[NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trim
James Oddino
joddino at socal.rr.com
Sun Mar 9 21:26:21 AKDT 2008
1) Low throttle to down elevator mix. About 2% only at low end.
2) Rudder to Elevator mix.
Jim O
On Mar 9, 2008, at 12:07 AM, Keith Black wrote:
> OK Bryan, I'll take you up on your offer.
>
> Plane:
>
> Beryll (you've had experience last year with Brett's)
>
> Problems:
>
> 1) Pull to canopy on downline
>
> 2) Tuck to belly on knife edge.
>
> (haven't noticed a pull to the canopy on upline, but really didn't
> test
> that closely)
>
> History:
>
> Initial setup incidence was .5+, CG about 175 mm behind leading
> edge. First
> flights felt very nose heavy, when rolling inverted seemed to need
> lots of
> down elevator, also the 45 deg up then roll to inverted test dropped
> nose
> more quickly than I like. Also as noted above it pull to belly on
> knife edge
> and pulled to canopy on downline.
>
> To help solve tuck to belly in knife edge I increased the incidence
> as much
> as I could (without a dremmel) probably a 1.5 to 2 turns. Also moved
> CG back
> about 3/8" or so to help nose heavy feel. Changes improved nose
> heavy feel
> and seemed to improve downline pull to canopy a bit, but it needs
> further
> improvement as it still pulls to canopy in dive. I ended up mixing
> out pull
> to belly in knife edge as the adjustments didn't help that.
>
> So what do you suggest? Seems like the move of the CG helped the
> inverted
> flight and transition to inverted on slow roll. I'm concerned that
> increasing the incidence more and moving CG forward may fix belly
> tuck in
> dive but would lead to nose heavy feel of inverted flight again. I
> know can
> increase the down elevator (or remove expo) to offset the nose heavy
> feel,
> but I don't like the transition from upright flight to knife edge to
> require
> so much top rudder that it throws off the track when at the 1/8
> point of the
> roll.
>
> What say you Sensei?
>
> Thanks,
> Keith
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <shinden1 at cox.net>
> To: "xvcNSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2008 10:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trim
>
>
>> thanks Lance
>> we all know I`m a terrible writer and thats part of my reasoning here
>> I have great respect for Matt and his abilities he is a great
>> modeler and
>> designer.
>> I am trying to use past experience when helping with these issues
>> as a
>> guide to how far out of line these things can get because of a
>> misunderstanding that leads into a poor fix
>> or a modeler who is not up to the task and trys to take the shortcut
>> ,,,there are no shortcuts
>> I would be willing to bet 98% of pattern fliers don`t even know
>> what their
>> down thust is and have never measured it. 1deg down is a lot.
>> and most could not find a baseline to start with as a watermark for
>> later
>> measurements
>> I was trying to point out that it should be a method of fine tuning
>> rather
>> than using it to steer a wayward airplane into submission.
>> The wing is the most important ,powerful and effective way to adjust
>> flight path ,,, airfoil ,stab placement , engine thrust ,,are way
>> down the
>> list in importance as seen with a foamy,,
>>
>> First things first ,,get the wing inc right THEN,, the ac/g ..you
>> would be
>> surprised at how for off you can fly c/g and get away with it ,,,
>> What Matt and I call pulling to the Canopy and what Joe Blow calles
>> it i`m
>> sure ,, are two different things.{BTW I would bet most of the
>> fliers out
>> there with differential fix problems ,,are there becuase of an up
>> line
>> pull,
>> usually because your flying a tail heavy airplane } if ou use tail
>> weight
>> to create a pos angle of attack lots of little problems arise you
>> have to
>> use inc to creat the lift and C/g to adjust the feel
>> earlier I was trying to make the bigger picture nothing against
>> what Matt
>> was offering ,,,,
>>
>> I disagree there is more than one way to trim there is only one way
>> our accepted outcome is the difference
>> I would like to say I`m probably more hard headed than the Next
>> guy , so
>> I stick to my guns till proven wrong but accept it when I can be
>> proven
>> wrong,, ,, after designing over 15 pattern airplanes and keeping
>> notes
>> ,,, my outcome notes all say the same thing in the end ,it never
>> changes
>> ,,even when I get a bright idea to change or tweak the setup it
>> leads me
>> back to where I started.
>> After watching Arch fly his Black magic in the bumpy 25mph winds in
>> Crowly
>> La. A smoking performance ,,,I might add
>> the BM appeared to be on rails then,,watching my own airplane dance
>> around
>> I realized something I knew But had ignored ,,,it made me go back
>> to the
>> notes where I found the answer ,,, it never changed!!
>> the BM was a great design Properly trimmed BUT,
>> I,, had been trying to adjust upline canopy pull with engine thrust
>> and
>> tail weight ,,,,I don`t have the Luxury of calling the designer and
>> asking
>> where to put the C/G and wing Inc ,,,I have to find it <G>
>> when I realized it needed more wing inc less tail weight and less
>> down
>> thrust it reaffirmed my notes and when the next time I flew in those
>> conditions it proved me right you have to balance all these things
>> The airplane flys around the wing ,,,,let the airplane talk to
>> you ,,be
>> honest in you evaluations accept nothing but absolute perfection it
>> is
>> attainable
>>
>> would anyone like to try an onlist diagnosis of their airplane?
>> you tell me the Set up ,,they must be very Accurate give me the
>> Symptoms
>> ,,and I`ll provide the cure
>> you tell us what is happening with the input ,,,BEWARE it can be
>> tedious
>> and it might include using a saw!!<G>
>> any takers ??
>> Bryan
>> sorry to be so longwinded
>> ---- Lance Van Nostrand <patterndude at tx.rr.com> wrote:
>>> Bryan,
>> I have been anticipating your response but now it seems it won't be
>> coming
>> soon. Maybe we can take this offline. There's no way anyone could
>> interpret my response as being argumentative and I know your are
>> tough
>> enough to take a few pin pricks without flinching. Certainly I
>> have my
>> own
>> experiences and opinions but those are completely set aside. I
>> believe
>> there are always at least 10 correct answers to any modeling
>> question but
>> each answer is right within its own context.
>>
>> In other words, I start from 0-0 and have my trim process advance
>> from
>> there
>> and usually get very good results. I think, if I remember
>> correctly your
>> old KF article and our live discussions, you start from 1/2 degree
>> positive
>> inc in wing and stab and advance from there. Since I know your
>> path is
>> different from mine I am trying to learn from you. this is why I
>> question
>> and ask for deeper explanation. Maybe it's just not there. The
>> answer
>> might be "I never tested in a wind tunnel, can't explain why it
>> works, but
>> it does so just try it and enjoy." But I hate to see you bow out
>> when
>> someone asks for more details. that makes Krishlan's comment seem
>> relevant
>> when, knowing how much you help others and contribute to this
>> sport, it
>> shouldn't be.
>>
>> --Lance
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <shinden1 at cox.net>
>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2008 5:32 PM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trim
>>
>>
>>> Ok Matt
>>> I accept, your probably right ..
>>>
>>> I will now bow out of the discussion it`s not going anywhere and I`m
>>> waiting my time trying to inform, it seems all the people I`ve
>>> helped
>>> accomplish what I`m preaching have quit the sport or they are
>>> scared to
>>> write !!
>>> I`ll leave you with this ,
>>> demand of perfection is different by each persons ability and goals,
>>> sometimes we deceive ourselves in thinking we kow it all or
>>> we get caught up in out wording every one and talking nonsense ,,
>>> then no
>>> one gets anything out of the conversation
>>> and then, you die of a thousand pin pricks<G>
>>> I can remember sharing pos inc setup with Nat on numerous
>>> occasions and
>>> Nat out worded me and proved me wrong on paper and you know he
>>> can ,, in
>>> a
>>> Popeye Fried chicken House of all places,
>>> However I find out years Later he now uses My setup I`m proud <G>
>>> ok ,I`ll stop beating a dead horse I know better than to start this
>>>
>>> carry on
>>> Bryan
>>>
>>> ---- rcmaster199 at aol.com wrote:
>>>> Bryan,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I respectfully disagree on the upline, full power issue. The
>>>> downline is
>>>> a totally different trim situation because the vectors involved are
>>>> different
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> MattK
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>
>>>> From: Nat Penton
>>>>
>>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>>>>
>>>> Sent: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 7:16 pm
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm thinking, I'm thinking ----- Original Message ----- From:
>>>> shinden1 at cox.net> To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
>>>> nsrca-discussion at lists.f3a.us> Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 1:53
>>>> PM
>>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trim > Matt, I refer
>>>> back to
>>>> my earlier post > thrust is not the issue. > wing inc. will
>>>> always
>>>> trump thrust,, in power and influence over vertical > lines. >
>>>> thrust
>>>> is a" very fine tune" issue it should not be used to adjust >
>>>> tracking
>>>> issues > > jump in Nat ,, why do you not need down thrust on your
>>>> design?? > Bryan > ---- rcmaster199 at aol.com wrote: >> If the
>>>> model
>>>> pulls to canopy on a�FULL POWER�vertical upline and you >>
>>>> reduce
>>>> downthrust, the problem will worsen. You need to add downthrust
>>>> >>
>>>> (about 1 degree initially, and more if needed). I would not mess
>>>> with
>>>> CG,
>>>>>> at least not yet. >> >> >> � >> >> >> Horizontal flight
>>>>>> places
>>>> quite a load on the wing....the wing must lift >> the load
>>>> accordingly.
>>>> Vertical flight removes the load therefore whatever >> trim was
>>>> found
>>>> in horizontal flight will affect the vertical flight. The >>
>>>> simplest
>>>> fix is downthrust addition for the condition Mike references,
>>>> >> but
>>>> assumes that the model is close to begin with. >> >> >> �
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> Downline flight (NO POWER) is a totally different trim scenario
>>>> and may
>>>>>> indeed require wing/stab inc adjustment and CG adjustment. >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>
>>>> � >> >> >> It should be understood�that it is an iterative
>>>> process to
>>>> get "perfect" >> trim. >> >> >> � >> >> >> MattK >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: J N
>>>> Hiller >> >> To: NSRCA Mailing List >> >> Sent: Fri, 7 Mar 2008
>>>> 11:33
>>>> am >> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more -
>>>> Rolls >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The airplane may be flying
>>>> with positive trim. Try reducing the down >> thrust or move the
>>>> CG
>>>> back. >> >> >> If it doesnt help put it back. >> >> >> Jim
>>>> Hiller
>>>>>>>>>> � >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From:
>>>> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org >>
>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of
>>>> Michael
>>>>>> Wickizer >> >> Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 8:19 AM >> >> To:
>>>> NSRCA Mailing List >> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS
>>>> Questions+more - Rolls >> >> >> � >> >> >> Bryan: >> >>
>>>> � >>
>>>>>>
>>>> I agree that the plane doesn't know which direction it's flying,
>>>> but
>>>> then
>>>>>> why will a plane fly straight and level then pull to the canopy
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> uplines?� This has been driving Brett and me crazy for over a
>>>>>> year.�
>>>>>> Admittedly, it a much shorter drive for me:) >> >> � >> >>
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 6
>>>> Mar
>>>> 2008 23:13:48 -0500 >> >> > From: shinden1 at cox.net >> >> > To:
>>>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> >> > Subject: Re:
>>>> [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls >> >> > >> >> >
>>>> Chris
>>>> ,,
>>>> the airplane does not know it`s flying horizontal or vertical
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> the wings are still lifting whether up or down that s why we can
>>>> use
>>>>>>
>>>>> the vertical up or down to test this problem , >> >> > Bryan >>
>>>>>>
>>>>> ---- krishlan fitzsimmons homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com> wrote: >>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lance, >> >> > > >> >> > > Just a thought though, if going
>>>> straight up, up straight down, aren't >> > > the up and down
>>>> ailerons
>>>> both inducing equal drag, no lift? I've >> > > often wondered
>>>> if our
>>>> straight up test is actually a perfect test for >> > > this. It
>>>> is for
>>>> our up and down lines, but what about our 45's or >> > >
>>>> horizontals
>>>> where we do indeed have lift on the low aileron and drag >> > >
>>>> on the
>>>> other? This would create a different condition I'm guessing..
>>>> >> > >
>>>> Probably small, but still a little different because as I
>>>> mention, >>
>>>>>
>>>>> both create drag on the up or downline.. Still, it's the best
>>>>> test we
>>>>>>>> have I guess.. >> >> > > >> >> > > Chris >> >> > > >>
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>
>>>>> Lance Van Nostrand patterndude at tx.rr.com> wrote: >> >> > > This
>>>> thread is timely because I've been experimenting with >> > >
>>>> differential >> >> > > recently on a new design that seems to
>>>> need it.
>>>> Never needed it >> > > before on a >> >> > > pattern plane
>>>> but now I
>>>> might. My test is to fly very high, point the >> > > nose >>
>>>> >> > >
>>>> directly at the ground and roll pure aileron. Plane should be
>>>> axial,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> but >> >> > > remember that axial is along the vertical CG,
>>>>>> which
>>>> may not be a line >> > > that >> >> > > pierces the wing LE/
>>>> TE. You
>>>> need to do it a few times to be sure that >> > > their >> >>
>>>> > > is
>>>> an axis that everything rotates around and that line is
>>>> straight. >> >
>>>>> If it >> >> > > wobbles, then we have an issue. Another way to
>>>> determine this is to >> > > do >> >> > > unlimited rolls while
>>>> flying
>>>> straight up. If the airplane >> > > consistently arcs >> >> >
>>>> > off
>>>> its vertical line, you have a problem. >> >> > > >> >> > >
>>>> Aerodynamics suggests two contributors. One is that the lowered
>>>> >> > >
>>>> aileron >> >> > > increases the lift of the airfoil and lift
>>>> creates
>>>> drag so this wing >> > > may >> >> > > pull the plane off
>>>> axis. the
>>>> other is that the spiral slipstream of >> > > the prop >> >>
>>>> > > is
>>>> pushing down on the right wing and up on the left so up/right
>>>> >> > >
>>>> aileron is >> >> > > more effective than up/left and down/left
>>>> is more
>>>> effective than >> > > down/right. >> >> > > >> >> > > The
>>>> overall
>>>> effect for most pattern planes is minimal and usually >> > >
>>>> ignorable,
>>>>>>>>>> but on IMAC style planes these factors can be significant
>>>> and
>>>> the >> > > resulting >> >> > > differential corrections may
>>>> need to
>>>> be adjusted with something as >> > > simple as >> >> > > a prop
>>>> change (from 3 blade to 2 for example). >> >> > > >> >> > > the
>>>> correction of course is to start playing with aileron >> > >
>>>> differential. >> >> > > Given the contributors I've suggested,
>>>> its not
>>>> a given which way you >> > > go with >> >> > > the
>>>> differential to
>>>> correct the problem and the answer might not even >> > > be
>>>> >> >> >
>>>>>
>>>> symmetrical. >> >> > > >> >> > > Note that contributor #1
>>>> above will
>>>> change if you are flying upright >> > > or >> >> > >
>>>> inverted, so it
>>>> would seem that a correction for upright flight would >> > >
>>>> simply
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> exacerbate inverted flight, but contributor #2 is the same for
>>>> any
>>>>>>>> flight >> >> > > mode but is throttle dependent. >> >> > >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --Lance >> >> > > >> >> > > ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: "Koenig, Tom" >> >> > > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" >>
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 4:45 PM >> >> > > Subject: Re:
>>>> [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls >> >> > > >> >>
>>>> > > >>
>>>>>>>>> My head is spinning!!! The more I think about this, the more
>>>>>>>>> questions I >> >> > > > have.........rather than answers!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe the contra rotating prop set up on a
>>>> Voodoo
>>>> X( Nat??) maybe >> > > > the >> >> > > > answer?? >> >> > >
>>>> > >>
>>>>>>>>> I still 'feel', that the best rolls I get are with a 0
>>>> differential >> > > > set >> >> > > > up-BUT- somehow I
>>>> 'drive' that
>>>> wing to 0 ( or should that be some >> > > > sort >> >> > > > of
>>>> equilibrium??) during the rolls. Certainly in my case, it seems
>>>> >> > >
>>>>> to be >> >> > > > Pilot dependant!!! >> >> > > > I'm
>>>>> starting to
>>>> think that my rudder control has turned to the >> >> > > >
>>>> proverbial
>>>> trying to micro analyse what's happening! >> >> > > > >> >> >
>>>> > >
>>>> Tom
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >> >> > > >
>>>> From:
>>>> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org >> >> > > >
>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
>>>> >> >> >
>>>>>> shinden1 at cox.net >> >> > > > Sent: Friday, 7 March 2008 9:15 AM
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List >> >> > > > Subject: Re:
>>>> [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls >> >> > > > >>
>>>> >> > > >
>>>> what happens on a 4piont? >> >> > > > Bryan >> >> > > > ----
>>>> Del
>>>> Rykert wrote: >> >> > > >> The general consensus has been that
>>>> the
>>>> faster moving molecules >> > > >> over >> >> > > > the top
>>>> surface
>>>> don't require as big as a deflection as the aileron >> > > >
>>>> that >>
>>>>>>>>> deflects towards the bottom of the plane. What one tries to
>>>> achieve >> > > > is >> >> > > > the plane tracks as purely
>>>> straight
>>>> on a string as possible while >> > > > one >> >> > > > rolls
>>>> both
>>>> directions without introducing any yaw. >> >> > > >> >> >> >
>>>> > >>
>>>> Del
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > >
>>>>>>
>>>> From: >> >> > > >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" >> >> > > >> Sent:
>>>> Thursday, March 06, 2008 2:49 PM >> >> > > >> Subject: Re:
>>>> [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls >> >> > > >> >>
>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nat and all you other aerodynamicists, >> >> > >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I thought that the rational for "aileron
>>>> differential"
>>>> was that >> >> > > > upward deflection causes more drag than
>>>> downward
>>>> deflection so to >> >> > > > equalize drag and prevent yaw with
>>>> aileron
>>>> deflection, aileron >> >> > > > differential is needed. It
>>>> seems that
>>>> you guys are now saying that >> >> > > > ain't so. Please
>>>> elaborate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >>
>>>>> ---- Nat Penton wrote: >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> >
>>>> =============
>>>>>>>>>>>>> IMO center hinged or top hinged is OK. With top hinge,
>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> achieve >> >> > > > equal vertical travel of the trailing
>>>> edge requires different >> > > > angular >> >> > > > travel,
>>>> up vs
>>>> down. The objective is zero aerodynamic differential. >> >> > >
>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ron I don't think a fairing would prevent separation
>>>> but,
>>>> how >> > > >> > are >> >> > > > you able to fair the gap
>>>> using the
>>>> top hinge ? Nat >> >> > > >> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>> >> >> >
>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: ronlock at comcast.net >> >> > > >> > To: NSRCA Mailing
>>>>>>> List
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 7:20 AM >> >> > > >> >
>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls >> >>
>>>> > > >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And while your at it, I'd
>>>> appreciate
>>>> some discussion of the >> > > >> > impact >> >> > > > of the
>>>> top
>>>> hinge system as seen on Viavat, and Prestige birds - >> > > >
>>>> (top >>
>>>>>>>>> hinged, with fairing that eliminates the gap at deflection)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Ron Lockhart >> >> > > >> > >>
>>>>>>>>>>> -------------- Original message -------------- >> >> > >
>>>>>>> From: vicenterc at comcast.net >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> >
>>>>>>> Nat,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Could you explain why the differential
>>>> should be different for >> >> > > > non-center hinged? I
>>>> understand
>>>> that the mechanical configuration >> > > > of >> >> > > > non-
>>>> center
>>>> hinged requires differential to obtain same travel in >> > > >
>>>> both
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> directions. However, the travel up and down should be close to
>>>>>>>>> equal. >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > Thanks, >> >> > >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >> >> > > >> > Vicente "Vince" Bortone >> >>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -------------- Original message --------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Nat Penton" >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> >
>>>> Tom
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's just something that is peculiar to the Southern
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hemisphere. >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > Changing wing
>>>> incidence will not help. Unless things are really >> >> > > >
>>>> screwed
>>>> up , at our roll rates, centrifugal forces are too low to >> >>
>>>> > > >
>>>> cause a problem. You want zero differential, aero speaking
>>>> ( same >>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> up/down if center hinged ). >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > I
>>>> find the best check is the fast half-roll in the vertical up.
>>>> >> >> >
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards Nat >> >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >>
>>>>> >> >
>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: Koenig, Tom >> >> > > >> > To: NSRCA Mailing List >>
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 7:24 PM >> >> > > >> >
>>>> Subject:
>>>> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more >> >> > > >> > >> >>
>>>> > > >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Troy! >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > Thanks
>>>> for
>>>> the info. I thought you would be toiling away on >> >> > > >
>>>> the next
>>>> developmental stage of these engines!! >> >> > > >> > >> >> >
>>>> > >> >
>>>> Hopefully soon, I can find the time to get flying again. I am
>>>> >> >> >
>>>>>
>>>>> looking forward to running this little beast. I am still a
>>>>> little >>
>>>>>>>>> concerned in keeping it quiet though. >> >> > > >> > >> >>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Four blade props? I have some of the 18.1 x 12 two bladers >>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> but I just cant see how I'll shut the thing up with these paint
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> stirrers?? >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > Also-one more
>>>> question to any of you out there in pattern >> >> > > > land.
>>>> >> >>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have struggled with aileron differential for
>>>> years. I am >> >> > > > just not happy with the rolls. I have
>>>> tried
>>>> various design >> > > > fixes-but >> >> > > > about the only
>>>> one
>>>> that
>>>> seems to work is to get the wing back to >> > > > 0-0 ( >> >>
>>>> > > >
>>>> which can be achieved by a few ways, design, mix or thumbs) >>
>>>> > > >
>>>> Differential >> >> > > > itself does not seem to work if the
>>>> wing is
>>>> POA ( well...it works >> > > > for >> >> > > > half the
>>>> roll !) >>
>>>>>>>>>>> Another black magic fix appears to be to run parallel >>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ailerons-but this only 'sorta' seems to fix it. I like the feel
>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> equal% chord ailerons however. >> >> > > >> > >> >> >
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am frustrated with it-I like my planes to roll as if they >>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> had a string up its ...........well you know! >> >> > > >> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> OK-any 'secrets' I need to know??? Very good elevator work
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fixes it ( hence my 0-0 comment) >> >> > > >> > >>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tom >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ---- >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> >
>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > >> >
>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> >> > > >> >
>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> >> > > >> >
>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >>
>>>> > > >>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ---------- >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> >
>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > >> >
>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> >> > > >> >
>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> >> > > >> >
>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >>
>>>> > > >>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > >> >
>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> >> > > >> >
>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> >> > > >> >
>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >>
>>>> > > >>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > >
>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> >> > > >
>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> >> > > >
>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >>
>>>> > > >
>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > >
>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> >> > > >
>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> >> > > >
>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >>
>>>> > > >>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >> > >
>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> >> > >
>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> >> > >
>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >>
>>>> > > >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> >
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. >> >> >
>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >> >
>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> >> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing >> list NSRCA-
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>>>>>>
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