[NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trim
Matthew Frederick
mjfrederick at cox.net
Mon Mar 10 02:37:28 AKDT 2008
That would be cheating. If you have to overcome the problems of an airframe
by using all those conditional mixes, you need a new airframe.
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Oddino" <joddino at socal.rr.com>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2008 12:26 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trim
> 1) Low throttle to down elevator mix. About 2% only at low end.
> 2) Rudder to Elevator mix.
>
> Jim O
>
>
> On Mar 9, 2008, at 12:07 AM, Keith Black wrote:
>
>> OK Bryan, I'll take you up on your offer.
>>
>> Plane:
>>
>> Beryll (you've had experience last year with Brett's)
>>
>> Problems:
>>
>> 1) Pull to canopy on downline
>>
>> 2) Tuck to belly on knife edge.
>>
>> (haven't noticed a pull to the canopy on upline, but really didn't
>> test
>> that closely)
>>
>> History:
>>
>> Initial setup incidence was .5+, CG about 175 mm behind leading
>> edge. First
>> flights felt very nose heavy, when rolling inverted seemed to need
>> lots of
>> down elevator, also the 45 deg up then roll to inverted test dropped
>> nose
>> more quickly than I like. Also as noted above it pull to belly on
>> knife edge
>> and pulled to canopy on downline.
>>
>> To help solve tuck to belly in knife edge I increased the incidence
>> as much
>> as I could (without a dremmel) probably a 1.5 to 2 turns. Also moved
>> CG back
>> about 3/8" or so to help nose heavy feel. Changes improved nose
>> heavy feel
>> and seemed to improve downline pull to canopy a bit, but it needs
>> further
>> improvement as it still pulls to canopy in dive. I ended up mixing
>> out pull
>> to belly in knife edge as the adjustments didn't help that.
>>
>> So what do you suggest? Seems like the move of the CG helped the
>> inverted
>> flight and transition to inverted on slow roll. I'm concerned that
>> increasing the incidence more and moving CG forward may fix belly
>> tuck in
>> dive but would lead to nose heavy feel of inverted flight again. I
>> know can
>> increase the down elevator (or remove expo) to offset the nose heavy
>> feel,
>> but I don't like the transition from upright flight to knife edge to
>> require
>> so much top rudder that it throws off the track when at the 1/8
>> point of the
>> roll.
>>
>> What say you Sensei?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Keith
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <shinden1 at cox.net>
>> To: "xvcNSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2008 10:24 PM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trim
>>
>>
>>> thanks Lance
>>> we all know I`m a terrible writer and thats part of my reasoning here
>>> I have great respect for Matt and his abilities he is a great
>>> modeler and
>>> designer.
>>> I am trying to use past experience when helping with these issues
>>> as a
>>> guide to how far out of line these things can get because of a
>>> misunderstanding that leads into a poor fix
>>> or a modeler who is not up to the task and trys to take the shortcut
>>> ,,,there are no shortcuts
>>> I would be willing to bet 98% of pattern fliers don`t even know
>>> what their
>>> down thust is and have never measured it. 1deg down is a lot.
>>> and most could not find a baseline to start with as a watermark for
>>> later
>>> measurements
>>> I was trying to point out that it should be a method of fine tuning
>>> rather
>>> than using it to steer a wayward airplane into submission.
>>> The wing is the most important ,powerful and effective way to adjust
>>> flight path ,,, airfoil ,stab placement , engine thrust ,,are way
>>> down the
>>> list in importance as seen with a foamy,,
>>>
>>> First things first ,,get the wing inc right THEN,, the ac/g ..you
>>> would be
>>> surprised at how for off you can fly c/g and get away with it ,,,
>>> What Matt and I call pulling to the Canopy and what Joe Blow calles
>>> it i`m
>>> sure ,, are two different things.{BTW I would bet most of the
>>> fliers out
>>> there with differential fix problems ,,are there becuase of an up
>>> line
>>> pull,
>>> usually because your flying a tail heavy airplane } if ou use tail
>>> weight
>>> to create a pos angle of attack lots of little problems arise you
>>> have to
>>> use inc to creat the lift and C/g to adjust the feel
>>> earlier I was trying to make the bigger picture nothing against
>>> what Matt
>>> was offering ,,,,
>>>
>>> I disagree there is more than one way to trim there is only one way
>>> our accepted outcome is the difference
>>> I would like to say I`m probably more hard headed than the Next
>>> guy , so
>>> I stick to my guns till proven wrong but accept it when I can be
>>> proven
>>> wrong,, ,, after designing over 15 pattern airplanes and keeping
>>> notes
>>> ,,, my outcome notes all say the same thing in the end ,it never
>>> changes
>>> ,,even when I get a bright idea to change or tweak the setup it
>>> leads me
>>> back to where I started.
>>> After watching Arch fly his Black magic in the bumpy 25mph winds in
>>> Crowly
>>> La. A smoking performance ,,,I might add
>>> the BM appeared to be on rails then,,watching my own airplane dance
>>> around
>>> I realized something I knew But had ignored ,,,it made me go back
>>> to the
>>> notes where I found the answer ,,, it never changed!!
>>> the BM was a great design Properly trimmed BUT,
>>> I,, had been trying to adjust upline canopy pull with engine thrust
>>> and
>>> tail weight ,,,,I don`t have the Luxury of calling the designer and
>>> asking
>>> where to put the C/G and wing Inc ,,,I have to find it <G>
>>> when I realized it needed more wing inc less tail weight and less
>>> down
>>> thrust it reaffirmed my notes and when the next time I flew in those
>>> conditions it proved me right you have to balance all these things
>>> The airplane flys around the wing ,,,,let the airplane talk to
>>> you ,,be
>>> honest in you evaluations accept nothing but absolute perfection it
>>> is
>>> attainable
>>>
>>> would anyone like to try an onlist diagnosis of their airplane?
>>> you tell me the Set up ,,they must be very Accurate give me the
>>> Symptoms
>>> ,,and I`ll provide the cure
>>> you tell us what is happening with the input ,,,BEWARE it can be
>>> tedious
>>> and it might include using a saw!!<G>
>>> any takers ??
>>> Bryan
>>> sorry to be so longwinded
>>> ---- Lance Van Nostrand <patterndude at tx.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> Bryan,
>>> I have been anticipating your response but now it seems it won't be
>>> coming
>>> soon. Maybe we can take this offline. There's no way anyone could
>>> interpret my response as being argumentative and I know your are
>>> tough
>>> enough to take a few pin pricks without flinching. Certainly I
>>> have my
>>> own
>>> experiences and opinions but those are completely set aside. I
>>> believe
>>> there are always at least 10 correct answers to any modeling
>>> question but
>>> each answer is right within its own context.
>>>
>>> In other words, I start from 0-0 and have my trim process advance
>>> from
>>> there
>>> and usually get very good results. I think, if I remember
>>> correctly your
>>> old KF article and our live discussions, you start from 1/2 degree
>>> positive
>>> inc in wing and stab and advance from there. Since I know your
>>> path is
>>> different from mine I am trying to learn from you. this is why I
>>> question
>>> and ask for deeper explanation. Maybe it's just not there. The
>>> answer
>>> might be "I never tested in a wind tunnel, can't explain why it
>>> works, but
>>> it does so just try it and enjoy." But I hate to see you bow out
>>> when
>>> someone asks for more details. that makes Krishlan's comment seem
>>> relevant
>>> when, knowing how much you help others and contribute to this
>>> sport, it
>>> shouldn't be.
>>>
>>> --Lance
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: <shinden1 at cox.net>
>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2008 5:32 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trim
>>>
>>>
>>>> Ok Matt
>>>> I accept, your probably right ..
>>>>
>>>> I will now bow out of the discussion it`s not going anywhere and I`m
>>>> waiting my time trying to inform, it seems all the people I`ve
>>>> helped
>>>> accomplish what I`m preaching have quit the sport or they are
>>>> scared to
>>>> write !!
>>>> I`ll leave you with this ,
>>>> demand of perfection is different by each persons ability and goals,
>>>> sometimes we deceive ourselves in thinking we kow it all or
>>>> we get caught up in out wording every one and talking nonsense ,,
>>>> then no
>>>> one gets anything out of the conversation
>>>> and then, you die of a thousand pin pricks<G>
>>>> I can remember sharing pos inc setup with Nat on numerous
>>>> occasions and
>>>> Nat out worded me and proved me wrong on paper and you know he
>>>> can ,, in
>>>> a
>>>> Popeye Fried chicken House of all places,
>>>> However I find out years Later he now uses My setup I`m proud <G>
>>>> ok ,I`ll stop beating a dead horse I know better than to start this
>>>>
>>>> carry on
>>>> Bryan
>>>>
>>>> ---- rcmaster199 at aol.com wrote:
>>>>> Bryan,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I respectfully disagree on the upline, full power issue. The
>>>>> downline is
>>>>> a totally different trim situation because the vectors involved are
>>>>> different
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> MattK
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Nat Penton
>>>>>
>>>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 7:16 pm
>>>>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trim
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm thinking, I'm thinking ----- Original Message ----- From:
>>>>> shinden1 at cox.net> To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
>>>>> nsrca-discussion at lists.f3a.us> Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 1:53
>>>>> PM
>>>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trim > Matt, I refer
>>>>> back to
>>>>> my earlier post > thrust is not the issue. > wing inc. will
>>>>> always
>>>>> trump thrust,, in power and influence over vertical > lines. >
>>>>> thrust
>>>>> is a" very fine tune" issue it should not be used to adjust >
>>>>> tracking
>>>>> issues > > jump in Nat ,, why do you not need down thrust on your
>>>>> design?? > Bryan > ---- rcmaster199 at aol.com wrote: >> If the
>>>>> model
>>>>> pulls to canopy on a�FULL POWER�vertical upline and you >>
>>>>> reduce
>>>>> downthrust, the problem will worsen. You need to add downthrust
>>>>> >>
>>>>> (about 1 degree initially, and more if needed). I would not mess
>>>>> with
>>>>> CG,
>>>>>>> at least not yet. >> >> >> � >> >> >> Horizontal flight
>>>>>>> places
>>>>> quite a load on the wing....the wing must lift >> the load
>>>>> accordingly.
>>>>> Vertical flight removes the load therefore whatever >> trim was
>>>>> found
>>>>> in horizontal flight will affect the vertical flight. The >>
>>>>> simplest
>>>>> fix is downthrust addition for the condition Mike references,
>>>>> >> but
>>>>> assumes that the model is close to begin with. >> >> >> �
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> Downline flight (NO POWER) is a totally different trim scenario
>>>>> and may
>>>>>>> indeed require wing/stab inc adjustment and CG adjustment. >>
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> � >> >> >> It should be understood�that it is an iterative
>>>>> process to
>>>>> get "perfect" >> trim. >> >> >> � >> >> >> MattK >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: J N
>>>>> Hiller >> >> To: NSRCA Mailing List >> >> Sent: Fri, 7 Mar 2008
>>>>> 11:33
>>>>> am >> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more -
>>>>> Rolls >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The airplane may be flying
>>>>> with positive trim. Try reducing the down >> thrust or move the
>>>>> CG
>>>>> back. >> >> >> If it doesnt help put it back. >> >> >> Jim
>>>>> Hiller
>>>>>>>>>>> � >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From:
>>>>> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org >>
>>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of
>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>> Wickizer >> >> Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 8:19 AM >> >> To:
>>>>> NSRCA Mailing List >> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS
>>>>> Questions+more - Rolls >> >> >> � >> >> >> Bryan: >> >>
>>>>> � >>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that the plane doesn't know which direction it's flying,
>>>>> but
>>>>> then
>>>>>>> why will a plane fly straight and level then pull to the canopy
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> uplines?� This has been driving Brett and me crazy for over a
>>>>>>> year.�
>>>>>>> Admittedly, it a much shorter drive for me:) >> >> � >> >>
>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 6
>>>>> Mar
>>>>> 2008 23:13:48 -0500 >> >> > From: shinden1 at cox.net >> >> > To:
>>>>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> >> > Subject: Re:
>>>>> [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls >> >> > >> >> >
>>>>> Chris
>>>>> ,,
>>>>> the airplane does not know it`s flying horizontal or vertical
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> the wings are still lifting whether up or down that s why we can
>>>>> use
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> the vertical up or down to test this problem , >> >> > Bryan >>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---- krishlan fitzsimmons homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com> wrote: >>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lance, >> >> > > >> >> > > Just a thought though, if going
>>>>> straight up, up straight down, aren't >> > > the up and down
>>>>> ailerons
>>>>> both inducing equal drag, no lift? I've >> > > often wondered
>>>>> if our
>>>>> straight up test is actually a perfect test for >> > > this. It
>>>>> is for
>>>>> our up and down lines, but what about our 45's or >> > >
>>>>> horizontals
>>>>> where we do indeed have lift on the low aileron and drag >> > >
>>>>> on the
>>>>> other? This would create a different condition I'm guessing..
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> Probably small, but still a little different because as I
>>>>> mention, >>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> both create drag on the up or downline.. Still, it's the best
>>>>>> test we
>>>>>>>>> have I guess.. >> >> > > >> >> > > Chris >> >> > > >>
>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lance Van Nostrand patterndude at tx.rr.com> wrote: >> >> > > This
>>>>> thread is timely because I've been experimenting with >> > >
>>>>> differential >> >> > > recently on a new design that seems to
>>>>> need it.
>>>>> Never needed it >> > > before on a >> >> > > pattern plane
>>>>> but now I
>>>>> might. My test is to fly very high, point the >> > > nose >>
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> directly at the ground and roll pure aileron. Plane should be
>>>>> axial,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> but >> >> > > remember that axial is along the vertical CG,
>>>>>>> which
>>>>> may not be a line >> > > that >> >> > > pierces the wing LE/
>>>>> TE. You
>>>>> need to do it a few times to be sure that >> > > their >> >>
>>>>> > > is
>>>>> an axis that everything rotates around and that line is
>>>>> straight. >> >
>>>>>> If it >> >> > > wobbles, then we have an issue. Another way to
>>>>> determine this is to >> > > do >> >> > > unlimited rolls while
>>>>> flying
>>>>> straight up. If the airplane >> > > consistently arcs >> >> >
>>>>> > off
>>>>> its vertical line, you have a problem. >> >> > > >> >> > >
>>>>> Aerodynamics suggests two contributors. One is that the lowered
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> aileron >> >> > > increases the lift of the airfoil and lift
>>>>> creates
>>>>> drag so this wing >> > > may >> >> > > pull the plane off
>>>>> axis. the
>>>>> other is that the spiral slipstream of >> > > the prop >> >>
>>>>> > > is
>>>>> pushing down on the right wing and up on the left so up/right
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> aileron is >> >> > > more effective than up/left and down/left
>>>>> is more
>>>>> effective than >> > > down/right. >> >> > > >> >> > > The
>>>>> overall
>>>>> effect for most pattern planes is minimal and usually >> > >
>>>>> ignorable,
>>>>>>>>>>> but on IMAC style planes these factors can be significant
>>>>> and
>>>>> the >> > > resulting >> >> > > differential corrections may
>>>>> need to
>>>>> be adjusted with something as >> > > simple as >> >> > > a prop
>>>>> change (from 3 blade to 2 for example). >> >> > > >> >> > > the
>>>>> correction of course is to start playing with aileron >> > >
>>>>> differential. >> >> > > Given the contributors I've suggested,
>>>>> its not
>>>>> a given which way you >> > > go with >> >> > > the
>>>>> differential to
>>>>> correct the problem and the answer might not even >> > > be
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>>>
>>>>> symmetrical. >> >> > > >> >> > > Note that contributor #1
>>>>> above will
>>>>> change if you are flying upright >> > > or >> >> > >
>>>>> inverted, so it
>>>>> would seem that a correction for upright flight would >> > >
>>>>> simply
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> exacerbate inverted flight, but contributor #2 is the same for
>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>> flight >> >> > > mode but is throttle dependent. >> >> > >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --Lance >> >> > > >> >> > > ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From: "Koenig, Tom" >> >> > > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" >>
>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 4:45 PM >> >> > > Subject: Re:
>>>>> [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls >> >> > > >> >>
>>>>> > > >>
>>>>>>>>>> My head is spinning!!! The more I think about this, the more
>>>>>>>>>> questions I >> >> > > > have.........rather than answers!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe the contra rotating prop set up on a
>>>>> Voodoo
>>>>> X( Nat??) maybe >> > > > the >> >> > > > answer?? >> >> > >
>>>>> > >>
>>>>>>>>>> I still 'feel', that the best rolls I get are with a 0
>>>>> differential >> > > > set >> >> > > > up-BUT- somehow I
>>>>> 'drive' that
>>>>> wing to 0 ( or should that be some >> > > > sort >> >> > > > of
>>>>> equilibrium??) during the rolls. Certainly in my case, it seems
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>> to be >> >> > > > Pilot dependant!!! >> >> > > > I'm
>>>>>> starting to
>>>>> think that my rudder control has turned to the >> >> > > >
>>>>> proverbial
>>>>> trying to micro analyse what's happening! >> >> > > > >> >> >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> Tom
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >> >> > > >
>>>>> From:
>>>>> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org >> >> > > >
>>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>>>> shinden1 at cox.net >> >> > > > Sent: Friday, 7 March 2008 9:15 AM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List >> >> > > > Subject: Re:
>>>>> [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls >> >> > > > >>
>>>>> >> > > >
>>>>> what happens on a 4piont? >> >> > > > Bryan >> >> > > > ----
>>>>> Del
>>>>> Rykert wrote: >> >> > > >> The general consensus has been that
>>>>> the
>>>>> faster moving molecules >> > > >> over >> >> > > > the top
>>>>> surface
>>>>> don't require as big as a deflection as the aileron >> > > >
>>>>> that >>
>>>>>>>>>> deflects towards the bottom of the plane. What one tries to
>>>>> achieve >> > > > is >> >> > > > the plane tracks as purely
>>>>> straight
>>>>> on a string as possible while >> > > > one >> >> > > > rolls
>>>>> both
>>>>> directions without introducing any yaw. >> >> > > >> >> >> >
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> Del
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > >
>>>>>>>
>>>>> From: >> >> > > >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" >> >> > > >> Sent:
>>>>> Thursday, March 06, 2008 2:49 PM >> >> > > >> Subject: Re:
>>>>> [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls >> >> > > >> >>
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nat and all you other aerodynamicists, >> >> > >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I thought that the rational for "aileron
>>>>> differential"
>>>>> was that >> >> > > > upward deflection causes more drag than
>>>>> downward
>>>>> deflection so to >> >> > > > equalize drag and prevent yaw with
>>>>> aileron
>>>>> deflection, aileron >> >> > > > differential is needed. It
>>>>> seems that
>>>>> you guys are now saying that >> >> > > > ain't so. Please
>>>>> elaborate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >>
>>>>>> ---- Nat Penton wrote: >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> >
>>>>> =============
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IMO center hinged or top hinged is OK. With top hinge,
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> achieve >> >> > > > equal vertical travel of the trailing
>>>>> edge requires different >> > > > angular >> >> > > > travel,
>>>>> up vs
>>>>> down. The objective is zero aerodynamic differential. >> >> > >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ron I don't think a fairing would prevent separation
>>>>> but,
>>>>> how >> > > >> > are >> >> > > > you able to fair the gap
>>>>> using the
>>>>> top hinge ? Nat >> >> > > >> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: ronlock at comcast.net >> >> > > >> > To: NSRCA Mailing
>>>>>>>> List
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 7:20 AM >> >> > > >> >
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls >> >>
>>>>> > > >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And while your at it, I'd
>>>>> appreciate
>>>>> some discussion of the >> > > >> > impact >> >> > > > of the
>>>>> top
>>>>> hinge system as seen on Viavat, and Prestige birds - >> > > >
>>>>> (top >>
>>>>>>>>>> hinged, with fairing that eliminates the gap at deflection)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Ron Lockhart >> >> > > >> > >>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -------------- Original message -------------- >> >> > >
>>>>>>>> From: vicenterc at comcast.net >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> >
>>>>>>>> Nat,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Could you explain why the differential
>>>>> should be different for >> >> > > > non-center hinged? I
>>>>> understand
>>>>> that the mechanical configuration >> > > > of >> >> > > > non-
>>>>> center
>>>>> hinged requires differential to obtain same travel in >> > > >
>>>>> both
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> directions. However, the travel up and down should be close to
>>>>>>>>>> equal. >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > Thanks, >> >> > >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >> >> > > >> > Vicente "Vince" Bortone >> >>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -------------- Original message --------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Nat Penton" >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> >
>>>>> Tom
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's just something that is peculiar to the Southern
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hemisphere. >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > Changing wing
>>>>> incidence will not help. Unless things are really >> >> > > >
>>>>> screwed
>>>>> up , at our roll rates, centrifugal forces are too low to >> >>
>>>>> > > >
>>>>> cause a problem. You want zero differential, aero speaking
>>>>> ( same >>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> up/down if center hinged ). >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > I
>>>>> find the best check is the fast half-roll in the vertical up.
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards Nat >> >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >>
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: Koenig, Tom >> >> > > >> > To: NSRCA Mailing List >>
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 7:24 PM >> >> > > >> >
>>>>> Subject:
>>>>> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more >> >> > > >> > >> >>
>>>>> > > >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Troy! >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > Thanks
>>>>> for
>>>>> the info. I thought you would be toiling away on >> >> > > >
>>>>> the next
>>>>> developmental stage of these engines!! >> >> > > >> > >> >> >
>>>>> > >> >
>>>>> Hopefully soon, I can find the time to get flying again. I am
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> looking forward to running this little beast. I am still a
>>>>>> little >>
>>>>>>>>>> concerned in keeping it quiet though. >> >> > > >> > >> >>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Four blade props? I have some of the 18.1 x 12 two bladers >>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> but I just cant see how I'll shut the thing up with these paint
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> stirrers?? >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > Also-one more
>>>>> question to any of you out there in pattern >> >> > > > land.
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have struggled with aileron differential for
>>>>> years. I am >> >> > > > just not happy with the rolls. I have
>>>>> tried
>>>>> various design >> > > > fixes-but >> >> > > > about the only
>>>>> one
>>>>> that
>>>>> seems to work is to get the wing back to >> > > > 0-0 ( >> >>
>>>>> > > >
>>>>> which can be achieved by a few ways, design, mix or thumbs) >>
>>>>> > > >
>>>>> Differential >> >> > > > itself does not seem to work if the
>>>>> wing is
>>>>> POA ( well...it works >> > > > for >> >> > > > half the
>>>>> roll !) >>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Another black magic fix appears to be to run parallel >>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ailerons-but this only 'sorta' seems to fix it. I like the feel
>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> equal% chord ailerons however. >> >> > > >> > >> >> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am frustrated with it-I like my planes to roll as if they >>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> had a string up its ...........well you know! >> >> > > >> >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> OK-any 'secrets' I need to know??? Very good elevator work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fixes it ( hence my 0-0 comment) >> >> > > >> > >>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tom >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >>
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ---- >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> >
>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > >> >
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> >> > > >> >
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> >> > > >> >
>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >>
>>>>> > > >>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ---------- >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > >> >
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> >> > > >> >
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> >> > > >> >
>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >>
>>>>> > > >>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > >> >
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> >> > > >> >
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> >> > > >> >
>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >>
>>>>> > > >>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > >
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> >> > > >
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> >> > > >
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>>>>> > > >
>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > >
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> >> > > >
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> >> > > >
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>>>>> > > >>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >> > >
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>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> >> > >
>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >>
>>>>> > > >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. >> >> >
>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >> >
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>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing >> list NSRCA-
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>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >
>>>>> _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion
>>>>> mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >
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