[NSRCA-discussion] Matrix improvements
krishlan fitzsimmons
homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com
Mon Aug 3 13:42:41 AKDT 2009
Thanks Mike, and believe me, I am very happy with where I finished! Was an awesome experience again, and I know I can fly much better than I did (especially with my new E-motion). Hopefully masters can continue to have such great pilots! On to FAI next year I think.
Chris
--- On Mon, 8/3/09, michael s harrison <drmikedds at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
From: michael s harrison <drmikedds at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matrix improvements
To: "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 2:27 PM
Everybody I judged was a somebody. I thought you flew very well
and thought I scored you as such. 9th or 10th in that
bunch was quite an achievement. It was the best Masters bunch I have ever
seen.
mike
From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of krishlan
fitzsimmons
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 3:50 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matrix improvements
I agree Mark. 100%...
I'm a try to win guy normally, but for my 1st and 2nd nats, the finals is
good IMO as I haven't paid my dues, and am a nobody. I guess I'm just not
used to not being judged equally. Something I will have to get used to if I
want to continue to go to the nats.
Chris
--- On Mon, 8/3/09, Atwood, Mark <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
wrote:
From: Atwood, Mark <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matrix improvements
To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 1:32 PM
I’d
argue there are two groups of people that go to the nats. One group to try
and win, the other to see their general placing and enjoy the social
environment of a week playing with toy airplanes.
From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of krishlan
fitzsimmons
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 3:53 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matrix improvements
Equal
exposure takes time we usually don’t have. We lower the cut-off point to
ensure that the top fliers in contention for winning make the finals.
Then why does anyone go to the nats. Shouldn't only the top
flyers go? haha
On another note, who fly's morning's next year. LMAO.. lol
I'm starting to get a laugh out of the nats.. lol
Chris
--- On Mon, 8/3/09, Atwood, Mark <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
wrote:
From: Atwood, Mark <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matrix improvements
To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 12:28 PM
As someone who’s goal this year was to make the FAI Semi
Finals, I understand your point completely.
The problem is that all you’re really doing by changing
systems is shifting the accuracy from spots 6,7 & 8 to 11,12 & 13.
Bad seeding will still result in those positions being a coin toss. An
unknown flyer, or one that has not been to the Nationals in years, does not
usually get “seeded” and can mess up the whole game (with regard to that 12th
spot…not as far as picking a champion or even the top 6).
Bottom line, anything but equal exposure will always make
the cut-off positions subject to error. Equal exposure takes time we
usually don’t have. We lower the cut-off point to ensure that the top
fliers in contention for winning make the finals.
I’m not really sure what else can be done.
From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of krishlan
fitzsimmons
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 3:00 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matrix improvements
My
opinion may be a little different, but similar Mark.
An example, Mike Mueller flew against Tony all week. Flew excellent, but didn't
make the finals. My opinion, he should have. The way our system works (or
doesn't work) caused this IMO. Mike, like myself and many others, spent a
lot on the nats, and if it isn't fair, why go? Well, it's a great time
for sure. And it's great to see all you guys! But we need a system to
allow us to be judged fairly. We would never run this kind of system at a
local contest, so why do we do it at the nats, our most prestigious
contest? Could you see it at a local? Ok, you two guys fly in front of those
judges, and you other 2 guys fly in front of two other judges, and so on.
Why did FAI want equal exposure this year? My guess is because they had
less entries, yes, but because our system doesn't work right, and I'm
sure they know it. Would the outcome have been different if they ran it
different? Maybe, maybe not. But I sure feel the Masters outcome would
have been had we had equal exposure. And if Intermediate, and Advanced
would have had a finals, I feel the outcome may have changed a little.
We discussed this some at the contest this weekend, and doing Jerry's
system, with taking the top 3 in each group, then flying 3 and keeping
the best 2 rounds would work pretty well, and not much more time. That
way, the top 8 will make the finals regardless of their grouping
inconsistencies. Unless we can get equal exposure like FAI did this year.
That is the best system. Just a thought.
Where I differ I think in our thoughts Mark, is that I go to try to make
the finals. Then I would be satisfied. 8th place is good to me at the
nats right now. Yes we are trying to pick a national champion. But to
some of us lesser talented flyer's, we are battling for, and proud of
5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th.
In the long run, whatever happens, happens. The point of the whole
discussion is to bring about new and possibly format changing ideas that
we all may find hope in and try those ideas. Change is good sometimes.
With the high amount of intelligence amongst our group, we ought to be
able to figure out a way to do this IMO.
Chris
--- On Mon, 8/3/09, Atwood, Mark <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
wrote:
From: Atwood, Mark <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matrix improvements
To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 11:06 AM
This is really the ONLY issue at hand. Proper
seeding becomes vital to both formats. In the Matrix system, two
“weaker” (no bashing, just being honest) groups will normalize very high
to one another on the day they fly against each other knocking out
some of the pilots from the other groups who are forced to always
normalize against one of the stronger pilots (in this years case that was
Arch and Frak).
The 4 mini contests does a better job with the math (your
at least not trying to force normalization with equal exposure) but in
contrast, the idea of taking the top 2 or 3 from each group assumes that
one group won’t have 4 of the best pilots. Not the best assumption
given the inconsistent attendance that many have at the nats. No
way to seed beyond the top 3-4 people that we have experience with.
In both cases…people have to stay true to the
“Goal”. Which is really to make sure that the top 3 guys make the
finals. We’re trying to pick the National Champion, not the 5,6,7
and 8th place guys. Taking 8 to the finals in
EITHER format does a good job of ensuring that the top 3 are in the
finals and have a fair, well judged event to choose the champion.
I think any format we choose is likely to err when it
comes to the 8,9,10 place individuals. That would be a problem if
we were only taking 3 to the finals. The idea of taking 8 purposely
mitigates that.
It’s even less of an issue in FAI where 20 fly in a full
exposure format to choose the finalists and they still take 8 to choose
the top guys.
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Derek
Koopowitz
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 1:57 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matrix improvements
Seeding would be very critical in this just like seeding is
critical in the current matrix system as well. I'll give you a good
example... had Glen Watson showed up wouldn't that have affected some
pilots in his group? With Glen not being there that group became an
"easy" group and the normalized scores reflected that relative
to the other groups. I'm not trying to diminish anyone's flying
efforts here but I think the ED should adjust the flying groups based on
attendance if necessary in order to level the playing field for everyone.
On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Mark Hunt <flyintexan at att.net> wrote:
I too would like to see an article on this. No offense, but
initially it is unclear to me how this would give any better exposure of
pilots to the same judges/conditions than the current matrix system
allows for. Would seeding not become even more critical in this
scenario?
Mark
From: Anthony
Romano <anthonyr105 at hotmail.com>
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Sent: Monday,
August 3, 2009 11:56:34 AM
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Matrix improvements
Maybe Jerry could detail this in a Kfactor article. Perhaps could be
used at locals to help with an oversized Masters group.
Anthony
Date:
Thu, 30 Jul 2009 15:45:19 -0700
From: derekkoopowitz at gmail.com
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Flash Poll - Relocate the Nats in 2010?
Jerry Budd had a good suggestion in running 4 mini-contests for 6
rounds where each pilot would fly against their group for 6 straight
rounds and then the top 3 from each group would fly in the finals.
I'm leaning toward this because the current format does not work.
We also need to do something about FAI - because there isn't equal
exposure there either.
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 2:41 PM, John Fuqua <johnfuqua at embarqmail.com> wrote:
Every Nats I went to that had all events in 2 weeks ended up
screwing
Pattern out of time or space. It never failed. I am against
it even
thought I liked to go see other events. We cannot do a first rate
job when
we compete for runway space and days to fly.
I thought AMA wanted to reduce Nats costs. Moving them around does
not do
that if you look at history and read up you will find a consistent
comment
about reducing Nats costs. NPAC was fully funded by the pilots and
it cost
more than a typical Nats so factor that in.
No one has addressed the equal exposure to judges issues for the current
format yet and Mike's proposal does not correct that situation for
Masters.
I had one person suggest to me that if we continue to use the Matrix
system
that we take the top 3 pilots from each "Group" to a 3 round
finals. At
least then we have equal judging exposure and more or less equal weather
exposure per round.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
On Behalf Of Tony
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 2:56 PM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Flash Poll - Relocate the Nats in 2010?
That is a possibility also. AMA is thinking about returning the
NATS to a 2
week all-events NATS like used to be done. If all events are
together, HQ
can put all costs into one effort. If they are all split up, Each
group
would have more costs to deal with due to the fact that HQ can't send a
group of people to every site.
Tony Stillman, President
Radio South, Inc.
139 Altama Connector, Box 322
Brunswick, GA 31525
1-800-962-7802
www.radiosouthrc.com
________________________________
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
On Behalf Of Tim Taylor
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 3:39 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Flash Poll - Relocate the Nats in 2010?
It was done, It was called NPAC
Tim
--- On Thu, 7/30/09, Bill's Email <wemodels at cox.net>
wrote:
From: Bill's Email <wemodels at cox.net>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Flash Poll -
Relocate the Nats in
2010?
To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 2:06 PM
Why not allow the SIGS to do their own thing?
IMAC and NSRCA do not
need to share a site. The LSF can find a site for the soaring NATS. Pylon
knows what venues work for them and so on. FF can do their own thing as
well. Why tie soaring and FF together and so on??
Tony wrote:
Matt:
Yes, it is just difficult to tell if it is
actually feasible. The
problem is that it requires a large site for Pattern/Pylon/IMAC and will
require another large site for Soaring/Outdoor FF. It may be very
difficult
to actually find places that can handle this group.
Tony Stillman, President
Radio South, Inc.
139 Altama Connector, Box 322
Brunswick, GA 31525
1-800-962-7802
www.radiosouthrc.com <http://www.radiosouthrc.com/>
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