fine as far as I'm concerned but the point is
>> they need to know about them. That's where I think Patttern and the NSRCA
>> suffers the most. People simply don't know that we exist. We need to
>> increase our visibility if we want to attract new members. We DON'T need
>> to change anything with how we fly, how we judge, etc. At least not to
>> attract new people. All we need to do is let them know we're here and
>> that they can fly with us if they want to. No pressure to join. Just take
>> your basic sport model to a contest and fly a few rounds in Sportsman.
>> Don't buy a new radio or airplane. Don't worry about the weight or size.
>> Just show up. If we want to grow Patttern, that's one of the things that
>> we
>> need to do. If printed copies of the K-Factor at local hobby shops will
>> help with that cause (it just might), then send me a box so I can drop
>> them off. :)
>>
>> John Pavlick
>>
>> BTW - I actually did learn about the NSRCA through the K-Factor after a
>> club member handed me a copy that he picked up somewhere. Once I knew
>> that Patttern was still alive in my area (I had taken a LONG hiatus) I
>> built a new airplane, started going to contests and joined the NSRCA.
>>
>>
>> --- On Thu, 1/29/09, Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <jim.woodward at baesystems.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <jim.woodward at baesystems.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll
>> To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Date: Thursday, January 29, 2009, 2:16 PM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> JN – there is more to the comparison of IMAC/Pattern than the traceable
>> history to the TOC or available ARF scenario. I think Jay hit on it
>> something important other day stating something to the effect that, “…
if
>> you are not in FAI or Masters you are left on your own.” (forgive me if
>> it wasn’t Jay or I misquoted). Pattern and IMAC are totally different in
>> many ways and being that I’m involved in the District/Leadership of each,
>> I’ll list a few in no particular order:
>> 1. Basic, Sportsman, Intermediate in IMAC: in a 50 person contest, there
>> are 5 Unlimited, 5 Advanced, and 40 persons spread almost equally between
>> the lower classes
>> 2. Sportsman, Intermediate, Advanced in Pattern: In a 20 person contest,
>> maybe 3-4 FAI, 7-10 Masters, 8-10 spread between lower classes.
>> 3. R/C Clubs view holding an IMAC Contest as a money-making event. Not so
>> sure for the pattern event.
>> 4. Not such a rush to move up in classes in IMAC: IMAC changes sequences
>> yearly and has unknowns flown each contest, all classes except for Basic.
>> IMAC classes get harder in a hurry. For instance the intermediate class
>> will have a 90 degree rolling turn in it and numerous snaps rolls, also a
>> spin. There is no mercy on unknowns… sometimes they are more difficult
>> than the normal sequence, sometimes easier, sometimes just different.
>> There is not an expectation that all pilots will reach the “destination”
>> class. There is no destination class in IMAC.
>> 5. Piloting differences? I find the average IMAC pilot is a fairly high
>> skilled R/C pilot that is learning the precision side of things. You
>> might watch a OK sequence, but later in the evening see them throwing it
>> down on the deck in aggressive Freestyle most of us would dare try. The
>> Pattern guys grow-up precision and can fly a higher scoring stall turn
>> and have better sequence-fundamentals (and positioning), but lack in some
>> of the other R/C roundness.
>> 6. The IMAC ranks have a lot of guys “who used to fly pattern” in them. I
’ve
>> heard it all as to why they stopped flying pattern and here it is
>> (believe me or not , up to you):
>> a. Pattern is too political at the top
>> b. Feeling of Topped out – it didn’t matter how much I practiced, I
>> couldn’t improve my scores or beat that one guy
>> c. Best flights aren’t winning rounds
>> d. Didn’t fit in
>> e. These are opinions range from normal pilots, to “top guys” that only
>> fly IMAC now
>> 7. Flying/Positioning – I love the pattern way of flying in a box, with a
>> centerpole – I FREAKIN-HATE the IMAC way of writing sequences with “sort
>> of left, sort of right” maneuvers. I understand why it is done and such,
>> but I’d take the box anyday. Flying the box in pattern is its
>> “own-significant-difficulty” which makes the less complex maneuvers
>> harder to do. The IMAC way lets them “load-up” each maneuver into a
>> super-complex deal – very hard to score well I may add too. However, its
>> all part of the pie.
>> 8. Winning? In pattern, a win means you flew the sequences the best. This
>> is cool because often you can “beat” a better pilot, by flying the
>> maneuver you need to know how to do better than the other guys. In IMAC,
>> usually the “best” pilots wins, because it is a combination of flying
the
>> known and unknown.
>> 9. Planes? Pattern planes fly the best, but are harder to fly well.
>> Pattern planes are less affected by small changes in atmospheric
>> conditions, or good/bad engine days – IE -- you almost always have enough
>> power in a pattern plane regardless of sequence flown. IMAC - totally
>> different. Humidity (specifically), can DRASTICALLY affect the speed of
>> your plane. Power requirements change hugely with sequence/class changes.
>> For instance, unlimited need a truly unlimited power setup. Not so easy
>> to move up without changing equipment. A 40% plane is easier to fly
>> “wings-level”, but the judging penalties
>> are 0.5 point per 5 degrees, instead of 1 point per 15 degrees.
>> 10. Organizational view on Judging – I don’t know what the NSRCA stance
>> is on judging right now. In IMAC, there is HUGE $$$ spent on judging
>> programs, seminars, and creating a national standard for judging. How do
>> they do this? They fly in people from all around the country for a
>> national-type of judge certification. These guys then go forth and carry
>> the message.
>> a. Why do they do this? Because they know that regional differences and
>> biases, or cheating of any kind, can kill-off an organization. They put a
>> huge leadership and organizational priority on getting judging right. –
>> if you know me – you know I like that.
>>
>> So, there are many, many differences between the two. Personally, I
>> gravitate towards flying the pattern plane. However, the “competitive”
>> factors in IMAC are solid too and given the activity around my neck of
>> the woods, you can’t pass it up. So what’s the point, I guess the point
>> still is that the total formula is working for IMAC. The NSRCA formula is
>> not. What can we take from the differences to tune-up our own game? And
>> regarding the K-factor – in today’s economy it is hard to justify
>> business decisions that don’t break even.
>> Jim
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of J N Hiller
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 8:48 PM
>> To: General pattern discussion
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll
>>
>> IMAC v/s Pattern is almost an apples to oranges comparison. IMAC
>> popularity can be traced to the TOC and the general appeal of large
>> colorful high performance readily available aircraft but mostly
>> visibility. Pattern flying is absent from many local clubs but large
>> aerobatic airplanes are represented nearly everywhere. The big airplanes
>> attract the press and interests spectators. Pattern by comparison is
>> extremely repetitious and boring to those not directly involved.
>> I didn't want to get into this here but I question how many non-pattern
>> folks would read a free K-Factor. There is a free sample available there
>> now. Is anybody finding it? The problem I find is "Pattern" visibility. I
>> couldn't get Google to find the NSRCA when querying aerobatics, RC
>> aerobatics or pattern, however IMAC showed up. It's as if some amount of
>> prior knowledge is needed before an outsider can gain access to pattern
>> activity.
>> AMA doesn't do a very good of job explaining competition events or
>> activity and if you don't know follow the SIG you are kind of out of
>> luck. How dose an outsider become aware of and interested in any
>> competition event without knowing where to look?
>> As for the K-Factor, the publication is second to none. I have been
>> receiving them since it was several folded 11 x 14 sheets from a copy
>> machine. The content has for the most part remained about the same;
>> mostly contest results and district news. It's more of a competition
>> newsletter with content of interest to those involved and of questionable
>> interest to outsiders or the mildly interested. There is little seed for
>> growing interest in any rulebook event on the Internet. It only happens
>> at the local level with people having fun.
>> To be active competitors in either IMAC or pattern requires a fair amount
>> of disposable income and time commitment. We draw from the same shrinking
>> pool of people willing to commit to a weekend out of town to participate
>> in what appears to be a very regimented activity flown near the limit of
>> visibility for many. Bigger really is better and we (Pattern) is somewhat
>> restricted by trying to remain compatible with FAI.
>> I have probably gone on too long but I don't believe our salvation lies
>> in a free K-Factor, not that it shouldn't be, it just won't draw many to
>> our sport.
>> Sorry Derek, forgive me for splattering this even more.
>> Jim Hiller
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Troy Newman
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 3:44 PM
>> To: General pattern discussion
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll
>>
>>
>> Jim,
>>
>> What is really amazing is locally here in AZ and Sothern California IMAC
>> contests attract 60-70 pilots.
>>
>> IMAC membership is up near 1000 members. They have an online only
>> newsletter. Not even a magazine.
>>
>> Why would it be horrible to emulate an organization that is successful
>> like that.
>>
>> They can’t be doing anything right they are just IMACers
>> Just something to think about.
>>
>> Troy_______________________________________________
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>
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