[NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI

Wed Jun 18 07:11:05 AKDT 2008

Jim,
My own case only.  I find it difficult to rely on constantly different, non 
pattern oriented callers/coaches.  The snaps and spin issues are really 
difficult to convey to a sport flyer, hell we can't even agree most of the 
time.  The non pattern flyers can help you with centering and sometimes even 
geometry but the finer points of precision aerobatics they just aren't in 
touch with nor really willing to learn and I can't blame them.  They fly to 
have fun, not get aggravated or study rules like they are taking a finals in 
college. It is   very easy to stay in and compete in Pattern when there is a 
"bunch" of like minded pattern flying
buddies practicing together.  When you are on your own, frustration easily 
sets in as it is all too easy to repeat mistakes and have no where to turn 
for advice.  Sorry, words on a forum do not translate to proper stick 
wiggling.  I love the way the planes fly and am building another DZ powered 
nitro sucking 2M guppy, but I find it difficult to improve my skill level, 
especially in AMA Masters going it alone.  Frankly, I think we ( AMA 
pattern ) have too many rules or words around our maneuver descriptions 
which perpetuates this ongoing dialog of maneuver execution, especially when 
it comes to spin entries and snaps.  I wonder what in the world someone was 
thinking when they came up with end box snaps, certainly not the people that 
would have to judge it.  Oh, btw, we as a whole are an aging group, if you 
really think you see things as well now as you did in your 20's and 30's, 
please send me some of what you are smoking.
I really wish SPA had not allowed 4 strokes and "modifications" to the older 
planes, otherwise I'd be all over it.  A person even in the Expert class of 
SPA can get away without a permanent coach/caller and still be very 
competitive. I find it interesting that some of the most competitive SPA 
airframes have in some ways morphed towards today's 2M guppy deluxe'es
Ed M.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Woodward, Jim (US SSA)" <jim.woodward at baesystems.com>
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI

Del,

Why do you feel you need to have a professional caller for precision 
aerobatics?

Thanks,

Jim

________________________________

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Del
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 10:26 AM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI

Thanks Chris...  I appreciate your good wishes

    .. all I can say is,... with the changes in costs to compete and need to 
have a professional caller etc. all make it next to impossible for me to 
compete anymore. Becomes to prohibitive for a casual competitor.

    Del

----- Original Message ----- 

From: chris moon <mailto:cjm767driver at hotmail.com>

To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org

Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 12:19 AM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI

Thanks Del.
We are actually on the same page. My points were directed more
generally than towards anyone who is posting to this topic. I just
wanted to make it clear that personal preferences are not a judging
parameter and that exaggerated elements in order to please someone who
is looking pretty much only for certain elements of a maneuver rather
than the whole is also wrong. Also, I read posts where people clearly
don't understand the difference between aircraft pitch attitude and
angle of attack. Two very different things. I see time and again
people (yes, me too) get whacked for not showing some silly 40 degree
nose up attitude in order to "prove" the plane stalled before beginning
a spin. A wing of course is flown by angle of attack and a plane can be
at a high angle of attack yet a "low" nose high attitude to the ground.
So, a high angle of attack and a true stall can occur at a relatively
low nose high attitude relative to the ground but how often is it
downgraded or zeroed because the judge does not know the difference
between the two? All of the time. I see and hear it all of the time.
"He could not have stalled because the nose was not high enough" Wrong,
wrong, wrong.

This link has some basic info for those who want to read even more:
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/q0165.shtml

I also agree that judging is way better than before in just about every
respect. We can always make it better of course and these discussions
make some mad and some frustrated but enlighten others. If one does not
truly understand basic aerodynamics, then they cannot become a good
judge. The concepts of pitch attitude and angle of attack are key to
understanding stalls and snaps so they are key things that we all must
understand. Understanding the difference makes judging these maneuvers
so much easier.

AMA vs. FAI I also agree completely about having to change gears when
judging these classes back to back at a contest. Even trying to keep
the rules straight for the 2 types is difficult at best.

I hope as well as others that you can continue participating in pattern
with us! We need everyone.

Chris

Del wrote:
> Chris...
> Please!!! don't take this personally directed at/ _you_/ or any _one
> individual_. The list is a great medium to have intellectually
> stimulating discussion that often is educational.
> Judging is an arbitrary art. Do we all have the same calibrated
> eyeball? No.. But all judges should be seeing and judging the same
> maneuver with similar downgrades. Are all downgrades going to be
> identical.. Not realistically ~ No.. Is that the best we can do..
> possibly..? The NSRCA has worked hard with many volunteers over the
> years trying to enlighten and improve the caliber of judging and it is
> much better than it was 20 years ago..
> At this stage of evolution when the judges are reduced to nit picking
> shows how well the judging has improved for the overall big picture.
> Is it realistic to stop the nitpicking.. It is part of the beast we
> enjoy to participate in.. Some terminology in the judging guide could
> be tweaked and improved on for those that like to over analyze. The
> snap by its very nature if often judged just on the merits of the snap
> itself which no judge should ever do. Entry and exit are also worthy
> of their focus. That snap in some cases happens in less than 1 sec. It
> is always going to have disparity in the scores just based on the fact
> not all eyes see and recognize all the details they need to catch in
> that sec. let alone feeling burnout or watery eyes etc. that make a
> judge miss something.
> It is hard to expect all judges to shift gears from FAI to AMA and
> back again during the same day or same contest. Dwindling numbers make
> that a reality.
> I will always contend that your mission as a pattern competitor is to
> show the judges to the best of your ability what the rule books
> describes. As a pilot if you try to change your flying to what one
> given judge expects your are hurting yourself and your overall
> performance. I guess that is why they still insist on throwing out
> some judges scores at the major competitions. Wish it weren't so but
> that is also part of the process.
> I personally didn't read anyone saying they were judging by the way
> they like it.. I may have missed some posts but what I read, some were
> showing, for clarification, that some statements being made, where in
> error and just trying to clarify what the specific rule actually
> states... Not what someone interprets..
> I have always had an issues in FAI judging when 2 pilots flies
> identical maneuvers and one flies consistently 5 degrees off in
> track/heading and the other flies on the rail do they both deserve a
> 10 if all elements in the maneuver have been done per the rules? Some
> argue that 1 point / 15 is applied before they get to a 15º error..
> others read it to mean that your don't give a down grade till at least
> 15º of track have been shown. Thankfully in AMA we have the 1/2 points
> to work with.
> So yes you are right that no judge is to judge based on what they
> prefer except when it comes to style and presentation ~ the lower
> criteria for downgrades.
> ~~~ Who gets the better score...? Dean Pappas once told us that the
> one that hides their corrections the best. That alone is another art
> /subject. So when judging ~~ do you best to be consistent and fair to
> all.. When flying ~~ do your best to show the judges you do know how
> to fly the maneuvers without any detectable errors. Learn to hide your
> corrections.
> I sincerely hoped I helped Chris. Feel free to comment on or off list
> as you feel apropos. I still love the sport and what it has to offer
> but am having to give it up ~~ possibly forever.. only time can tell..
> Del
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* chris moon
> *To:* nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 17, 2008 12:15 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI
>
> Is it not the pilot's responsibility to simply fly the maneuver as
> depicted? Why then must they exaggerate a portion to placate a judge
> who wants to see it their way? Our judging training materials
> distinctly say not to downgrade just because the maneuver is not done
> the way you like. The example was one pilot making sharp corners in a
> square loop vs another making larger more rounded corner. Both are
> correct and should be judged identically but can anyone argue that
> one
> way should be downgraded because it was not the way "you like it"
> Stalls, snaps and spins are no different. Not the way I like it = so
> what. If it is done correctly it is always a 10. I would think
> that if
> the other judges are consistently giving "normal" scores and I am
> zeroing or giving some nominal score, that there has to be an issue
> going on. Am I the only one who is consistently right in my thinking
> and everyone else is all wrong? Or, could it be the other way around?
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> Del wrote:
> > It is the "PILOTS" responsibility to fly the maneuver as
> described per
> > the rules. If said pilots chooses to not make it obvious or
> > discernable to the judge then enjoy the score you should be awarded.
> > Del
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* chris moon
> > *To:* nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> >
> > *Sent:* Monday, June 16, 2008 5:11 PM
> > *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI
> >
> > George - you have made an excellent point in that the interval
> may by
> > "minuscule" and not overly noticeable to everyone. It is absolutely
> > wrong for some to claim that you must "show" them as judge an
> > exaggerated pitch up just to satisfy a personal interpretation
> of the
> > maneuver. Just as is is absolutely wrong for those judges to demand
> > another overly exaggerated pitch up as a stall entry to a spin
> > maneuver. It is never the job of the participant to exaggerate a
> > portion of a maneuver just to prove it exists, therefore your
> > usage of
> > the term "minuscule" in terms of the time interval between pitch and
> > rotation is something we need to keep in mind.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > george w. kennie wrote:
> >> My lip is becoming too painful from biting it, so I think I'm
> > going to
> >> stick my nose in here somewhere.
> >> I think I'm with Jon on this one.
> >> My logic, however flawed, tells me that if I am flying my plane
> >> straight and level and I input rudder, no matter how much, there
> > is no
> >> way that this input will induce a stall to the airframe.
> > Therefore, it
> >> seems to me, that the necessary force required to stall the main
> >> lifting surface must come from the elevator. It would further
> > seem to
> >> me that this input must, by it's very nature produce a pitching
> >> attitude to the fuselage whether positive or negative. So I
> > would have
> >> to conclude that the attitude "break" referenced by the rule can
> > only
> >> refer to a "pitch" break and would be impossible to confuse
> with an
> >> attitude change induced by the rudder seeing that the required
> > result
> >> is to stall the main wing.
> >> And yes Jon, I agree that it would be necessary to lead with the
> >> elevator in order to bring about this attitude change before
> > rotation
> >> is started, however miniscule the interval might be.
> >> Of course I'm still open to hearing other interpretations and
> their
> >> validations as these observations are strictly opinions.
> >> G.
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> *From:* Jon Lowe
> >> *To:* nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> >>
> >> *Sent:* Monday, June 16, 2008 2:10 PM
> >> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI
> >>
> >> Jim,
> >>
> >> I have no clue how you think all three axes can be initiated at
> >> the same time. You keep forgetting the part of the RULE, quoted
> >> verbatim below, that says the "fuselage break and separation from
> >> the flight path" must happen "BEFORE THE ROTATION IS STARTED". I'm
> >> NOT equating fueselage break to pitch break, it could break in
> >> pitch and/or yaw, if it doesn't start rotation at the same time.
> >> If you initiate all three axis at the same time, rotation WILL
> >> start at the same instant, and that is specifically NOT permitted.
> >> READ THE RULE! The judge MUST determine if the fuselage broke and
> >> separated from the flight path first, BEFORE the rotation started.
> >> If it didn't, he MUST severely downgrade.
> >>
> >>
> >> Jon Lowe
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> Klipped 4 reposting
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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