[NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trim
Nat Penton
natpenton at centurytel.net
Sun Mar 9 16:17:54 AKDT 2008
Keith
Where is the thrustline ?? Nat
----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Black" <tkeithblack at gmail.com>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.f3a.us>
Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 3:07 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trim
> OK Bryan, I'll take you up on your offer.
>
> Plane:
>
> Beryll (you've had experience last year with Brett's)
>
> Problems:
>
> 1) Pull to canopy on downline
>
> 2) Tuck to belly on knife edge.
>
> (haven't noticed a pull to the canopy on upline, but really didn't test
> that closely)
>
> History:
>
> Initial setup incidence was .5+, CG about 175 mm behind leading edge.
> First
> flights felt very nose heavy, when rolling inverted seemed to need lots of
> down elevator, also the 45 deg up then roll to inverted test dropped nose
> more quickly than I like. Also as noted above it pull to belly on knife
> edge
> and pulled to canopy on downline.
>
> To help solve tuck to belly in knife edge I increased the incidence as
> much
> as I could (without a dremmel) probably a 1.5 to 2 turns. Also moved CG
> back
> about 3/8" or so to help nose heavy feel. Changes improved nose heavy feel
> and seemed to improve downline pull to canopy a bit, but it needs further
> improvement as it still pulls to canopy in dive. I ended up mixing out
> pull
> to belly in knife edge as the adjustments didn't help that.
>
> So what do you suggest? Seems like the move of the CG helped the inverted
> flight and transition to inverted on slow roll. I'm concerned that
> increasing the incidence more and moving CG forward may fix belly tuck in
> dive but would lead to nose heavy feel of inverted flight again. I know
> can
> increase the down elevator (or remove expo) to offset the nose heavy feel,
> but I don't like the transition from upright flight to knife edge to
> require
> so much top rudder that it throws off the track when at the 1/8 point of
> the
> roll.
>
> What say you Sensei?
>
> Thanks,
> Keith
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <shinden1 at cox.net>
> To: "xvcNSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2008 10:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trim
>
>
>> thanks Lance
>> we all know I`m a terrible writer and thats part of my reasoning here
>> I have great respect for Matt and his abilities he is a great modeler and
>> designer.
>> I am trying to use past experience when helping with these issues as a
>> guide to how far out of line these things can get because of a
>> misunderstanding that leads into a poor fix
>> or a modeler who is not up to the task and trys to take the shortcut
>> ,,,there are no shortcuts
>> I would be willing to bet 98% of pattern fliers don`t even know what
>> their
>> down thust is and have never measured it. 1deg down is a lot.
>> and most could not find a baseline to start with as a watermark for later
>> measurements
>> I was trying to point out that it should be a method of fine tuning
>> rather
>> than using it to steer a wayward airplane into submission.
>> The wing is the most important ,powerful and effective way to adjust
>> flight path ,,, airfoil ,stab placement , engine thrust ,,are way down
>> the
>> list in importance as seen with a foamy,,
>>
>> First things first ,,get the wing inc right THEN,, the ac/g ..you would
>> be
>> surprised at how for off you can fly c/g and get away with it ,,,
>> What Matt and I call pulling to the Canopy and what Joe Blow calles it
>> i`m
>> sure ,, are two different things.{BTW I would bet most of the fliers out
>> there with differential fix problems ,,are there becuase of an up line
>> pull,
>> usually because your flying a tail heavy airplane } if ou use tail weight
>> to create a pos angle of attack lots of little problems arise you have to
>> use inc to creat the lift and C/g to adjust the feel
>> earlier I was trying to make the bigger picture nothing against what Matt
>> was offering ,,,,
>>
>> I disagree there is more than one way to trim there is only one way
>> our accepted outcome is the difference
>> I would like to say I`m probably more hard headed than the Next guy , so
>> I stick to my guns till proven wrong but accept it when I can be proven
>> wrong,, ,, after designing over 15 pattern airplanes and keeping notes
>> ,,, my outcome notes all say the same thing in the end ,it never changes
>> ,,even when I get a bright idea to change or tweak the setup it leads me
>> back to where I started.
>> After watching Arch fly his Black magic in the bumpy 25mph winds in
>> Crowly
>> La. A smoking performance ,,,I might add
>> the BM appeared to be on rails then,,watching my own airplane dance
>> around
>> I realized something I knew But had ignored ,,,it made me go back to the
>> notes where I found the answer ,,, it never changed!!
>> the BM was a great design Properly trimmed BUT,
>> I,, had been trying to adjust upline canopy pull with engine thrust and
>> tail weight ,,,,I don`t have the Luxury of calling the designer and
>> asking
>> where to put the C/G and wing Inc ,,,I have to find it <G>
>> when I realized it needed more wing inc less tail weight and less down
>> thrust it reaffirmed my notes and when the next time I flew in those
>> conditions it proved me right you have to balance all these things
>> The airplane flys around the wing ,,,,let the airplane talk to you ,,be
>> honest in you evaluations accept nothing but absolute perfection it is
>> attainable
>>
>> would anyone like to try an onlist diagnosis of their airplane?
>> you tell me the Set up ,,they must be very Accurate give me the Symptoms
>> ,,and I`ll provide the cure
>> you tell us what is happening with the input ,,,BEWARE it can be tedious
>> and it might include using a saw!!<G>
>> any takers ??
>> Bryan
>> sorry to be so longwinded
>> ---- Lance Van Nostrand <patterndude at tx.rr.com> wrote:
>>> Bryan,
>> I have been anticipating your response but now it seems it won't be
>> coming
>> soon. Maybe we can take this offline. There's no way anyone could
>> interpret my response as being argumentative and I know your are tough
>> enough to take a few pin pricks without flinching. Certainly I have my
>> own
>> experiences and opinions but those are completely set aside. I believe
>> there are always at least 10 correct answers to any modeling question but
>> each answer is right within its own context.
>>
>> In other words, I start from 0-0 and have my trim process advance from
>> there
>> and usually get very good results. I think, if I remember correctly your
>> old KF article and our live discussions, you start from 1/2 degree
>> positive
>> inc in wing and stab and advance from there. Since I know your path is
>> different from mine I am trying to learn from you. this is why I
>> question
>> and ask for deeper explanation. Maybe it's just not there. The answer
>> might be "I never tested in a wind tunnel, can't explain why it works,
>> but
>> it does so just try it and enjoy." But I hate to see you bow out when
>> someone asks for more details. that makes Krishlan's comment seem
>> relevant
>> when, knowing how much you help others and contribute to this sport, it
>> shouldn't be.
>>
>> --Lance
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <shinden1 at cox.net>
>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2008 5:32 PM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trim
>>
>>
>>> Ok Matt
>>> I accept, your probably right ..
>>>
>>> I will now bow out of the discussion it`s not going anywhere and I`m
>>> waiting my time trying to inform, it seems all the people I`ve helped
>>> accomplish what I`m preaching have quit the sport or they are scared to
>>> write !!
>>> I`ll leave you with this ,
>>> demand of perfection is different by each persons ability and goals,
>>> sometimes we deceive ourselves in thinking we kow it all or
>>> we get caught up in out wording every one and talking nonsense ,, then
>>> no
>>> one gets anything out of the conversation
>>> and then, you die of a thousand pin pricks<G>
>>> I can remember sharing pos inc setup with Nat on numerous occasions and
>>> Nat out worded me and proved me wrong on paper and you know he can ,, in
>>> a
>>> Popeye Fried chicken House of all places,
>>> However I find out years Later he now uses My setup I`m proud <G>
>>> ok ,I`ll stop beating a dead horse I know better than to start this
>>>
>>> carry on
>>> Bryan
>>>
>>> ---- rcmaster199 at aol.com wrote:
>>>> Bryan,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I respectfully disagree on the upline, full power issue. The downline
>>>> is
>>>> a totally different trim situation because the vectors involved are
>>>> different
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> MattK
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>
>>>> From: Nat Penton
>>>>
>>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>>>>
>>>> Sent: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 7:16 pm
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm thinking, I'm thinking ----- Original Message ----- From:
>>>> shinden1 at cox.net> To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
>>>> nsrca-discussion at lists.f3a.us> Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 1:53 PM
>>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trim > Matt, I refer back
>>>> to
>>>> my earlier post > thrust is not the issue. > wing inc. will always
>>>> trump thrust,, in power and influence over vertical > lines. >
>>>> thrust
>>>> is a" very fine tune" issue it should not be used to adjust >
>>>> tracking
>>>> issues > > jump in Nat ,, why do you not need down thrust on your
>>>> design?? > Bryan > ---- rcmaster199 at aol.com wrote: >> If the model
>>>> pulls to canopy on a�FULL POWER�vertical upline and you >> reduce
>>>> downthrust, the problem will worsen. You need to add downthrust >>
>>>> (about 1 degree initially, and more if needed). I would not mess with
>>>> CG,
>>>> >> at least not yet. >> >> >> � >> >> >> Horizontal flight
>>>> places
>>>> quite a load on the wing....the wing must lift >> the load
>>>> accordingly.
>>>> Vertical flight removes the load therefore whatever >> trim was found
>>>> in horizontal flight will affect the vertical flight. The >> simplest
>>>> fix is downthrust addition for the condition Mike references, >> but
>>>> assumes that the model is close to begin with. >> >> >> � >> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> Downline flight (NO POWER) is a totally different trim scenario and may
>>>> >> indeed require wing/stab inc adjustment and CG adjustment. >> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> � >> >> >> It should be understood�that it is an iterative process
>>>> to
>>>> get "perfect" >> trim. >> >> >> � >> >> >> MattK >> >> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: J
>>>> N
>>>> Hiller >> >> To: NSRCA Mailing List >> >> Sent: Fri, 7 Mar 2008
>>>> 11:33
>>>> am >> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls
>>>> >>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The airplane may be flying
>>>> with positive trim. Try reducing the down >> thrust or move the CG
>>>> back. >> >> >> If it doesnt help put it back. >> >> >> Jim
>>>> Hiller
>>>> >> >> >> � >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From:
>>>> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org >>
>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Michael
>>>> >> Wickizer >> >> Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 8:19 AM >> >> To:
>>>> NSRCA Mailing List >> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS
>>>> Questions+more - Rolls >> >> >> � >> >> >> Bryan: >> >> � >>
>>>> >>
>>>> I agree that the plane doesn't know which direction it's flying, but
>>>> then
>>>> >> why will a plane fly straight and level then pull to the canopy in
>>>> >> uplines?� This has been driving Brett and me crazy for over a
>>>> year.�
>>>> >> Admittedly, it a much shorter drive for me:) >> >> � >> >> Mike
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Date: Thu, 6
>>>> Mar
>>>> 2008 23:13:48 -0500 >> >> > From: shinden1 at cox.net >> >> > To:
>>>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> >> > Subject: Re:
>>>> [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls >> >> > >> >> > Chris
>>>> ,,
>>>> the airplane does not know it`s flying horizontal or vertical >> >> >
>>>> the wings are still lifting whether up or down that s why we can use
>>>> >>
>>>> > the vertical up or down to test this problem , >> >> > Bryan >>
>>>> >>
>>>> > ---- krishlan fitzsimmons homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com> wrote: >>
>>>> >>
>>>> > > Lance, >> >> > > >> >> > > Just a thought though, if going
>>>> straight up, up straight down, aren't >> > > the up and down ailerons
>>>> both inducing equal drag, no lift? I've >> > > often wondered if our
>>>> straight up test is actually a perfect test for >> > > this. It is
>>>> for
>>>> our up and down lines, but what about our 45's or >> > > horizontals
>>>> where we do indeed have lift on the low aileron and drag >> > > on
>>>> the
>>>> other? This would create a different condition I'm guessing.. >> > >
>>>> Probably small, but still a little different because as I mention, >>
>>>> >
>>>> > both create drag on the up or downline.. Still, it's the best test
>>>> we
>>>> >> > > have I guess.. >> >> > > >> >> > > Chris >> >> > > >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > Lance Van Nostrand patterndude at tx.rr.com> wrote: >> >> > > This
>>>> thread is timely because I've been experimenting with >> > >
>>>> differential >> >> > > recently on a new design that seems to need
>>>> it.
>>>> Never needed it >> > > before on a >> >> > > pattern plane but now
>>>> I
>>>> might. My test is to fly very high, point the >> > > nose >> >> > >
>>>> directly at the ground and roll pure aileron. Plane should be axial,
>>>> >>
>>>> > > but >> >> > > remember that axial is along the vertical CG,
>>>> which
>>>> may not be a line >> > > that >> >> > > pierces the wing LE/TE. You
>>>> need to do it a few times to be sure that >> > > their >> >> > > is
>>>> an axis that everything rotates around and that line is straight. >>
>>>> >
>>>> > If it >> >> > > wobbles, then we have an issue. Another way to
>>>> determine this is to >> > > do >> >> > > unlimited rolls while
>>>> flying
>>>> straight up. If the airplane >> > > consistently arcs >> >> > > off
>>>> its vertical line, you have a problem. >> >> > > >> >> > >
>>>> Aerodynamics suggests two contributors. One is that the lowered >> >
>>>> >
>>>> aileron >> >> > > increases the lift of the airfoil and lift creates
>>>> drag so this wing >> > > may >> >> > > pull the plane off axis. the
>>>> other is that the spiral slipstream of >> > > the prop >> >> > > is
>>>> pushing down on the right wing and up on the left so up/right >> > >
>>>> aileron is >> >> > > more effective than up/left and down/left is
>>>> more
>>>> effective than >> > > down/right. >> >> > > >> >> > > The overall
>>>> effect for most pattern planes is minimal and usually >> > >
>>>> ignorable,
>>>> >> >> > > but on IMAC style planes these factors can be significant
>>>> and
>>>> the >> > > resulting >> >> > > differential corrections may need to
>>>> be adjusted with something as >> > > simple as >> >> > > a prop
>>>> change (from 3 blade to 2 for example). >> >> > > >> >> > > the
>>>> correction of course is to start playing with aileron >> > >
>>>> differential. >> >> > > Given the contributors I've suggested, its
>>>> not
>>>> a given which way you >> > > go with >> >> > > the differential to
>>>> correct the problem and the answer might not even >> > > be >> >> >
>>>> >
>>>> symmetrical. >> >> > > >> >> > > Note that contributor #1 above
>>>> will
>>>> change if you are flying upright >> > > or >> >> > > inverted, so
>>>> it
>>>> would seem that a correction for upright flight would >> > > simply
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > > exacerbate inverted flight, but contributor #2 is the same for
>>>> any
>>>> >> > > flight >> >> > > mode but is throttle dependent. >> >> > >
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > > --Lance >> >> > > >> >> > > ----- Original Message -----
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > > From: "Koenig, Tom" >> >> > > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 4:45 PM >> >> > > Subject: Re:
>>>> [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls >> >> > > >> >> > >
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > > > My head is spinning!!! The more I think about this, the more
>>>> >> > > > questions I >> >> > > > have.........rather than answers!
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > > > >> >> > > > Maybe the contra rotating prop set up on a
>>>> Voodoo
>>>> X( Nat??) maybe >> > > > the >> >> > > > answer?? >> >> > > > >>
>>>> >> > > > I still 'feel', that the best rolls I get are with a 0
>>>> differential >> > > > set >> >> > > > up-BUT- somehow I 'drive'
>>>> that
>>>> wing to 0 ( or should that be some >> > > > sort >> >> > > > of
>>>> equilibrium??) during the rolls. Certainly in my case, it seems >> >
>>>> >
>>>> > to be >> >> > > > Pilot dependant!!! >> >> > > > I'm starting to
>>>> think that my rudder control has turned to the >> >> > > > proverbial
>>>> trying to micro analyse what's happening! >> >> > > > >> >> > > >
>>>> Tom
>>>> >> >> > > > >> >> > > > -----Original Message----- >> >> > > >
>>>> From:
>>>> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org >> >> > > >
>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of >> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > > shinden1 at cox.net >> >> > > > Sent: Friday, 7 March 2008 9:15 AM
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > > > To: NSRCA Mailing List >> >> > > > Subject: Re:
>>>> [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls >> >> > > > >> >> > >
>>>> >
>>>> what happens on a 4piont? >> >> > > > Bryan >> >> > > > ---- Del
>>>> Rykert wrote: >> >> > > >> The general consensus has been that the
>>>> faster moving molecules >> > > >> over >> >> > > > the top surface
>>>> don't require as big as a deflection as the aileron >> > > > that >>
>>>> >> > > > deflects towards the bottom of the plane. What one tries to
>>>> achieve >> > > > is >> >> > > > the plane tracks as purely straight
>>>> on a string as possible while >> > > > one >> >> > > > rolls both
>>>> directions without introducing any yaw. >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >>
>>>> Del
>>>> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > >
>>>> >>
>>>> From: >> >> > > >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" >> >> > > >> Sent:
>>>> Thursday, March 06, 2008 2:49 PM >> >> > > >> Subject: Re:
>>>> [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls >> >> > > >> >> >> > >
>>>> >> >> >> > > >> > Nat and all you other aerodynamicists, >> >> > >
>>>> >>
>>>> > >> >> > > >> > I thought that the rational for "aileron
>>>> differential"
>>>> was that >> >> > > > upward deflection causes more drag than downward
>>>> deflection so to >> >> > > > equalize drag and prevent yaw with
>>>> aileron
>>>> deflection, aileron >> >> > > > differential is needed. It seems that
>>>> you guys are now saying that >> >> > > > ain't so. Please elaborate.
>>>> >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > George >> >> > > >> > >> >> > >
>>>> >>
>>>> > ---- Nat Penton wrote: >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> >
>>>> =============
>>>> >> >> > > >> > IMO center hinged or top hinged is OK. With top hinge,
>>>> to
>>>> >> > > >> > achieve >> >> > > > equal vertical travel of the
>>>> trailing
>>>> edge requires different >> > > > angular >> >> > > > travel, up vs
>>>> down. The objective is zero aerodynamic differential. >> >> > > >> >
>>>> >> >> > > >> > Ron I don't think a fairing would prevent separation
>>>> but,
>>>> how >> > > >> > are >> >> > > > you able to fair the gap using the
>>>> top hinge ? Nat >> >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> > From: ronlock at comcast.net >> >> > > >> > To: NSRCA Mailing List
>>>> >> >> > > >> > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 7:20 AM >> >> > > >>
>>>> >
>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls >> >> > >
>>>> >>
>>>> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > And while your at it, I'd
>>>> appreciate
>>>> some discussion of the >> > > >> > impact >> >> > > > of the top
>>>> hinge system as seen on Viavat, and Prestige birds - >> > > > (top
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > > > hinged, with fairing that eliminates the gap at deflection)
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > Thanks, Ron Lockhart >> >> > > >> > >>
>>>> >> > > >> > -------------- Original message -------------- >> >> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> > From: vicenterc at comcast.net >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> >
>>>> Nat,
>>>> >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > Could you explain why the
>>>> differential
>>>> should be different for >> >> > > > non-center hinged? I understand
>>>> that the mechanical configuration >> > > > of >> >> > > >
>>>> non-center
>>>> hinged requires differential to obtain same travel in >> > > > both
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > > > directions. However, the travel up and down should be close
>>>> to
>>>> >> > > > equal. >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > Thanks, >> >> > >
>>>> >>
>>>> > >> >> > > >> > -- >> >> > > >> > Vicente "Vince" Bortone >> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > >> > >> >> > > >> > -------------- Original message --------------
>>>> >> >> > > >> > From: "Nat Penton" >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> >
>>>> Tom
>>>> >> >> > > >> > It's just something that is peculiar to the Southern
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > > > Hemisphere. >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > Changing wing
>>>> incidence will not help. Unless things are really >> >> > > > screwed
>>>> up , at our roll rates, centrifugal forces are too low to >> >> > > >
>>>> cause a problem. You want zero differential, aero speaking ( same >>
>>>> >>
>>>> > > > up/down if center hinged ). >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > I
>>>> find the best check is the fast half-roll in the vertical up. >> >> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Regards Nat >> >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> > From: Koenig, Tom >> >> > > >> > To: NSRCA Mailing List >> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > >> > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 7:24 PM >> >> > > >> >
>>>> Subject:
>>>> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more >> >> > > >> > >> >> > >
>>>> >>
>>>> > >> >> > > >> > Hi Troy! >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > Thanks
>>>> for
>>>> the info. I thought you would be toiling away on >> >> > > > the next
>>>> developmental stage of these engines!! >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >>
>>>> >
>>>> Hopefully soon, I can find the time to get flying again. I am >> >> >
>>>> >
>>>> > looking forward to running this little beast. I am still a little
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > > > concerned in keeping it quiet though. >> >> > > >> > >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > >> > Four blade props? I have some of the 18.1 x 12 two bladers >>
>>>> >>
>>>> > > > but I just cant see how I'll shut the thing up with these paint
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > > > stirrers?? >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > Also-one more
>>>> question to any of you out there in pattern >> >> > > > land. >> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > >> > >> >> > > >> > I have struggled with aileron differential for
>>>> years. I am >> >> > > > just not happy with the rolls. I have tried
>>>> various design >> > > > fixes-but >> >> > > > about the only one
>>>> that
>>>> seems to work is to get the wing back to >> > > > 0-0 ( >> >> > > >
>>>> which can be achieved by a few ways, design, mix or thumbs) >> > > >
>>>> Differential >> >> > > > itself does not seem to work if the wing is
>>>> POA ( well...it works >> > > > for >> >> > > > half the roll !) >>
>>>> >> > > >> > Another black magic fix appears to be to run parallel >>
>>>> >>
>>>> > > > ailerons-but this only 'sorta' seems to fix it. I like the feel
>>>> of
>>>> >> >> > > > equal% chord ailerons however. >> >> > > >> > >> >> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> > I am frustrated with it-I like my planes to roll as if they >>
>>>> >>
>>>> > > > had a string up its ...........well you know! >> >> > > >> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > > >> > OK-any 'secrets' I need to know??? Very good elevator work
>>>> >> >> > > >> > fixes it ( hence my 0-0 comment) >> >> > > >> > >>
>>>> >>
>>>> > > >> > Tom >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >>
>>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >> >> > > >> > ---- >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >>
>>>> >
>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > >> >
>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> >> > > >> >
>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> >> > > >> >
>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> > > >>
>>>> >
>>>> >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >>
>>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >> >> > > >> > ---------- >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > > >> >
>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> >> > > >> >
>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> >> > > >> >
>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> > > >>
>>>> >
>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > >> >
>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> >> > > >> >
>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> >> > > >> >
>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> > > >>
>>>> >
>>>> >> >> > > > >> >> > > >
>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > >
>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> >> > > >
>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> >> > > >
>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> > > >
>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > >
>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> >> > > >
>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> >> > > >
>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> > >
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > > _______________________________________________ >> >> > >
>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> >> > >
>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> >> > >
>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> > >
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > Chris >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > ---------------------------------
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. >> >> >
>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >> >
>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> >> >
>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
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>>>> >>
>>>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
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>>>> >>
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