[NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI
James Oddino
joddino at socal.rr.com
Mon Jun 16 10:36:49 AKDT 2008
That should have said: lags the rudder and elevator.
On Jun 16, 2008, at 11:27 AM, John Pavlick wrote:
> Aha! I didn't think of that (guess that's why I'm still flying
> Advanced). Those silly things may prove to be useful after all. :)
>
> John Pavlick
>
> James Oddino <joddino at socal.rr.com> wrote:
> On the 14MZ the sticks still work when you apply the snap switch.
> Thus one can pull the elevator before hitting the snap switch and
> more importantly can put in some down elevator before releasing the
> switch. In addition you can slow down the aileron in and out so it
> kind of lags the rudder and aileron and slow down the rudder out so
> it will help correct the heading on a positive one and a half.
>
> Jim O
> On Jun 16, 2008, at 10:35 AM, John Pavlick wrote:
>> So then... how can you expect to score a perfect 10 if you use snap
>> roll switches? :)
>>
>> John Pavlick
>>
>> Jon Lowe <jonlowe at aol.com> wrote:
>> You are correct, as long as there is no roll induced at the same
>> instant. I overlooked that possibility. Not sure how rudder alone
>> will induce the "supposed to be in a stalled condition" though!!
>> There are many attitudes (e.g. 45 down on center) where a judge
>> could not likely see a rudder departure alone first, and thus
>> conclude that departure did not occur before the roll departure
>> started. And a judge might also not see a pitch departure first on
>> a end box upline snap, but he could see rudder first. It is VERY
>> clear that simultaneous roll with either or both of the other axes
>> departures is NOT allowed as others have tried to state here. I
>> did say that pitch and yaw departure could happen simutaneously, in
>> my original post, as long as roll doesn't occur at the same time.
>>
>> Jon Lowe
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: JShulman <jshulman at cfl.rr.com>
>> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:22 am
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI
>>
>> Jon,
>>
>> I don't see where it says pitch break? Rudder first will show
>> attitude break and separation from the flight path. So if one uses
>> rudder and elevator first this is also correct.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jason
>> www.jasonshulman.com
>> www.shulmanaviation.com
>> www.composite-arf.com
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> ]On Behalf Of Jon Lowe
>> Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 12:11 PM
>> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI
>>
>> I suggest people re-read the definition ofsnap-rolls from the FAI
>> sporting code. I did a few minutes ago. Here it is:
>>
>> "5B.7.5. SNAP-ROLLS
>> A snap-roll (or flick roll/rudder roll) is a rapid autorotative
>> roll where the model aircraft is in a stalled
>> attitude, with a continuous high angle of attack
>> Snap-rolls have the same judging criteria as axial rolls as far as
>> start and stop of the rotation, and
>> constant flight path through the manoeuvre is concerned.
>> At the start of a snap-roll, the fuselage attitude must show a
>> definite break and separation from the
>> flight path, before the rotation is started, since the model
>> aircraft is supposed to be in a stalled
>> condition throughout the manoeuvre, If the stall/break does not
>> occur and the model aircraft barrelrolls
>> around, the manoeuvre must be severely downgraded (more than 5
>> points). Similarly, axial
>> rolls disguised as snap-rolls must be severely downgraded (more
>> than 5 points).
>> Snap-rolls can be flown both positive and negative, and the same
>> criteria apply. The attitude
>> (positive or negative) is at the competitor’s discretion. If the
>> model aircraft returns to an unstalled
>> condition during the snap-roll, the manoeuvre is severely
>> downgraded using the 1 point/15 degree
>> rule."
>>
>> Note that "the fuselage attitude must show a definite break and
>> separation from the flight path, before the rotation is
>> started..." That means that simultaneous pitch and rotation is
>> specifically NOT permitted. I would interpret it as meaning that
>> pitch and yaw could theoretically happen simultaneously, as long as
>> no roll is involved. Sorry Matt, the rules as written do NOT allow
>> actuation in all three axes simultaneously. The rule also states
>> that a constant flight path has to be maintained.
>>
>> Let's face it, the only way to prevent severe downgrading from
>> EVERY judge, not just some judges, is to have a pitch break first.
>> Takes any question away.
>>
>> Jon Lowe
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: rcmaster199 at aol.com
>> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:46 am
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI
>>
>> A "Flick" and a "Snap" roll are the same roll in full scale
>> aerobatics parlance and reference material.
>>
>> Do these mean the same thing in model aerobatics? In my view, they do
>>
>> The latest FAI regs allow actuation of the three main axes
>> simultaneously...that is, the regs don't specifically differentiate
>> "Pitch Break" from other deviations. I don't think they
>> specifically require that the model must rotate about it's flight
>> path either, I don't believe (.....plane must rotate in a conical
>> fashion about the fight axis....). The model would probably present
>> the best if that's done, so pilots may want to consider that when
>> executing the maneuver.
>>
>> In my take, a rapid Pitch is desired to preload the wing. Contrary
>> to popular belief, both panels dot not have to stall for a snap to
>> occur. Quite the opposite. Upon rudder deflection, the port panel
>> will practically stall (lift much much less than the other panel)
>> but the starboard panel must be lifting to create the autorotation.
>> If both panels stall, the model will fall out of the sky for a
>> distance and a snap would not occur at the correct moment in time
>>
>> MattK
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <jim.woodward at baesystems.com>
>> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 8:47 am
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI
>>
>> Guys,
>>
>> I thought the FAI changes explicitly allowed flick rolls? The rule
>> reads, "... fuselage attitude must show a definite break and
>> separation
>> from the flight path."
>>
>> It does not say, "MUST SHOW PITCH BREAK." Please DO NOT ERROUNIOUSLY
>> APPLY A PASS/FAIL MAJOR DEDUCTION initial assessment to the snap
>> roll.
>> Watch the whole maneuver then render your score.
>>
>> A break and separation from the flight path simply means that the
>> nose
>> and tail of the plane must rotate in a conical fashion about the
>> fight
>> axis. Yaw, roll, and pitch can all break at the same moment if that
>> is
>> how the pilot does it.
>>
>> Hey :) some really handsome smart guy wrote some stuff at this link
>> below about snap rolls to help clarify how they are done in IMAC.
>>
>> http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=77
>>
>> thanks,
>> Jim
>>
>>
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