[NSRCA-discussion] Matrix improvements

Mon Aug 3 13:27:19 AKDT 2009

Everybody I judged was a somebody.  I thought you flew very well and thought I scored you as such.  9th or 10th in that bunch was quite an achievement.  It was the best Masters bunch I have ever seen.

mike

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of krishlan fitzsimmons
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 3:50 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matrix improvements

I agree Mark. 100%...

I'm a try to win guy normally, but for my 1st and 2nd nats, the finals is good IMO as I haven't paid my dues, and am a nobody. I guess I'm just not used to not being judged equally. Something I will have to get used to if I want to continue to go to the nats. 

Chris 

--- On Mon, 8/3/09, Atwood, Mark <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com> wrote:

From: Atwood, Mark <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matrix improvements
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 1:32 PM

I’d argue there are two groups of people that go to the nats. One group to try and win, the other to see their general placing and enjoy the social environment of a week playing with toy airplanes. 

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of krishlan fitzsimmons
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 3:53 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matrix improvements

Equal exposure takes time we usually don’t have. We lower the cut-off point to ensure that the top fliers in contention for winning make the finals.

Then why does anyone go to the nats. Shouldn't only the top flyers go? Image removed by sender.haha

On another note, who fly's morning's next year. LMAO.. lol Image removed by sender.Image removed by sender.

I'm starting to get a laugh out of the nats.. lol

Chris 

--- On Mon, 8/3/09, Atwood, Mark <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com> wrote:

From: Atwood, Mark <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matrix improvements
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 12:28 PM

As someone who’s goal this year was to make the FAI Semi Finals, I understand your point completely.

The problem is that all you’re really doing by changing systems is shifting the accuracy from spots 6,7 & 8 to 11,12 & 13. Bad seeding will still result in those positions being a coin toss. An unknown flyer, or one that has not been to the Nationals in years, does not usually get “seeded” and can mess up the whole game (with regard to that 12th spot…not as far as picking a champion or even the top 6). 

Bottom line, anything but equal exposure will always make the cut-off positions subject to error. Equal exposure takes time we usually don’t have. We lower the cut-off point to ensure that the top fliers in contention for winning make the finals. 

I’m not really sure what else can be done.

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of krishlan fitzsimmons
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 3:00 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matrix improvements

My opinion may be a little different, but similar Mark. 
An example, Mike Mueller flew against Tony all week. Flew excellent, but didn't make the finals. My opinion, he should have. The way our system works (or doesn't work) caused this IMO. Mike, like myself and many others, spent a lot on the nats, and if it isn't fair, why go? Well, it's a great time for sure. And it's great to see all you guys! But we need a system to allow us to be judged fairly. We would never run this kind of system at a local contest, so why do we do it at the nats, our most prestigious contest? Could you see it at a local? Ok, you two guys fly in front of those judges, and you other 2 guys fly in front of two other judges, and so on. Why did FAI want equal exposure this year? My guess is because they had less entries, yes, but because our system doesn't work right, and I'm sure they know it. Would the outcome have been different if they ran it different? Maybe, maybe not. But I sure feel the Masters outcome would have been had we had equal exposure. And if Intermediate, and Advanced would have had a finals, I feel the outcome may have changed a little. 

We discussed this some at the contest this weekend, and doing Jerry's system, with taking the top 3 in each group, then flying 3 and keeping the best 2 rounds would work pretty well, and not much more time. That way, the top 8 will make the finals regardless of their grouping inconsistencies. Unless we can get equal exposure like FAI did this year. That is the best system. Just a thought. 

Where I differ I think in our thoughts Mark, is that I go to try to make the finals. Then I would be satisfied. 8th place is good to me at the nats right now. Yes we are trying to pick a national champion. But to some of us lesser talented flyer's, we are battling for, and proud of 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th.  Image removed by sender.

In the long run, whatever happens, happens. The point of the whole discussion is to bring about new and possibly format changing ideas that we all may find hope in and try those ideas. Change is good sometimes. With the high amount of intelligence amongst our group, we ought to be able to figure out a way to do this IMO. 

Chris 

--- On Mon, 8/3/09, Atwood, Mark <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com> wrote:

From: Atwood, Mark <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matrix improvements
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 11:06 AM

This is really the ONLY issue at hand.  Proper seeding becomes vital to both formats.  In the Matrix system, two “weaker” (no bashing, just being honest) groups will normalize very high to one another on the day they fly against each other  knocking out some of the pilots from the other groups who are forced to always normalize against one of the stronger pilots (in this years case that was Arch and Frak).  

The 4 mini contests does a better job with the math (your at least not trying to force normalization with equal exposure) but in contrast, the idea of taking the top 2 or 3 from each group assumes that one group won’t have 4 of the best pilots.  Not the best assumption given the inconsistent attendance that many have at the nats.  No way to seed beyond the top 3-4 people that we have experience with.

In both cases…people have to stay true to the “Goal”.  Which is really to make sure that the top 3 guys make the finals.  We’re trying to pick the National Champion, not the 5,6,7 and 8th place guys.   Taking 8 to the finals in EITHER format does a good job of ensuring that the top 3 are in the finals and have a fair, well judged event to choose the champion.

I think any format we choose is likely to err when it comes to the 8,9,10 place individuals.  That would be a problem if we were only taking 3 to the finals.  The idea of taking 8 purposely mitigates that.

It’s even less of an issue in FAI where 20 fly in a full exposure format to choose the finalists and they still take 8 to choose the top guys.  

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Derek Koopowitz
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 1:57 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matrix improvements

Seeding would be very critical in this just like seeding is critical in the current matrix system as well.  I'll give you a good example... had Glen Watson showed up wouldn't that have affected some pilots in his group?  With Glen not being there that group became an "easy" group and the normalized scores reflected that relative to the other groups.  I'm not trying to diminish anyone's flying efforts here but I think the ED should adjust the flying groups based on attendance if necessary in order to level the playing field for everyone.

On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Mark Hunt <flyintexan at att.net> wrote:

I too would like to see an article on this.  No offense, but initially it is unclear to me how this would give any better exposure of pilots to the same judges/conditions than the current matrix system allows for.  Would seeding not become even more critical in this scenario?

Mark

  _____  

From: Anthony Romano <anthonyr105 at hotmail.com> 

To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org

Sent: Monday, August 3, 2009 11:56:34 AM
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Matrix improvements

Maybe Jerry could detail this in a Kfactor article. Perhaps could be used at locals to help with an oversized Masters group.

Anthony

  _____  

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 15:45:19 -0700
From: derekkoopowitz at gmail.com
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Flash Poll - Relocate the Nats in 2010?

Jerry Budd had a good suggestion in running 4 mini-contests for 6 rounds where each pilot would fly against their group for 6 straight rounds and then the top 3 from each group would fly in the finals.  I'm leaning toward this because the current format does not work.  We also need to do something about FAI - because there isn't equal exposure there either.

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 2:41 PM, John Fuqua <johnfuqua at embarqmail.com> wrote:

Every Nats I went to that had all events in 2 weeks ended up screwing
Pattern out of time or space.  It never failed.  I am against it even
thought I liked to go see other events.  We cannot do a first rate job when
we compete for runway space and days to fly.

I thought AMA wanted to reduce Nats costs.  Moving them around does not do
that if you look at history and read up you will find a consistent comment
about reducing Nats costs.  NPAC was fully funded by the pilots and it cost
more than a typical Nats so factor that in.

No one has addressed the equal exposure to judges issues for the current
format yet and Mike's proposal does not correct that situation for Masters.
I had one person suggest to me that if we continue to use the Matrix system
that we take the top 3 pilots from each "Group" to a 3 round finals.  At
least then we have equal judging exposure and more or less equal weather
exposure per round.

John

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org

[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Tony
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 2:56 PM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Flash Poll - Relocate the Nats in 2010?

That is a possibility also.  AMA is thinking about returning the NATS to a 2
week all-events NATS like used to be done.  If all events are together, HQ
can put all costs into one effort.  If they are all split up, Each group
would have more costs to deal with due to the fact that HQ can't send a
group of people to every site.

Tony Stillman, President

Radio South, Inc.

139 Altama Connector, Box 322

Brunswick, GA  31525

1-800-962-7802

 <http://www.radiosouthrc.com/> www.radiosouthrc.com

________________________________

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Tim Taylor
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 3:39 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Flash Poll - Relocate the Nats in 2010?

It was done, It was called NPAC

Tim

--- On Thu, 7/30/09, Bill's Email <wemodels at cox.net> wrote:

       From: Bill's Email <wemodels at cox.net>
       Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Flash Poll - Relocate the Nats in
2010?
       To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
       Date: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 2:06 PM

       Why not allow the SIGS to do their own thing? IMAC and NSRCA do not
need to share a site. The LSF can find a site for the soaring NATS. Pylon
knows what venues work for them and so on. FF can do their own thing as
well. Why tie soaring and FF together and so on??

       Tony wrote:

       Matt:
       Yes, it is just difficult to tell if it is actually feasible.  The
problem is that it requires a large site for Pattern/Pylon/IMAC and will
require another large site for Soaring/Outdoor FF.  It may be very difficult
to actually find places that can handle this group.

       Tony Stillman, President

       Radio South, Inc.

139 Altama Connector, Box 322

Brunswick, GA   31525

 1-800-962-7802

 <http://www.radiosouthrc.com/> www.radiosouthrc.com < <http://www.radiosouthrc.com/> http://www.radiosouthrc.com/>

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