[NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI
Dave
DaveL322 at comcast.net
Mon Jun 16 15:33:05 AKDT 2008
"Detectable" pitch departure which results in offset from the line does not
mean the maneuver is not a 10. A 10 is a maneuver which is absent of
defects large enough to downgrade to less than a 10.
Draw a 400' straight line. Now put a 2' displacement in the middle of the
line and connect the beginning and end of the line.....what is the number of
degrees the line has changed? Actual number is totally rhetorical....point
is the line has not deviated enough in terms of 1 point per 15 degrees to
warrant a downgrade.
Regards,
Dave Lockhart
-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Woodward, Jim
(US SSA)
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 3:05 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI
Jon,
I'm not sure if you are serious or not. If a pilot is showing you such a
"detectable" pitch departure first, they are actually flying "off" the line
which is its own downgrade prior to the snap, subject to the 1 point per 15
degree rule for line deviation. The nose of the plane moving in a conical
fashion is evidence of pitch departure. You do not have to fly off the line
to have that. You can input all 3 at the same time and still achieve the
highest score all things considered.
Thanks,
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
shinden1 at cox.net
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 2:39 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI
Assuming your airplane c/g is set correctly ,,
there will be a displacement during the Snap ,, but it will enter and exit
,,on the same line I.E.,,Pitch and Yaw will happen at the same time ..you
will get a cone at the tail ,,,the airplane will displace during the input .
and recovery will be a solid lock exit
if the airplane is "not stalled" during the snap ,,usually because your
tail heavy,,,the airplane will exit on a different line than it entered,,
Yaw ,and or Pitch
this includes up,down and 45`s,and
If you have to lead with any input ,,,your tail heavy
I hate to see the scores issued on the 1.5 knife snap :)
no judge will know what inputs are being applied .
If the airplane is tail heavy you don`t need elevator ,,, {most are not
using this input} But I bet you can`t tell me who.
The harder we try to define and rewrite the rules ,,,the easier it will be
for guys Like Jason to receive the 10`s
mortals like us will not be able to complete the definition.
and Andrew, Chip and Jason will laugh all the way to the top 4
Bryan
---- Jon Lowe <jonlowe at aol.com> wrote:
> Jim,
>
> I have no clue how you think all three axes can be initiated at the same
time. You keep forgetting the part of the RULE, quoted verbatim below,
that says the "fuselage break and separation from the flight path" must
happen "BEFORE THE ROTATION IS STARTED". I'm NOT equating fueselage break
to pitch break, it could break in pitch and/or yaw, if it doesn't start
rotation at the same time. If you initiate all three axis at the same time,
rotation WILL start at the same instant, and that is specifically NOT
permitted. READ THE RULE! The judge MUST determine if the fuselage broke
and separated from the flight path first, BEFORE the rotation started. If
it didn't, he MUST severely downgrade.
>
>
>
> Jon Lowe
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <jim.woodward at baesystems.com>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 12:37 pm
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI
>
>
>
>
> Jon,
>
>
>
> I'm shocked - you are totally wrong here. Do not equate "fuselage" to
"pitch" in the reading of this definition. As a judge you should NOT apply
a "pitch-assessment" pass/fail criteria to judging FAI snap rolls. It is
completely rejected. The plane and therefore "fuselage" must autorotate
about the flight axis, which means that the nose and tail of the plane will
move in a conical fashion. The pilot can initiate with all 3 axis at one
time.
>
>
>
> It is the responsibility of the judge to determine if autorotation
occurred, and not determine how or in what order the pilot did it.
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Jon Lowe
> Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 1:21 PM
> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI
>
>
>
>
> You are correct, as long as there is no roll induced at the same instant.
I overlooked that possibility. Not sure how rudder alone will induce the
"supposed to be in a stalled condition" though!! There are many attitudes
(e.g. 45 down on center) where a judge could not likely see a rudder
departure alone first, and thus conclude that departure did not occur before
the roll departure started. And a judge might also not see a pitch
departure first on a end box upline snap, but he could see rudder first. It
is VERY clear that simultaneous roll with either or both of the other axes
departures is NOT allowed as others have tried to state here. I did say
that pitch and yaw departure could happen simutaneously, in my original
post, as long as roll doesn't occur at the same time.
>
>
> Jon Lowe
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: JShulman <jshulman at cfl.rr.com>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:22 am
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI
>
>
>
> Jon,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I don't see where it says pitch break? Rudder first will show attitude
break and separation from the flight path. So if one uses rudder and
elevator first this is also correct.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Jason
> www.jasonshulman.com
> www.shulmanaviation.com
> www.composite-arf.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Jon Lowe
> Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 12:11 PM
> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI
>
> I suggest people re-read the definition ofsnap-rolls from the FAI sporting
code. I did a few minutes ago. Here it is:
>
> "5B.7.5. SNAP-ROLLS
>
> A snap-roll (or flick roll/rudder roll) is a rapid autorotative roll where
the model aircraft is in a stalled
>
> attitude, with a continuous high angle of attack
>
> Snap-rolls have the same judging criteria as axial rolls as far as start
and stop of the rotation, and
>
> constant flight path through the manoeuvre is concerned.
>
> At the start of a snap-roll, the fuselage attitude must show a definite
break and separation from the
>
> flight path, before the rotation is started, since the model aircraft is
supposed to be in a stalled
>
> condition throughout the manoeuvre, If the stall/break does not occur and
the model aircraft barrelrolls
>
> around, the manoeuvre must be severely downgraded (more than 5 points).
Similarly, axial
>
> rolls disguised as snap-rolls must be severely downgraded (more than 5
points).
>
> Snap-rolls can be flown both positive and negative, and the same criteria
apply. The attitude
>
> (positive or negative) is at the competitor's discretion. If the model
aircraft returns to an unstalled
>
> condition during the snap-roll, the manoeuvre is severely downgraded using
the 1 point/15 degree
>
> rule."
>
>
> Note that "the fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation
from the flight path, before the rotation is started..." That means that
simultaneous pitch and rotation is specifically NOT permitted. I would
interpret it as meaning that pitch and yaw could theoretically happen
simultaneously, as long as no roll is involved. Sorry Matt, the rules as
written do NOT allow actuation in all three axes simultaneously. The rule
also states that a constant flight path has to be maintained.
>
> Let's face it, the only way to prevent severe downgrading from EVERY
judge, not just some judges, is to have a pitch break first. Takes any
question away.
>
>
> Jon Lowe
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rcmaster199 at aol.com
> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:46 am
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI
>
>
> A "Flick" and a "Snap" roll are the same roll in full scale aerobatics
parlance and reference material.
>
> Do these mean the same thing in model aerobatics? In my view, they do
>
> The latest FAI regs allow actuation of the three main axes
simultaneously...that is, the regs don't specifically differentiate "Pitch
Break" from other deviations. I don't think they specifically require that
the model must rotate about it's flight path either, I don't believe
(.....plane must rotate in a conical fashion about the fight axis....). The
model would probably present the best if that's done, so pilots may want to
consider that when executing the maneuver.
>
> In my take, a rapid Pitch is desired to preload the wing. Contrary to
popular belief, both panels dot not have to stall for a snap to occur. Quite
the opposite. Upon rudder deflection, the port panel will practically stall
(lift much much less than the other panel) but the starboard panel must be
lifting to create the autorotation. If both panels stall, the model will
fall out of the sky for a distance and a snap would not occur at the correct
moment in time
>
> MattK
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <jim.woodward at baesystems.com>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 8:47 am
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI
>
> Guys,
>
> I thought the FAI changes explicitly allowed flick rolls? The rule
> reads, "... fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation
> from the flight path."
>
> It does not say, "MUST SHOW PITCH BREAK." Please DO NOT ERROUNIOUSLY
> APPLY A PASS/FAIL MAJOR DEDUCTION initial assessment to the snap roll.
> Watch the whole maneuver then render your score.
>
> A break and separation from the flight path simply means that the nose
> and tail of the plane must rotate in a conical fashion about the fight
> axis. Yaw, roll, and pitch can all break at the same moment if that is
> how the pilot does it.
>
> Hey :) some really handsome smart guy wrote some stuff at this link
> below about snap rolls to help clarify how they are done in IMAC.
>
> http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=77
>
> thanks,
> Jim
>
>
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