[NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trim
shinden1 at cox.net
shinden1 at cox.net
Sat Mar 8 14:32:39 AKST 2008
Ok Matt
I accept, your probably right ..
I will now bow out of the discussion it`s not going anywhere and I`m waiting my time trying to inform, it seems all the people I`ve helped accomplish what I`m preaching have quit the sport or they are scared to write !!
I`ll leave you with this ,
demand of perfection is different by each persons ability and goals,
sometimes we deceive ourselves in thinking we kow it all or
we get caught up in out wording every one and talking nonsense ,, then no one gets anything out of the conversation
and then, you die of a thousand pin pricks<G>
I can remember sharing pos inc setup with Nat on numerous occasions and Nat out worded me and proved me wrong on paper and you know he can ,, in a Popeye Fried chicken House of all places,
However I find out years Later he now uses My setup I`m proud <G>
ok ,I`ll stop beating a dead horse I know better than to start this
carry on
Bryan
---- rcmaster199 at aol.com wrote:
> Bryan,
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> I respectfully disagree on the upline, full power issue. The downline is a totally different trim situation because the vectors involved are different
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> MattK
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> -----Original Message-----
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> From: Nat Penton
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> To: NSRCA Mailing List
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> Sent: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 7:16 pm
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> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trim
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> I'm thinking, I'm thinking ----- Original Message ----- From: shinden1 at cox.net> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" nsrca-discussion at lists.f3a.us> Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 1:53 PM Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trim > Matt, I refer back to my earlier post > thrust is not the issue. > wing inc. will always trump thrust,, in power and influence over vertical > lines. > thrust is a" very fine tune" issue it should not be used to adjust > tracking issues > > jump in Nat ,, why do you not need down thrust on your design?? > Bryan > ---- rcmaster199 at aol.com wrote: >> If the model pulls to canopy on a�FULL POWER�vertical upline and you >> reduce downthrust, the problem will worsen. You need to add downthrust >> (about 1 degree initially, and more if needed). I would not mess with CG, >> at least not yet. >> >> >> � >> >> >> Horizontal flight places quite a load on the wing....the wing must lift >> the load accordingly. Vertical flight removes the load therefore whatever >> trim was found in horizontal flight will affect the vertical flight. The >> simplest fix is downthrust addition for the condition Mike references, >> but assumes that the model is close to begin with. >> >> >> � >> >> >> Downline flight (NO POWER) is a totally different trim scenario and may >> indeed require wing/stab inc adjustment and CG adjustment. >> >> >> � >> >> >> It should be understood�that it is an iterative process to get "perfect" >> trim. >> >> >> � >> >> >> MattK >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: J N Hiller >> >> To: NSRCA Mailing List >> >> Sent: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 11:33 am >> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The airplane may be flying with positive trim. Try reducing the down >> thrust or move the CG back. >> >> >> If it doesnt help put it back. >> >> >> Jim Hiller >> >> >> � >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org >> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Michael >> Wickizer >> >> Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 8:19 AM >> >> To: NSRCA Mailing List >> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls >> >> >> � >> >> >> Bryan: >> >> � >> >> I agree that the plane doesn't know which direction it's flying, but then >> why will a plane fly straight and level then pull to the canopy in >> uplines?� This has been driving Brett and me crazy for over a year.� >> Admittedly, it a much shorter drive for me:) >> >> � >> >> Mike >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 23:13:48 -0500 >> >> > From: shinden1 at cox.net >> >> > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> >> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls >> >> > >> >> > Chris ,, the airplane does not know it`s flying horizontal or vertical >> >> > the wings are still lifting whether up or down that s why we can use >> > the vertical up or down to test this problem , >> >> > Bryan >> >> > ---- krishlan fitzsimmons homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> > > Lance, >> >> > > >> >> > > Just a thought though, if going straight up, up straight down, aren't >> > > the up and down ailerons both inducing equal drag, no lift? I've >> > > often wondered if our straight up test is actually a perfect test for >> > > this. It is for our up and down lines, but what about our 45's or >> > > horizontals where we do indeed have lift on the low aileron and drag >> > > on the other? This would create a different condition I'm guessing.. >> > > Probably small, but still a little different because as I mention, >> > > both create drag on the up or downline.. Still, it's the best test we >> > > have I guess.. >> >> > > >> >> > > Chris >> >> > > >> >> > > Lance Van Nostrand patterndude at tx.rr.com> wrote: >> >> > > This thread is timely because I've been experimenting with >> > > differential >> >> > > recently on a new design that seems to need it. Never needed it >> > > before on a >> >> > > pattern plane but now I might. My test is to fly very high, point the >> > > nose >> >> > > directly at the ground and roll pure aileron. Plane should be axial, >> > > but >> >> > > remember that axial is along the vertical CG, which may not be a line >> > > that >> >> > > pierces the wing LE/TE. You need to do it a few times to be sure that >> > > their >> >> > > is an axis that everything rotates around and that line is straight. >> > > If it >> >> > > wobbles, then we have an issue. Another way to determine this is to >> > > do >> >> > > unlimited rolls while flying straight up. If the airplane >> > > consistently arcs >> >> > > off its vertical line, you have a problem. >> >> > > >> >> > > Aerodynamics suggests two contributors. One is that the lowered >> > > aileron >> >> > > increases the lift of the airfoil and lift creates drag so this wing >> > > may >> >> > > pull the plane off axis. the other is that the spiral slipstream of >> > > the prop >> >> > > is pushing down on the right wing and up on the left so up/right >> > > aileron is >> >> > > more effective than up/left and down/left is more effective than >> > > down/right. >> >> > > >> >> > > The overall effect for most pattern planes is minimal and usually >> > > ignorable, >> >> > > but on IMAC style planes these factors can be significant and the >> > > resulting >> >> > > differential corrections may need to be adjusted with something as >> > > simple as >> >> > > a prop change (from 3 blade to 2 for example). >> >> > > >> >> > > the correction of course is to start playing with aileron >> > > differential. >> >> > > Given the contributors I've suggested, its not a given which way you >> > > go with >> >> > > the differential to correct the problem and the answer might not even >> > > be >> >> > > symmetrical. >> >> > > >> >> > > Note that contributor #1 above will change if you are flying upright >> > > or >> >> > > inverted, so it would seem that a correction for upright flight would >> > > simply >> >> > > exacerbate inverted flight, but contributor #2 is the same for any >> > > flight >> >> > > mode but is throttle dependent. >> >> > > >> >> > > --Lance >> >> > > >> >> > > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > > From: "Koenig, Tom" >> >> > > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" >> >> > > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 4:45 PM >> >> > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > > My head is spinning!!! The more I think about this, the more >> > > > questions I >> >> > > > have.........rather than answers! >> >> > > > >> >> > > > Maybe the contra rotating prop set up on a Voodoo X( Nat??) maybe >> > > > the >> >> > > > answer?? >> >> > > > >> >> > > > I still 'feel', that the best rolls I get are with a 0 differential >> > > > set >> >> > > > up-BUT- somehow I 'drive' that wing to 0 ( or should that be some >> > > > sort >> >> > > > of equilibrium??) during the rolls. Certainly in my case, it seems >> > > > to be >> >> > > > Pilot dependant!!! >> >> > > > I'm starting to think that my rudder control has turned to the >> >> > > > proverbial trying to micro analyse what's happening! >> >> > > > >> >> > > > Tom >> >> > > > >> >> > > > -----Original Message----- >> >> > > > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org >> >> > > > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of >> >> > > > shinden1 at cox.net >> >> > > > Sent: Friday, 7 March 2008 9:15 AM >> >> > > > To: NSRCA Mailing List >> >> > > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls >> >> > > > >> >> > > > what happens on a 4piont? >> >> > > > Bryan >> >> > > > ---- Del Rykert wrote: >> >> > > >> The general consensus has been that the faster moving molecules >> > > >> over >> >> > > > the top surface don't require as big as a deflection as the aileron >> > > > that >> >> > > > deflects towards the bottom of the plane. What one tries to achieve >> > > > is >> >> > > > the plane tracks as purely straight on a string as possible while >> > > > one >> >> > > > rolls both directions without introducing any yaw. >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> Del >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > > >> From: >> >> > > >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" >> >> > > >> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 2:49 PM >> >> > > >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> > Nat and all you other aerodynamicists, >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > I thought that the rational for "aileron differential" was that >> >> > > > upward deflection causes more drag than downward deflection so to >> >> > > > equalize drag and prevent yaw with aileron deflection, aileron >> >> > > > differential is needed. It seems that you guys are now saying that >> >> > > > ain't so. Please elaborate. >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > George >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > ---- Nat Penton wrote: >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > ============= >> >> > > >> > IMO center hinged or top hinged is OK. With top hinge, to >> > > >> > achieve >> >> > > > equal vertical travel of the trailing edge requires different >> > > > angular >> >> > > > travel, up vs down. The objective is zero aerodynamic differential. >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > Ron I don't think a fairing would prevent separation but, how >> > > >> > are >> >> > > > you able to fair the gap using the top hinge ? Nat >> >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > > >> > From: ronlock at comcast.net >> >> > > >> > To: NSRCA Mailing List >> >> > > >> > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 7:20 AM >> >> > > >> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more - Rolls >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > And while your at it, I'd appreciate some discussion of the >> > > >> > impact >> >> > > > of the top hinge system as seen on Viavat, and Prestige birds - >> > > > (top >> >> > > > hinged, with fairing that eliminates the gap at deflection) >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > Thanks, Ron Lockhart >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > -------------- Original message -------------- >> >> > > >> > From: vicenterc at comcast.net >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > Nat, >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > Could you explain why the differential should be different for >> >> > > > non-center hinged? I understand that the mechanical configuration >> > > > of >> >> > > > non-center hinged requires differential to obtain same travel in >> > > > both >> >> > > > directions. However, the travel up and down should be close to >> > > > equal. >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > Thanks, >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > -- >> >> > > >> > Vicente "Vince" Bortone >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > -------------- Original message -------------- >> >> > > >> > From: "Nat Penton" >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > Tom >> >> > > >> > It's just something that is peculiar to the Southern >> >> > > > Hemisphere. >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > Changing wing incidence will not help. Unless things are really >> >> > > > screwed up , at our roll rates, centrifugal forces are too low to >> >> > > > cause a problem. You want zero differential, aero speaking ( same >> >> > > > up/down if center hinged ). >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > I find the best check is the fast half-roll in the vertical up. >> >> > > > Regards Nat >> >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > > >> > From: Koenig, Tom >> >> > > >> > To: NSRCA Mailing List >> >> > > >> > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 7:24 PM >> >> > > >> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS Questions+more >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > Hi Troy! >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > Thanks for the info. I thought you would be toiling away on >> >> > > > the next developmental stage of these engines!! >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > Hopefully soon, I can find the time to get flying again. I am >> >> > > > looking forward to running this little beast. I am still a little >> >> > > > concerned in keeping it quiet though. >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > Four blade props? I have some of the 18.1 x 12 two bladers >> >> > > > but I just cant see how I'll shut the thing up with these paint >> >> > > > stirrers?? >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > Also-one more question to any of you out there in pattern >> >> > > > land. >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > I have struggled with aileron differential for years. I am >> >> > > > just not happy with the rolls. I have tried various design >> > > > fixes-but >> >> > > > about the only one that seems to work is to get the wing back to >> > > > 0-0 ( >> >> > > > which can be achieved by a few ways, design, mix or thumbs) >> > > > Differential >> >> > > > itself does not seem to work if the wing is POA ( well...it works >> > > > for >> >> > > > half the roll !) >> >> > > >> > Another black magic fix appears to be to run parallel >> >> > > > ailerons-but this only 'sorta' seems to fix it. I like the feel of >> >> > > > equal% chord ailerons however. >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > I am frustrated with it-I like my planes to roll as if they >> >> > > > had a string up its ...........well you know! >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > OK-any 'secrets' I need to know??? Very good elevator work >> >> > > >> > fixes it ( hence my 0-0 comment) >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > Tom >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> > > >> > ---- >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > > >> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> >> > > >> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> >> > > >> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> > > >> > ---------- >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > > >> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> >> > > >> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> >> > > >> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > > >> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> >> > > >> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> >> > > >> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ >> >> > > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> >> > > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> >> > > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ >> >> > > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> >> > > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> >> > > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> > > >> >> > > _______________________________________________ >> >> > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> >> > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> >> > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > Chris >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > --------------------------------- >> >> > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list >> >> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> >> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing >> list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion >> > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
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