[NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
vicenterc at comcast.net
vicenterc at comcast.net
Tue Mar 25 02:11:28 AKDT 2008
Chris,
Where you have the incidences and the TL now? I forgot. Probably the main problem was too tail heavy. I know that you have been moving the stab. also. Where is now? I assume that you are referencing the belly pan floor.
--
Vicente "Vince" Bortone
-------------- Original message --------------
From: krishlan fitzsimmons <homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com>
Will make for an interesting comparison. Just remember this, I did have a little extra up thrust and I had 3/4 degree positive when I started this if I'm remembering correctly. But my cg was too far back. I think I had it at 1/4" in front of the tube.
vicenterc at comcast.net wrote:
Chris,
I will try to fly this weekend the electric Abbra with the new conditions that will make it closer to the YS version. I increased the incidence from 0.4 to almost double. I also moved the TL from negative to around 0.5 degree positive. I will let you know the results. As you can see, the YS version is better and has more incidence and TL was a little positive. Therefore, we will know if we are going in the right direction.
As for the snaps, I think we've got that taken care of. My inverted snaps have never looked so good. Both snaps hold the line pretty nice also. Not sure what wing I have, but my trailing edge starts at maybe 3/16" thick or so, and tapers down slightly at the tip. My Abbra is less than two years old..
Thanks,
C
Snaps. I do know that there are two version of Abbra wings. When I had the mid-air last year at the Nats I have the opportunity to compare the old version wings with new version. The trailing edge of new wing is thicker. Clearly, they cut the wing ~1/8" along the trailing edge. I noticed that the new version of wings snap better. Therefore, if you have the old version the fix is not that difficult. Just cut around 1/8" in the trailing edge. I did this to make an old wing and a new wing compatible.
Another important note. Old version of Abbras came with more than one degree positive incidence. I built one for a friend with a gasoline engine. I flew the plane two or three times and I can not remember the trimming results. Unfortunately, my friend is not flying RC anymore and sold the plane.
Good luck,
--
Vicente "Vince" Bortone
-------------- Original message --------------
From: krishlan fitzsimmons <homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com>
Vicente,
Not sure on the degree's, I'll check tonight though.. You're right about percentages, doesn't mean much really, the degree's do. I have a budd meter, I can tell how many degree's pretty easy..
As for my changes today, well, I tried the 1 1/4 and went back to 1". Not much difference between the two, and also from 1 1/2 besides a little less up ele trim needed at 1". My up ele mix for knife remained the same.
Time to try something different I suppose..
C
vicenterc at comcast.net wrote:
Chris,
I measured the mixing angles using the CRC tool. The mixes angles are lower than 0.5 degrees (roll coupling). Difficult to get more precision with this tool. Pitch coupling is little over 0.5 degrees but less than one degree. The precision of this tool is that not good but at least you have an idea of the actual amounts. It is my guess that mixing is relative amount if we give %. For example, if you increased the aileron throws from 9 to 18 degrees, I will expect the mixing to be reduced to half. Am I correct in this assumption? Down line is so small that it is difficult to say something.
--
Vicente "Vince" Bortone
-------------- Original message --------------
From: krishlan fitzsimmons <homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com>
I just checked and my Abbra cg is now 1 1/4" in front of the tube. Not the center. I tried it at 1 1/2 yesterday. Snaps were pretty good using Bryan and Nats recommendation of more aileron. I did the 18 degrees Bryan recommended. Now I am at least a half inch in front of everyone else's Abbra that I have seen (which is anywhere from 1/4 to 3/4". I didn't notice any difference from 1" to 1 1/2" with my knife rudder - ele mix. It stayed at 10%. What I did notice, and my reason for retrying the 1 1/4 today, is that my downlines had a more severe pull to the canopy. Not sure why. Maybe because the more nose weight I put in it, the more up ele trim it needs? It now has a little over 1/8" up trim in the ele's.
The pull to the canopy only in dowlines, and the up ele mix in both knife's, plus in a left rudder knife, the tail seems to dip alot and it takes more rudder at the 1 1/2 cg.
Heading out now to retry.
I hope you're all getting some joy out of my misery.. lol
Just kidding of course... I had it set up so bad a few weeks ago I didn't even want to go fly it. Now, I'm out almost every day to try something different..
Thanks,
C
vicenterc at comcast.net wrote:
Nat,
What 1/2 T/L means? The stab in my Abbras are fixed at ~0.4 degrees negative. Could be this part of the problem?
Thanks,
--
Vicente "Vince" Bortone
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Nat Penton" <natpenton at centurytel.net>
Cris
The problem with the Abbra is a trim flaw, not a design flaw.
Your mix switch arrangement is only good to provide an excuse - you need the KE mix active for rolls, also. Its a distraction you don't want.
Eliminating the up elevator trim will slightly increase the up KE mix, not decrease. If you put the wing and TL as I suggested you will be closer to trim and you may not need to move the stab. Nat
----- Original Message -----
From: krishlan fitzsimmons
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
Nat,
At this point, I have my mixing on a switch. I have level flight rudder correction mix on a switch as active, and if I flip it, it goes to knife mix. Until I get rid of more mix I will continue to use it this way.
My stab is adjustable, but it's not easy as I had to make 2 little carbon donuts to go around the front carbon stab tube, and screw it in with two screws on each side. By elongating the screw holes I made it adjustable. I have to take the stabs off to do this.
I'm wondering, will some of the up ele mix in knife go away when i adjust my stabs to compensate for my up ele trim?
I'm not sure if it's a design flaw with the Abbra, but it seems as everyone has about 8 10% up ele mix in their knife's from what I've read with this ship. I can easily live with it as with the mix, it fly's knife's the length of the field with ease now. But I'd like to keep on making adjustments now that I have a good reference point to start from.
Thanks and Happy Easter..
C
Nat Penton <natpenton at centurytel.net> wrote:
Cris
With 10+% KE mix you will get a pitch change every time you make a heading correction.
----- Original Message -----
From: krishlan fitzsimmons
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
You guys have buttons on your radio???
I had a bunch of little silver rods sticking out all over mine, so I broke them all off as they were always getting in the way..
As for tonights session, well very light wind to no wind.. Perfect weather.. 73 degrees, no clouds.. Man I love California for that.. Oh where was I?
Well, I added the 1/2 degree of down back as suggested and I really liked it. I also moved the cg forward, and I really liked that also. I believe I am more nose heavy than you Vicente, I think it was a little more than an inch in front of the tube, and definitely more than Jerry... It flew even better than it did yesterday!! I don't think it's ever flown this good. I could stop now with the adjustments, but I think I will move forward and try to get rid of some more of the up ele mix in knife. I thought I was at around 15% yesterday, one was 15%, the other side 18%, granted, this is down from the high 20's.. lol.. Now, I'm at 10% on both sides.. And I'm more nose heavy than you guys with Abbra's it seems. I like the feel of the cg.. It feels good where it is.. It is carrying a little up trim in the ele's still (which I expected with moving the cg forward). So that tells me I need to go down with the front of the stabs to center them, but I will wait till I'm done. ! ;! ;! ; St ill
pulls a hair to the canopy after about half of the downline. Not much though. Up lines, and 45's were great.. Inverted 45 drops off as expected. Inverted felt good with the 5% extra down ele that I added.
Snaps, well, the positive is good, just fast (which its always been). The negative, better, still a small hesitation to start, then speeding up. Rotation stops good, but not great. Now I am no where near the 18 degrees of aileron throw you recommend Bryan, I am at 12 degrees at this point. 8 degrees regular. I will add some more throw for tomorrow's (after the easter bunny) session.
Move the wings ? Or should I go even more noseheavy to create more up in the tail, meaning less up in knife?
When I left the field today, I was shocked with how well it flew.. Just need to lock in the snaps I think..
Thanks for the help.
Chris
John Pavlick <jpavlick at idseng.com> wrote:
Nat,
You use the snap buttons? I'm shocked. :)
John Pavlick
http://www.idseng.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Nat Penton
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
Cris
1. If there was a way I could get planform dimensions ( wing and stab only), I could tell you where to put the CG - and, we could eliminate that variable
2. Use the snap button until you determine how to trim the snaps. THEN you can fly them. This CRAP about timing controll inputs is BS, unnessary, and one of your problems
I say go back to 3/4 positive on the wing and 1/2 positive on the T/L. This should eliminate most of the KE pitch mix and all of the downline mix.
Is the stab adjustable ? Nat
----- Original Message -----
From: krishlan fitzsimmons
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.f3a.us
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 11:22 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
Ok,
Well, I did feel I was a little tail heavy after thinking, so I moved my batteries to the forward position and went back to 1/2 degree positive.. What a huge difference that made.. Line's are better than they have ever been. I've always fought this plane in the wind, even on horizontal straight flights.. Today, horizontal lines were hands off.. And it was pretty windy.. Up lines were much easier to fly. Not sure if it pulls to the canopy up or down as it was windy. But it held the track better all the way around. The wind was straight down the runway, and the plane held it's distance almost by itself. Very little heading corrections were needed. Before, I've always seemed to be on the rudder.. Even without wind. I actually left the field and said, dang, that's the best this plane has ever flown.. Even told the wife!!
Snaps, well that's still the strange thing. Inverted snaps seem very sluggish, like I break it with down ele, then throw in the aileron and rudder, and you can see the break, then it starts to barrel, then it speeds up and can over rotate a little ( I added more aileron throw, and took out some elevator and rudder, seemed to help a little. Regular snaps are lightning fast, but they stop when I let go of the sticks. They'd be great if they weren't so fast. I usually use one dual rate switch which is for low and high rate. Never needed anything different. I think I may need to try an inverted snap dual rate and a regular snap dual rate on different switches. That'll be a fun one to remember.. lol
Oh, it carries a little up trim in the ele's now. My knife up elevator mix of 15% on both sides is still there, but the roll coupling changed a little.
I kinda liked how the cg felt, I gave myself 5 percent more down ele so my stick felt the same inverted. Still I think I'd like to try it a little further forward, but I feel it would be a mistake. I didn't change motor thrust yet as I wanted to see the difference of the cg and incidence change first. I did feel I had too much positive in the wings and that I was a little tailheavy.. That's why I said the honest setup of the plane last time.
So now I am, 0 downthrust, 1/2 pos wings, 0 stab. But it needs a little up trim. I liked the way it flew, and presented today (especially in the wind). Just didn't care for the snaps.
More tomorrow night if I can get out after the easter egg hunt, or Sunday after the race..
Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Chris
shinden1 at cox.net wrote:
Chris sorry I have not got back to you
I see you have 3/4 deg pos in the wings ,,thats too much!
too much pos inc, will have the same feeling and response as too much tail weight the rudder will make the nose pitch down in both normal flying or knife ,,,and even vertical lines because of the down elevator needed to trim the model
go to 1/2 pos. on the wings 1/2 deg down thrust ,,
and then move the c/g around till the left knife has no mix or very little is needed ,,and the inverted elevator and rolls feel good
every thing else will fall in place
any time you need up trim with left and right rudder input your tail heavy ,,or you have too much pos. inc in the wing
Bryan
---- krishlan fitzsimmons wrote:
> Bryan,
> I was hopeful to hear back from you on this before I made a change. No worries though, I k! ! ! now y ou are busy, and you've been a great help with all of us..
> So if I go cg forward, I will need less positive in the wings as I wil need up trim in the ele's, correct? Or should I add 1/2 degree of down thrust? After seeing my uplines and my horizontal lines, I don't think I need it. But, what do I know? lol
> I think the cg forward could help my snaps and my downlines. I love the way it flys inverted and rolling right now, but I need to change.. I'll try the cg forward and less positive.
>
> C
>
> vicenterc at comcast.net wrote:
> Chris,
>
> Very good information. How much right thrust? I think you are correct, move the CG a little more forward. It could help the snaps also.
>
> --
> Vicente "Vince" Bortone
>
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: krishlan fitzsimmons
> > Ok Bryan,
> >
> > Here's how I went out today and ma! n w! as ! I s upr ised, 0 degree down thrust, 0
> > stab, 3/4 positive in the wing.. Cg forward where Budd recommends. What a
> > difference.. I had a neutral elevator for the first time since I owned the plane
> > without adjusting things.. Uplines were good, downlines pulled to the canopy
> > still. Horizontal lines, the plane DID feel more locked into the line.. It's
> > never felt like that.. Mixing, well it still needed about 15% up mix in knifes,
> > down from 30% though. Inverted nearly hands off. 45 roll to inverted slowly
> > drops the nose. 45 downs are locked in. Snaps, well they suck for some reason. w
> > Not from this, but when I did cg, and other changes before, I changed throws cuz
> > the snaps sucked. It took alot more down ele, and aileron for inverted snaps..
> > And still, when I start the snap, it breaks, then slowly gets into the snap,
> > then speeds u! p too ! fast! c ausin g an overrotation. Regular snaps are now too fast
> > (easy to cure though with a different dual rate
> > setting).
> > I think my cg could go forward to help with the up ele needed in knife, and
> > also the pull to canopy on downlines maybe?? Or should I play with the wing
> > adjusters more?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > Nat Penton wrote:
> > Wayne
> > You missed the seminar - that was the rest room .
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Wayne Galligan
> > To: NSRCA Mailing List
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 10:21 AM
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
> >
> >
> > John Crapper was not the original inventor of the toilet. However Thomas
> > Crapper was one of the people that was responsible for i! t popul ar! ity. N! ot to < BR>> > sure where John L Crapper came from but the original inventor was John
> > Harington. So maybe that's how the "John" and the "Crapper" have been come to
> > be known as.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Wayne Galligan
> > To: NSRCA Mailing List
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 10:11 AM
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
> >
> >
> > Water Closet (WC) is a toilet that disposes of the waste by using water to
> > flush it through a drainpipe to another location. Modern toilets incorporate an
> > 'S' bend; this 'trap' creates a water seal which remains filled the 'S' bend
> > also provides siphon action which helps accelerate the flushing process. Water
> > filling up the bowl creates a high pressure area which forces the water past the
> > S bend. At the S bend ! when wa ter ! starts to move ! it crea tes a vacuum that pulls
> > the water and waste out of the toilet. When no more water is left then the air
> > stops the siphon or vacuum process. At that point the water that is going into
> > the bowl continues to fill up the bowl to equalize the bowl and the S bend. This
> > ends the cycle of one flush. Since there were no rooms designated for toilets
> > or crappers as they were called (named after John L Crapper, inventor of the
> > flush toilet) the term Water Closet was coined as homes that had the out houses
> > moved indoors were usually located in
> > closets in the home.
> >
> > Flush away............
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Karl G. Mueller
> > To: NSRCA Mailing List
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 10:45 AM
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
&! gt; > ;
! > &g t;
>! > V icente,
> >
> > "WC" actually is the short form of "Water Closet".
> > That's what the early Toilets were called.
> >
> > Karl G. Mueller
> > kgamueller at rogers.com
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: vicenterc at comcast.net
> > To: adriancwong at earthlink.net ; NSRCA Mailing List
> > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 10:04 PM
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
> >
> >
> > WC = toilet. I wonder how many went and check.
> >
> > --
> > Vicente "Vince" Bortone
> >
> > -------------- Original message --------------
> > From: adriancwong at earthlink.net
> > BODY { FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY:
> > Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff }
> > body{font-famil! y:
> > Gen! eva,Ari al,Helvetica,! sans-se rif;font-size:9pt;background-color: #ffffff;color:
> > black;} "WC", huh? I haven't heard that word since I've moved back from Hong
> > Kong in the early 90's.
> >
> > May be I should try the knife edge on a vertical down line, instead of doing it
> > horizontally?
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: vicenterc at comcast.net
> > Sent: Mar 17, 2008 7:00 PM
> > To: adriancwong at earthlink.net, NSRCA Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
> >
> > That is called Coriolis accerelation. That is why the water closets flush to
> > the right in the North hemisphere and to the left in the South hemisphere
> > (looking the water closet from above). If going down straight you are close to
> > the ecuator. If this do not happens as des! cribed the water closet! needs to be
> &! gt; tri mmed.
> >
> > --
> > Vicente "Vince" Bortone
> >
> > -------------- Original message --------------
> > From: adriancwong at earthlink.net
> > I think Bryan is hiding in his wind tunnel trying to duplicate the same
> > condition.
> >
> > I don't think it was my digits. It's probably between the earth's gravitational
> > pull and soething in the northern hemisphere. I bet the plane will do the exact
> > opposite if I fly it in Australia ... .-)
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Derek Koopowitz
> > Sent: Mar 17, 2008 3:36 PM
> > To: NSRCA Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
> >
> > I think he wishes it was his thumbs... :)
> >
> > The push to the belly was! more t han the pull to t! he cano py... the pull was
! > &g t; very slight.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 3:24 PM, krishlan fitzsimmons
> > wrote:
> > I was going to tell Adrian his thumbs cause this..
> > Just kidding of course Adrian..
> >
> > C
> >
> > Nat Penton wrote:
> >
> > Where is Bryan when you need him
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From:
> > To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
> > Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 10:17 PM
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
> >
> >
> > > Bryan,
> > >
> > > What cause the plane to pull to the belly on one rudder, and to the canopy
> > > on the other rudder during knife edge.
> > >
> > > Thx,
> > >
> > > Adrian
>! ; > >
> > &g! t; ---- -Original Message-----
>! > & gt;>From: shinden1 at cox.net
> > >>Sent: Mar 16, 2008 7:17 PM
> > >>To: NSRCA Mailing List
> >
> > >>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
> > >>
> > >>Lance you need to find out exactly where the wing inc . is.
> > >>I think if you move your c/g back a little it will help take some of the
> > >>up trim out But you prob need more pos inc, in the wing so we need to know
> > >>where you are at right now to determine exactly where to go
> > >>Bryan
> >
> >
> > >>---- Lance Van Nostrand wrote:
> > >>> Bryan,
> > >>>
> > >>> The discussion list moves faster than I can try this stuff out. Too bad
> > >>> I
> > >>> have! to wor k...
> > >>&! gt;
> > >>> I first only ! moved m y CG forward significantly and have improved overall
> > >>> tracking. It was windy Saturday and wind penetration were good.
> > >>> Bryan's
> > >>> suggestion was correct on CG movement to make this improvement. However
> > >>> with the forward CG (and resultant uptrim) it pulls to the canopy
> > >>> slightly
> > >>> on downlines. At this point I noticed that during inverted flight,
> > >>> rudder
> > >>> input caused a pull to the belly (plane rose). This was weird. I then
> > >>> raised the incidence 2 turns and it fixed the inverted flight problem
> > >>> but it
> > >>> seemed to make the canopy pul! l worse . Interestingly, KE flight was not
> > >>> noticeably affected.!
> ; > >>>
> > ! >> ;> The other affect is that inverted! 45 dow nlines drop toward earth faster
> > >>> than
> > >>> upright 45s (which track nicely). Before this change, both 45s were
> > >>> fine.
> > >>>
> > >>> Is this the expectation?
> > >>>
> > >>> --Lance
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> > >>_______________________________________________
> > >>NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > >>NSRCA-disc! ussion@ l ists.nsrca.org
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> > &g! t;
& gt; > > _______________________! _______ _________________
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> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
> >
> >
> >
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>! ; >
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> >
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> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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>
> From: krishlan fitzsimmons
> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008! 23:24: 07 +0000
>
> Ok Bryan,
> !
> ; Here's how I went out today and man was I suprised,! 0 degr ee down thrust, 0 stab, 3/4 positive in the wing.. Cg forward where Budd recommends. What a difference.. I had a neutral elevator for the first time since I owned the plane without adjusting things.. Uplines were good, downlines pulled to the canopy still. Horizontal lines, the plane DID feel more locked into the line.. It's never felt like that.. Mixing, well it still needed about 15% up mix in knifes, down from 30% though. Inverted nearly hands off. 45 roll to inverted slowly drops the nose. 45 downs are locked in. Snaps, well they suck for some reason. Not from this, but when I did cg, and other changes before, I changed throws cuz the snaps sucked. It took alot more down ele, and aileron for inverted snaps.. And still, when I start the snap, it breaks, then slowly gets into the snap, then speeds up too fast causing an overrotation. Regular snaps are now t! oo fast (easy to cure though with a different dual rate> se
tting).
> I think my cg could go forward to h! elp wit h the up ele needed in knife, and also the pull to canopy on downlines maybe?? Or should I play with the wing adjusters more?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>
>
> Nat Penton wrote:
> Wayne
> You missed the seminar - that was the rest room .
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Wayne Galligan
> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 10:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
>
>
> John Crapper was not the original inventor of the toilet. However Thomas Crapper was one of the people that was responsible for it popularity. Not to sure where John L Crapper came from but the original inventor was John Harington. So maybe that's how the "John" and the "Crapper" have been come to be known ! as.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Wayn! e Galli gan
> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> Sent: Tuesday! , March 18, 2008 10:11 AM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
>
>
> Water Closet (WC) is a toilet that disposes of the waste by using water to flush it through a drainpipe to another location. Modern toilets incorporate an 'S' bend; this 'trap' creates a water seal which remains filled the 'S' bend also provides siphon action which helps accelerate the flushing process. Water filling up the bowl creates a high pressure area which forces the water past the S bend. At the S bend when water starts to move it creates a vacuum that pulls the water and waste out of the toilet. When no more water is left then the air stops the siphon or vacuum process. At that point the water that is going into the bowl continues to fill up the bowl to equalize the bowl and the S bend. This ends the cycle of one flush. Since there ! were no rooms designated for toilets or crappers as they were c! alled ( named after John L Crapper, inventor of the flush toilet) th! e term Water Closet was coined as homes that had the out houses moved indoors were usually located in
> closets in the home.
>
> Flush away............
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Karl G. Mueller
> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 10:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
>
>
> Vicente,
>
> "WC" actually is the short form of "Water Closet".
> That's what the early Toilets were called.
>
> Karl G. Mueller
> kgamueller at rogers.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: vicenterc at comcast.net
> To: adriancwong at earthlink.net ; NSRCA Mailing List
> Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 10:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
> >
> WC = toilet. I wonder how many went and check. >
> --
> Vicente "Vince" Bortone
>
> -! ------- ------ Original message --------------
> From: adriancwong at earthlink.net
> BODY { FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff } body{font-family: Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:9pt;background-color: #ffffff;color: black;} "WC", huh? I haven't heard that word since I've moved back from Hong Kong in the early 90's.
>
> May be I should try the knife edge on a vertical down line, instead of doing it horizontally?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vicenterc at comcast.net
> Sent: Mar 17, 2008 7:00 PM
> To: adriancwong at earthlink.net, NSRCA Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
>
> That is called Coriolis accerelation. That is why the water closets! flush to the right in the North hemisphere and to the left in the S! outh he misphere (looking the water closet from above). If going down str! aight y ou are close to the ecuator. If this do not happens as described the water closet needs to be trimmed.
>
> --
> Vicente "Vince" Bortone
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: adriancwong at earthlink.net
> I think Bryan is hiding in his wind tunnel trying to duplicate the same condition.
>
> I don't think it was my digits. It's probably between the earth's gravitational pull and soething in the northern hemisphere. I bet the plane will do the exact opposite if I fly it in Australia ... .-)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Derek Koopowitz
> Sent: Mar 17, 2008 3:36 PM
> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
>
> I think he wishes it was his thumbs..! . :)
>
> The push to the belly was more than the pull to t! he cano py... the pull was very slight.
>
>
> On Mon, Ma! r 17, 2 008 at 3:24 PM, krishlan fitzsimmons wrote:
> I was going to tell Adrian his thumbs cause this..
> Just kidding of course Adrian..
>
> C
>
> Nat Penton wrote:
>
> Where is Bryan when you need him
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
> Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 10:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
>
>
> > Bryan,
> >
> > What cause the plane to pull to the belly on one rudder, and to the canopy
> > on the other rudder during knife edge.
> >
> > Thx,
> >
> > Adrian
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >>F! rom: sh inden1 at cox.net
> >>Sent: Mar 16, 2008 7:17 PM
> &! gt;> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>
> >>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-di! scussio n] triangulation trimming
> >>
> >>Lance you need to find out exactly where the wing inc . is.
> >>I think if you move your c/g back a little it will help take some of the
> >>up trim out But you prob need more pos inc, in the wing so we need to know
> >>where you are at right now to determine exactly where to go
> >>Bryan
>
>
> >>---- Lance Van Nostrand wrote:
> >>> Bryan,
> >>>
> >>> The discussion list moves faster than I can try this stuff out. Too bad
> >>> I
> >>> have to work...
> >>>
> >>> I first only moved my CG forward significantly and have improved overall
> >>> tracking. It was windy S! aturday and wind penetration were good.
> >>> Bryan's
> >! ;>&g t; suggestion was correct on CG movement to make this improvement. However!
> ; >>> with the forward CG (and resultant uptrim) it pulls to the canopy
> >>> slightly
> >>> on downlines. At this point I noticed that during inverted flight,
> >>> rudder
> >>> input caused a pull to the belly (plane rose). This was weird. I then
> >>> raised the incidence 2 turns and it fixed the inverted flight problem
> >>> but it
> >>> seemed to make the canopy pul! l worse . Interestingly, KE flight was not
> >>> noticeably affected.
> >>>
> >>> The other affect is that inverted 45 downlines drop toward earth faster
> >>> than
> >>> upright 45s (which track nicely). Before this change, both 45s were
! === mes sage truncated ===
Chris
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From: "Nat Penton" <natpenton at centurytel.net>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.f3a.us>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 17:03:41 +0000
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From: krishlan fitzsimmons <homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com>
To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 21:55:59 +0000
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From: krishlan fitzsimmons <homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com>
To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 02:53:12 +0000
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