[NSRCA-discussion] FAI flight time rule

Thu May 15 13:30:10 AKDT 2008

It sure sounds like a big-time loophole. No prescribed penalty for the touchdown exceeding 8 mins, as long as the schedule was done within 8 mins?! 

So F3A'ers out there can waffle after all, after they finish the schedule....or if the engine gets stuck at high revs, this rule loses zero points for that scenario.

-----Original Message-----

From: Earl Haury &lt;ejhaury at comcast.net&gt;

To: General pattern discussion &lt;nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org&gt;

Sent: Thu, 15 May 2008 10:26 am

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI flight time rule

Time expires @ 8 min or touchdown - whichever occurs first. Loophole? Sure looks like it to me - but, for now, that's the rule.

Earl

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Snaproll4 at aol.com 

To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 

Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 9:08 AM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI flight time rule

OK. So the 3 minute start time is part of the 8 minute total time.  The portion of the flight between the last maneuver and the touch down is the most likely place for the time limit to expire.  How can the time limit expire at touchdown when you can't penalize the pilot after the last maneuver?  Is this a loophole in the way the rule is written?

In a message dated 5/15/2008 9:37:19 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ejhaury at comcast.net writes:

Troy is correct. Flight time starts when pilot is instructed to start, must be in air within 3 minutes and total time is 8 minutes with flight time ending at touch-down. However - there's no penalty prescribed for going over the 8 minutes after the last scored maneuver, as landing is no longer judged. 

Other than time to get in air, there's no requirements for take-off (no more procedure turn). One may choose to take-off opposite the direction of flight and / or land opposite take-off direction. In a quick look, I don't find where hot-dogging is specifically covered - however, the "unsportsman like behavior" section or "unsafe flying" of the general rules might possibly be invoked. 

These and several other detail changes in the F3A rules are the reason folks are required to re-cert for judging F3A.

Earl

----- Original Message ----- 

From: george w. kennie 

To: General pattern discussion 

Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 7:52 AM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI flight time rule

Wow !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,........Sounds like not even a penalty for "hot-dogging" after the final maneuver !  ARE YOU SURE , Troy ?????????

Me

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Troy Newman 

To: General pattern discussion 

Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 1:34 AM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI flight time rule

The penalty for going over time is all scored figures after time has elapsed get a score of zero. The flight is not a zero...Just those figures not completed.

SO once you exit the box all figures are complete....If you are still not on the ground there would be no penalty per the rules even if 8mins has expired

Only if you were not "out of the box" yet when the time expired you would get zeros on all figures not completed.

Which by the way in F3A you are not required to call entering or leaving the box. So if you complete the last figure and have the 15meter of straight flight wings level...you are done....After than you can take as much time as you like to land and that would even include go arounds...the rule doesn't say you can't and there is no penalty for it. The landing score is gone so you didn't violate the landing sequence. Before a go around was a zero score because it didn't follow the landing sequence. There is no more landing sequence. Even applying the AMA rule for extra passes because the FAI book is silent you could not zero any of the figures, as the AMA rules state the next maneuver gets a zero. Since all maneuvers are already scored there is nothing to zero and you can't go backwards into the sequence and start taking zeros on figures completed properly under the rules.

Troy Newman

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave

Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 8:52 PM

To: 'General pattern discussion'

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI flight time rule

Jeff,

10 minutes for schedules with 23 maneuvers is not much different than 8 minutes for schedules with 19 maneuvers (including takeoff and landing).  With the older P schedule, it was not difficult to exceed 10 minutes if the takeoff and landing sequences were very large and slow (1 minute for takeoff seq, 45 sec to land – pretty easy to save 30 seconds on these alone), and the sequence was big and relaxed.  Now, the Prelim sequences are 19 maneuvers (as are the finals sequences) – which means about 90 seconds less airtime – so dropping the clock from 10 to 8 minutes is not a biggy.

My understanding is that the Prelim sequences were shorted to shorten the duration of the Prelims at the Worlds – 2 minutes x 4 rounds x 100 pilots makes a huge difference.

Regards,

Dave Lockhart

DaveL322 at comcast.net

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Hill

Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 11:33 PM

To: NSRCA Mailing List

Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI flight time rule

While reading up on the new FAI rules I came upon the following paragraphs regarding flight time:

from Section 5.1.11

If there is a frequency conflict, the competitor must be allowed a maximum of one 

minute for a radio check before the start of the 3 minute starting time. The timer will audibly notify 

the competitor when the minute is finished and immediately start timing the 3-minutes starting time. 

The starting time ceases when the model aircraft commences its take-off roll. The timing device is re-started when 

the model aircraft commences its take-off roll, and time will stop when the model aircraft first 

touches the runway after completion of the flight. The total flight time allowed is 8 minutes. 

from Section 5.1.12

 The competitor has eight minutes to complete the flight; timing to start when the flight line 

official gives the signal to the competitor to start his model aircraft  and ending when the model 

aircraft first touches the runway after completing the flight. 

5.1.11 seems to say that the competitor gets 8 minutes from the time the TO roll starts. 5.1.12 says the competitor gets 8 minutes from the time s/he is told to start the model aircraft. 

If it is 8 minutes total that seems short to me because someone could spend 3 minutes of the time getting the engine started and only have 5 for the flight. I know sequences are shorter now, but, we've had pilots exceed 10 minutes at the Nats so I would think 2 fewer minutes would make even the shortest sequences tough to do. 

Any rules gurus out there want to comment? Perhaps electric fliers are getting a break after losing out on the batteries-as-fuel issue. 

Jeff Hill

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